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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-06-18

---Logopened Sat Jun 18 00:00:08 2016
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03:04-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.6.1-RC1, 1.6.0 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | if this channel is really spammy
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03:27<@peter1138>hmm, this mouse pointer behaviour is bugging me :S
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03:37<@Alberth>hi hi
04:07<Wolf01>meh, I'm stupid, I reinstalled the apps on my phone so I lost all the related data
04:31<@Alberth>you seem to be doing a lot of installing stuff
04:32<@Alberth>or is it just now?
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04:32<Wolf01>I replaced the SD card yesterday
04:33<Wolf01>and the phone said "there's a problem with the app, reinstall it"
04:33<Wolf01>for all the apps I installed in the SD
04:34<Wolf01>the problem is that if put back the old SD, it sees the apps I didn't reinstall, but not the reinstalled ones
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04:35<Wolf01>and in the new SD it sees the reinstalled ones but not the old ones
04:36<Wolf01>I should have moved all the apps in the internal memory instead of copying them
04:42<@Alberth>ugh, pseudo-smart software :(
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05:44<Wolf01>bsod copying a file to the SD O_o
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05:54<Wolf01>nice, the sd seem to be TFU
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05:56<Wolf01>explorer crashed
05:56<Wolf01>teracopy hanged
06:01<Wolf01>forced reboot...
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06:22<Wolf01>mmmh, a problem with the usb hub root now :|
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06:52<Samu>Wormnest: what do you think of that score now
06:52<Samu>i added 2 more columns
06:55<Samu>gelignAIte wins the efficiency column, and that is odd
06:55<Samu>but I don't know of a better formula
06:56<Samu>formula is: best income of the last 2 years
06:56<Samu>formula is: best income of the last 2 years / total number of road pieces
06:56<frosch123>hmm, i guess you do not need to barrel up oil anymore, when you chain of refineries arrived at the next oilfield
06:59<@Rubidium>Samu: that reminds me of a trick by some AIs to build bridges instead of road pieces because the bridge was cheaper
06:59<@Rubidium>(and the vehicles weren't fast enough yet to require a faster bridge)
07:02<Samu>hmm how are bridges and tunnels counted towards road pieces?
07:03<@Alberth>start with empty world, check road pieces, build bridge, check road pieces, build tunnel, check road pieces
07:05<Samu>oh wow
07:05<Samu>tunnel entrance, 8 road pieces
07:06<Samu>that's odd
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07:06<Samu>8 pieces per each tunnel and bridge section
07:07<Samu>i thought it would be 2
07:08<@Rubidium>tunnels are generally more expensive to maintain
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07:22<Wormnest>Samu: I would add a description of what efficiency is to the forum post since that is not obvious in itself
07:23<Wormnest>Besides that maybe change efficiency to also take into account number of road stations relative to number of vehicles?
07:24<Wormnest>Although then you might favor ai´s that make longer routes relative to those that favor more shorter routes
07:29<Samu>how do I make the relation between road stations, number of vehicles, income and road pieces in a single formula :P
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07:31<Samu>number of vehicles / number of road stations
07:31<Samu>let me see what this results in
07:33<Wormnest>The problem with that can be ofcourse that ai´s that completely fill up the roads with vehicles get a high score
07:33<Wormnest>which isn´t very efficient
07:35<Samu>nocab averages 38 rvs per station
07:35<Samu>oops mogulai*
07:36<Samu>NoCAB is strange
07:36<Samu>many unused stations
07:38<Samu>i don't really know what this score shows
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07:41<Samu>cluelessplus got 356/356 stations served
07:42<Samu>100% served
07:43<Samu>(total number of vehicles / total number of stations) * (number of stations served / total number of stations) = ???
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08:01<Wormnest>In the end it all depends on what you define as efficient
08:02<Wormnest>While most ai´s will just try to get the highest profits
08:02<Samu>that formula is giving a very bad result to nocab
08:02<Samu>and giving a very huge result for mogul
08:02<Samu>I don't think this accounts for anything
08:03<Wormnest>Well nocab is careless with road pieces and stations
08:03<Samu>still calculating, wonder what result terron gets
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08:08<Samu>PAXLink beats NoCAB for worst result
08:10<Samu>7.506 for terron, not the highest score, but also not the lowest
08:12<Samu>best score: 36.095 for mogul
08:12<Samu>worst score: 1.079 for PAXLink
08:13<Samu>seems like it favours least number of serviced stations over very long distances with the most road vehicles used
08:14<Samu>or maybe not
08:14<Samu>nocab also does that
08:14<@Alberth>this is how you can prove anything with statistics
08:14<Samu>oh, nocab actually serves a huge number of stations
08:14<Samu>and has an even huger number of stations not being served
08:17<Samu>RoadAI got 2nd best score, 14.360, CluelessPlus 3rd best score, 14.042
08:17<Samu>let me see their games
08:18*Rubidium wonders how much rail one is going to replace when it takes 48 hours (busy bit of track closed for 48 hours for unscheduled maintenance since Friday afternoon)
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08:23<Samu>i can't see any relationship by just looking at their stations, seems like the formula makes no sense
08:25<Wolf01>I bet this will be a hard treasure hunt... the game data aren't on the dedicated folder
08:26<Samu>roadai is pure buses
08:26<Samu>clueless plus if both buses and industries
08:26<Samu>mogul is pure industries
08:27<Samu>what they have in common is the number of vehicles per stations
08:27<Samu>but that's just it
08:27<Samu>their construction methods differ a lot
08:28<Samu>roadai distances aren't even that large as the others
08:30<Samu>seems like roadai would be a good cargodist AI
08:30<Samu>it makes different connections by reusing the same stations
08:31<Samu>mogul is simple greedy point to point
08:31<Samu>with the hugest distances from the 3
08:32<Samu>no reusing of stations for other connections, just a mass number of vehicles for each connection, like 44, 37 and so
08:32<Samu>well, whatever, the formula doesn't seem to prove anything
08:33<Samu>seems more like a "station reuse" formula rather than an efficiency formula
08:34<Samu>not even reuse, ehm... mogul doesn't reuse
08:35<Samu>i dunno
08:35<Samu>i give up
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08:47<Samu>back to trains testing
08:48<Samu>denver & rio grande is doing something stupid
08:48<Samu>there are no more diesel engines
08:48<Samu>since he can't replace the trains, he's just selling those turner turbos as they get old, no replacement
08:49<Samu>his profit graph is slowly diminishing
08:49<Samu>why don't he convert to maglev
08:49<Samu>or build as maglev
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08:50<Samu>MailAI must be stuck ever since electrified rail became available, that's since monorail
08:50<Samu>his log is repeating the same thing everytime
08:51<Samu>i'm testing on sub-arctic, there's no "electrified railway" at least, but he seems to be dealing with this the wrong way
08:52<Samu>there's a jump directly from diesel railway to monorail, which is electrified
08:53<Samu>AIAI server has attracted 4 human companies
08:54<Samu>he's beating them
08:55<Samu>FastPTPAI also attracted some human players, he's still beating them yet, but... he's not that great past the early game
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10:45<Wolf01>I bet tomorrow I'll make some of my friends stunned, I'll bring my lego slizers collection to the exposition :P
11:01<andythenorth>suddenly game is not dying
11:01<andythenorth>not newgrf, anyway
11:01<andythenorth>world and dog is making things
11:28<andythenorth>lo V453000
11:30<Wolf01> andy, electric trucks!
11:30<Wolf01>hi V
11:34<V453000>considering to buy a macbook
11:34<V453000>had enough of win10 and moderately shitty laptop
11:35<Wolf01>buy a good laptop at half the price of a shitty macbook
11:35<@Alberth>install Linux :)
11:36<Wolf01>and use gimp?
11:36<@Alberth>blender, more likely
11:37<Wolf01>(not that gimp is a shitty software, it's just difficult to use as hell)
11:37<@Alberth>nah, you haven't tried blender yet, then :p
11:37<Wolf01>I tried blender once
11:37<Wolf01>I think I removed any memory about it
11:38<Wolf01>now I use only sketchup
11:38<@Alberth>it's probably a problem with professional software, it's impossible to use for non-professionals
11:46<V453000>yeah I just converted dollars to czk
11:46<V453000>thing is I don't need performance when I am on the fly
11:46<V453000>but a laptop with normal disk and windows shit, is almost unusable
11:46<V453000>it feels like it is 15 years old
11:46<V453000>linux is not an option
11:47<V453000>due to adobe and shit
11:47<@Alberth>then the choice is simplez
11:48<V453000>well normal laptops with SSDs aren't exactly cheap either
11:48<Wolf01>my sister purchased a laptop with win10 and ssd for just 1100€ to work as colourist... and play games
11:48<andythenorth>V453000 you know my opinion :P
11:48<V453000>for 1100 euros I can have a 13 inch macbook air
11:48<andythenorth>yes and you would regret it
11:48<andythenorth>macbook air is like buying a calculator
11:48<andythenorth>they are underpowered PoS
11:49<andythenorth>joke computer
11:49<V453000>guess that is exactly what I needed to hear :P
11:49<andythenorth>it’s a poser’s device
11:49<Wolf01>my lumia 950xl is better, at least I can play minecraft
11:49<andythenorth>why the Macbook Air exists, I do not know
11:49<@Alberth>for those posers
11:49<V453000>so if air is trash, are any of the others better andythenorth ?
11:49<andythenorth>if you want an underpowered lightweight computer, buy the 12” macbook
11:50<andythenorth>otherwise buy a proper Macbook Pro, that is a proper computer
11:50<V453000>I don't want to spend that much on it probably, but the lowest Pro would come in question
11:51<andythenorth>I use mine for work, and usually they last 1-2 years
11:51<V453000>dualcore 1,1 ghz sounds like a typo
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11:51<andythenorth>mine costs me £2.19 per day if it lasts 2 years
11:51<andythenorth>I spend that much on coffee
11:52<V453000>XD point
11:52<@Alberth>so no more coffee for andy :)
11:52<andythenorth>when I get a new one the old one is sold, and macs usually sell used in uk for ~30% of new cost
11:52<andythenorth>sometimes more
11:53<andythenorth>so actually more like £1.40 / day
11:53<V453000>not so bad
11:54<andythenorth>do you need a lot of storage?
11:54<andythenorth>Apple sell SSDs *expensively* (of course)
11:54<V453000>storage is what desktop is for :)
11:55<V453000>does it run factorio? :D
11:55<andythenorth>I would get something like this
11:55<andythenorth>and bump to 16GB
11:55<andythenorth>CPU is fine
11:56<andythenorth>mine is about equivalent, mostly not slow
11:56<V453000>that is what I am looking at
11:57<andythenorth>lightweight, solid, quick, battery life insane compared to my last one
11:57<V453000>how does it handle overheating when under load for a few hours?
11:57<V453000>cause I feel like every single laptop I had, had huge issues with that
11:57<andythenorth>it gets hot, if that’s what you mean
11:58<andythenorth>like, you wouldn’t want it on bare skin
11:58<V453000>normal then :D is that the reason for why it lasts "just 2 years"?
11:58<andythenorth>no, it’s just there’s usually a new one
11:58<andythenorth>so I scrap it
11:58<andythenorth>‘scrap’ = sell
11:59<V453000>I get it
11:59<andythenorth>this one dates from 2013 or so
11:59<V453000>I will consider it
11:59<V453000>it is a lot still
12:00<Wolf01>the only reason for me to purchase a mac is because I might need to compile apps for iOS
12:00<V453000>might just wait until current laptop finally melts
12:00<andythenorth>FWIW I have always had the expected Apple level of service
12:00<andythenorth>I know people who haven’t, I know a lot of mac users, and some get lemons and Apple don’t always do the right thing
12:01<andythenorth>but I have owned probably 20 macs now, and the company has owned maybe over 100
12:01<andythenorth>probably more tbh
12:01<andythenorth>never had a lemon or a problem Apple refused to fix
12:02*andythenorth will now change subject to trucks :P
12:03<V453000>I will consider it, but definitely not right now
12:04<V453000>is shitload of money for a vacation / internet computer
12:05<V453000>will probably rather invest it into some nice extra car stuff later on
12:12<V453000>might just slap some SSD into the current laptop and see how it fucks
12:13<V453000>I would expect a 500 euro laptop to work somewhat ok
12:13<V453000>but it's a nightmare
12:14<Wolf01>V453000, about the rocket, what about use it for express delivery? you could make 200 silos for 200 different items and load them up like trains, then request a parachuted payload of stuff from every remote place of the map where you are
12:15<V453000>sounds meh
12:15<Wolf01>it will cost you a lot just to receive a bunch of rails XD
12:16<V453000>but controlling the coordinates with combinators would be fun ... I would like something less "space rocket"though, more surface ish :P
12:17<frosch123>use the rocket to shoot mirrors into orbit
12:17<frosch123>the more mirrors, the less night
12:19<Samu>number of recently serviced-stations is misleading
12:20<Wolf01>btw, radar satellite and ion cannon satellite would really be a good choice
12:20<Samu>if the station is both lorry and bus, and i only service a bus, it still counts as 2 stations
12:21<Samu>counts that i serviced both
12:21<frosch123>Wolf01: isn't the "lore" of "ion cannons" that they only work against machinery?
12:21<Samu>is this correct? i only serviced the bus part of the station
12:22<Wolf01>nah, they blew up the Temple of Nod and Kane with the ion cannon
12:23<Samu>look at the tooltip, then look at the orders, i've only serviced 2 stations, but it counts 4
12:23<frosch123>maybe it needs a laser drill like in those sc2 missions
12:24<Wolf01>the only thing I never understood it was on RA2 when you had tesla troopers which were shielded against the electricity... and they where killed by enemy tesla coils too
12:25<Samu>the airport is not serviced at the moment
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12:28<Samu>does anyone have origina ttd at hand?
12:28<Samu>how does it count there?
12:28<Samu>or there is no detailed info?
12:30<Samu>is the counter bugged or is it working as intended? it seems bugged for me
12:33<@Alberth>does original ttd even have detailed performance? looks a bit unlikely
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12:35<Samu>i dont remember
12:36<Samu>if the counter is counting differently than I think, then i probably have some skewed results in the AI score test
12:37<@Alberth>it's all arbitrary numbers anyway :)
12:38<@Alberth>if the stations are all pretty much the same, the ratio isn't that far off
12:40<Samu>maybe i'm misinterpreting the tooltip?
12:41<Samu>it doesn't seem right anyway
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12:42<@Alberth>tooltip seems to use "station" in two different meanings, to me
12:52<Samu>seems wrong in my opinion, it is artificially inflating the performance of a company
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12:54<@Alberth>there is no objective notion for "performance", imho
12:54<Samu>(and skewing my results)
12:54<@Alberth>the concept is too generic
12:54<@Rubidium>it's like asking what the best car is
12:55<@Rubidium>without exactly defining what "best" is, there is no way of saying
13:02<@Alberth>Am I right in thinking that fileio.* is low-level file io, fios_gui.cpp is the gui for file operations, and fios.* is for everything in-between?
13:02<@Alberth>Trying to add a scenario tar file format, but I consistently fail
13:03<@Alberth>there seems something wrong with fios.* but I can't put my finger on it
13:06<Samu>hi glx, did you find a way to fix yesterday's redirector stuff?:o
13:06<+glx>no, it seems MS broke stuff
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13:13<Samu>the first train AI is reaching 2051
13:16<frosch123>Alberth: look a the console commands for browsing the filesystem
13:17<frosch123>and then open the "load game" window in parallel
13:17<frosch123>iirc that shows a lot of things that are "wrong" :p
13:18<frosch123>the fios stuff is quite state-ful
13:18<frosch123>in places thate are usually not
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13:29<Samu>FastPTPAI reached 2051!
13:30<Samu>next 2 are MailAI and AdmiralAI, nearly finishing at the same time
13:31<Samu>only 23 days separating each other
13:31<Samu>once again AdmiralAI surprises me how it effectively uses CPU
13:31<Samu>and while having 2100+ trains
13:35<andythenorth>in other news
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13:49<Samu>Denver & Rio Grande finished
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13:52<Samu>the last 10 years for Denver & Rio Grande was bad
13:53<Samu>it has quite some bugs
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14:15<@Alberth>frosch123: ugh, indeed
14:15<@Alberth>all too old and just extended locally
14:21<@Rubidium>andythenorth: how "fast" is "fast" in that clip?
14:22<Wolf01> exactly XD
14:22<andythenorth>Rubidium: I’m guessing 60mph
14:23<andythenorth>Wolf01: the first guy (black jumper, spikey dark hair)
14:24<andythenorth>that’s me
14:24<andythenorth>looks like management
14:26<andythenorth>looks like me too :P
14:27*andythenorth should make Hog
14:27<andythenorth>but is too angry about EU referendum campaigning
14:28<frosch123>maybe read the german media about it :) not sure whether they would make you laugh or cry though :p
14:29<andythenorth>in or out, I didn’t really care so much
14:30*andythenorth back to trains
14:31<Samu>DictatorAI reached 2051, but without building a single train
14:31<@Alberth>and not bankrupt? that's good :p
14:32<Samu>managed loan qute well
14:33<Samu>think i'm gonna exclude it from the list
14:34<Samu>AIAI is the last to finish
14:35<Samu>slows down the server from time to time
14:35<frosch123>andythenorth: one article with a big headline talks about some small town, which once had an brittish army place, and what happened after it closed down. result: bakeries stay, brothels vanish
14:35<Samu>needs 10 more years
14:36<Samu>choochoo is finishing in a few months, it kind of disappointed
14:37<Samu>doesn't replace old vehicles, doesn't upgrade them, keeps building routes but there's no more diesel engines available
14:37<Samu>doesn't switch to monorail or maglev either
14:39<Samu>oh, he has a few unfinished monorail and maglev routes
14:39<Samu>i expected better, maybe limiting number of buses to 0 is handicaping him somewhat?
14:39<Samu>I don't know what went wrong
14:42<andythenorth>frosch123: hard to know what general conclusion to draw from that :)
14:44<Samu>AIAI server is having fierce human interaction
14:46<Samu>ChooChoo finished
14:46<Samu>last one remaining, AIAI
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14:46<Samu>i don't have time to test more AIs today
14:52<Arveen>you need an AI to test AIs
15:12<Wormnest>Also why do you open up your ai test servers for humans if you want to compare them under equal circumstances
15:19<@Alberth>original author of NoCAB is gone and no longer reachable? else you could ask for ownership of the project
15:20<Wormnest>I think he replied once this year
15:20<Wormnest>on the forum
15:21<Wormnest>I don´t really want to take over just wanted a working ai without problems :p
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15:24<@Alberth>ownership is just taking over the stick :)
15:24<@Alberth>you can do as much or as less as you like
15:25<@Alberth>but otherwise, WorkingCAB ? :)
15:26<@Alberth>MovingCAB :p
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15:27<Wormnest>YesCAB ;)
15:27<@Alberth>haha :) nice one
15:28<@Alberth>MaybeCAB :p
15:36<Wormnest>The name is not gonna be a problem lol. Let´s if I can come up with some save/load improvements first.
15:38<@Alberth>would be nice
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17:07<Samu>AIAI server is ending, last month
17:08<Samu>he beat the humans in profit, i'm surprised
17:08<Samu>red human surpassed him once
17:09<Samu>it's over 2051!
17:12<Samu>AIAI created a log size of 580 MB (608.456.870 bytes)
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---Logclosed Sun Jun 19 00:00:10 2016