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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-07-21

---Logopened Thu Jul 21 00:00:08 2016
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01:15<Flygon> I read the part about making viable electric trucks and buses
01:16<Flygon>And all I can think is that Trams and Trolleybuses have been viable since they've been invented :U
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06:32<Wolf01>cluster grenades > all
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08:00<Samu>2009, 2002
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08:57<V453000>where was that large ogfx file with all the sprite IDs etc?
08:58<V453000>:D I can't find it
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09:00<Wolf01>V453000, do you think it would be too much work to be able to place ghost entities without having them in the inventory? Just like blueprints (I don't want to make a blueprint of every single entity even if now there's plenty of space)
09:01<V453000>press shift when placing entity
09:01<Wolf01>I can't, I don't have the entity
09:02<V453000>yeah then nope
09:02<V453000>I can't imagine how would such a thing work tbh
09:02<Wolf01>oh, just select it from the recipe list
09:03<V453000>well since that's already for crafting, it would be confusing
09:04<Wolf01>shift+click -> ghost entity in hands instead of crafting it (which I can't do even that because I don't keep materials in the inventory)
09:05<Wolf01>too bad the shift is used to "craft x of entity"
09:05<V453000>isn't shift click something like craft all you can?
09:05<Wolf01>right click then?
09:05<Wolf01>that's craft 5...
09:06<Wolf01>ctrl+click does something else
09:06<Wolf01>needs a tooltip
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09:08<Wolf01>also I can't understand why suddenly the construction bots left the work half done
09:12<V453000>=D I never realized openttd's base set wagons are all symmetrical and thus use just 4 sprites instead of 8 XD
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09:13<Wolf01>having a lot of details isn't always needed
09:14<Wolf01>I read of people bitching about leaving out the "drive-on-left" feature because bus doors are on the wrong side and it will ruin the gameplay experience
09:15<Wolf01>(train fever)
09:15<Wolf01>I don't even notice such details
09:15<Wolf01>also, I would make buses with doors on both sides
09:15<Wolf01>just because I'm lazy
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>how is that even an argument? some of the trams open doors on both sides
09:16<Wolf01>eh, people
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>also, if you have a 3d model, it's fairly easy to just flip it
09:17<V453000>fuck given = -
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>(might have to adjust text)
09:17<Wolf01>but you know, everyone is a developer and talks for developers
09:18<Wolf01>if they decide is too much work for a developer to flip a texture, it is too much work
09:19<MonkeyDronez>left hand drive for the win
09:19<MonkeyDronez>passenger doors on the right, lets keep it civil and british shall we
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>err, if you drive on the left, the right side is the traffic side
09:20<MonkeyDronez>yes, right side is where you drop people off too
09:20<Eddi|zuHause>you drop people off in the middle of the road?
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09:20<MonkeyDronez>no , that's when you switch lanes
09:21<MonkeyDronez>and go to the outer right lane and park at the appropriate stop
09:21<Wolf01><V453000> rekt <- XD
09:21<Eddi|zuHause>so your busses block the opposing traffic to let out passengers?
09:21<MonkeyDronez>Fast lane, medium lanes, then on the right most comes the slow lane where all the slow pokes drive
09:22<MonkeyDronez>opposing traffic
09:22<MonkeyDronez>see the problem now is that you are thinking right hand driving roads with left hadn driving
09:22<MonkeyDronez>for left hand driving, the road and road system is design to work with left hand driving, not right hand driving
09:22<MonkeyDronez>obviously it would be stupid to use left hand driving on right hand road systems
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>some countries do that, have the steering wheel on the other side
09:23<Eddi|zuHause>but still drive on right
09:24<MonkeyDronez>what country o.o
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>also, nobody used the term "left hand driving"
09:24<MonkeyDronez>living in stone age
09:24<Eddi|zuHause>MonkeyDronez: i think it's common in scandinavian countries
09:25<Eddi|zuHause>where it's more important to see the edge of the road, which frequently is along cliffs (up or down), rather than a good view for overtaking
09:26<MonkeyDronez>ah , well , most places i've been, never had cliffs, all normal
09:26<MonkeyDronez>and ottd doesn't have to worry about cliffs
09:26<MonkeyDronez>so we can keep it British and civil :P
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>still, i think you
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>'re confusing the left and right side
09:30<MonkeyDronez>hmmm, ok, lets take directions, north and south
09:31<MonkeyDronez>if we were travelling north and there are 2 lanes, 1 going N, 1 going S
09:31<V453000>sprite IDs of vehicles are such a mess XD I don't think there is any system in the cargo order
09:31<MonkeyDronez>the right side would be going N, left side would be going S. this would be LHD system
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>you have a strangely confusing and misleading definition there
09:33<Samu>2011, 2002
09:33<MonkeyDronez>i'm telling you how road systems work here
09:33<Eddi|zuHause>what is "here"?
09:34<@peter1138>$ clamscan /usr/share/doc/python-libxml2/examples/
09:34<@peter1138>Xml.Exploit.CVE_2013_3860-1 FOUND
09:34<MonkeyDronez>Middle East
09:35<MonkeyDronez>sudo apt-get remove clamscan
09:36<@peter1138>Not really an option
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09:48<murr4y>that's about parsing untrusted xml, right?
09:49<murr4y>i think most xml parsers are vulnerable to maliciously crafted xml unless explicitly stated otherwise
09:49<@peter1138>It's about Microsoft .NET parsing XML.
09:50<V453000>LMFAO, base set doesn't define mono/mglv wagons for water, copper ore and rubber
09:50<V453000>the mess is real XD
09:51<murr4y>oh lol, it found a .net vulnerability in your python library?
09:52<V453000>I am never going to view the game the same ever again
09:59<@peter1138>It's a python example script that looks like it generates XML programmatically. Therefore there are segments of XML in it, but it's not a well-formed XML document.
09:59<@peter1138>V453000, doesn't it just reuse existing graphics?
09:59<V453000>well yeah
10:00<V453000>but all temperate wagons have maglev version
10:00<V453000>tropic just doesn't :D
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10:05<V453000>and wtf is going on with steel/paper
10:05<V453000>and I can't find empty copper ore hopper ._.
10:06<V453000>copper ore hopper 2774 xd which is iron ore hopper
10:06<V453000>must be some climate-specific shit in opengfx
10:07<V453000>oh yeah they are in extra
10:07<V453000>jesus fucking christ
10:07<V453000>ah the extra maglev rubber etc wagons are there as well
10:08<@peter1138>well :p
10:08<@peter1138>sprite replacements, loving it
10:08<V453000>this makes no sense even
10:08<V453000>why is loaded copper ore hopper in base, and empty in extra
10:08<V453000>WTF :D
10:09<V453000>cause the original copper ore hopper looks the same as iron ore hopper
10:09<V453000>that will be why
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>that might have been a bug in the original graphics where openttd.grf has a fix for it
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>and ogfx just copied that general structure
10:10<V453000>nah it's cause the empty hopper is reused in multiple places
10:10<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure you find more wtfs in that area
10:11<V453000>they are one wtf on top of each other
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>that's what you get for organically grown software
10:12<V453000>it's not like factorio has no wtf :P
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10:13<Eddi|zuHause>but since openttd relies on the original graphics so much, there is no room for "let's redo this from scratch", even if someone wanted to do it
10:21<V453000>haha yeah true
10:23<V453000>I am not even going to wonder why is the order of engines so weird
10:23<Milek7>stupid windows cross compiling
10:23<V453000>like Lev3, Lev4, Lev1, Lev2
10:24<V453000>apparently the TTD dev couldn't even count numbers
10:24<Wolf01>nah, it's the same story of the lego porsche: sequential shift: 1-3-2-4
10:26<V453000>sadlfvsduhadspofasfladkduaoayg adofjsikaY
10:30<V453000>I think I will shit myself from the wtf
10:34<V453000>lol I really almost did
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10:39<V453000>the arctic trains were especially fun
10:39<V453000>firs one comes last, steamer somewhere in the middle, rest of the diesels seems random XD
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11:02<Milek7>testing AIs :P
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11:03<@Alberth>hi hi
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12:24<Wolf01> andy
12:25<andythenorth>been meaning to go for years
12:25<andythenorth>not far from where I live
12:28<Wolf01>nothing as funny as that here for hundreds of km :(
12:31<@Alberth>funny how you never visit such things close to your home :)
12:31<Wolf01>ok, there is a kart racetrack... but prices went up 250% in the latest 3 years
12:32<Wolf01>25€ for 3 laps is a theft
12:34<Wolf01>I started going there when it was 10€ about 5 years ago
12:42<andythenorth>secondary production isn’t divided by the number of output cargos
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12:45*andythenorth wonders what this will do
12:45<andythenorth>STORE_TEMP((economy==1 || economy==4) ? 2 : 1, var_num_output_cargos)
12:46<andythenorth>or rather, if it does what I think it should
12:46<Eddi|zuHause>depends on what you think it does
12:47<andythenorth>if economy is 1 or 4, store 2 in a temp register (the var for register number expands to 3)
12:48<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's probably what it does
12:48<andythenorth>ok so everything is good, up until the switch for ‘produce'
12:49*andythenorth can’t follow order of maths ops without putting all the brackets in explicitly :P
12:49<andythenorth>LOAD_PERM(var_leftover_cargo_1) / MAX_SUM_PROD_RATIO / LOAD_TEMP(var_num_output_cargos) * LOAD_PERM(var_ratio_cargo_1)
12:50<andythenorth>I assume that *isn’t* dividing correctly by var_num_output_cargos
12:50<andythenorth>because that’s the behaviour I see in game
12:50<andythenorth>the production is equivalent to dividing by 1
12:50<andythenorth>but sometimes should be half that
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12:52<Milek7>current breakdowns algorithm is broken :P
12:54<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: are you sure that a) your magic economy numbers 1 and 4 are right, b) that statement is actually executed in the path to the second statement?
12:55<@Rubidium>s/broken/not behaving like I expect/
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12:58<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: (b) is true (a) 4 is wrong, strong chance you’ve found the source of the bug
12:58*andythenorth needs to fix and test
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13:02<Samu>oh 240 companies
13:02<Samu>240 AIs
13:07<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: that is a very specific talent :)
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13:17<andythenorth>it would be more pleasing if nmlc summarised the lang errors
13:17<Milek7>Rubidium: yes
13:17<andythenorth>’27 languages don’t match english.lng'
13:17<andythenorth>I miss FIRS compile errors because of the lang output
13:18<Milek7>but anyone think it is good algorithm?
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13:57<frosch123>hmm, the wagons look quite square
13:57<frosch123>in 3rd gen
13:57<frosch123>maybe only in this orientation
13:58<andythenorth>the tankers? agreed
13:58<frosch123>yep, the tankers
13:58<andythenorth>they lack contrast
13:59<frosch123>maybe the grey part over the second red line yould be one pixel shorter or longer than the stuff below
14:00<andythenorth>I will fix them
14:00<andythenorth>they don’t need the red line at all, CC is shown by the cab
14:00<frosch123>the hoppers seem to suffer from too few pixels :)
14:01<andythenorth>not enough variety? Or something else?
14:01<frosch123>there are only 8 pixels that differ them from a boxvan
14:03<frosch123>maybe the back wall is too bright
14:03<frosch123>it should have a different shade than the side walls
14:04<andythenorth>these are based on an irl thing that lacks shape
14:04<andythenorth>I might need to fake them more
14:05<andythenorth>I already made the white one look more bulky compared to grey one
14:09<frosch123> <- original on left, modified on right
14:09<frosch123>though the red things on top confuse me
14:11<andythenorth>loading hatches ;)
14:11<andythenorth>the modification is better
14:11<andythenorth>removes a problem where the vehicle looks too thin
14:12<andythenorth>also the cab roof and the body don’t match. w.r.t contrast highlight
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14:20<argoneus>do you guys use timetables for passenger train loops?
14:21<argoneus>I'd rather avoid timetables
14:21<argoneus>but I'm not sure how
14:21<argoneus>they're a pain to set up and break easily
14:21<frosch123>best use for timetables it to only timetable loading time, not travel time
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14:21<frosch123>essentially the factorio loading time order
14:22<argoneus>I see
14:26<@Alberth>I set both, but travel time with a load of slack time, to handle breakdown and catching up
14:26<frosch123>V453000: don't worry, ottd did not patent the idea
14:26<V453000>how are you liking 0.13 frosch123 ?
14:27<frosch123>train building is easier
14:27<V453000>I was making huge use of the belts connectible to circuit networks
14:27<frosch123>i disliked the old smart inserter, so the new stuff is better
14:27<V453000>was using the hardcrafting mod which makes smelting much more co mplex
14:28<frosch123>i don't think i used any of the other new stuff yet
14:28<V453000>well I mainly like that now if you research inserter stack bonus, you don't need to explain the player that it only works between containers, not on belts
14:28<V453000>which is awesome now
14:30<frosch123>is there any use for the stack inserters except for trains?
14:30<frosch123>maybe when using express belts?
14:30<V453000>the wires/circuits factories can make use of them even with normal belts, but generally yeah - trains, express belts, logistic chests
14:31<frosch123>well, i wondered: there is fast inserter, filter inserer and stack inserter
14:31<frosch123>it feels somehow wrong to me to also have a filter stack inserter
14:31<frosch123>there is no filter long inserter either
14:31<V453000>well it only has 1 filter
14:31<frosch123>or no long stack inserter
14:31<V453000>and you usually want to make train loading/unloading filtered
14:32<V453000>well long inserters are kind of discouraged as it makes belt mayhem easier
14:32<V453000>so it's good to have them weak
14:32<V453000>it's like trains with low curve requirements in openttd :P
14:33<frosch123>i never used "mass cargo" in a mixed cargo wagon
14:33<V453000>yeah, it's more for things like if a wrong train stops in the station, if you drive a train there manually, ...
14:33<frosch123>so, i do not see the point of a filter stack inserter :)
14:33<V453000>just safety
14:33<V453000>with big train networks it is good to have idiot-proofing
14:34<frosch123>hmm, good point... i did that last game :p
14:34<frosch123>swapped iron and copper at some loading station
14:34<frosch123>messed up everything at the dropoff :p
14:34<V453000>well, there you go :P point for filtering
14:38<frosch123>also, i learned you can copy the engine color like you color receipes
14:38<V453000>yeah :)
14:39<frosch123>but setting up orders is still cumbersome :p
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14:39<frosch123>also i learned how to move a station
14:40<V453000>today I went through trains and road vehicles in a base set, taking the order they are in, and the sprite IDs
14:40<V453000>the WTF I witnessed is beyond stars
14:40<frosch123>use ogfx source
14:40<frosch123>but yes, vehicle are hopeless in baseset
14:40<V453000>well yeah, I used the huge ogfx file
14:40<frosch123>so are houses
14:40<V453000>but just decoding which is which and writing down the order is insane
14:41<frosch123>and some of the industries
14:41<V453000>best part was when I discovered how the fuck are extra wagons added
14:41<V453000>the climate dependent
14:41<MonkeyDrone>when you talk baseset, its from the original developers of the game?
14:41<frosch123>its from the 1994 original
14:41<MonkeyDrone>roger that
14:42<V453000>but I don't even mention ordering like Lev3, Lev4, Lev1, Lev2 , Kirby Paul Tank being after Ginzu, AsiaStar before T.I.M, ...
14:42<V453000>1998 probably?
14:42<V453000>1994 didn't have maglev etc
14:42<frosch123>V453000: anyway, when you come to houses: random houses are recolored with different recolor shemas to add variety
14:42<V453000>jesus fucking christ
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14:42<V453000>so that's why some zbase houses are fucked up by cc
14:43<V453000>can I just ... not provide 8bpp mask for the 32bpp things? :D
14:43<frosch123>V453000: 94 is tto, 96 is ttd
14:43<frosch123>most of the baseset is from tto
14:43<V453000>ok :)
14:44<frosch123>it even contains some sprites that are not used in ttd, but only were in tto
14:44<V453000>hm why did I think it was 98
14:44<frosch123>98 is starcraft and halflife
14:44<frosch123>it was a great year for games :)
14:44<V453000>wikinegria even says 1995
14:45<frosch123>maybe 96 was the windows version then?
14:45<frosch123>94 tto, 95 ttd, 96 ttdwin?
14:46<V453000>idk /care
14:46<V453000>95 would be dos?
14:48<Samu>2015, 2004
14:48<frosch123>obviously :)
14:48<frosch123>no game cared about windows in 95
14:48<frosch123>windows only had like cellphone games
14:50<V453000>I don't even remember those times anymore
14:50<V453000>I was a few years old, I must admit, but still
14:51<MonkeyDrone>you don't remember command prompt?
14:51<frosch123>all the good games used dos/4g back then
14:52<frosch123>like settlers 1, which was imho better than 2
14:52<MonkeyDrone>i live on cmd for a few years on the 486. I only remember Golden Axe and Mortal Kombat 3 thought
14:52<Wolf01>good old times
14:52*andythenorth makes more trams
14:53<MonkeyDrone>turn based games were very big iirc
14:53<MonkeyDrone>i played those mostly
14:54<V453000>we probably had win95 early, at which point I was like 6 years old
14:54<V453000>command line probably not very useful for illiterates :P
14:55<MonkeyDrone>wait wait wait, how old are you V?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>the first windows game i had was outpost
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>and that was before windows 95
14:56<MonkeyDrone>damn, i'm 31 in two months...
14:56<@Rubidium>not minesweeper and solitaire?
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>Rubidium: i'm not counting those
14:56<MonkeyDrone>i remember buying windows 3.1 on floppies
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>i don't remember BUYING a windows, ever...
14:57<MonkeyDrone>and also mcaffee antivirus came on 3 floppies, had to buy it because our computer got infected and it would play a midi for 2-3 minutes everytime we would turn it on before it went to dos.
14:58<MonkeyDrone>windows 9.5 was on quiet a few multiple floppies, we had one of those boxes in which you kept and collected your floppies all labeled up, heh
14:58<MonkeyDrone>first time i bought windows was 8.1 , was selling for $15, bought 3 copies, no regrets. Made life easier :P
15:00<V453000>I bought 7 and I am afraid of the day I will have to switch to win10 or more
15:01<MonkeyDrone>well you can just uprgrade it now to get your key hooked to W10 and go back to W7
15:01<MonkeyDrone>although W10 works pretty flawlessly
15:02<frosch123>Rubidium: win 3.0 had a reversi, which was so buggy (computer did not obey the rules), that it was removed in 3.1
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: you can just claim your free 10 key, and not install 10 until you are ready
15:11<frosch123>you generally do not install 10
15:11<frosch123>at some point it installs itself
15:12<MonkeyDrone>hehe, it did happen to a guy i know. All my machines, i upgraded it asap it came out. I guess i'm an early adopted once it's in the public
15:12<V453000>Eddi|zuHause: but I don't want it, ever
15:12<V453000>all the bullshit around dpi scaling and stuff
15:12<V453000>the fuck is that
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: and are you really sure about NEVER?
15:16<MonkeyDrone>rip V453000 , you will be missed
15:17<andythenorth>V453000: what is the dpi? problem
15:17<V453000>on laptops and high dpi screens windows forces weird shitty rescaling which looks horrible in about all applications
15:17<V453000>you can disable it, per each application
15:18<V453000>had enough at that point
15:19<MonkeyDrone>so happy my artistic skills are non existent, i don't think i've ever noticed issues like that
15:19<V453000>well blurry text is easy to detect
15:20<V453000>and I mean, if I add such a retarded option (who the fuck thought of that in the first place), it should be disable-able in the settings, not in compatibility options of each program
15:20<V453000>like wtf
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: it's the kind of problem you cannot unsee, but before that you can be blissfully ignorant about
15:21<Eddi|zuHause>V453000: i imagine there's at least a registry key to set the global default
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16:08<andythenorth>V453000: my laptop rescales everything for high DPI screen, I just got used to it
16:12<V453000>how did you manage that?
16:13<V453000> /envy
16:13<@peter1138>Probably by using a mac...
16:14<Milek7>windows also have dpi rescaling
16:14<andythenorth>everything looked too sharp for a few months
16:14<andythenorth>but then I got used to it
16:14<andythenorth>I had to change fonts and stuff to avoid the painful sharpness
16:14<andythenorth>literally hurts
16:15<andythenorth>I have seen linux on high DPI screen, looked fine, except where the icons aren’t scaled
16:16<Milek7>V453000: it won't blur if you set scaling to 100% in settings
16:16<Milek7>but that have downside that then even dpi aware applications will be small
16:18*andythenorth confused
16:23<andythenorth>my display is 2560x1600
16:23<andythenorth>and it runs equivalent to 1280x800
16:24<andythenorth>using 4 pixels to draw 1
16:24<andythenorth>there is no scaling problem :P
16:24<@Alberth>4 colour display :p
16:24<andythenorth>and nothing is small
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: there is no problem if it's a clean multiple
16:24<andythenorth>only downside is that screenshots are double-sized
16:24<andythenorth>and everything is too sharp
16:25<@Alberth>makes you wonder why you pay a shitload of money to run a low resolution screen
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16:25<andythenorth>it’s 13”, I don’t have built in magnifiers in my eyes :D
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>the old "double sized" patch for miniin had filters so it wouldn't just blow up the pixels, but smooth them out as well
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>dosbox has similar things
16:26*andythenorth also runs ottd at double size, for same “eyes don’t magnify” reason
16:27<@Alberth>technology pushing stuff you don't actually need :)
16:27<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is V just doing it wrong? :)
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16:29<Eddi|zuHause>V does loads of things wrong...
16:29<andythenorth>we all do
16:29<andythenorth>V453000 can haz fireless steam tram yet? o_O
16:30<V453000>didn't even attempt
16:30<V453000>got distracted by actually making BRIX happen
16:30<V453000>it might become reality soon :
16:31<andythenorth>lol wut etc
16:32<V453000>at least version 0.0.1, with more content than RAWR ever did
16:32<V453000>but for now, gnight
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18:05<Samu>2018, 2006
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18:30<argoneus>I just realized
18:30<argoneus>minmaxing this game is pointless
18:30<argoneus>it's about having fun and building nice things
18:30<argoneus>as money isn't an issue anywya
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>congratulations. you win at stating the obvious.
18:33<argoneus>I used to look up "best" designs
18:33<argoneus>the best design is the one you like the mots
18:34<argoneus>most, even
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18:47<Eddi|zuHause>i was never good with "looking up designs" for any game i played... i want to make my thing and see what comes out
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---Logclosed Fri Jul 22 00:00:10 2016