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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-06-22

---Logopened Wed Jun 22 00:00:23 2016
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04:57<Wolf01>but... but... but... the game was just updated, why does it need to update again? :(
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05:11<V453000>too much hype
05:16<Wolf01>yes, much
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05:54<Wolf01>mmh, I think I'll switch to the most efficient layout for solar farms, at least I can spare one blueprint
05:58<Alkel_U3>best layouts are the self-building ones with embeded roboports
05:59<Alkel_U3>I don't mean in terms of efficiency, I just think it's cool :P
06:03<Alkel_U3>hm, it would perhaps be nice to have charging stations that wouldn't provide housing to robots but still could charge them. Now I have to build large amount of superfluous roboports to act mostly as chargers near the densest logistics areas (mostly the one where I get stuff into my inventory)
06:03<Alkel_U3>those would be either smaller or provide more charging ports
06:05<Alkel_U3>hm, I see there have been mods for that
06:07<Wolf01>the problem is that I wouldn't need roboports in the middle of nowhere
06:07<Wolf01>but I think I'll place one in the middle of each cell too
06:08<Alkel_U3>I also don't really need those six rows of laser turrets, but... :D
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06:37<Samu>there's a lot of refit code
06:37<Samu>i'd like to try a change somewhere in the code relating to refits inside ship depots
06:38<Samu>if there's not enough money for refit, the game currently stops the ship
06:38<Samu>i'd like it not to stop the ship, refit regardless of cost
06:38<Samu>let it go into negative
06:39<Samu>where would this be in teh code?
06:52<Samu>think i found it
06:52<Samu>vehicle.cpp line 1440
07:04<Wolf01>bah, these high efficiency layouts don't work
07:04<Wolf01>I don't need layouts which recharge in no time :|
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07:15<Samu>refit code too complex
07:23<V453000>youtube is down, how can I work?
07:26<V453000>that's dumb
07:26<V453000>even porn is more productive than that
07:28<Samu>vidme is like imgur
07:28<Samu>but for videos
07:33<V453000>yes, bullshit
07:36<Alkel_U3>it's back on, you can get back to work :P
07:36<Wolf01>V453000, brightcove or vimeo
07:37<Alkel_U3>or dailymotion
07:37<Samu>those require registering an account
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07:38<Samu>i've been using onedrive though, but i hear some ppl can't see the videos i use
07:38<Wolf01>samu, he wanted to view videos
07:38<Samu>and it needs a microsoft account...
07:39<Samu>oh, really? :(
07:39<Samu>thought it was for uploading
07:39<Wolf01>it's a graphics designer job to watch at videos the entire day to get new ideas
07:40<Samu>sorry then
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07:43<Wolf01>mmm I really need 2.5:1 instead of the 0.84 suggested for an extreme efficient layout for solar farms
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07:47<V453000>EXACTLY Wolf01 I will suggest it at our next meeting
07:47<V453000>watching videos to get inspired
07:47<V453000>also, tbh completely ignore the 0.84 ... at least that's what I do
07:47<V453000>because it makes no sense
07:48<Wolf01>thats what my coworkers always did ;)
07:48<V453000>it only works if your factory has the precise amount of solar panels you need, if it never stops working, if if if
07:48<V453000>the only safe solution is have shitload of solar panels, shitload of accumulators, both in excess
07:48<V453000>in general I get a lot of accumulators to have room for laser defense draining and shit
07:49<V453000>mainly shit
07:50<Wolf01>and behemots are starting to give me some troubles
07:51<Alkel_U3>it's nice to have half-a-day worth of spare energy storage so you have time to realize you accidentaly cut of your largest solar farm
07:51<Wolf01>oh, shit... I don't think I can go further this way... the map is all red :|
07:52<V453000>yeah or even that Alkel_U3
07:52<Alkel_U3>just power armour your way through :-)
07:52<V453000>but in my 0.13 playthrough I am going to use no solar panels, no accumulators, no laser turrets
07:52<V453000>just steam all the way
07:52<Wolf01>whoa, I can count at least 15 behemots on the smallest nest
07:52*V453000 haz plans
07:53<Wolf01>ion cannon mod, here I come
07:53<V453000>yeah behemoths have a big power spike, they are suddenly there and they are much stronger than big biters :D
07:53<Alkel_U3>fortunately also slow
07:54<Alkel_U3>ulike, say, trains :P
07:54<V453000>I don't think they are slower than normal biters
07:54<V453000>but I am not sure
07:54<Wolf01>the problem is that they are spitters, so they are able to wipe my outposts
07:55<Wolf01>the biters are attacking the tracks between outposts too, they seem to have learnt to avoid turrets
07:56<Alkel_U3>hm, maybe it was bigger colision boxes so they'd be getting stuck more often? Usually when I have whole hell on my tail running towards nearest laser-equiped outpost the small ones arrive first, then mediums and then bigs
07:56<V453000>hm not sure
07:56<Alkel_U3>behemoth spitters are kinda a concern, yes :P
07:56<Wolf01>shit, they just wiped out the outpost
07:56<V453000>Wolf01, natives always prefer military shit, radars, pollution shit
07:57<V453000>they go towards pollution, and wreck military/radars on the way there
07:57<V453000>they seem to focus radars sometimes too
07:57<Wolf01>no pollution, I'm building a railway
07:57<Wolf01>and place outposts at regular intervals
07:57<V453000>yeah well when they get into idle state or something, they also eat railways
07:57<V453000>maybe sometimes just for a snack
07:58<V453000>a bit of ballast can't hurt
07:58<Wolf01>trenches, laser fences, traps...
07:58<Alkel_U3>spitters get physical attack from that, when they spit sleepers and railway ties at you :D
07:59<V453000>just make a laser turret wall everywhere :P
07:59<Alkel_U3>I meant the other thing that ties the rail to the tie... nevermind
08:00<Wolf01>I built a laser turret wall :D
08:00<Wolf01>but I might need to make it 3 rows
08:00<Alkel_U3>try that cannonturret mod :D
08:00<Wolf01>I'll go for the artillery
08:01<Wolf01>0.11... 0.11... meh.11
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08:04<V453000>3 rows or go home
08:05<Wolf01>need a more reliable tank, the base one is shit at late game
08:08<V453000>I like the Super Tank mod
08:08<V453000>OP as fuck but why not really
08:09<V453000>it's not like flying combat robots are exactly satisfying
08:09<V453000>but yeah combat overhaul is probably coming in 0.14
08:09<Wolf01>I'm trying with defender capsules but they don't like to kill too much
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08:13<Alkel_U3>defenders really don't fare well againts behemots or bigs
08:13<Alkel_U3>destroyers in good numbers on th other hand...
08:15<Alkel_U3>also this :D
08:18<Wolf01>it seem I can't see that video
08:19<Alkel_U3>it's a fighter jet of sorts with rockets
08:20<Wolf01>oh, now it works
08:21<Alkel_U3>oh, cool feature I didn't know youtube has - you have to know what the wideo's about to be able to load it. Nice!
08:21<Samu>i dont know how to change this refit thing
08:22<Samu>a ship has an order to go to ship depot to refit
08:22<Samu>if the company has enough money, it refits, but if it doesn't, it stops the ship
08:23<Samu>i want to avoid the vehicle to stop
08:23<Samu>i want to either wait for money, then refit
08:23<Samu>or just refit and letthe company go into negative balance
08:23<Samu>code is too complex
08:24<Samu>stopping the vehicle is a bad solution, especially when dealing with a large company
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08:39<Samu>wait for money is probably the better solution, rather than letting company go into negative
08:40<Samu>ship waits inside depot until company gets money
08:40<Samu>once it gets, it refits and releases ship
08:40<Samu>something like a red signal / green signal
08:40<Samu>dunno how feasible this is
08:42<Samu>if it doesn't get money after a long while, maybe display a news message
08:42<Samu>kinda like a train waiting too long on a red signal
08:49<Wolf01>isn't it already like that?
08:51<Wolf01>heh, my current factorio game:
08:52<V453000>exactly how it should be then
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08:54<Samu>it isn't, maybe some newgrf does that
08:54<Samu>i see tons of newgrf codes in-between
08:54<Samu>original vehicles don't do it
08:55<Samu>i never use newgrfs, so i don't really know
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08:56<Alkel_U3>no it isn't, the bugs should be aflame
08:58<V453000>just make refit always cost 0
08:58<V453000>haha Alkel_U3 probably sees my current testing savegame :P
09:00<Alkel_U3>I had a hunch that was part of that 'no lasers' earlier :P
09:01<V453000>I want to test how do flamethrowers+gun turrets deal vs behemoth problems
09:02<V453000>and how much excess oil do I need to feed all that fiery mayhem
09:03<Alkel_U3>does it accept fuel directly from the pipe? :D
09:03<Alkel_U3>I very much hope it does!
09:03<V453000>yeah, there is no other way to feed them
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09:03<V453000>also, if you build multiple of them next to each other, the pipe works as a pipe, it just has the fluid going through
09:03<V453000>but you probably don't want to make gigantic arrays of them, just one every while
09:04<V453000>PROBABLY. :>
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09:04<Alkel_U3>Awesome! :-) Well, the other way would be canisters of fuel like for the handheld flamethrower now. That would be lame :P
09:10<Samu>there's a massive input slowdown on NoCAB ship server
09:11<Samu>too many ships lost
09:11<Samu>i see most AIs fail at positioning ship depots
09:11<Samu>they block
09:12<Samu>otvi is really spamming ship depots
09:12<Samu>really bad
09:12<V453000>Yeah it would be too similar to gun turrets Alkel_U3 , you could as well put the flamethrower cannisters into those and call it a new feature
09:13<V453000>though my plan is to deliver crude oil to outposts, refine it there, send sulfur+plastic back to main base, use light oil as ammo
09:14<Alkel_U3>to draw more attention to the proximity of the turrets? :-)
09:24<Samu>there's not easy way to find depots on the minimap
09:24<Samu>not an*
09:25<Samu>only company property shows them, but it's just by the company color
09:27<Wolf01>I'd be happy with a firestorm generator :/
09:27<Samu>dictatorai has someships with a single order
09:30<Wolf01>V, do you think it will be possible to have terrain edges one day, like the command&conquer ones?
09:34<V453000>what terrain edges?
09:34<V453000>like cliffs? or?
09:36<Wolf01>like cliffs, just to add some variation
09:37<Wolf01>also: I noticed some interesting artwork here :P
09:40<V453000>yeah cliffs would be nice but idk when that might happen
09:40<Samu>wmDOT issue ->
09:40<V453000>terrain will get some improvements in 0.14, just don't know what exactly
09:41<V453000>also, that deviantart webpage is Pavel
09:41<Wolf01>lol :D
09:41<V453000>the guy who was fired so I am now in his place
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09:43<V453000>his artwork is nice, but working with him was a pain
09:45<Wolf01>I might know the kind of person
09:47<Wolf01>mmmh, what is with game devs these days? steam games getting updated 2-3 times on the same day :|
10:00<@peter1138>remember when games were released when finished...?
10:00<Wolf01>it must be long time ago, because I don't
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10:49<Eddi|zuHause>peter1138: that's a perception bias. games weren't finished, they were just "done", because distributing patches was so hard
10:50<Eddi|zuHause>plenty of games that were rushed to market and just ended up terrible
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>also, games where you found out years later that there was like a 1.4 patch, but it never got to you
10:55<Samu>90 degrees and ship depots is tough for AIs to deal with
10:58<Wolf01>26°C and my AI doesn't work well
11:02<Samu>major issue with ship AIs as I see it, is ship depots blocking
11:02<Samu>i am allowing 90 degrees turns
11:02<Samu>it helps a bit, but not in all cases
11:03<Samu>with forbidden 90 degrees it would be way worse
11:04<Samu>otvi ai is really careless with ship depot positioning
11:04<Samu>sometimes he puts depots on a valid connection
11:04<Samu>turns out it blocks it
11:05<Samu>then he releases the ship from that same depot, they're lost on the let go
11:05<Samu>NoCAB has similar issue
11:05<Samu>not as blatant as otvi
11:06<Samu>but it's also there
11:07<Samu>nocab however masses ships on blocked connections to the point it slows down the whole game~
11:08<Samu>there's also the half-tile water/half-tile land from towns
11:08<Eddi|zuHause>how are these two things correlated?
11:08<Samu>when a house is built
11:09<Samu>that half water tile is no longer allowing ship passage
11:09<Samu>it can end up blocking
11:09<Samu>same with bridge ramps
11:10<Samu>this is a very tough situation for AIs to deal with
11:11<Samu>with 90 degrees forced into the mix, there's just too many slowdowns
11:11<Samu>the game doesn't make it easy for AIs
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11:13<Samu>rivers don't help, in fact, it is causing issues with dictatorAI, he's not aware that he needs to build locks
11:14<Samu>90 degrees and rivers is really hard, even from a human standpoint, to deal with
11:14<Samu>can't imagine from an AI
11:16<Samu>but ok, the most glaring issue for now, is ship depot placement
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11:18<Samu>max distance from previous destination also seems to be another issue, but i don't suppose that to be too hard for AIs to solve
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11:19<Samu>is there a pathfinder that allows any distance for ships?
11:19<Samu>YAPF doesn't let it
11:19<Samu>gonna try
11:22<Samu>hmm NPF allows it
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11:22<Samu>guess it's time to restart ship servers
11:30<Samu>damn, i hate to do it, but i better restart all ship AIs with NPF, it appears to be less limiting than YAPF
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13:21<supermop>yo Alkel_U3
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13:44<Alkel_U3>supermop: yo
13:44<supermop>hows it going
13:45<Alkel_U3>just finished programming homework for an interview and I have very bad feelings about it. You?
13:46<Alkel_U3>I was able to think of a solution, but I'm slow :(
13:48<supermop>i am researching demountable partitions for a project, and hoping i do not need to specify the manufacturer i used to work for
13:57<supermop>havent been on the server much but checking in on my company today
13:57<supermop>still in the 60s
13:58<Alkel_U3>I think Farkl was the only active in the past few days
13:59<Alkel_U3>I had important party business from friday till sunday and toniht was the first solid sleep i had
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14:09<supermop>parties are important business
14:10<andythenorth>EU cat
14:10<andythenorth>Leave Cat
14:10<andythenorth>Remain Cat
14:10<supermop>andythenorth: i don't even want to think about all that stuff anymore
14:10<supermop>huge bummer
14:11<Wolf01>now you can leave safely, I received what I purchased on England :P
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14:24<Samu>just leave
14:24<Samu>maybe the EU will die with it
14:25<Samu>if u got the chance to leave, leave. Poor Greece didn't have that chance and see what happened to them
14:26<Samu>EU is just germany
14:26<andythenorth>it’s an argument yes
14:26<Samu>there is no EU
14:26<andythenorth>on the other hand, leaving legitimises racists and hands power to some very distasteful people
14:26<andythenorth>and the EU is not just Germanu, Britain and France are substantial
14:27<andythenorth>Germany *
14:27*andythenorth is not a fan of the EU, but a pragmatist
14:32<Samu>every time i see merkel and that weelchair dude... GOD... don't make me talk
14:38*Rubidium wonders whether a leave vote will actually mean that the UK stops abiding by the EU rules, because arguably the UK won't get a free trade agreement without agreeing to following the EU rules
14:38<@Rubidium>and in that case it'll get significantly harder to export goods to the EU
14:39<Hiddenfunstuff>EU is evil
14:39<@Rubidium>but well... not my problem
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14:44<andythenorth>Rubidium: is my problem eh
14:45<supermop>Samu: if your worry is that the eu is dominated by germany, then keeping other, non german, large economies inside the EU is the solution
14:46<supermop>an eu without UK is a lot more german than one with the UK
14:46<supermop>tbh i'd prefer to see the US in the EU as well
14:48<andythenorth>ha ha ha
14:48<supermop>rather work and life are a lot more practical the fewer state and semi-state level entities with differing rules you have to abide
14:49<supermop>Rubidium: my dad works for a vendor that supplies to several clients in UK and EU, even though they are an american company with majority american clients
14:49<supermop>and they still have to follow all the EU rules
14:49<supermop>regarding privacy, data, etc
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14:51<supermop>i am in an industry less affected, and most of our offshore projects are in China, so not as much of an issue for us
14:51<andythenorth>yeah, we won’t use vendors that don’t comply with safe harbour or guarantee not to offshore certain kinds of data
14:51<andythenorth>we have to do the same to sell into Australia and NZ though
14:52<andythenorth>on Friday we’ll have to assess our EU vendors
14:52<andythenorth>as we won’t have any clear legal framework
14:52<supermop>five eyes might as well make a union
14:52<andythenorth>and we’ll be assessed by our EU customers
14:53<supermop>andythenorth: better off if all the EU were a single state
14:54<andythenorth>again, ha ha ha ha
14:55<supermop>andythenorth: not saying desirable, just that you'd have fewer sets of rules to look at
14:56<andythenorth>“supermop’s single global state”
14:56<andythenorth>“the new world order"
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15:05<supermop>andythenorth: has a nice ring to it
15:05<Samu>it's the solution? germany is the only country thriving with this so called "European Union", the member states have nearly no power, they are being subjugated (being milked money of) to feed the fat lords of germany
15:05<Samu>i rather see it all fall apart
15:05<supermop>i assume my photo will be ubiquitous in public spaces
15:05<supermop>Samu: if you are an EU citizen you could move to germany
15:06<andythenorth>Samu: where are you living?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>* Rubidium wonders whether a leave vote will actually mean that the UK stops abiding by the EU rules, because arguably the UK won't get a free trade agreement without agreeing to following the EU rules <-- a leave vote will change nothing, because the referendum is not actually binding.
15:06<supermop>ok i'd stay in port to drink the port
15:07*andythenorth has found there’s no convincing leavers
15:07<andythenorth>it’s an emotional decision, hard to argue with
15:10<Samu>while we get €500 / month, the gers get €5000 and still think it's too little
15:11<Alkel_U3>do you actually blame the eu for that?
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>i still don't understand how they even allowed it to be a discussion
15:11<@Alberth>actually, rich countries tend to pay more to the EU than they get
15:11<Samu>i still dont get why turkey accepted being part of EU...
15:12<Samu>but ok, another countryto milk money off
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: but rich countries also benefit more from access to markets and stuff
15:13<@Alberth>yeah, I have no problems with it, just saying germany is not actually profiting as much as Samu claims
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>and if you include the rebates that britain already gets on membership fees, it's really not that much
15:13<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: but a poor country with an export dependent economy probably needs an expanded market more than a big country does
15:14<supermop>germany could do fine selling german goods to germans
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>the brits are just still mad that they lost their "empire"
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: you have obviously no clue how the german economy works
15:14<Eddi|zuHause>germany would be FUCKED if it exports stopped
15:14<supermop>greek companies that export need non greek buyers
15:15<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: now yes, but one could imagine that an industrial economy of that size at least has a higher proportion of internal buyers than say, lichtenstein
15:15<@Alberth>that would be the definition of export, right? :)
15:15<supermop>how much does Hilti sell within lichtenstein?
15:18<supermop>Samu: portugal exports more to EU than it imports
15:18<Samu>UK is number 1 or 2 exporter i think
15:19<Samu>UK leaving EU will definitely affect Portugal
15:19<supermop>per capita or gross??
15:19<Samu>no idea, news were saying Port is the 4th most affected country if Uk exits
15:20<Samu>port also exports a lot to ger and spain
15:20<supermop>breaks it down by percentage
15:21<supermop>spain naturally biggest partner for both imports and exports
15:21<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: it should never have come to a referendum
15:21<andythenorth>but eh
15:22<Samu>we import too much from spain
15:22<Samu>way toooo much
15:22<@Alberth>stop buying spanish sun :)
15:22<Samu>it's cheaper to buy spanish products than portuguese products which make little sense
15:22<Samu>but that's how it goes in portugal
15:23<NGC3982>Out of context
15:23-!-pereba_ [~adiirc@2804:7f2:80:ddc9:7c0d:a499:8137:ab40] has joined #openttd
15:23<NGC3982>We Swedes have a very distorted view on Spane and Portugal
15:23<NGC3982>Most Swedes seems to think it's some kind of paradise.
15:23<supermop>samu, surely some things are more efficient to manufacture in spain?
15:25<supermop>and then some other things might make more sense to make in portugal
15:25<frosch123>supermop: if you expand the "export goods" and "import goods" lists on that wiki page, the lists are almost identical
15:25<supermop>frosch123: does not seem to be a highly specialized economy?
15:26<supermop>more generalist
15:27<supermop>but i dont see what EU membership has to do with make up of economy in that regard
15:29<frosch123>me neither, i just pitty whoever adds those stuff to wiki
15:30<supermop>my fiancee used to have to write regular white papers on all that stuff every 2 weeks
15:30<supermop>for several economies
15:30<supermop>mostly in south east asia
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15:30<frosch123>well, if they change every 2 weeks, the economies might be more interesting :po
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15:31<supermop>central banks reexamine that stuff all the time even if nothing changes
15:32<supermop>she found it deeply, truly boring
15:32<andythenorth>EU economy in FIRS
15:32<andythenorth>exports: malaise
15:32<andythenorth>imports: stuff from China
15:33<supermop>i like malaise on my fries
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15:34<Eddi|zuHause>i don't like marmelade on my fries
15:34<frosch123>did you try?
15:35<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so
15:36<andythenorth>you have preconceptions?
15:36<andythenorth>but no empirical test?
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>isn't that how the world works?
15:37<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: apparently
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>most of the people that hate immigrants have never actually spent more than 5 minutes with an immigrant
15:37<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: or more than 0
15:38<Eddi|zuHause>they might have passed one in the mall
15:38<@Rubidium>I'd rather say... most people who hate immigrants are immigrants themselves
15:38<@Alberth>5 seems like a safe over approximation
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: in america? probably, in europe? depends how many centuries back you want to define "immigrant" :p
15:40<@Rubidium>do you still live in the neighbourhood you were born in?
15:40<andythenorth>for the profile of people in the UK who are most concerned about immigration, yes, typically
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>how far is "neighbourhood"?
15:40<@Rubidium>a few blocks maybe
15:40<Samu>that's surprising to see france ranked high in the exportation
15:41<andythenorth>also France owns most of the UK’s utilities
15:41<@Rubidium>the whole point is that immigration is defined by people crossing some arbitrary boundary
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>also, i was born in a hospital, i did not live there for more than 2 weeks :p
15:41<andythenorth>is that export or import? :P
15:41<andythenorth>Eddi immigrated to the EU :P
15:41<andythenorth>by statute
15:41<andythenorth>dunno if he actually moved
15:41<Samu>Angola will be exporting less, they got some Oil crisis now
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: err, i think that was the other way around. the EU moved here :p
15:42<Samu>or importing, that is
15:42<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: did we colonise you? o_O
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>sorta :p
15:42<Samu>uk will exit, so uk will import less from port
15:42<Samu>all good news
15:42<andythenorth>UK will import about the same
15:42<andythenorth>it will make fuck all real difference to trade patterns
15:43<Samu>germany can very much do whatever they please
15:43<andythenorth>no Germany can’t
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how does "financial" fit into "real trade"?
15:43<Samu>france, honestly, has a lot of portuguese communities there, but i dunno
15:43<andythenorth>Germany needs to sell things oversea
15:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: no idea
15:43<andythenorth>these things are above my pay grade eh
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: because from what i hear, those people are really really scared of a "brexit"
15:44<frosch123>andythenorth: move to scortland?
15:44<andythenorth>frosch123: Scotland is not yet independent :)
15:44<frosch123>maybe we can trade bavaria for scotland?
15:45<NGC3982>I don't understand why this is a thing all of the sudden. Many EU countries has for a long time been sceptical to EU itself, but most people agree that tantruming out of it is not really good for anyone.
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15:47<Eddi|zuHause>did the catalans declare independence yet?
15:49<andythenorth>NGC3982: it’s good for certain politicians who can gain power from it
15:50<andythenorth>and it sells newspapers
15:50<supermop>Samu: englishmen drink port regardless of trade agreements
15:51<andythenorth>my office is in a building which was a cork warehouse, which was for the portugal trade
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>cork as in the city or the material?
15:52<supermop>also, wouldn't you prefer the UK to buy more from Portugal, not less?
15:53<Samu>I don't want an EU, pretty much.
15:53<Samu>or at least Portugal being part of it
15:54<supermop>ok, but what exactly is the strategy for portugal's economy in that case?
15:54<Samu>we don't sell much of what is ours internally
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15:55<Samu>it's where our government should start
15:55<Samu>we have that much sea
15:55<Samu>for what?
15:55<supermop>who says you have that much sea
15:56*andythenorth must to bed
15:56<andythenorth>have fun
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15:56<supermop>surely the EU helps to make sure bigger countries respect the laws regarding what you have
15:56<frosch123>i like the brexit, it replaced the us elections in the news :)
15:56<Samu>Portugal only wants to "look good" from the outside
15:56<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: be assured that the US elections make a comeback. they take FOREVER
15:57<Samu>but it's terrible to live here
15:57<supermop>frosch123: one party picked a candidate so bad it is really tough to convince people he is currently competitive in the media
15:57<frosch123>i thought both parties picked bad candidate?
15:57<Samu>it's good for tourists to buy spanish imported products?...
15:57<Samu>in portugal?
15:58<@Rubidium>the 2014 EU budget is interesting... I did contribution to EU - expenditures to member states, divided that by the number of inhabitants and multiplied the number by 1 000 000 to get numbers in a "decent" range. NL +260, SE +222, DE +177, UK +68, EL -482, LT -531, LU -2700 (Luxembourg really has a good deal)
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>was there ever a possibility of picking a non-bad candidate?
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15:58<supermop>so once the primaries wrapped up there is nothing meaningful for the next few months
15:58<supermop>just empty rhetoric to fill time
15:59<supermop>frosch123: depends on what you mean by bad
15:59<@Rubidium>it amazes me that Germany gets all the EU money because the budget does not seem to confirm that. In absolute terms Poland gets most money, after that France, Spain and only then Germany
16:00<supermop>but i hold 'deeply unpopular' to be less bad than 'racist provocateur'
16:00<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: not sure what these numbers actually say
16:00<@Rubidium>in absolute terms DE pays most, then France, then Italy followed by the UK
16:01<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: it should be "cost" per capita according to the EU budget to be part of the EU
16:02<frosch123>euro per year and capita?
16:03<supermop>Rubidium: none of the arguments i hear ever seem to account for population for some reason
16:03<Samu>our most prominent problem is Isabel dos Santos
16:04<Samu>that lady is taking control of major economic stuff from Portugal, her position is....
16:04<Samu>... problematic
16:04<Samu>stuff related to Angola
16:05<Samu>she owns some major bank stuff from Portugal
16:05<Samu>the risk is high, now with Angola entering a crisis
16:06<Samu>and her nomination to rule even more stuff, she's being given too much power
16:06<@Rubidium>yeah, it seems like it
16:06<frosch123>or 10^-6 euro per year and capita?
16:06<frosch123>nah, that would be unlikely :)
16:06<@Rubidium>given the numbers for contribution being 6 391 for the NLs, I assume it to be 6 391 000 000 euro's
16:06<@Rubidium>(being 6 391 in the table I got)
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a lot
16:06<@Rubidium>that's where the 10^-6 comes from
16:06<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: 6*10^9 is more plausible than 6*10^6 :)
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>but it probably should be compared to the rest of the budget
16:06<@Rubidium>and I doubt the Dutch can afford 380 000 per capita, and 0,38 per capita seems a bit small given the large amounts of subsidies
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>i always have this figure in my head that 50% of the EU budget is for farming subsidies, but apparently that was only valid in 2000, since then, the farming subsidies stayed constant, but the EU budget grew by like factor 8
16:06<frosch123>yeah, i think it was reduced
16:07<frosch123>now it is spend on banks :p
16:08<frosch123>can we cancel brittish loans when they leave eu?
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16:08<Eddi|zuHause>sounds unlikely :p
16:08<Samu>wish i could undestand better these economic exposures, but Portugal is in a tough situation already with Angola entering a crisis, and with UK exiting EU.
16:08<@Rubidium>frosch123: I hope those loans are in Euros
16:09<supermop>Samu: can study macroeconomics
16:10<supermop>although if uk leaves EU you will not be able to use your econ degree to get a job in london anymore
16:11<supermop>my fiancee was an economist for years until she became so bored with it
16:11<Samu>that would be good, if only our country was properly decent at keeping their workforce
16:12<Alkel_U3>oh my, Limbo for free on Steam
16:12<Samu>they're probably migrating to switzerland of france, most likely
16:13<Samu>cus working in portugal is bad
16:13<supermop>why is working in portugal bad?
16:14<Eddi|zuHause>Alkel_U3: a discussion in another channel said that offer already expired
16:14<Samu>why earn €800 if u can earn £2000 or €2500
16:15<supermop>depends on what you want in life
16:15<supermop>and what you want to pay in rent
16:15<frosch123>supermop: <- unemploymentrates for people younger than 25
16:15<supermop>i have many friends who have remained in my home town
16:15<@Rubidium> <- actual numbers + sources
16:15<Alkel_U3>Eddi|zuHause: ah, that must've been 15 ,ins ago, then
16:16<supermop>where there are fewer jobs, and less pay
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16:16<supermop>but they enjoy it i guess
16:17<supermop>i have the freedom to move about within a large country of 330M people, to choose the city that is the best fit in terms of cost of living, jobs, and culture that i want
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>Alkel_U3: more like 2 hours
16:18<supermop>relative freedom - it is expensive to move
16:18<Alkel_U3>I lag that much?
16:18<supermop>and no city is a perfect fit
16:18<supermop>but at least i can leave a bad area
16:19<supermop>the EU brings some measure of that to europe
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16:21<supermop>if one country is short of labor, and one country is short of jobs, why not let people from the second country work in the first?
16:21<frosch123>supermop: that only works for high-tier jobs
16:22<frosch123>for low-tier jobs the language barriers are too high
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>also, the perception is that no country is actually short on labor
16:24<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: that is the perception, sure, but some countries certainly do have a need to attract more labor, which is why they see wages higher than others
16:24<frosch123> <- page 5 contains some numbers
16:26<supermop>i certainly do not think, however, that every EU country must have it's own independent heavy industrial base, selling exclusively within its own borders
16:27<supermop>and UK leaving the EU is not suddenly going to make british steel somehow competive again
16:28<supermop>if the UK comes up with the money to subsidize its steel, then what customer country would want to buy that rather than subsidize their own steel production
16:30<supermop>i'm not even sure what people are arguing for, other than spite
16:30<supermop>every leave argument i've seen boils down to spite
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i have seen a lot of arguments either way
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16:50<Samu>i'm posting stuff to flyspray, some fixes of my own, but i don't know the whole process of posting bugfixes
16:51<Samu>what does it take to accept a fix from a random guy?
16:53<Samu>ah i see alberth rejected my proposal for save empty script
17:18<Samu>in 8 years, SImpleAI server will finish
17:18<Samu>a trains server
17:20<Samu>ship servers are taxing cpu quite heavily
17:20<Samu>i should have known
17:20<Samu>cpu is at 100%
17:20<ST2>yeah, it's a known fact - that's why most of online communities limits them ^^
17:21<ST2>pathfinder eats cpu's on there - or burn them, in case you dnt have the server on a well cooled datacenter xD
17:22<ST2>I guess that's why one of our rented machines are in a Canadian datacenter xD
17:22<Samu>i got some AIs that are heavy
17:23<Samu>nocab is using 2700 ships atm, but most of these ships are blocked by his own ship depots :( the pathfinder isn't too keen on blockages
17:24<Samu>otvi suffers from the same
17:24<Samu>otvi spams ship depots, like they're trees or something... it's really bad
17:24-!-smoke_fumus [~smoke_fum@] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.2.0 Equilibrium]
17:25<Samu>then i got a nocab server utterly slowed down since 3 days ago
17:25<Samu>with his trains
17:25<Samu>these 3 servers are taxing 37.5% cpu
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17:25<Samu>2 spectating instances are also taxing 25%
17:26<Samu>the rest is 1 more train server about to finish, 4 more ship servers and respective spectating instances
17:26<Samu>everything counted taxes 100%, oh well
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17:29<Samu>hmm i really don't get some pathfinders, it's like none is good
17:31<Samu>NPF advantage, ships can have orders of any distance, but apparently it fails for short distances
17:31<Samu>feels like some AIs prefer certain pathfinders than others
17:32<Samu>I'm disappointed, I don't know how to test these AIs
17:33-!-sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
17:34<Samu> - how's it possible the ships can't find the way around that?
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17:37<Samu>how do i set the max distance between routes for YAPF?
17:38<Samu>YAPF isn't as dumb as NPF, but the max distance limitation ruins ditactorai
17:38<Samu>NPF ruins Trans
17:39<Samu>YAPF ruins DitactorAI.... I can't submit the AIs to the same parameters
17:39<Samu>what to do :(
17:39<Samu>and the Original ruins everybody
17:40*Samu slaps Wormnest around a bit with a large fishbot
17:42<Samu>testing ships is becoming harder than i expected
17:43<Wormnest>There´s a good reason why ships are not used as much as other vehicles, certainly in high amounts
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17:47<Samu>think i'm gonna do this the hard way
17:48<Samu>trans YAPF, trans Original, trans NPF
17:48<Samu>DitactorAI YAPF, DitactorAI Original, DitactorAI NPF
17:48<Samu>instead of 6 testings, it's 18
17:49<Samu>but at least it's fairer
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18:18<Hiddenfunstuff>night tastes good, day tastes dry
18:19<Hiddenfunstuff>almost like.. humid kerosene smell you have in airports..
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18:43<supermop>i think damn it
18:43<supermop>i bought like 5 turner turbos instead of passenger cars
18:44<supermop>that was like 60% of my cash on hand
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18:49<Eddi|zuHause>you can immediately sell them for no money loss
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19:10<Samu>last year for SimpleAI
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19:26<Samu>SimpleAI finished!
19:27<Samu>cpu usage is still 100% t.t
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