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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-08-13

---Logopened Sat Aug 13 00:00:46 2016
01:29<MonkeyDrone>allo
01:29<MonkeyDrone>wassup people in da house!
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05:03<Wolf01>o/
05:06<@Alberth>o/
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05:21<Wolf01>andy o/
05:21<andythenorth>o/
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05:40<Samu>nocab finally took too long to save, restarting
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05:48<andythenorth>Wolf01: the Arocs is a lot more performant (and fun) with a simple manual pneumatic pump
05:49<andythenorth>I tried with an airtank also, but it just adds latency
05:49<Wolf01>You need a double pump for the airtank
05:51<andythenorth>the motorised pump was crap in the air tech claw rig
05:51<andythenorth>and 25 years later, no better
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06:00<Wolf01>I'm thinking to convert even the new Volvo wheeled excavator to linear pistons, the arm is almost the same as the crawler claw one
06:08-!-Amix [~Amix2@239.65.45.31.customer.cdi.no] has joined #openttd
06:08<Amix>hi there
06:09<Amix>where do I eventualy find v0.3.3 of OpenTTD for Windows and OSX?
06:09<Amix>I am writing an crossplatform article etc
06:09<Amix>http://aminet.net/search?query=OpenTTD
06:10<Amix>the latest AmigaOS 68k version of the game that came out is v0.3.3
06:10<Amix>for AmigaOS 4.x its v0.4.7 it seems
06:11<Amix>MorphOS v0.6.3
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06:12<Amix>http://www.morphos-files.net/find.php?find=OpenTTD
06:13<Amix>Haiku v1.3.3-1
06:13<Amix>https://depot.haiku-os.org/multipage?natlangcode=en&repos=haikuports&arch=x86_gcc2&viewcrttyp=FEATURED&pkgcat=audio&srchexpr=openttd
06:13<Wolf01>http://ftp.snt.utwente.nl/pub/games/openttd/binaries/releases/index.html
06:15<Amix>ok.. amigaos 68k version is not there but on aminet only it seems
06:15<Amix>same with amigaos 4.x ppc
06:17<Amix>with vampire for classic amiga now out for A600, soon for A500, A2000 and A1200.. OpenTTD will work nicely on these machines also :)
06:18<Wolf01>andy, how could we work with the repository? A branch for each single feature just to keep patches which can apply to clean trunk and our trunk with all the patches applied?
06:21<Amix>you should make a system like Amiga Racer got
06:21<Amix>really
06:22<Amix>Amiga Racer live update in the game works for all versions. AmigaOS 4, MorphOS, Raspbian, Windows, MacOSX etc.. even if the game is simple, the live update function is brilliant
06:22<Amix>just throwing out ideas
06:27<Wolf01>Also could you please just add the "bin" folder (leaving out the lang folder) to the repository? So we can fix the resources problem :P
06:28<Wolf01>I would do it by myself, but I don't have any clue on how github works, I always used it in readonly mode
06:45<@Alberth>if you use git locally, github doesn't do anything, but making a nice web interface and storing the repo
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06:53<Wolf01>I use it with svn, so I don't even know if I can commit
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07:10<@Alberth>ah. I would expect you can (modulo access rights), how else are you going to work with svn in a project?
07:14<andythenorth>Wolf01: feature branches, and master
07:14<andythenorth>possibly a candidate branch, to which feature branches can be merged, before pushing them to master
07:15<andythenorth>we have no QA though, so candidate branch is overkill
07:15<andythenorth>and for this, everything will end up merged with everything else all the time anyway :P
07:15<andythenorth>I need to make a new repo, not broken?
07:15*andythenorth thinks so
07:18<Wolf01>If you want to make a new clean repo you can do it, I don't have changes (only the project includes)
07:18*andythenorth does it
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07:42<andythenorth>importing openttd repo to github
07:42<andythenorth>takes a while
07:43<Wolf01>:)
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08:02<andythenorth>Wolf01: https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/import
08:02<andythenorth>dunno if it works yet :)
08:04<Wolf01>Let's check it out
08:06<Samu>http://imgur.com/a/uszeP - cluelessplus upgading process is really weird
08:07<Samu>it's slow, it affects profits
08:07<Samu>it has a dedicated airport just for it
08:07<Samu>the airport is just too limited
08:11<Wolf01>Now it works
08:11*Wolf01 checkouts
08:13<andythenorth>Wolf01: builds and runs for me
08:15<Wolf01>Same
08:15<Wolf01>So... we could start working :P
08:16<andythenorth>I am checking you have commit rights on the repo
08:16<andythenorth>I made a ‘dev’ branch which we can merge feature branches into when needed
08:16<andythenorth>Wolf01: have you got a github user?
08:17<Wolf01>Yes, I do
08:17<Wolf01>Wolfolo
08:17<andythenorth>added you as collaborator
08:17<Wolf01>Done
08:19<Wolf01>Ok, I would start with a gui refactoring branch
08:19<Wolf01>Just to prepare the soil for the tram split
08:19<andythenorth>ok
08:20<andythenorth>we will need a ‘light rail’ icon :P
08:20<andythenorth>in TTD original style
08:21<andythenorth>fortunately I can draw a little bit
08:21<Wolf01>:D
08:23<Wolf01>I forked the project, so I think I'll don't mess up your copy if I try to commit something
08:23<andythenorth>ok
08:23<andythenorth>git is hard to mess up tbh
08:24<andythenorth>sometimes it requires reading the manual to get something back as intended
08:24<andythenorth>but otherwise very hard to break
08:24<andythenorth>the easiest way is ‘pasting commands from stack overflow’ :P
08:24<Wolf01>XD
08:25<Wolf01>Also I like to have more working copies, so I can fiddle with one, make a patch and move the changes to the other one
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08:27<andythenorth>branches, and stash
08:27<andythenorth>but it takes a while to trust git
08:27<andythenorth>especially if you’re coming straight from svn
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08:38<Wolf01>Shouldn't we put the specs in the wiki page?
08:41<andythenorth>good point
08:42*andythenorth hates wiki formatting :P
08:42<andythenorth>https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/wiki
08:43<andythenorth>will fix :P
08:44<andythenorth>fixed
08:49<Wolf01>good
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09:15<Wolf01>Uh... nice, I forgot how to apply a patch made for trunk to a branch
09:16<frosch123>you need to find the right -p parameter
09:17<frosch123>"-p 0" for svn-diff, "-p 1" for everything else
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09:17<Wolf01>No, not that, everybody suggests to merge from trunk... but I have a patch file
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09:20<andythenorth>just be in the branch
09:21<Wolf01>I think is better if I do multiple checkouts
09:24<Wolf01>I usually work like: checkout root, work in branches, merge to trunk and create tags from there
09:25<Wolf01>Wtf is wrong with tortoise? Trying to patch a working copy suggests that a non vcs folder is better suitable for the patch
09:26<Wolf01>Ok, the patch kept the "trunk" folder, so that's why can't do it
09:28<@peter1138>patch -p1
09:29<Wolf01>Yes, I found that, it's the git format, in svn-format it works
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>tortoise was always a bit weird with patches that are not an exact match
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>better use the comman line
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>+d
09:34<andythenorth>svn branches are the ones where it actually creates a new dir for the branch? o_O
09:34*andythenorth has not used it for a while...
09:35<Wolf01>yeah
09:35<andythenorth>how…quaint
09:35<@peter1138>unless it's git they're all shit
09:36<andythenorth>hg keeps me humble
09:36<andythenorth>much mistakes
09:37<andythenorth>hg probably means ‘heads grow'
09:37<andythenorth>because every time you want to push, you get a new heads warning
09:37<andythenorth>and always it’s another merge and commit :P
09:38<andythenorth>bbl
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09:49<Samu>1966, 2030, 2037, 1987, 2037, 2007, 2003, 1980
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09:56<Wolf01>I think I already made a mistake, I worked directly on the new branch, btw I don't want to make the dev branch dirty with changes which aren't directly related with the core feature
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10:43<Wolf01>Why is BUILD_DOCKS the only plural entry? the other are RAIL, ROAD, AIRPORT... since there is only one type of dock I expected the other to be plural :D
10:46<frosch123>maybe to compensate that there is only one type of dock
10:46<frosch123>while there are different station types for the rest
10:56<Wolf01>The VS rename feature is a bit weird... Can't find references of a variable which is declared just some lines above and used in the 3 lines below
10:56<Samu>SimpleAI has the best profits currently
10:57<Wolf01>Switching the search from "current project" to "entire solution (encluding external items)" seem to work
10:57<Wolf01>It's the same document :/
10:59<Samu>it seems NoCAB does better than NoNoCAB, but i could be wrong
10:59<Samu>will have to wait for 2051
10:59<@Alberth>only 35 years from now!
11:05<Wolf01>Error LNK2019 unresolved external symbol "struct Window * __fastcall ShowBuildLtRailToolbar(enum RoadType)" (?ShowBuildLtRailToolbar@@YIPAUWindow@@W4RoadType@@@Z) referenced in function "enum CallBackFunction __fastcall MenuClickBuildLtRail(int)" (?MenuClickBuildLtRail@@YI?AW4CallBackFunction@@H@Z) openttd E:\progetti\OpenTTD\notroadtypes_wolfolo\branches\gui\projects\toolbar_gui.obj 1
11:05<Wolf01>Any help on this?
11:05<Wolf01>It looks everything ok
11:06<Wolf01>It's exactly the same as the roadtype, I think the problem is elsewhere
11:20<Wolf01>Found, it was in another document...
11:20<@Alberth>how useful to report an error like that then :)
11:21<Wolf01>I had to cross reference it with the ShowBuildRoadToolbar function :|
11:22<Wolf01>I missed to replace one entry from "tram" to "ltrail"
11:22<Wolf01>Clearly for VS was everything ok, but the linker said not :P
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>try to make sure the project is up to date (by running projects/generate[.vbs])
11:25-!-umgeher_ [~umgeher@177.9.162.194] has joined #openttd
11:25<Eddi|zuHause>also try to make sure you're running the same program that you are editing :p
11:28<Samu>nobody is joining my servers
11:28<Samu>i guess toyland is the culprit
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11:28<Samu>ship servers actually had some compliments
11:28<Samu>until it started slowing down
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11:30<Samu>id like to help somewhere about pathfinding for ships, but all i can do is mere suggestions :(
11:31<Samu>main problem is the amount of cpu usage for lost ships, there should be a way to make it less intensive
11:32<Samu>if they're lost, don't make them search as often if they're lost for a long time
11:39<Wolf01>Oh, found more hardcoded stuff
11:40<Wolf01>case 4: case 8: case 15: case 19: case 21: case 26: hor->Add(new NWidgetSpacer(0, 0)); break;
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>magic numbers!
11:41<@Alberth>death to all numbers :p
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>although the last 3 are "wrong" :p
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>should be 16,23,42 :)
11:41<Wolf01>I didn't understand why it put the spacer between the zoom buttons
11:42<Wolf01>42?
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>those are the "lost" numbers
11:43<Wolf01>Why do I still read what are you writing? :D
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>:p
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>rule of thumb: you can ignore any line that ends with a smilie :p
11:44<Wolf01>I'll add some more helpers to the widgets enum
11:46<Wolf01>WID_TN_CONSTRUCTION_TOOLS_START, ///< Helper for the offset of the construction tools
11:46<Wolf01>WID_TN_RAILS = WID_TN_CONSTRUCTION_TOOLS_START, ///< Rail building menu.
11:46<Wolf01>It seem too long, any suggestion?
11:46<Wolf01>BUILD_TOOLS?
11:46<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't seem like something one would be really concerned about
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>be more descriptive seems like the better alternative
11:47<Wolf01>In this exact place is not a problem, but in the previous pasted one it might be
11:47<Eddi|zuHause>just put all the cases on different lines
11:48<Wolf01>Btw, since other entries refer as "building tools" I think I'll go with BUILD_TOOLS_START
11:48<Wolf01>Or BUILDING_
11:49<Wolf01>I'm wondering how many other magic numbers there are around, it's difficult to search them all
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12:06<@Alberth>WID_TN_TOOLS_START
12:07<Wolf01>Too late, it's already in 1.6.2
12:07<@Alberth>aw :(
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12:10<Wolf01>It's shorter, but I think I'll go with the "BUILDING_" version, just "TOOLS" is too generic
12:10<Wolf01>They are all "tools", it's a toolbar
12:13<Samu>rename tools to toolbar
12:14<Wolf01>Which doesn't add anything new to the concept
12:17<Samu>in 3 years, 2 aircraft ais reach 2051
12:17<Samu>chopper and cluelessplus
12:17<Wolf01>Ok, now I just need to make the roadveh window to work for trams and the first step is done
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12:19<Wolf01>Only because it breaks the ships and aircraft lists
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13:08<MonkeyDrone>when the fuck is summer going to end?
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13:09<Wolf01>1.5-2.5 months
13:09<Wolf01>o/ andy
13:09<MonkeyDrone>too far away :(
13:11<andythenorth>lo
13:13<@Alberth>o/
13:16<andythenorth>Wolf01: patched anything yet? o_O
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13:17<Wolf01>Yeah, some refactoring for the gui
13:22<Wolf01>Before proceeding I would like to define the names to use, I think the vanilla code it's already weird enough
13:23<Wolf01>Are you sure to rename RoadType to StreetType after the split?
13:26<@Alberth>notStreetTypes ?
13:29<Wolf01>And I'm not really convinced about catenary, I think it should be a common feature, do multiple catenaries exist?
13:38<Samu>starting terron and syntrans
13:42<Samu>hmm syntrans seems not building
13:43<sim-al2>Well, hypothetically, there's trolley-bus and three-phase caternary, which have two wires
13:44<Wolf01>At the same time?
13:45<sim-al2>Errr, well they are seperate systems, but the visual apparence would be the same
13:45<Wolf01>Which could result really confusing in ottd
13:46<andythenorth>Wolf01: the proposal (iirc) is to keep RoadType for the structure on the tile
13:46<sim-al2>I don't think there were many three-phase trams, but there's tons of trolleybuses around the world
13:46<andythenorth>StreetType is the route type for RVs, not trams
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13:46<andythenorth>I have some irc notes, looking now
13:47<andythenorth>“I think keeping RoadType and being able to unpack it to StreetType and TramType is preferable”
13:48<Wolf01>Ok, but there are some calculation involved, like some <<4 etc
13:48<andythenorth>I’m not sure how it pans out in code
13:49<andythenorth>but we need different terms, or we can’t talk sensibly :)
13:49<andythenorth>the tile has to have a concept of [Something]Type
13:49<andythenorth>and we have to have a name for the ‘not tram’ type of route
13:49<Samu>syntrans wants to build road vehicles before making aircraft, t.t
13:50<andythenorth>“no design survives first commit” :P
13:50<Wolf01>Meanwhile I split the road and tram building toolbars, the station interface for tram still shows the disabled bays
13:51<Samu>next AI to reach 2051 is dictatorai
13:51<Wolf01>I would like to split the vehicles too, but I better not touch it, I already made saveload angry
13:52<andythenorth>frosch recommended we could just leave vehicles alone
13:52<andythenorth>no particular gain by splitting
13:52<Wolf01>Yeah, I came to the same conclusion
13:53<Wolf01>TMWFTLB
13:53<Wolf01>The construction toolbars needed to be split, up to 32 different types in a dropdown will be extremely confusing :D
13:56<Wolf01>Now, I worked in the branch/gui, and I think I'll work there for some more time to clean out and fix the gui a bit more, then we could merge it on the branch/dev
13:58<andythenorth>w.r.t catenary
13:58<andythenorth>I think drawing both types will be a mess
13:58<andythenorth>but if only drawing one, which one wins?
13:58<Wolf01>It's like drawing pavements
13:59<Wolf01>Or the fences
14:01<Wolf01>Maybe some types should be mutually exclusive
14:01<Wolf01>Eg. you cannot have 2 catenaries on the same tile, even a crossing
14:02<andythenorth>I considered that, but eh, arbitrary restrictions :D
14:02<Wolf01>You need to think better for your routes
14:02<andythenorth>combinatorial explosion
14:02<andythenorth>we’d need a label system ;P
14:02<andythenorth>and a forum thread
14:02<andythenorth>and then a split in the community about two opposing schemas
14:02<Wolf01>It adds difficulty to your puzzle game (V's words) XD
14:02<andythenorth>ideological schism
14:03<andythenorth>apparently I wrote this
14:03<andythenorth>“Where both types draw catenary, OpenTTD will draw all the catenary. If authors don’t like this, they should detect other types by label and special case catenary accordingly.”
14:03<Wolf01>Also dedicated lanes for trams, which mean the RVs are always on the overtaking lane
14:04<Wolf01>And this will work only with oneway roads!
14:04<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i said back then that that was a pretty dumb approach
14:05<andythenorth>the other options are (1) draw all catenary (2) one type always wins?
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>my favourite would be an option where one will win, but gives the NewGRF some interface to set priorities
14:07<Eddi|zuHause>including the option to provide a combined sprite
14:08<Wolf01>http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/a4ae999fb4b44c2597f8784437de02fe/a-route-5-tram-in-rome-f4p7eh.jpg how do you handle a road here? Cars shouldn't be able to travel in this piece (which is a tram stop)
14:08<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: that's just a variant on tram-with-pavement?
14:09<Eddi|zuHause>in my ideal world, tram-with-road would have a lower speed limit than separate tram
14:10<Wolf01>Usually yes, you don't see trams speeding at 70kmh between cars
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>preferably with a tram type that forbids putting a road on the same trackbit, only on orthogonal ones
14:11<Wolf01>http://previews.123rf.com/images/sandoe/sandoe0706/sandoe070600011/1052768-Tram-track-Stock-Photo.jpg <-
14:12<Eddi|zuHause>i don't see how you can sanely implement this type of embedded grade separation in openttd, except for sim city 4-style puzzle pieces
14:12<Wolf01>That's the point I'm trying to figure out Eddi, allowing every combination is not possible, at least not good looking or really confusing
14:14<Eddi|zuHause>which is probably out of scope for this patch
14:14<Wolf01>http://citytransport.info/NotMine/MB_O_405_Mannheim_100_1727a.jpg We'll end up doing something like this for the start
14:15<Wolf01>And we are really lucky we don't have traffic in the game
14:16<Wolf01>http://citytransport.info/Share.htm
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>so, what is the exact problem we're trying to solve right now? drawing multiple layers of infrastructure on top of each other? defining ways how combination of layers can be inhibited? allowing different usage of lanes? [reqires state machines, probably]
14:29<frosch123>rule 37: no statemachines
14:34<Eddi|zuHause>that's why i said "out of scope" earlier
14:45<andythenorth>simples
14:45<andythenorth>multiple tram types
14:45<andythenorth>multiple street types
14:45<andythenorth>max 1 of each per tile
14:45<andythenorth>is all
14:49<andythenorth>no changes to vehicles
14:50<andythenorth>no banning combinations
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15:04<Wolf01>What's wrong with statemachines frosch123?
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15:17<andythenorth>nothing, but they’re vapourware :)
15:17<andythenorth>never will happen
15:33<Samu>teshinet is another ai that can't build aircraft without building road vehicles first :(
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15:36<Wolf01>andythenorth, committed the split
15:38<andythenorth>Wolf01: which repo?
15:38<Wolf01>branches/gui
15:38<andythenorth>found it
15:39*andythenorth wonders how pull requests work
15:39<andythenorth>figuring it out
15:39*andythenorth clicked some buttons
15:42<Wolf01>Emails arrived
15:42<Wolf01>Is world a better place now?
15:44<andythenorth>works for me
15:44<andythenorth>need to draw an icon
15:45*andythenorth wants to add tram to hotkey.cfg
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15:48<Wolf01>You need to move some other hotkeys
15:49<Wolf01>I don't know if is enough to just put a value for "build_ltrail"
15:50<andythenorth>so autoroad gets me autoroad or autoltrail, depending which toolbar is open
15:51<andythenorth>triggered an assert :)
15:51<Wolf01>For me it gives only autorail because it's the standard config
15:51<andythenorth>I am good at testing :)
15:51<Wolf01>:D
15:52<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/poiilzp1s
15:52<andythenorth>press ‘8’ with tram build toolbar open
15:53<Wolf01>Nice one, I only use 4 hotkeys: x, a, d, s
15:54<andythenorth>8 is one-way
15:54<andythenorth>I was just mashing keys to see what happened
15:54<Wolf01>Yes, I removed it, no sense to have it for trams
15:54<andythenorth>agreed
15:54<andythenorth>it’s very little use for normal RVs either, but that horse has left the stable
15:57<Wolf01>I think the hotkey is defined even for the ltrail toolbar
15:57<Wolf01>Yup, I need to split the enum of the widgets too
15:58<Wolf01>Meh, I forgot to change the name of the class too, it's still BuildTramToolbarWindow
16:00<Samu>holy crap, synaptic just built aircraft, that surprised me
16:00<Samu>was not expecting it
16:01<Wolf01>Uh oh, there are a lot of references in the GS too
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16:02<Wolf01>We'll break everything
16:03<andythenorth>hmm
16:03<andythenorth>frosch advised something about that before
16:04<andythenorth>before writing any spec, I searched all the places RoadType is used
16:04<andythenorth>GS, AI, cost calculations, etc
16:04<andythenorth>pathfinding
16:05<andythenorth>Wolf01: what breaks in GS just from toolbar split?
16:05<Wolf01>I think GS is not able to build trams
16:07<andythenorth>$someone should write a GS as a test suite
16:07<andythenorth>closest thing we have to Selenium
16:09<frosch123>gs has access to all of the gui to allow stuff like the tutorial
16:09<frosch123>no need to bother about that, you can just regenerate the gs api with src/scripts/api/generate_widget.sh
16:10<Wolf01>Oh, good
16:10<andythenorth>Wolf01: ^ that was the thing frosch advised about before I think :)
16:10<Samu>flyspray is being spammed
16:10<Samu>https://bugs.openttd.org/
16:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: tomorrow I will try and get an icon drawn
16:36<Wolf01>Good, I'm fixing the toolbar now
16:39<Wolf01>I need to get rid of some crashes :P
16:45<sim-al2>Weird, the spam is all the same phone number with what I assume are supposed to be keywords
16:46<sim-al2>It appears to all over the major bugtrackers too
16:48<andythenorth>maybe it’s the singularity
16:48<andythenorth>meanwhile, I have this drawn https://manxelectricrailway.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/12_dc_1904.jpg?w=450&h=338
16:48<andythenorth>but I need a 1950s version
16:48<andythenorth>fake
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16:49<andythenorth>keep it as a tram, but modernised? Or engine + two wagons?
16:52<andythenorth>tomorrow can decide
16:52*andythenorth sleep
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16:55<argoneus>good evening train friends
16:55<Wolf01>o/
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17:10<supermop>yo
17:23<Samu>teshinet bankrupted
17:23<Samu>starting tracai
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20:26<Samu>rythorn airline ai reached 2051
20:26<Samu>now starting Trans
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20:55<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, how do i edit a .lnk file in wine?
20:59<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Aug 14 00:00:47 2016