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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-06-23

---Logopened Thu Jun 23 00:00:25 2016
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06:07<Samu>NoCAB trains went to negative profit
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06:30<Samu>hmm, why not force players to enter their name when they click multiplayer
06:30<@peter1138>cos our ui smells
06:30<Samu>boring to see "Player has joined the game"
06:31<@peter1138>make a patch :p
06:31<Samu>ok, i can try
06:34<Samu>ugh, 100% cpu usage
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07:41<Samu>can I do something like this? if (client_name == "")
07:42<Samu>nop, i cannot
07:43<Samu>how do I compare strings?
07:48<SpComb>strcmp(a, b) == 0
07:48<SpComb>assuming you were talking C
07:50<Samu>*dst = '\0'
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07:50<SpComb>uh oh
07:50<Samu>how to compare "" to being the same as '\0'
07:50<SpComb>take a C programming course
07:51<SpComb>or you'll just be shooting yourself in the foot before you get anything done
07:51<SpComb>C is not a forgiving language for learning by blind trial-and-error
07:52<Samu>+ strecpy returned 0x0000005734afe578 "" char *
07:52<Samu>returned ""
07:53<Samu>ok i give up then
07:55<SpComb>you can find plenty of good material online if you want to study
07:55<SpComb> is one I'm involved with :P
07:58<Samu>let me see
07:58<Samu>i dunno what language it is
07:58<Samu>the file i was editing was network_gui.cpp
08:00<SpComb>if that's OpenTTD, then it's C++ but presumeably large parts of it can be considered to be C
08:00<SpComb>and I doubt you can really learn C++ without knowing C first
08:01<SpComb>if you have a really modern C++ codebase, you might be able to ignore some aspects of C, but that may be a somewhat unrealistic assumption :P
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08:05<Samu>i see the code entering .asm files sometimes
08:06<SpComb>really? OpenTTD has asm?
08:06<Samu>yes, doing string stuff
08:07<Samu>or memory copy stuff
08:07<Samu>not sure
08:07<SpComb>you mean in the source code, or when debugging?
08:07<Samu>when debugging, following intellisense
08:08<Samu>let me try again
08:08<SpComb>you're just missing debugging symbols for libc or somesuch then
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08:11<SpComb>best to just retreat back up the stack into your own code, you'll be passing in some invalid pointer
08:12<Samu>;strlen.asm - contains strlen() routine ; ; Copyright (c) Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
08:12<Samu>guess it's not part of openttd
08:13<Samu>;Purpose: ; strlen returns the length of a null-terminated string, ; not including the null byte itself.
08:38<Samu>how do I know if my *ahem* fixes, are being taken into consideration?
08:53<Samu>1 - 2 - 3 - (rejected?) 4 - 5 - 6 - 7 - 8 -
08:53<Samu>u don't like my stuff :P
08:54<Xaroth|Work>posting pastebins aren't fixes
08:54<Xaroth|Work>post patches instead, works a lot better
08:55<Xaroth|Work>and that rejected has information why it's rejected
09:02<Samu>will create .patch or .diff
09:14<Samu>what are newlines
09:14<Samu>CR+LF and LF
09:14<Samu>what is this and why does it matter
09:19<Samu>i see, but what is the impact of this on a .diff file?
09:20<Samu>or is it .patch? what's better? .diff or .patch?
09:21<Samu>.diff = notepad++
09:21<Samu>.patch = tortoise patch
09:25<Samu>notepad++ likes CR LF
09:25<Samu>tortoise likes LF
09:25<Samu>which one is correct?
09:26<Samu>i don't think i have control over these
09:26<Samu>what is better for OpenTTD? CR LF or LF?
09:31<jaenster>LF only ofc
09:31<Samu>hmm, I'm going to assume CR LF is better for OpenTTD, as I see everything being CR LF in the code
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09:32<jaenster>not that i have anything to say
09:32<Samu>erm... oh really? :(
09:32<jaenster>I made a guess, if all the code is in CR LF, you should do that
09:32<jaenster>but again, i have nothing to say or writen 1 line of code in ttd
09:33<Samu>that means, all my tortoise svn created patches suck :(
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09:48<Samu>i still don't get it
09:48<Samu>i applied a patch created by tortoiseudiff
09:48<Samu>it uses LF only
09:49<Samu>then i went to check the patched files, and they have CR LF
09:50<Samu>the original file is CR LF, creating patch writes it with LF, applying patch with LF creates CR LF
09:50<Samu>does this make sense? and i making an issue out of nothing?
10:03<Samu>is this a good patch?
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10:24<@Alberth>hi hi
10:24<Samu>just uploaded .patch files
10:26<Samu>now what do I do? wait?
10:28<@Alberth>I'd advise to also eat, and sleep, while waiting :)
10:30<Samu>ah :)
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10:49<Samu>is there a setting to forbid towns buildings on half-water tiles?
10:50<Samu>it ruins ships, the pathfinders, and the AIs
10:51<Samu>buildings like houses, road pieces and road bridge ramps
10:51<Samu>makes the water disappear
10:52<@Alberth>don't remember ever seeing such a setting
10:52<@Alberth>maybe something with disabling building foundations
10:52<@Alberth>but that would also cause havoc in hilly land
10:53<Xaroth|Work>Alberth: you forgot breathing..
10:53<@Alberth>hmm, good point :p
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10:53<Samu>ah, I remember
10:55<Samu>the issue is only related to half-water, building on hilly land is fine for ships
10:59<Samu>there's a setting to forbig bridges for towns, another to forbid town growing
11:00<Samu>hmm, not really what I'd like, but ... okay... I'll use them
11:00<Samu>i just can't stand this major slowdown
11:01<Alkel_U3>patch for half-tile houses :P
11:06<@peter1138>make tiles pixels
11:12<Alkel_U3>or make the whole thing fully 3D already
11:12<Alkel_U3>with blackjack and hookers
11:20<@Alberth>hookers can code while playing black jack?
11:21<Alkel_U3>if you pay them enough...
11:21<@Alberth>I bet they would :p
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11:27<@peter1138>Yeah, we all know it's just a tiny bit of code to make it fully 3D.
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11:47<Samu>restarted the ship AIs for the 3rd time :(
11:47<Samu>maybe this time they won't slow down as much
11:53<Samu>Original vs NPF vs YAPF
11:53<Samu>i can compare pathfinder this time
11:56<@Alberth>you tried all path finders now :)
11:57<Samu>i was testing all NPF first
11:57<Samu>it was becoming too slow
11:57<Samu>the cause was blocked ships
11:58<Samu>I'm now testing 2 AIs only, each with a different path find
11:58<Samu>DictatorAI and NoCAB
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11:59<Samu>all servers with towns not growing, not building roads, and not building bridges, i guess
11:59<Samu>let me recheck
12:01<Samu>allow_town_level_crossings is this for bridges or for something else?
12:01<Samu>allow_town_roads = false
12:01<Samu>allow_town_level_crossings = false
12:01<Samu>town_growth_rate = 0
12:01<Samu>fund_buildings = false
12:02<Samu>fund_roads = false
12:02<Alkel_U3>I don't think you can prevent towns from building bridges
12:02<Taede>iirc the crossings setting forbids towns to build level crossings with railroads if set to false
12:03<Samu>if they don't expand with bridges, that's fine
12:03<Samu>the existant bridges on game creation are supposedly dealt with fine by the AIs
12:04<Samu>it's only when new bridges are built that the problem starts
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12:07<Wolf01>o/ Alberth
12:11<Samu>there's a lot of variables in place now, AIs and pathfinders, i started the servers nearly at the same time
12:11<Samu>YAPF is currently delayed
12:11<Samu>Original and NPF are doing okay
12:12<Samu>but it's too early yet to draw conclusions
12:13<Samu>i'm also looking at cpu usage
12:14<Samu>I notice NPF does have a slightly higher cpu time
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12:19<andythenorth>should a fruit wagon refit farm supplies?
12:19<andythenorth>bit too convenient? o_O
12:19<frosch123>isn't it more like a reward for using refit orders?
12:20<andythenorth>dunno :D
12:21<Samu>looking at spectating instance CPU time, NoCAB has everything equal, but DictatorAI has his NPF instance doing quite a lot of cpu use
12:21<Wolf01>mmm, so now I should use "their" instead of "his or her"?
12:21<Samu>i wonder what's wrong
12:22<Wolf01>"*they: gender-neutral singular pronoun for a known person, particularly as a nonbinary identifier"
12:22<frosch123>i have heard native us speakers use it like that
12:23<Wolf01>but it's american, so wtf :D
12:23<Samu>okay i see ships lost for dictatorai NPF
12:23<Samu>ships lost = high cpu usage
12:24<Samu>what is happening at the path find side of the equation when a ship is lost?
12:25<Samu>why does it take so much cpu when that happens?
12:25<@Alberth>it tries to find a path again
12:25<@Alberth>every turn
12:26<@Alberth>and it fails after having explored all available space that it got
12:27<@Alberth>which is likely to be quite a bit of sea
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12:36<supermop_>andythenorth: plenty of room to set a few pruning shears etc in there
12:36<andythenorth>logically yes :P
12:36<andythenorth>how about tractors?
12:37<supermop_>bit tighter fit
12:37<supermop_>do orchards need tractors?
12:37<andythenorth>it’s a bit neat and tidy eh?
12:37<andythenorth>why not just put another car on the back?
12:37<supermop_>pineapple does that
12:38<supermop_>all the box type cars essentially refit to almost everything
12:38<supermop_>i actually like some limited cars
12:38<supermop_>as sometimes you cant get the consist to refit the way you want with refit orders
12:38<Samu>there's some ships lost too on Original, but it doesn't tax the cpu as much
12:39<Samu>let me look at YAPF
12:40<Samu>YAPF did not produce any lost ship yet for DictatorAI
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12:41<Samu>Original with lost ships, is taxing less than YAPF
12:41<Samu>but that is probably because it also has more ships
12:41<Samu>the AI has more profits
12:41<Samu>and builds more routes
12:42<@Rubidium>original loses ships much more efficiently
12:45<Samu>for some reason that made me laugh
12:46<supermop_>andythenorth: sometimes it is helpful to have at least one wagon in a consist only able to carry one cargo, when bootstrapping 'refit to any available' routes
12:46<andythenorth>that is a (minor) reason for splitting vehicle types
12:46<andythenorth>easier refit orders
12:46<andythenorth>major reason is shiny pixels
12:47<supermop_>richer functionality on refit orders would obviate
12:52<Samu>NPF servers are becoming slow already
12:52<Samu>both DictatorAI and NoCAB
12:52<Samu>YAPF is now ahead of NPF
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12:53<Samu>NoCAB built a depot that blocks passage for ships, they can't access the docks
12:53<Samu>and NPF cpu time just skyrockets
12:56<Samu>NoCAB YAPF also built some ship depot block access to docks, cpu time isn't as bad as NPF
12:56<Samu>37 minutes vs 25 minutes
12:57<Samu>the overall sentiment is that NPF sucks
12:58<Samu>i really thought it wasn't that bad
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13:28<Eddi|zuHause>what's an obviate?
13:37<Samu>there's a clear difference in profits
13:37<Samu>YAPF ships > NPF ships > Original ships on both AIs
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13:41<@Alberth>directly related to the quality of pathfinding, it seems
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14:02<andythenorth>is cat also
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14:03<Wolf01>V453000, hype, is 0.13 ripe?
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14:12<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: what do you need hype for if there's summer sale?
14:15<andythenorth>cat hype
14:16<Eddi|zuHause>my cat does not look particularly hyped
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14:18<V453000>IT'S HAPPENING
14:18<andythenorth>IT IS
14:18<andythenorth>IS IT?
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>TS II?
14:19<NGC3982>TeamSpeak 2.
14:19<Eddi|zuHause>never used teamspeak
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14:20<Samu>it's been 10 years, the current results are quite odd, they're going against expectations
14:20<V453000>I think I will lose my shit on Monday Wolf01
14:20<V453000>factory be built
14:22<Samu>most CPU usage for DictatorAI: NPF 59min w/ 342 ships > YAPF 15min w/ 659 ships > Original 9min w/ 632 ships
14:22<Samu>oops my bad, typo
14:22<Samu>most CPU usage for DictatorAI: NPF 59min w/ 659 ships > YAPF 15min w/ 632 ships > Original 9min w/ 342 ships
14:24*andythenorth is on for £50 at 4/1 on Brexit
14:24<andythenorth>£200 profit if we leave
14:25<Samu>most CPU usage for NoCAB: Original 22min w/ 1251 ships > NPF 15min w/ 1616 ships > YAPF 12min w/ 1944 ships
14:25<Samu>these results are strange :(
14:26<Samu>less cpu time with more ships is better
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14:29<Samu>in any case, YAPF looks to be the better
14:29<Samu>well not really in "any" case
14:31<Samu>I thought Original was innerently faster than any of the others
14:31<Samu>i'm being proven wrong
14:31<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: what do you need hype for if there's summer sale? <- I have no heart to open the steam store page (it doesn't work, also)
14:33<@Alberth>that helps in not opening it :)
14:33<@Alberth>instead, play a new game :)
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14:34<Wolf01>I restarted to play windward, as I notice it got updated 6 times in 3 days
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14:36<Eddi|zuHause>only 6? you probably missed a few :p
14:36<Wolf01>yeah, probably
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14:54*andythenorth is in your photoship, drawing your milk trucks
15:01<supermop>milk cans?
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: how long does the vote actually open?
15:07<@Rubidium>2100Z IIRC
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>so another hour?
15:08<frosch123>two hours
15:08<@Rubidium>nope, your in UTC+2
15:08<@Rubidium>darn it... you're
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15:19<Samu>why's everybody talking about steam today? It's not just here in this chat
15:19<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: about 1h 40m left
15:20<Samu>steam sucks
15:20<Wolf01>mmmh it seem that they broke the repair of turrets in windward... also some of my ships are taking damage from nothing
15:20<Samu>when poe was announced on steam, the community IQ went down
15:20<Samu>it attracted so many ... kids
15:21<andythenorth>steam is a capitalist plot
15:21<Wolf01>I think I'll wait for the next 6 updates
15:21<andythenorth>coming over here, ruining our public services
15:21<Wolf01>oh, wait, there is an update!
15:22<Samu>an update to poe?
15:23<Samu>leave it to steam to ruin your installed user base
15:23<Samu>i hope openttd never gets on steam
15:32<TrueBrain>steam is already in OpenTTD
15:32<TrueBrain>would be hard to start otherwise at the start of a new game tbh
15:33<ccfreak2k>Samu, Steam summer sale started today is probably why.
15:33<ccfreak2k>The metagame last year was better.
15:33<ccfreak2k>It was an mmo clicker game.
15:34<Samu>trading in poe was not a priority
15:34<Samu>but the horrible community it has now, it forced devs to do somthing regarding trades
15:36<Samu>i hate tradefests
15:37<Samu>poe on steam was the worst that could happen to the game :(
15:37<TrueBrain>you want a bucket for all the tears you are dropping?
15:37<TrueBrain>I think you are in the wrong channel for all that QQ
15:38<+glx>ccfreak2k: I prefer the discovery lists, easy to get cards
15:39<andythenorth>TrueBrain: you have free buckets? o_O
15:39<Samu>okay, i stop
15:39<TrueBrain>andythenorth: it cost you 3 iron
15:39<andythenorth>fuck that
15:39<TrueBrain>3 tin, with the right mods? :D
15:40<Xaroth|Work>3 clay, but can only use it for water
15:40<TrueBrain>tears are like water, not?
15:40<TrueBrain>should be fine
15:40<+glx>lava bucket for obsidian factory :)
15:40<Xaroth|Work>and you can craft it and get salt out of it!
15:40<TrueBrain>this conversation got derailed really easily :D
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>i thought lava bucket can only make you a cobble factory, or one single obsidian
15:41<TrueBrain>a bucket can not be made from lava, you sillies
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>baby food is also not made from babies
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>i think.
15:41<TrueBrain>you sure? HAve you looked in the factories?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>who really knows :p
15:42<TrueBrain>when someone finds out, they say: it is in the name, what did you expect?
15:42<TrueBrain>and they go free
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>it's the "sausage problem" where if you know how it's made, you probably don't want it anymore
15:42<TrueBrain>goes for most of my food I am sure
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>there's this guy who made an artificial paste that contains all necessary foodstuffs, and called it "soylent"
15:43<TrueBrain>"Features Free To Play Games": 7,49 euro, 16,07 euro, 16,79 euro, 4,99 euro ... weird definition of free Steam has :D
15:44<andythenorth>ha ha the Soylent troll
15:44<andythenorth>he has a funny blog
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>apparently he explicitly staded that it doesn't contain people :p
15:45<TrueBrain>what a horrible thing to state explicitly
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>he also didn't make it green, i suppose
15:56<andythenorth>it’s kind of olive green colour no?
15:57<Samu>this guy wants to make it okay to name and shame people
15:58<Samu>the worst of it, is that he's actually having supporters
15:58<Samu>rip PoE
15:58<andythenorth>the Soylent guy’s best troll:
15:58<andythenorth>he’s really funny
16:00<Samu>water is cheap? maybe where he lives
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16:05<Eddi|zuHause>i think this "virtual water usage" figure is pure nonsense
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16:06<andythenorth>he’s just messing with people
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>water in place A does not have the same value as water in place B
16:06<andythenorth>Soylent is an enormous practical joke
16:07<Eddi|zuHause>sometimes pratical jokes take on a life of their own
16:09<andythenorth>I think he’s very comitted to it :)
16:09<andythenorth>or, more plausibly, I’m wrong and he means all of it
16:09<andythenorth>but I prefer the idea that it’s a giant troll with lots of VC funding
16:13<supermop>with VC fnding, it doesn't really matter if you honestly think an idea is good or sustainable
16:14<supermop>so long as you can make it to the next round of fundraising
16:18<Samu>how do you know it's a troll? those comments seem kinda seriou7s
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>is that not how every "rational" business works?
16:22<andythenorth>best troll would look deadly serious :)
16:22<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: yep, but you don't even need your product to be desirable or profitable
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: that is precisely why a "free" market is never the best solution
16:23<supermop>a lot of startups are perennially loss making, but still bring in plenty of funding to give everyone a nice salary and free snacks in the kitchen
16:24<supermop>profitability is someone else's problem, after you go public or someone buys you out
16:24<supermop>then the founders can start a new start up with more free snacks and beer!
16:25<supermop>fiancee's work has two kegs in the office chosen by employee vote when they run out
16:25<supermop>for some reason VCs are fine with this
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16:33<supermop>i want one of those big toblerones
16:33<supermop>the ones that are like 80cm
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still not sure if i actually like toblerone
16:36<supermop>i go back and forth on them
16:36<supermop>i think it's been over a year since i had one
16:37<Eddi|zuHause>it's much longer for me
16:38<supermop>i probably has as many calories as in 4 toblerones in alcohol last night though, so best to abstain
16:42<supermop>i could also go for a pickle i guess
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17:06<andythenorth>no more toblerone for the UK
17:07<andythenorth>all those toblerones coming over here, ruining our culture
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17:08<frosch123>toblerone is safe, it's not eu
17:09<frosch123>though expensive when franken doubles again
17:09<frosch123>and pound halfes again
17:10<andythenorth>ha I wish I’d voted out now
17:10<andythenorth>I forgot about Switzerland
17:11<andythenorth>bah 2 more milk trucks to draw
17:11<andythenorth>but bedtime
17:12<NGC3982>Are there any results?
17:12<supermop>none expected yet i believe
17:12<frosch123>they likely did not count much in 12 minutes
17:13<NGC3982>Oh, it was just done?
17:13<NGC3982>I thought it was yesterday.
17:13<frosch123>no, they just closed :)
17:14<NGC3982>Ah, neat.
17:14<andythenorth>be tomorrow morning
17:14*andythenorth is not staying up
17:14<andythenorth>also bye
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17:15<NGC3982>Last polls seems to state 50/50-ish
17:15<NGC3982>Whoever wins, that's not good.
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17:44<Eddi|zuHause>what happens if both sides get exactly the same number of votes?
17:45<supermop>queen decides?
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think the queen has any vote in british politics
17:45<supermop>i think she gets one
17:45<supermop>as a citizen
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>but is she technically a citizen?
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>i think the queen is an exception to almost anything
17:46<supermop>believe so
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>like not needing a drivers license to drive, and stuff
17:46<supermop>i am sure if she registered to vote her local polling place would not turn her away
17:46<supermop>does she not have a drivers license?
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>i think that's a trivia thing going around
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>not sure if it's true
17:47<Eddi|zuHause>she probably doesn't drive anyway
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17:47<supermop>she's actually kind of well know for driving her own land rovers about
17:48<supermop>but i think these days that is only on a private estate
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17:48<supermop>she was a truck driver in the war
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause>how do they not have a prognosis already? in germany they have a prognosis right when the polling stations close, which is usually accurate within 1-2%, and gets refined over the next few hours with actual results
17:51<supermop>usually they are able to get a good estimate from exit polls here, and will be report on that even before polls close
17:51<supermop>but maybe they are choosing not to
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17:56<Eddi|zuHause>there's a law that the exit polls may not be published before polls close
17:57<Eddi|zuHause>here, not sure about britain
18:00<supermop>eve if there is no law, they have a bit more decorum about elections than we do
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18:13<+glx><Eddi|zuHause> there's a law that the exit polls may not be published before polls close <-- here it's not before 20h, but usually belgium media don't care ;)
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>glx: polls usually close around 18h here
18:14<+glx>20h here
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>but they also generally are on sundays :p
18:14<Eddi|zuHause>and not during holidays
18:15<+glx>same, sundays, 18h for most places and 20h for big cities
18:16<+glx>so nothing from french media before 20h and we start to get estimations from belgian media at 18h :)
18:25<supermop>is 18h a common continental way of writing 18:00?
18:28<Eddi|zuHause>no, i just picked the same format that glx was using
18:28<Samu>pathfinder update, current server year for DictatorAI: Original @ 1973, YAPF @ 1972, NPF @ 1967
18:28<Wolf01>last 2 polls here closed at 23.00
18:28<Samu>for NoCAB: Original @ 1968, YAPF @ 1967, NPF @ 1965
18:29<+glx>I rarely use : when I write
18:30<Eddi|zuHause>i was debating in my head whether i should use :
18:31<+glx>but indeed the standard is HH:MM
18:32<+glx>but I think we most write HHhMM
18:32<Wolf01>btw, 'night
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18:34<Samu>ships that returned a profit last year for DictatorAI: Original 351/490 (~72%), NPF 696/782 (~89%), YAPF 516/578 (~89%)
18:37<Samu>for NoCAB: Original 1918/3887 (~49%), NPF 1815/3378 (~54%), YAPF 2122/3473 (~61%)
18:38<Samu>YAPF is the better of the three, overall
18:42<Samu>cpu time used so far for DictatorAI: YAPF 1h45m, Original 1h59, NPF 3h27
18:43<Samu>for NoCAB: Original 2h39m, YAPF 2h57m, NPF 3h05m
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18:47<Samu>the impressions I have is Original deals better with lost ships regarding cpu usage, but having lost ships isn't desirable
18:47<Samu>NPF deals horribly with lost ships
18:48<Samu>huge cpu time
18:48<Samu>yapf with lost ships, not really sure yet
18:49<Samu>it seems Original is lighter than YAPF regarding lost ships
18:52<Samu>regarding mouse and keyboard input... they're all horrible
18:52<Samu>slow, sluggish, delayed... ugh
18:53<Samu>YAPF doesn't produce as many lost ships as NPF
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23:40<supermop__>this is ridiculous
23:41<supermop__>can't remember last time pound was this weak
23:43<Sacro>supermop__: that's what happens when you leave the EU
23:44<supermop__>what's absurd is that apparrently 51% of people didn't think of this beforehand
23:45<Sacro>The turkeys have voted for Christma
23:45<supermop__>that is such a british sounding aphorism
23:45<Sacro>£100Bn off the FTSE
23:46<supermop__>hope everyone is really enjoying this
23:47<supermop__>now go out and fish all the north sea cod to extinction
23:49<supermop__>them impressive i've got all along from leave has been that this is nothing about civil soceity and everything about spite and screwing over your allies
---Logclosed Fri Jun 24 00:00:26 2016