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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-08-14

---Logopened Sun Aug 14 00:00:47 2016
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04:08<Samu>1993, 1967, 1982, 2006, 1981, 1954, 2047, 1988
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04:57<andythenorth>extra toolbar sprites would go in media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png?
04:57<andythenorth>or in objs/[same]
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05:01<frosch123>objs/ is generated i guess
05:01<frosch123>media/ is source
05:02<andythenorth>ok ta
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05:19<idl0r>hey guys, is there some kind of howto for the newgrf stuff? there's so many separate packages and i'm not sure which one i'd need to have anything replaced it so far
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05:44<idl0r>hm, ok, seems to be not that easy :(
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05:53<Wolf01>I like getting up with a bad headache, it adds some wtf to the life
05:53<@Alberth>right :p
05:53<Wolf01>Especially when it's not a hangover
05:54<@Alberth>hmm, that eliminates a simple way to fix your preference :p
05:55<Wolf01>That's why it adds the wtf
05:57<Samu> //I have better things to do than changing HasNext to IsEnd all over my code because OpenTTD devs //suddenly decided that former one is somehow better (IMHO it is worse due to more complex contruction - it requires !)
05:57<Samu>what does this mean?
05:57<@Alberth>not sleeping long enough might work
05:58<Wolf01>I got up at 8.20
05:58<Samu>AIAI crashes because there's something wrong when its listing his vehicles
05:58<Samu>what is HasNext and IsEnd?
05:59<@Alberth>functions to detect end of a list
05:59<@Alberth>no idea how they are different, but apparently, they are, and the author of that AI wasn't too hapy about it
06:00<Samu>AIVehicleList.HasNext <-
06:01<Samu>i'm unsure where the error is
06:01<Samu>the ai wants to sell unprofitable vehicles, it seems there's 46 to sell
06:01<Samu>on the 26th one it crashed
06:01<Samu>with invalid vehicle
06:02<Samu>i set airplanes not to crash
06:02<Samu>i set permanent airports
06:02<@Alberth>I don't know where the error is either
06:02<Samu>i set permanent vehicle models
06:03<@Alberth>but it's in the details with how the list is handled, perhaps
06:03<Samu>i dunno how to debug this
06:04<Samu>46 should be sold, on the 22th it crashed, sorry, not 26th
06:04<@Alberth>debugging is useless at this time
06:04<@Alberth>it uses HasNext, which for some reason is not the solution that should be used
06:04<@Alberth>so that's what needs to be changed first, before you can even decide whether a bug exists at all
06:05<@Alberth>apparently the author has no time to do that, as he stated
06:06<Samu>it's a common error :( wish i could fix it
06:07<Samu>author is Kogut
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06:25<Samu>for (local vehicle_id = vehicle_list.Begin(); vehicle_list.HasNext(); vehicle_id = vehicle_list.Next()) {
06:25<Samu>i see the HasNext
06:27<Samu>if(AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle(vehicle_id)) if(AIAI.sellVehicle(vehicle_id, "unprofitable")) counter++;
06:27<Samu>the vehicle is valid, then he tries AIAI.sellVehicle
06:28<Samu>but suddenly it's invalid
06:32<Wolf01>There's a nice problem with looping through a list which is changing, the implementation is really wrong
06:33<Wolf01>I usually put indexes in another list and then remove the items from the first list looping the indexes list
06:34<@Alberth>hmm, indexes tend to change when you change a list :p
06:34<Wolf01>Start from the end
06:34<@Alberth>I tend to make a new list with elements I want to keep
06:35<@Alberth>and replace the old list by the new one
06:35<Wolf01>Good implementation, but if you have references to object usually is a problem
06:36<Wolf01>Btw, isn't there a foreach construct? It should automatically handle the removing of items
06:37<Wolf01>(not every language does, but it has few problems than a plain for)
06:37<Samu>function AIAI::sellVehicle(vehicle_id, why) { bla; bla; AIVehicle.SetName(vehicle_id, "for sell " + why); bla; }
06:37<Samu>when it sets the name the vehicle_id is invalid
06:40<Samu>i don't understand this file
06:40<Samu>AIVehicle.SetName_ <- AIVehicle.SetName AIVehicle.SetName <- function (vehicle_id, string) { if(!AIVehicle.IsValidVehicle(vehicle_id)) { abort("Invalid vehicle " + vehicle_id); }
06:41<Samu>and then AIAI aborts with a crash
06:42<@Alberth>there is a foreach-like construct, don't know if it handles removal too
06:44<@Alberth>Samu: it suggests the vehicle doesn't exist at the time of the call, maybe it already sold it?
06:45<Samu>that's what I think too
06:45<Samu>i disabled airplanes crashes
06:45<Samu>only AI can sell it, not any external event
06:46<@Alberth>Wolf01: references to an object are not a problem, the object is not placed inside the list, the list has only a reference, so copying it over to another list does not move the object
06:46<@Alberth>just like Java and Python (and presumably C#)
06:46<Samu>vehicle_id doesn't match the aircraft number
06:47<@Alberth>they don't indeed
06:47<Samu>it's some internal number
06:47<Samu>he had 800 aircraft if i remember
06:48<@Alberth>so check that after selling a vehicle, its id is really not in the list any more
06:49<@Alberth>if it is, the list update done during selling is broken
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06:49<Wolf01>Alberth, I did that with my old render list, to remove the objects which were already rendered, I lost the reference of the entire list, not the objects inside the list
06:51<@Alberth>ieks :)
06:51<@Alberth>some protection against in-place modification I guess
06:53<@Alberth>a bad case of "we don't care what you do, but you're not going to crash our VM" :p
06:53<Wolf01>listA.foreach(i => { if (i.rendered == false) listB.add(i); }); listA = listB; threw "wtf are you doing exception"
06:54<Samu>what is <- doing?
06:54<@Alberth>new a new entry
06:54<Samu>AIVehicleList.HasNext <- function() { return !this.IsEnd(); //I have better things to do than changing HasNext to IsEnd all over my code because OpenTTD devs //suddenly decided that former one is somehow better (IMHO it is worse due to more complex contruction - it requires !) }
06:55<@Alberth>lol :p
06:55<Samu>does it change AIVehicleList.HasNext to AIVehicleList.!IsEnd()
06:55<@Alberth>It adds a "HasNext" function, that does "!this.IsEnd()"
06:57<@Alberth>but my guess is that the old HasNext is not the same as !this.IsEnd()
06:57<@Alberth>perhaps almost the same, but not exactly
06:58<@Alberth>it may not make a difference in this case though
07:01<Samu>how does that vehicle_id counter works?
07:03<Samu>local vehicle_id
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07:03<Samu>must find the way it builds the list
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07:08<Samu>for (local vehicle_id = vehicle_list.Begin(); vehicle_list.HasNext(); vehicle_id = vehicle_list.Next())
07:09<Samu>for (local vehicle_id = vehicle_list.Begin(); vehicle_list.!this.IsEnd(); vehicle_id = vehicle_list.Next())
07:09<Samu>grr what's in the list
07:09<Samu>how do i debug an ai?
07:10<Samu>with visual studio
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08:11<idl0r>is it planned to make newgrf/32bit graphics default one day?
08:30<MonkeyDrone>idl0r: i doubt it. There is no 'official' 32bpp graphics for the game yet.
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09:46<Samu>syntrans has trouble managing airport capacity, there's too many aircraft waiting in depots and flying around the airports
09:46<Samu>profits are diminishing, let's see if he can survive
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09:49<Samu>1400 out of 2800 are profiting
09:49<Samu>that's a ~50% profit ratio
09:49<Samu>quite bad in comparison with the other ais
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10:35<Wolf01>Back to work, I should try to understand why the station buttons don't work as intended
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10:37<Wolf01>But even before that, why it disables the tunnel button and makes the bridge building the tunnel o_O
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10:38<ST2>you can call it an easter egg feature ;)
10:43<Wolf01>Who is in charge for the gui?
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10:43<Wolf01>This stuff changed a lot since transparency toolbar
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10:45<@Alberth>toolbar is quite magic iirc :)
10:45<@Alberth>I didn't convert it, I think
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11:00<Wolf01>Also, what are the right steps to add new source files to the project?
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11:05<frosch123>add to source.list
11:06<frosch123>run projects/generate
11:11<Wolf01>Ok, it seem to work now
11:11<Wolf01>Thx frosch123
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11:37<Wolf01>Since I'm tired to define every time the includes and libraries each time I regenerate the projects, where could I set them? It suggests a user project file, which is there, but I don't really know how to edit it
11:40<Wolf01>Meh... The .user file is a legacy feature and we recommend that you delete it in order to keep properties properly grouped according to configuration/platform.
11:40<Wolf01>Why does it suggest to use it then?
11:44<@Alberth>the legacy explanation does not point what to do instead?
11:44<Wolf01>Yes, the project directories to keep all in one place
11:45<@Alberth>silly system to assume it can decide your project layout :p
11:46<andythenorth>so for light rail toolbar icon, I thought maybe tracks, on a grey background?
11:46<Wolf01>I should put the OTTD_essentials in the VC directories
11:46<Wolf01>A double set of tracks?
11:47<Wolf01>Btw, the environment variable will get overwritten by VC, so it's no use
11:47<Wolf01>I could add new ones, but still the same problem
11:47<andythenorth>double tracks is good point
11:48*andythenorth had better look how openttd.grf is made
11:49<Wolf01>VS uses these 2 variables: VC_IncludePath and VC_LibraryPath_x86
11:52<andythenorth>are the libpng color profile warnings always there for openttd.grf?
11:52<andythenorth>or did I just cause them?
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11:57<andythenorth>so the numbers in openttdgui.png aren’t the sprite number
11:58*andythenorth counts, using fingers
12:00<Wolf01>Do you have enough of them?
12:01<Wolf01>Ok, I fixed the toolbar
12:01<Wolf01>Now the station orientation picker
12:01<Wolf01>Then, commit
12:02<frosch123>andythenorth: OPENTTD_SPRITE_COUNT <- that is all you need to know
12:02<frosch123>static const SpriteID SPR_IMG_CARGOFLOW = SPR_OPENTTD_BASE + 174; <- just add new sprites after that
12:02<andythenorth>yeah I found that :)
12:02<andythenorth>the nfo was fine
12:03<andythenorth>but cargo flow is image 177 on the spritesheet
12:03<andythenorth>I know why they don’t match, was just confusing for a moment
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12:06*andythenorth is now an openttd programmer :P
12:08<frosch123>a devlolper?
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12:09<andythenorth>devloloper yes
12:09<andythenorth>also can’t count :P
12:09<andythenorth>been obiwan both sides of the sprite I want
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12:12<@Alberth>as devloploper, you shouldn't count yourself, you tell your computer to do that instead
12:13<andythenorth>I am trying
12:13<andythenorth>but I have to tell it what number to count to :P
12:13<@Alberth>good point :p
12:13<Wolf01>C:\Program Files (x86)\Windows Kits\8.1\Include\shared\fttypes.h(38): error C4430: missing type specifier - int assumed. Note: C++ does not support default-int (compiling source file ..\src\crashlog.cpp)
12:14<Wolf01>Changed an enum value and recompiled, 40000 errors
12:14<Wolf01>Not even related to OTTD
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12:15<@Alberth>so likely, it fails to understand your new enum :p
12:15<frosch123>Wolf01: missing semicolon?
12:15<frosch123>anyway, the error is about some function not having a return type
12:15<@Alberth>and then runs off into nowhere
12:16<Wolf01>Maybe, but no errors in the ide
12:16<frosch123>as in "void" missing or something
12:16<@Alberth>likely, the IDE uses the same misguided compiler diagnostics :p
12:16<frosch123>well, before ansi-c from 89, there was this silly thing called "c", where everything was int
12:17<andythenorth>hmm, can’t get my sprite to show anything except transparent
12:17*andythenorth investigates
12:22<frosch123>well, if c++ was a less ambiguous language, the compiler would be able to give a better error
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12:22<frosch123>your best choice is to look for unbalanced { } and ;
12:23<Wolf01>I did not touch anything on the sources
12:23<Wolf01>It compiled before the last change
12:24<Wolf01>I only added " = 6" to an enum value
12:24<Wolf01>Between the name and the comma
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12:32<Wolf01>Ok, shit happened on freetype
12:33<Samu>i hate azmodan
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12:33<Samu>i hate it when i can't run away from heroes without diyng
12:33<Samu>it's stupid
12:33<Samu>heroes that attack while moving
12:34<Samu>stupid design, but whatever... nobody cares here
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12:36<andythenorth>first attempt at light rail icon
12:36<andythenorth>bit too heavy
12:36<Wolf01>Remove the sleepers?
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12:41<andythenorth>probably too contrasty
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12:41<Wolf01>Put a wider road under it
12:42<V453000>wtf is that :D
12:42<V453000>andythenorth: ?
12:42<andythenorth>has to be 16px to match other toolbar sprites
12:42<V453000>is that some secret tram gui button or ?
12:43<andythenorth>not better
12:43<andythenorth>it’s over-lit imho
12:44<@Alberth>normal rail compensates with the dark wood
12:45<@Alberth>add dark road?
12:57<frosch123>you can see two things in that icon
12:57<frosch123>either it is two tracks next to each other
12:58<frosch123>or it is one track "sunken" into the road
12:58<frosch123>but for the latter the the spacing does not quite work
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12:58<Samu>i hate gul'dan
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12:58<Samu>his damage is retarded
12:58<Samu>even chen can't tank it
12:59<frosch123> <- the track for trams looks different than for trains
12:59<andythenorth>of the four so far, which is the best?
13:00<andythenorth>V453000 also? ^
13:00<frosch123>to me all of them look like one track instead of two
13:01<Samu>oh, adding a 5th vehicle type? cool :o
13:01<andythenorth>yes, I can see that too
13:01<frosch123>i am not sure, whether to avoid or embrace that :)
13:01<andythenorth>my first idea was to show one set of rails only
13:02<andythenorth>at the size of train tracks
13:02<andythenorth>but that’s not what you actually build
13:03<Wolf01>If you draw narrow tracks?
13:05<frosch123> <- modified 2
13:06<Wolf01>The 5 is nice, but I'm not a fan of such rounded angles
13:06<andythenorth>it’s too train-like, I’ll adjust
13:06<andythenorth>frosch123: that kind of works also
13:07<andythenorth>so it’s 5 (single track) or 2f (two narrow tracks)
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13:07<frosch123>try 5 with the road-icon outline
13:07<Wolf01>5 with narrow tracks and more squared?
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13:11<andythenorth>probably the road is a bit dark
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think it works well with only one track
13:12<andythenorth>I am thinking same
13:12<andythenorth>it’s visually stronger, but I am going to try modifying 2f
13:13<frosch123>i prefer 1 track
13:13<andythenorth>but with 2 small tracks, it still looks like one track :P
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13:25<andythenorth>was too lit before
13:25<andythenorth>road icon is not very lit
13:28<andythenorth>are the contents of bin/ and media/ supposed to be under vcs or not?
13:28*andythenorth might need to edit .gitignore
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13:29<Eddi|zuHause>some of them
13:29<andythenorth>the gitignore for this is….detailed
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>basically, everything that is not created by make should be in the repo
13:29<Samu>i think i found a bug in "Detailed performance rating" window. The amount of money in the bank says £2,147 M, but NoNoCAB already has £3,2 M
13:30<andythenorth>^ legit to commit, or not ?
13:30<frosch123>there is an "official" .gitignore in ottd svn
13:30<frosch123>does that not work?
13:30<andythenorth>that’s what we’re figuring out :)
13:30<andythenorth>I have it
13:33<Samu>flyspray doesn't let me select 1.6.1
13:33<Samu>only 1.6.1-rc1
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13:36<Samu>bug reported
13:37<V453000>omg the trains are getting cuter every minute
13:38<Wolf01>Regenerating the projects worked O_O
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13:45<andythenorth>Wolf01: I pushed the icon to the dev branch
13:46<andythenorth>I will improve it more in future, need to see it in game for a while
13:46<Wolf01>The #7?
13:47<Wolf01>Btw, you could have made it large as the rail one
13:47<andythenorth>it’s same dimensions
13:47<Wolf01>No, it's not
13:47<andythenorth>oh :(
13:47<Wolf01>Rail one is 4px larger
13:47<Wolf01>Also, diner
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14:09<Wolf01>Sister's diner is the best one :D
14:10<Wolf01>At least she cooks japanese food
14:10<Wolf01>(or the best imitation we can achieve with our ingredients)
14:11<Wolf01>Now, back on the station picker :|
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14:13<Wolf01>The widgets seem to work right, but the command is wrong, maybe it's trying to build road bays instead of drive-throught stops
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14:34<Wolf01>I really don't understand how widgets are used in the gui, there's an enum with the widgets and seem to be used for the positions, but then the widget tree introduces some panels and the position are all changed
14:35<Wolf01>So, if I want to lower a widget, how can I get the right widget index?
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14:39<@Alberth>enum only lists the widgets that exist, the tree decides positions etc
14:40<Wolf01>this->LowerWidget(_road_station_picker_orientation + WID_BLRS_STATION_X); so taking this as example, I don't really know where the WID_BLRS_STATION_X is placed
14:41<@Alberth>you don't need to
14:41<Wolf01>I think I could safely remove the orientation var, as the trams only have it set as DIAGDIR_END
14:41<@Alberth>there is a WID_BLRS_STATION_X and a WID_BLRS_STATION_Y after it
14:42<@Alberth>the _road_station_picker_orientation is 0/1, so it selects one of the widgets
14:42<Wolf01>It's always 4
14:42<@Alberth>just just provide the numeric value in the widget enum
14:43<@Alberth>tree handles position and dirtying etc
14:43<Wolf01>At least at the gui initialization it is, the original check was if (_cur_roadtype == ROADTYPE_TRAM && _road_station_picker_orientation < DIAGDIR_END) {
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14:43<@Alberth>condition for lowering?
14:44<Wolf01>That was used to reset the orientation on opening the tram station gui
14:45<Wolf01>Because the road could have another orientation, but on tram stations those are disabled
14:45<andythenorth>+1 to removing the redundant tram stops
14:45<andythenorth>can’t build drive-in
14:45<Wolf01>Already removed, that's why it gives me headache
14:46<andythenorth>ha :)
14:46<andythenorth>also the rail icon *is* bigger :(
14:46*andythenorth counted wrong
14:47<Wolf01>_road_station_picker_orientation = (DiagDirection)(widget - WID_BLRS_STATION_X); <- then it does this when changing the orientation, but the initialization was wrong
14:47<Wolf01>It should be initialized to 0 and not DIAGDIR_END
14:48<Wolf01>So, DIAGDIR_BEGIN
14:49<Wolf01>The problem is that it gets confusing, as "1" is DIAGDIR_SE (even "0" is DIAGDIR_NE)
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14:50<Wolf01>This mean that DIAGDIR is not the right enum to use in this case
14:50<@Alberth>src/widgets/road_widget.h is the list widgets
14:51<Wolf01>I should use Axis in this case
14:51<@Alberth>yeah, it's not nice this way :)
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14:54<Wolf01>Yeah, Axis works
14:56<Wolf01>And now the command...
14:58<@Alberth>you have a widget for x axis and y axis and one must be lowered?
14:58<Wolf01>Yeah, resolved that
14:59<andythenorth>Wolf01: pushed a new icon
14:59<andythenorth>minor tweaks
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15:00<@Alberth>this->SetWidgetLowered(X_AXIS_WIDGET, direction == X_AXIS); or so
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15:01<@Alberth>this->SetWidgetLoweredState(X_AXIS_WIDGET, direction == X_AXIS);
15:01<Wolf01>Oh, I just changed the enum from DiagDir to Axis and it worked with no changes at all
15:01<@Alberth>ok :p
15:01<Wolf01>VpStartPlaceSizing(tile, VPM_X_AND_Y_LIMITED, DDSP_BUILD_BUSSTOP); then from where he gets that it's a drive-throught?
15:03<@Alberth>no idea :(
15:03<Wolf01>Oh, found
15:04<@Alberth>perhaps in the callbak check?
15:05<andythenorth>hmm tram icon bigger than road icon
15:05<andythenorth>not sure that’s working
15:05<Wolf01>Make the road icon larger
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15:08<@Alberth>OnPlaceDrag is probably called when moving, so you can update rendering
15:08<@Alberth>OnPlaceMouseUp is placement, by the looks of it
15:11<Wolf01>It always shows the error message CMD_MSG(_ltrail_type_info.err_build_station[ROADSTOP_BUS])
15:12<Wolf01>PlaceLtRailStop(start_tile, end_tile, (_ctrl_pressed << 5) | RoadTypeToRoadTypes(_cur_ltrailtype) << 2 | ROADSTOP_BUS, CMD_BUILD_ROAD_STOP | CMD_MSG(_ltrail_type_info.err_build_station[ROADSTOP_BUS]));
15:12<Wolf01>This should be the command
15:13<Wolf01>I was debugging inside the PlaceLtRailStop function and it looked everything ok
15:15<Wolf01>Forcing the drive-through
15:15<Wolf01>Ok, was tah
15:16<andythenorth>Wolf01: I can’t change the original TTD road icon :o :)
15:16<andythenorth>that would be shocking
15:16<Wolf01>Nobody will notice
15:22<Wolf01>Ok, committed the fixes, I think you must regenerate the project files
15:23<Wolf01>Mmmh, why was this file selected too?
15:24<Wolf01>I committed something to trunk which I shouldn't have
15:24<Wolf01>Maybe was one of the patching attempts
15:27<andythenorth>just revert the commit
15:27<andythenorth>or if it’s a file, just remove the file
15:27<andythenorth>git reverts are pretty good
15:28<andythenorth>although reverting a merge has…side effects :P
15:28<Wolf01>Not that it breaks anything, but I would like to not have it, it's the refactoring of the magic numbers
15:29<Wolf01>Do devs see what are we doing here?
15:30<andythenorth>they can see commit history
15:30<andythenorth>if the history is complicated, I would just reverse patch out the changes (get the diff, and reverse it)
15:31<andythenorth>if the history is simple, git revert the commit where it came in, adjust the commit, and push again
15:31<Wolf01>Yes reverted many changes on my repositories :P
15:32<Wolf01>Ok, this time I tried even with hotkeys, it *should* work
15:33<Wolf01>The icons of the stations are still wrong, but one thing at time
15:35<Wolf01>The only thing I found about drawing the station picker is where is not drawing the widgets
15:36<Wolf01>if (!IsInsideMM(widget, WID_BLRS_STATION_X, WID_BLRS_STATION_Y + 1)) return;
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15:36<Wolf01>Then there's station coverage and supply/accepts
15:37<Wolf01>And the icons?
15:37*andythenorth trying to pull request with github
15:40*andythenorth having hate for github
15:41<Wolf01>Nice composition
15:43<andythenorth>ha ha
15:44<andythenorth>I have some stuff like that from messing with catenary drawing
15:45<Wolf01>Eh, if only I could find the drawing code, I bet it's in some other source file
15:45<andythenorth>merged wolf repo gui to andy repo dev branch
15:45<andythenorth>road_cmd probably
15:45<andythenorth>I spend most of my ottd code time in some _cmd file
15:46<andythenorth>‘8’ no longer asserts :D
15:46<andythenorth>I need to redraw ‘build tunnel’ icon
15:46<andythenorth>also build road stop icons
15:46<andythenorth>also depot icon
15:47<Wolf01>Yes, now it's time to effectively split the RoadType, so I'll spend the rest of my life there too
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15:49<andythenorth>something not right with hotkey
15:49*andythenorth investigates
15:50<andythenorth>do we need ‘autoltrail’?
15:50<Wolf01>It's a new section, should start with [ltrail]
15:50<Wolf01>Just assign "A" to that too
15:50<andythenorth>I have a GLOBAL+CTRL+A
15:51<andythenorth>but it’s opening autoroad
15:51<Wolf01>For me it always opens the rail toolbar
15:52<Wolf01>Also, the hotkeys keys are all wrong
15:52<Wolf01>Ok, now they aren't, removing them from the cfg regenerated the names
15:54<Wolf01>Ouch, I forgot to change "goods_station" to "freight_station"
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15:55<andythenorth>build_ltrail works fine
15:55<andythenorth>does autoroad hotkey need splitting?
15:55<Wolf01>I think not
15:55<Wolf01>It's in its own section
15:57*andythenorth must make dinner :)
15:58<Wolf01>If you set global+a to all the 3, it seem to work right, but it always opens the road toolbar if no toolbar is open
15:59<Wolf01>But I think I'm done for this evening
15:59<andythenorth>me too :)
15:59<andythenorth>Wolf01: I am away from computer for a couple of weeks soon
16:00<V453000>btw /me is making rather detailed models of trains :>
16:00<V453000>BRIX livz
16:01<V453000>colours are all messed up, working on meshes atm
16:01<V453000>basically just the connecting part is good, anad the windows
16:01<V453000>lights are ass
16:01<andythenorth>colours schmolors
16:02<andythenorth>lights are badass
16:02<andythenorth>super bright
16:02<V453000>yeah but need something extra
16:02<V453000>that too
16:02<andythenorth>coupling is absolutely awesome
16:02<andythenorth>you don’t need buffers with knuckle coupler :P
16:02<andythenorth>it’s great
16:02<V453000>it took me every evening since we last talked. :D
16:03<V453000>the buffers are there basically for details at the bottom
16:03<V453000>had no clue about that though XD makes sense however.
16:03<andythenorth>full Janney coupler detail :P
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16:04<V453000>it probably wouldn't work as some of the proportions are blown out to be nice
16:04<V453000>but yeah
16:04<V453000>was fun to model
16:04<andythenorth>reminds me of
16:05<V453000>one of the pain is how far inside the wheels are
16:05<andythenorth>RL that train is about size of your thumb, if you have big thumb
16:05<V453000>to fit rails
16:05<andythenorth>wheels look fine
16:05<V453000>yeah I am working around them
16:05<V453000>I have some nice ideas for the top electric part
16:05<V453000>and a bit more details at the bottom
16:07<andythenorth>current pantograph is bad
16:07<andythenorth>I won’t be rude about it, but looks non-functioning :)
16:07<V453000>yeah it's actually one of the biggest issues of the whole model since the start tbh
16:08<Wolf01><andythenorth> Wolf01: I am away from computer for a couple of weeks soon <- good holidays then :P
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16:08<andythenorth>Wolf01: spent most of today tidying the house of fricking lego
16:08<V453000>what do you find disfunctional about it? my primary concerns are no mechanical parts like joints and some way of making it actually stick to the locomotive
16:08<andythenorth>yeah, looks like a single moulded part
16:09<Wolf01>A friend went to legoland (billund) for the second time in 3 months
16:09<andythenorth>is it that good? :o
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16:09<V453000>yep, then we see it the same way
16:09<V453000>which is good cause that is getting fixed af
16:11<V453000>totally saving that
16:12<V453000>also I am not ashamed of admitting in this channel that I find this romantic
16:12<V453000>didn't say that to my wife though
16:14<andythenorth>V453000: that’s touching :P
16:14<Wolf01>I always found interesting that the train coupling is maybe one of the oldest standards, and it is working with slight changes for 140 years
16:16<andythenorth>we will probably find same with TCP/IP
16:16<Wolf01>I hope so
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16:26<_dp_>Has anyone already suggested allowing towns to build houses on road turns(in corner)?
16:31<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: but for about 100 years, the european railways discussed about changing the hook&buffers train coupling into something more like the american/russian center coupling
16:32<Eddi|zuHause>and they never managed to switch over
16:32<Wolf01>Yes, there are many coupling systems, but the most used worldwide is the Janney
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>the russians had plans to switch eastern europe over separately, but they never pulled through on that
16:33<Eddi|zuHause>lots of eastern rolling stock was prepared for that switch
16:37<andythenorth>UK has maybe 4 or so coupling systems
16:37<andythenorth>foamers would know
16:38<Eddi|zuHause>lots of EMUs nowadays come with coupling systems that are basically incompatible with anything that is not the same EMU type
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>they have the added problem that they also have to transmit electric signals
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>and these are by no means standardized
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16:54<frosch123>hmm, is there any official name to hourglass/zzz cursors?
16:54<frosch123>like "busy" or something?
16:54<frosch123>"background activity" is too long :p
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>isn't "background activity" very wrong? you make a zzzz cursor for "foreground activity"
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>to indicate that you can't actually do anything right now, thing is busy.
16:56<frosch123>well, there is both :)
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember there being an "arrow with small hourglass" cursor for "background activity", meaning "you can do something, but it might be slower than usual"
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17:12<andythenorth>frosch123: MDN css docs
17:12<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: UK is gradually moving toward AAR couplers, a lot of coal/stone hoppers have only those now
17:12<andythenorth>MS and Apple will have their own names for wait cursor
17:13<andythenorth>on OS X it’s called ‘that fucking spinning beachball'
17:13<FLHerne>Of course, coaching stock mostly standardised on an incompatible, smaller and weaker version :P
17:13<FLHerne>And MUs are just all over the place
17:14<sim-al2>I think there's a move in mainland Europe towards a standard automatic freight coupler too
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>FLHerne: in germany, this one is the most popular:
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>it originated in trams, but is being used for EMUs/DMUs a lot
17:14<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know anything about freight
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>but every vehicle which uses these non-standard couplings is required to provide an adapter to the standard hooks
17:15<Eddi|zuHause>either carry it with the vehicle, or have it stored in a way that it can easily be brought on site
17:16<FLHerne>Eddi|zuHause: We have similar couplers on many modern EMUs, but the electrical connections are all different and some of the heights are incompatible
17:16<sim-al2>It's this one, like a Russian SA3 but with air connections:
17:18<sim-al2>Yeah, most of those multiple unit trains are incompatiable with each other, but at least one unit can tow another
17:18<FLHerne>Some of the class 57 locomotives have Dellner couplers like this, plus a million electronics adaptors
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17:19<FLHerne>Originally they were only compatible with Pendolinos (cl390), but recently they've been improved quite a bit
17:21<sim-al2>There's an old Japanese electric locomotive design that was used for banking up a very steep grade (6.67%), even the multiple units
17:22<sim-al2>It had a special coupler and a whole bunch of MU connectors so it could operate in unison with the MU:
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17:45<Flygon_>Japan doesn't need transition couplers
17:45<Flygon_>It IS the trasition coupler :U
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19:16<Samu>nocab managed to get 5000 aircraft, crazy
19:17<Samu>the only thing he can't get to 5000 is trains
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 15 00:00:49 2016