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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-08-22

---Logopened Mon Aug 22 00:00:08 2016
00:22<Ethereal_Whisper>Eddi|zuHause, I ended up just starting a new game instead lol
00:22<Ethereal_Whisper>Playing a different game with a friend at the moment though
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03:09<andythenorth_>oftc let me back on \o/
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04:27<Ethereal_Whisper>o/ Wolf01
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05:32<Ethereal_Whisper>o/ Wolf01
05:32<Ethereal_Whisper>I'm playing a "blitz" type game
05:33<Ethereal_Whisper>I put high density industries on a small map and am playing with a TL of 2
05:33<Ethereal_Whisper>150 trains in 1960, haha
05:33<Ethereal_Whisper> and bullshit like this
05:33<Ethereal_Whisper>Oooh I just noticed some unsignalled track haha
05:36<Ethereal_Whisper>I still like my "fork station" invention
05:37<Ethereal_Whisper>Though I'm probably not the first person to come up with it
05:39<V453000>can't tell until we see it :)
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05:40<Ethereal_Whisper>The main line "forks" around the station
05:40<Ethereal_Whisper>In effect it's a very short side line (waiting bay for 1 train, 2 platforms, I use it for primary industry pickup stations) that's kind of an
05:40<Wolf01>I usually I do it the other way, the station is split around the main line
05:40<Ethereal_Whisper>island between the ML tracks
05:41<Ethereal_Whisper>Oh now there's a thought
05:41<Ethereal_Whisper>Wait, how would returning empty trains be able to choose between both available platforms then?
05:42<Wolf01>Some diamond crosses before the entrances
05:43<Ethereal_Whisper>Can you show me what you mean?
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05:48<Ethereal_Whisper>Oh, but then the empty trains cross the main line coming the other way =/
05:52<V453000>Wolf01 you heretic
05:56<Ethereal_Whisper>BURN THE WITCH
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06:13<Ethereal_Whisper> max trains
06:13<Ethereal_Whisper>Not even my busiest corridor lol
06:20<Flygon>I was about to ask why your trains are going in reverse
06:21<Flygon>Then I remembered that not everyone drives on the left
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07:12<Sova>With what usual train length do you guys usually play with?
07:14<argoneus>good morning train friends
07:14<argoneus>Sova: I roll a die
07:14<Sova>between which values? :)
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>something between 3 and 15, mostly
07:15<Sova>holy crap 15
07:15<Sova>when you play 3
07:15<Sova>how do you handle industries which have high production values
07:16<Sova>like around 1k per month
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07:16<Eddi|zuHause>lots of trains
07:19<Sova>thing is it seems to me that in this case I'd have to create huge stations
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07:20<Sova>and usually there is not enough space
07:21<Sova>how many lanes does your typical station have for lets say a production of 1k per month?
07:21<Sova>1? :D
07:22<V453000>also, isn't building a big network a good thing to do in the game? :)
07:22<V453000>1k mine won't need more than 1 track
07:22<Sova>oh yes!
07:22<Sova>a station with only one track?
07:22<V453000>station should be fine with 2 platforms for a long time
07:22<Sova>ah yes sorry
07:22<Sova>i meant platforms
07:22<V453000>2nd one mainly for keeping a train load at all time
07:22<Sova>so 2 is enough?
07:22<V453000>4 platforms if you really want to make sure
07:22<V453000>likely it will be
07:23<V453000>you just need to have the stream of trains constant enough, or provide overflows etc
07:23<Sova>hmmm interesting, looks like I always overkill it then
07:23<V453000>well depends on trains obviously
07:23<V453000>if you have 1900s trains it probably doesn't get so simple
07:24<Sova>well yeah, I like to start at 1920 but things pickup nicely later on
07:24<Sova>I like that sense of progression :)
07:25<V453000>sure, but at 1920 the mine probably won't produce that much :)
07:25<Sova>well in some cases, specially in FIRS things can get pretty hectic early with supplies
07:25<Sova>if you send them over to mines
07:26<V453000>yeah, to some degree, sure
07:26<V453000>it's certainly faster growth than vanilla
07:26<Sova>vanilla is just nuts later on though
07:26<Sova>2k per month??
07:26<V453000>I personally find it very tetris like ... it's a scenario you can't win with reasonable network
07:27<V453000>which is to some degree interesting
07:27<V453000>but I like to load the Smaller Mines grf to reduce it
07:27<V453000>so that you build a huge network with shitload of mines
07:27<V453000>instead of just a few
07:27<Sova>didn't even know that this grf existed
07:27<Sova>I'll have to look into it
07:27<V453000>it's really simple but really nice
07:28<Sova>is this the one? -
07:28<V453000>one of the newer newgrfs ... Sylf wrote it :)
07:28<V453000>yes, it's on bananas
07:28<Sova>great, I'll definately look into it
07:29<Sova>I'm guessing this will work with default industries only?
07:29<Sova>no openx support?
07:30<V453000>I think so
07:30<V453000>I wouldn't expect it to work with opengfx+ industries
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08:03<Sova>Let's say I have 2 mainlines that need to merge. How do you guys prio this? Just add block signals and call it a day?
08:04<Wolf01><Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with? <- 5-10
08:05<Sova>Hey Wolf01
08:09<Sova>When do you use TL10?
08:09<Wolf01>Oh, totally random, but usually on long distance pax
08:09<Sova>got it
08:10<V453000>Sova: don't treat the priority like "this track is better than the other", but as a checking mechanism "is this track full, should I let trains join this track?"
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08:13<Sova>That makes sense
08:14<V453000>so if you have a Side Line -> main line junction, it's simple. You pick from the main lines, give the side line all posisble choices. and prioritize ML. Simple.
08:14<V453000>with ML x ML, you just give priority to lines which don't have choices
08:14<V453000>OR you give all lines choices and you don't need any priorities
08:14<V453000>because the choice is made by some places clogging up and forcing trains elsewhere
08:15<V453000>since they ahve the options
08:15<V453000>have you seen this page?
08:15<Sova>indeed I have
08:16<V453000>the most important thing to understand is this basically
08:17<V453000>in fact you can array those mergers infinitely to get the amount of lines you want XD but it's generally not convenient
08:19<Sova>If I'm correct, in the above picture we have only 2 lines that have a choice?
08:19<Sova>and thusly they also have prio
08:19<V453000>2 have a choice and they merge onto the other ones
08:19<Sova>oh now other wawy around
08:20<Sova>the ones that don't have choice
08:20<Sova>have pro
08:20<V453000>because they can't divert traffic anywhere
08:20<V453000>they don't detect which line is full or empty
08:20<Sova>is it better to always provide choice for everything?
08:20<V453000>trains from inside check which line is full(er), and go to the emptier one
08:21<V453000>eh, it's an option and it's easier to keep track of it later in the game, but it's not necessary
08:22<V453000>but it is a big space saver if you declare some lines to be non-choice
08:22<V453000>for example if you have 4+4->6
08:22<V453000>you make 6 tracks no choice
08:23<V453000>and only make 2 choose from all the 6
08:23<V453000>so the resulting merger is actually pretty small
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08:32<V453000>the thing is that you don't just build things and leave them alone, you usually expand a lot
08:33<Wolf01> nice and useful train
08:33<V453000>which is why making all to all-ish is handy
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08:33<Flygon><Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with?
08:33<Flygon><Sova> With what usual train length do you guys usually play with?
08:34<Flygon>I CTRL+V failed :U
08:34<V453000>congratulations you managed to click 96 times in depot
08:34<Sova>50 :)
08:34<V453000>tracks don't even know how to signal, gg
08:34<Sova>signals each 50 tiles :)
08:39<Wolf01>I don't place many signals too
08:39<Sova>no but really how does this work?
08:39<Flygon>V453000: The map had only one refinery
08:39<Flygon>So it actually became efficient to make smaller 7-20 tile long trains feed the 48 tile long monsters
08:39<Flygon>It would've been 64 tiles, but I physically ran out of space
08:39<Flygon>Either way
08:39<Flygon>It does justify the Big Boy in the 2CC set
08:39<Flygon>In low-speed operations, no-less
08:39<Sova>I don't really play 2cc as there are too many trains in that set for my taste and I use maybe 10% of them if even that many
08:40<Flygon>xP It depends on the era
08:40<Flygon>Pre-1900,I find I use almost all of them
08:40<Flygon>1920-1990... a lot simply aren't useful
08:40<Flygon>Usually because the company is so big, it's not worth faffing over the cost/benefit ratios of individual locos
08:41<Flygon>And it's easier to just standardize on specific models
08:41<V453000>there is always one locomotive which is ultimately best
08:41<Flygon>Like, the Big Boy in the screenshot was an unusual case where I couldn't use a standard loco
08:41<Flygon>Not the norm
08:42<Flygon>A standard loco would've needed around 5-7 of them, cost more, run slower, and be a pita to autoreplace
08:42<Sova>Couldn't you have used smaller trains? Only much more of them? :)
08:42<Flygon>iirc, I eventually obsoleted the Big Boys in the 1970s with electric locos (once they caught up). Nothing else in the set had the TE required.
08:42<Flygon>1. That's not as cool
08:42<Flygon>2. It's too fussy to run
08:43<Flygon>3. Big Boys were cheaper
08:43<Flygon>Because there was just one loco for such a massive load
08:43<Flygon>And it made designing terminals easier
08:44<V453000>cheaper is usually irrelevant considering the amount of money you have, and the ultra simple method how you make money in this game
08:44<V453000>not as cool is great, but you need at least some reasonable reasons
08:44<V453000>but yeah, bla bla, nuts, blabla, choices, blabla, gameplay
08:45<Flygon>xP It WAS a reasonably reason!
08:45<Flygon>It made the game eaiser to play :)
08:45<Sova>reasonable reason :)
08:46<Flygon>Tried to find more screenshots in my Dropbox
08:46<Flygon> But all I found was a raccoon shopping instead
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08:47<Sova>not sure what to think of that :)
08:48<Flygon>Me neither
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09:12<Samu>those horizontal and vertical routes for aircraft
09:13<Samu>do aircraft get better profits if the routes are horizontal/vertical aligned, instead of diagonal?
09:13<Samu>seems fishy, i got to test this
09:15<Alkel_U3>Wolf01: handy train, reminded me of a movie :-)
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09:25<Samu>holy crap
09:25<Samu>i hope this is fixable
09:27<Samu>going from coordinates 993x20 to 993x220 (200 tiles distance) takes more time than going from coordinates 801x174 to 901x274 (200 tiles distance), using aircraft
09:27<Samu>travel time 61 days vs 50 day
09:29<Samu>on the way back, travel time was 65 days vs 49 days
09:29<Samu>it's confirmed then, horizontal/vertical aligned aircraft routes profit more
09:29<Samu>because they travel faster
09:32<Samu>should I report this finding as a bug, or is it known/intended?
09:43<_dp_>how is 60 days faster than 50?
09:45<Samu>the yearly income shows
09:45<Samu>£29,269 for the 60 days aircraft vs £35,753 for the 50 days aircraft
09:46<_dp_>so what is better? diagonals? that's expected
09:46<Samu>no, vertical/horizontal
09:47<_dp_>you said vertical is 60 days (993x20 to 993x220)
09:47<Samu>that's nocab ai, he removes the less profitable routes from time to time, and i noticed the majority of routes he kept are vertical/horizontal
09:48<_dp_>ah, you call it backwards, vertical on map is diagonal on tiles
09:49<_dp_>yeah, that's pretty well-known, diagonal trains are better too
09:49<Samu>really? seems unfair
09:50<_dp_>there is no fair solution because rv can't go diagonal
09:50<Wolf01>That's because of TT timey-wimey-wibbly-wobbly calculation of 2.5D proportions
09:50<_dp_>so cargo is paid for manhattan distance instead of some else
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09:53<Samu>slow down vehicles when they're going vertically/horizontally?
09:53<Samu>to compensate?
09:53<Samu>even if it impacts road vehicles, it should be minimal
09:57<Samu>i see
09:57<_dp_>and diagonal track are harder to build so it kinda balances it
09:57<Samu>not for aircraft, they don't seem to care
09:58<Samu>maybe the profit formula could be adjusted
09:58<_dp_>aircrafts are broken anyway :p
09:59<Samu>have the income formula take into account some sort of penalty for traveling vertically? hmm
10:00<_dp_>Samu, you need to remember how each cargo was transported then
10:00<Samu>i see
10:00<Samu>not easy to deal with
10:01<_dp_>hm, may not be that hard though as it only needs to remember amount of diagonal and total tiles...
10:04<_dp_>if based on diagonal/total ratio may be reasonably fair, at least I don'see any problem yet
10:07<Samu>a penalty for each type of vehicle on the income formula?
10:07<Samu>adjusted differently?
10:07<Samu>i dunno just giving out ideas
10:08<_dp_>Samu, and what to do with transfers7
10:10<_dp_>if rvs are paid more you just do transfer carousel after diagonal train unload
10:12<Samu>i was thinking, if the train transfers it into a lorry station, have that penalty already applied
10:13<Samu>a->b->c, a->b is train, apply train penalty when the cargo arrives at b
10:13<Samu>b->c take the already penalized cargo then apply anothr penalty for road vehicle
10:13<Samu>once it reaches c
10:15<_dp_>Samu, payments are only calculated when cargo is accepted by consumer, transfer payments are purely virtual
10:15<Samu>oh, then i don't know :(
10:18<supermop_>i don't think it is unfair - every player faces the same situation
10:20<supermop_>same as how if you want to build a route at a roughly 2:1 angle - you are better to build it in large staggered steps rather than steps shorter than train length - even though the latter 'looks' like its a smoother, more direct route
10:21<supermop_>also a turn can be 'sharp' for a long train, but the same turn will have no speed penalty if the train is a bit shorter
10:21<Samu>slowing down vehicles on vertical/horizontal tiles was my first idea, but you say it is affecting wagons
10:22<supermop_>it is just the strange physics of the universe where TT exists
10:25<Samu>hmm let me think
10:26<Samu>let's say the penalty is 25%, a train going at 100 km/h won't really have all of his wagons on the vertical/horizontal tracks
10:27<Samu>if the size of each carriage/engine is 0.5 and the train is sized 6.0
10:27<Samu>penalty is based on the number of wagons that are currently on a vertical/horizontal track
10:28<Samu>not always 25% then, but... varied, up to a max of 25% when all wagons are in fact in vertical/horizontal
10:28<Samu>how to get the final result, i just dont know :(
10:29<Wolf01> :o
10:30<Samu>6/0,5 = 12, right?
10:30<Samu>25/12 = 2,0833
10:31<Samu>each wagon/engine sized 0,5 that enters a vertical/horizontal track slows down the whole train by 2,0833%
10:32<Samu>100 km/h > 98 km/h > 96 km/h > etc... > 75 km/h
10:33<Samu>if one of the engines/wagon that was going vertically/horizontally suddenly goes diagonal, then up the speed by that same %
10:33<Samu>instantly, no acceleration
10:34<Samu>so in essence, the goal is to achieve parity with pure diagonal travelling days
10:34<Samu>turn 50 days into 60 days travel time
10:34<Samu>dunno how much of a penalty that is
10:40<Samu>the speed is applied to the entire train, not individually
10:40<Samu>would that avoid the overlapping issue?
10:40<Wolf01>But I expect a train travelling always at the same speed on a straight track
10:42<Samu>it would still display 100 km/h, but wouldn't really be going at 100 km/h
10:43<Samu>how noticeable would that be for the player obvserving? i don't really know
10:45<Samu>probably noticeable on very short trains, but not so much on long trains
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10:58<@Alberth>hi hi
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11:04<Wolf01> ha! They didn't change the entire wheels but only the external ring
11:06<Samu>i'm trying that patch there, see what exactly happens
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11:27<@Alberth>you can just see it in the game
11:28<@Alberth>compare length of the diagonal wagon vs the non-diagonal length
11:28<@Alberth>NUTS shows it very clearly
11:29<@Alberth>#6121 is related :)
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11:42<andythenorth_>Composited vehicles :o
11:42<supermop_>boat man
11:42<andythenorth_>All my pixa work is for nothing :p
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11:51<andythenorth_>Unstable connection is unstable
11:53<Samu>has there been a patch about speed penalty?
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11:54<Samu>penalize current vehicle speed when they're on + tracks?
11:55<Samu>why do you say diagonal?
11:55<andythenorth_>'Buy menu contains too many vehicles' <- overstated problem?
11:56<@Alberth>for fish/squid? definitely
11:56*andythenorth_ seeking schema / theme for ships
11:56<@Alberth>well, compared to default ships, it is large :p
11:57<andythenorth_>for RVs, finding right 'shape' for set took many iterations
11:57<Samu>and i dunno what the penalty should be, how to calculate it
11:57<@Alberth>or rather, default ships is ridiculously small :p
11:58<andythenorth_>'Limited vehicles' works for trains where player can arrange consist as needed
11:58<andythenorth_>Works for airplanes fine, due to limited application
11:58<andythenorth_>RVs, not so much
11:59<andythenorth_>Ships, I'm not sure small buy menu works at all
11:59<Samu>"the speed of a train on a diagonal is about 0.707v horizontal and vertical where v is its nominal speed when travelling orthogonally." is this official?
12:00<@Alberth>it is in the real world, due to geometry
12:00<Samu>dont care about real world
12:00<Samu>what about openttd?
12:00<@Alberth>based on distance of two opposite corner
12:01<andythenorth_>Is that 0.5 * root 2?
12:01<@Alberth>about 1.4 / 2
12:02<@Alberth>too long buy menu for your road hog with all cargoes?
12:02<andythenorth_>Not imho
12:03<andythenorth_>Assuming you only look at depot buy menu, not 'available vehicles'
12:03<andythenorth_>Due to tram/street split
12:04*andythenorth_ inclined to supply a lot of smaller ship sizes, and only a few large sizes
12:05<Samu>i'm gonna base myself on travel time and try to calculate the penalty
12:06<andythenorth_>30 pax vs 90 pax might be a useful option, but 450 or 600 are both about same
12:06<andythenorth_>precision matters less with routes that need larger vehicles?
12:07*andythenorth_ wonders about watertypes :p
12:10<@Alberth>we have that, right? :)
12:11<andythenorth_>in a slightly useless way yes :)
12:11<@Alberth>I agree with "more and less precise"
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12:11<@Alberth>basically you add sufficient to fill required transport capacity
12:12<andythenorth_>Canal vs sea is amongst the least useful newgrf ideas :)
12:12<@Alberth>where the main benefit of a large ship is reduced running cost, probably
12:12<andythenorth_>I think the main benefit of larger ships is eye candy
12:13<andythenorth_>Same as long trains, they're nice to watch
12:13<@Alberth>also a good point :)
12:13<@Alberth>I am just too busy with cargo flow :p
12:14<@Alberth>what other water types are you considering?
12:15<andythenorth_>I have never discovered any tbh
12:15<andythenorth_>Sea vs canal isn't types really
12:15<@Alberth>ha, a single water type "water" thus :p
12:15<andythenorth_>Just makes slow vehicles slower
12:16<@Alberth>it could force a transfer point
12:16<andythenorth_>sea ships can't be prevented from canals or vice versa, so it's not interesting currently
12:16<@Alberth>but maybe tmwftlb
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12:16<@Alberth>1km/h for a sea ship at a canal is quiteeffective :p
12:17<andythenorth_>Different docks would force it
12:17<Wolf01>Going out for dinner. Bye
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12:17<andythenorth_>Crippling the speed is just irritating :)
12:17<@Alberth>yeah, indeed
12:17<andythenorth_>Ban sea ships from locks?
12:17<andythenorth_>Probably an easy patch
12:18<@Alberth>and then?
12:18<andythenorth_>Watertypes discussion has never so far produced worthwhile idea :D
12:18<andythenorth_>yeah, I have nothing
12:19<@Alberth>main achievement would be another flag expressing realism :p
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12:20<@Alberth>yeah, not going anywhere today with water types :)
12:20<andythenorth_>Size at dock?
12:21<andythenorth_>Docks get n units of ship capacity?
12:21<andythenorth_>Each ship takes x units?
12:21<@Alberth>so limit capacity of a dock?
12:22<@Alberth>or is n and x constant?
12:22<@Alberth>which basically bans some ships
12:22<Samu>loading capacity of a dock
12:22<andythenorth_>X constant per ship type
12:23<Samu>load x units of cargo per interval
12:23<@Alberth>no station does that currenrtly
12:23<Samu>suppose there's 10 ships loading and suddenly 500 cargo appears at the dock
12:24<@Alberth>it makes more sense to make ships take room at a dock
12:24<andythenorth_>Equivalent to drive-through RV stops handling of vehicle lenght
12:24<Samu>instead of having all ships pick the cargo, have only 1 ship pick x per interval
12:24<andythenorth_>Size = better ide
12:25<Samu>10 ships, each with 50 capacity
12:25<andythenorth_>Alberth so a dock might load 3 small ships or one large one
12:26<@Alberth>something like that
12:26<Samu>:( guess i'm talking about a different idea
12:26<@Alberth>but pretty soon you'll want multi-docks then
12:27<@Alberth>Samu: limiting load capacity is not in the game currently, it's a bit weird to add it to ship docks, and not to trains/RVs/Aircraft
12:27<@Alberth>the latter have limits due to size of the vehicle, or limited number of places for loading
12:28<@Alberth>so it makes more sense to add the latter kind of limit also to ship docks
12:28<andythenorth_>Multi-docks is entailed in this idea :D
12:28<andythenorth_>I snuck it in :p
12:29<@Alberth>I think it's the inevitable next question
12:29<@Alberth>if you limit capacity, you want more platforms
12:30<Samu>1 ship per platform?
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12:30<andythenorth_>Build docks in tiles like RV stops
12:30<Samu>1 dock, 3 platforms?
12:30<@Alberth>currently you cannot have several docks with the same station afaik
12:31<andythenorth_>One ship per water side
12:31<andythenorth_>Large ships might need three or four tiles in a contiguous line
12:31<Samu>loading capacity for stations seems like an interesting idea though
12:32<andythenorth_>Probably tmwtflb
12:32<andythenorth_>But eh
12:33<Samu>i'm currently doing a test with road vehicles, and there's something odd with travel times
12:33<Samu>north to south, on the same road in a zig-zag shape, took 126 days
12:33<Samu>south to north, took 130 days
12:33<Samu>drive on right
12:34<Samu>is this a bug, am i missing something?
12:34<andythenorth_>From north?
12:35<Samu>road vehicle 2
12:35<Samu>going north takes more time than going south
12:35<Samu>why's that
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12:40<Samu>headwind what is that?
12:42<supermop_>andythenorth_: choppy water vs smooth harbour?
12:42<Samu>just tried with original acceleration model
12:42<andythenorth_>? o_O
12:42<Samu>130 days going south, 133 days going north
12:43<Samu>the problem is in the track itself?
12:43<supermop_>shallow submerged rocks and sandbars that only dingies can traverse
12:44<@Alberth>Samu: swap direction of the vehicles
12:44<@Alberth>if the track is the problem, you'll get the same result
12:44<@Alberth>if direction is the problem, you'll get different results
12:45<Samu>ok, gonna try
12:45<@Alberth>if both are a problem, I don't know :)
12:45<supermop_>same, lunch
12:45<@Alberth>bye for now
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12:49<Samu>i get a different, yet similar result
12:49<Samu>north to south 130 days
12:49<Samu>south to north 126 days
12:50<Samu>going north now takes less time, the situation reversed
12:51<V453000>frosch123: how does the sorting of layers for layered vehicles work? Can I for example have layers ABCD show as ABCD in one train view, and when reversed have the layering as ABDC ?
12:51<frosch123>the grf defines the order
12:52<frosch123>chaning the order is essentialy swapping lines in a switch
12:53<frosch123> <- that's my testgrf
12:56<V453000>but can I change that for the same vehicle, just different rotations?
12:56<frosch123>there is a direction variable
12:56<V453000>nice :D
12:56<frosch123>first switch on "direction", then switch on "layer"
12:57<V453000>just one essential thing I thought of :)
12:58<frosch123>maybe semi-trailer rv can make use of that
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13:15<Samu>i'm getting an approximate 66% slower or 50% faster
13:15<Samu>for the penalty
13:15<Samu>using trains
13:16<Samu>if the distance is the same
13:16<Samu>the train going diagonal is 66% slower than the train going vertical
13:17<Samu>erm 33%
13:17<Samu>it travels at 66% of the speed of the other that is
13:17<Samu>bah i suck at math
13:17<Samu>296/443 or 443/296
13:18<Samu>296/443 = 0,6681715575620767
13:18<Samu>443/296 = 1,496621621621622
13:18<V453000>frosch123: if you place 2 or more containers on a flatbed, you need container A be on top in 1 view, container B in the other
13:19<V453000>I think it's super common to be necessary
13:20<Samu>help me at math. if I want the train that took 296 days to travel to take 443 days instead, I multiply it by 0,66 or by 1.50?
13:21<frosch123>is that a valid use case though?
13:21<frosch123>you cannot change the position of the sprites
13:21<Samu>let me try a max speed, it's nice that openttd has the option to limit speeds
13:22<frosch123>so you need different sprites for the two containers
13:22<frosch123>so, i would think loading stages are still complete sprites
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13:22<frosch123>and not an add-on to the previous loading stage
13:22<frosch123>btw. i limit it currently to maximum 4 sprites per articulated part
13:22<frosch123>just to prevent newgrfs from getting greedy :)
13:24<Samu>awesome, i got it right!
13:25<Samu>the penalty is bigger than i thought
13:26<Samu>a train moving at 64 km/h needs to divide it by 1.50
13:27<Samu>43 km/h got it right where I wanted
13:27<Samu>took 443 days at 43 km/h
13:30<Samu>a train moving at 100 km/h would be moving at 66.67 km/h
13:30<Samu>looks quite a sharp penalty
13:31<Samu>but it achieves time travel parity
13:31<@planetmaker>4 sprites are enough for everyone ;)
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13:33*Rebecca looks around
13:33<@Alberth>nobody here :)
13:35*Rebecca says hello
13:37<NGC3982>I'm having the worst issues with going back and forth between ottd and citites skylines
13:37<frosch123>easy, just stay with ottd
13:37<NGC3982>I'm always confused by the fact that wasd doesn't do anything. :-p
13:38*Rebecca wonders
13:38<Alkel_U3>worse - it does different stuff. And yeah, I deal with that, too, occasionaly :-)
13:39<@Alberth>Rebecca: it's ok to just talk :)
13:39<Rebecca>Has anyone gotten OpenTTD to work with Native Client?
13:40<NGC3982>This channel must be pro-skylines, i guess.
13:40*Rebecca has a question tho ^ .....
13:40<@Alberth>euhm, what's a Native Client ?
13:40<Rebecca>It's a way to run apps like OpenTTD on Chrome-based devices.
13:41<@Alberth>ah, right
13:41<Alkel_U3>NGC3982: kinda, but mostly Factorio :D
13:41<@Alberth>no idea, you're the first that I see mentioning it :)
13:41*Rebecca nods
13:41<Rebecca>I found a few old logs of Hexxeh getting somewhere.
13:41<Alkel_U3>oh, than I mistook it for some other channel elswhere
13:42<@Alberth>which is not promising in finding people that have it running :)
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13:42<@Alberth>you could post at tt-forums, to find other people, perhaps
13:42*andythenorth_ needs to pin down some ship capacities
13:42<@Alberth>bigger audience than here
13:42*Rebecca nods
13:43<Rebecca>^ From there to the end of the page.
13:43<@Alberth>@seen Hexxeh
13:43<@DorpsGek>Alberth: Hexxeh was last seen in #openttd 4 years, 16 weeks, 5 days, 0 hours, 43 minutes, and 5 seconds ago: <Hexxeh> ah, thought the title screen stuff was music rather than sfx, that's okay
13:43<@Alberth>he didn't say much lately :)
13:44<NGC3982>Alkel_U3: Factorio is nice. I have yet to complete the tutorial, tho.
13:44<NGC3982>Is it "though" in english, and "tho" in american?
13:44<frosch123>Rebecca: there is a javascript port of sdl and openttd via emscripten
13:46<Rebecca>NGC3982, "though" == "tho"
13:47<Rebecca>The one is a shortened version of the other.
13:47<Alkel_U3>NGC3982: when you're finished with that (estimating 80 - 200 h), move onto Dwarf Fortress :P
13:47<NGC3982>Alkel_U3: Oh my.
13:47<andythenorth_>For pax ships, seems that 30-40 pax is always a good entry point
13:47<Rebecca>frosch123, SDL is ported to Native Client.
13:47<Alkel_U3>hm, probably more if I take mods into account
13:48<Rebecca>I had a few changes that I had to make for it to compile, though.
13:48<Rebecca>*There were a few changes
13:49<Samu>what is the equivalent track type for aircraft? is it like rails?
13:49<Samu>where in the tile do they travel?
13:50<andythenorth_>30, 90, 180, 360, 720?
13:53<@Alberth>aircraft don't have tracks, they fly in one of 8 directions towards the next point
13:54<@Alberth>andythenorth_: alll multiples of 30 by design?
13:55<@Alberth>I'd just do 30 or so, like 30, 120, 720
13:56<frosch123>s/30/3/ ?
13:56<@Alberth>unless you want a lot of different ships
13:56<Samu>alberth, about the road vehicle travel time issue, i tried a max speed of 40 km/h for all different buses
13:56<@Alberth>frosch123: haha, yes indeed :)
13:56<Samu>oops all different routes, not buses
13:57<Samu>one route is a pure straight line
13:57<Samu>the other is zig-zag, and the other is, instead of a zig-zag, it's 2 straight lines with only a curve
13:58<Samu>they all got 141 days for travel time, except zig-zag direction south-north with drive on right
13:58<Samu>got 135
13:58<Samu>I suppose the problem is there
13:58<Samu>north-south got 141 days
13:59<@Alberth>sounds weird indeed
14:00<@Alberth>maybe an off-by-one error?
14:00<@Alberth>although 6 days is a lot
14:00<Samu>gah typo, north-south got 135 days, south-north got 141 days, my bad
14:01<@Alberth>how many corners does it have
14:01<Samu>hmm the entirety of it
14:01<@Alberth>tile positions?
14:02<Samu>sec, i'll give u savegame
14:02<@Alberth>@calc 6*72
14:02<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 432
14:03<@Alberth>map of 1000x1000?
14:03<Samu>ah no, distance is 200 tiles i think
14:03<@Alberth>or 512x512?
14:03<@Alberth>use the '?' tool to query position of both end points
14:04<andythenorth_>Alberth FISH has too many sizes, Squid maybe not enough
14:04<V453000>frosch123: I wanted to do something wtf with 5 layers but I will humbly accept 4 :P
14:04<V453000>will work
14:04<Samu>!Ah9vX-Q9n7IjiiqXQDrHDYD8vIzu savegame
14:04<@Alberth>andythenorth_: doubling the previous size can be easily done with buying a second ship
14:05<Samu>901x274x1 station at south
14:05<frosch123>V453000: it's an arbitrary limit
14:05<@Alberth>ugh 1drive :(
14:05<Samu>800x175x1 station at north
14:05<Samu>i tried both at 801x174x1 and then 800x175x1, no difference
14:06<@Alberth>ah, so about 100 in each direction
14:06<frosch123>ottd currently resolves all the sprites of the vehicles all the times, so i just want to prevent grfs going nuts with cpu power :p
14:06<Samu>does the link work?
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14:07<@Alberth>Samu: I don't even try, that site uses a zillion other sites with all kinds of scripts
14:07<Samu>oh ok,i post on the forum
14:07<@Alberth>but you gave the positions
14:08<@Alberth>I just wanted a sort of indication of the road length
14:08<V453000>frosch123: I think 4 is fine, I wanted something really stupid
14:09<V453000>8 would be really awesome but 4 works for vast majority of cases probably
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14:10<@Alberth>there should be a difference between position 800 and 801, but you can't measure it by watching, probably
14:11<@Alberth>if 100 tiles is 6 days, 1 tile is 6/100 of a day
14:11<@Alberth>which is around 5 ticks
14:11<@Alberth>not something you can see very well
14:12<supermop_>yo andythenorth_
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14:12<Samu>i got another idea
14:13<Samu>i put 2 buses starting at the same time, one goes north, the other goes south, will see who arrives at the opposite station first
14:13<Samu>both limited to 40 km/h
14:16<supermop_>well he's gone
14:16<Samu>north-south bus arrived first
14:17<supermop_>but one way to make bigger ships more interesting would be multiple holds
14:17<@Alberth>yep, but that's an openttd engine limitation
14:17<Samu>south-north bus is about 6 tiles away from reaching north station, it's really noticeable
14:18<supermop_>currently if i can have 2x 300t ship or 1x600t, the 2x 300t has the flexibility of holding two cargoes, the 600t has no advantage
14:18<@Alberth>same cargo problem exists with aircraft, to a lesser extend
14:18<@Alberth>and Rvs to an even lessier extent :p
14:18<Samu>that's the difference
14:18<supermop_>aircraft can sort of hack it with cargo in shadow
14:19<supermop_>aircraft, the big plane has an advantage in landing pattern time
14:19<@Alberth>Samu: yep, you'd expect the same result, which thus indeed happens
14:20<@Alberth>supermop_: they do?
14:20<supermop_>one 300 seat plane has a set time to approach, land, and taxi,
14:20<supermop_>3x 100 seat planes have to do that same time per each
14:21<supermop_>so there is a tradeoff in efficiency vs granularity
14:21<supermop_>with ships
14:21<@Alberth>oh, better throughput, yes
14:21<@Alberth>not with ships, as they move completely independently
14:21<supermop_>3 100t ships can overlap the same tile if you want them to
14:21<Samu>is it fixable?
14:22<Samu>problem appears to be with only 1 of the directions, as per the other comparison
14:22<supermop_>so more small ships gives you the increased granularity but no loss in efficiency (other than cpu cost of pathfinder)
14:22<Samu>north - south is too fast, with drive on right
14:22<@Alberth>Samu: to answer that you need to know the cause dirst
14:23<Samu>in the savegame i gave u, you can see the other buses got the same time of 141 in every direction, only exception was that one north-south with 135 days
14:23<Samu>i guess that's where the problem is
14:23<supermop_>if you have a good enough cpu, ideally you would have 1000s of little jet skis carrying 1t each
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14:24<supermop_>ships are super easy to timetable too, so with small ships just keep adding more as demand increases
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14:27<supermop_>also, if you want to always have one ship loading, easy way is to have one extra ship timetabled, waiting for the next to arrive. if i have a 120 day round trip, I could have one 300t ship every 30 days, and buy 5, with an extra 30 days wait and the loading dock
14:28<supermop_>with 100t ships, i can have one every 10 days, so buy 13 with an extra 10 days wait
14:29<supermop_>in the latter case I have all of the same advantages, but only 100t of slack capacity instead of 300t
14:30<supermop_>and balancing with purchase or running cost alone is probably too boring or negligible to be worth it
14:31<supermop_>as andy said, the only reason to use the big boat is that it looks cool
14:32<Samu>haven't tested ships, but i expect the penalty is also current speed/1.5
14:33<supermop_>which is a perfectly fair reason to be honest. I am fine with ships as is, but if andy wants ideas to make them more interesting, maybe that is where to explore
14:33<Samu>brb creating a ship sceratio
14:36<@Alberth>andy is always improving things :)
14:37<supermop_>Alberth: sometimes i think it might be best not to stir up extra ideas with him
14:38<@Alberth>not sure that helps, he seems to have sufficient ideas of his own :)
14:45<Samu>169/113 =
14:46<Samu>well, same penalty for ships, 1,5
14:46<Samu>aircraft is not easy to test :(
14:47<Samu>how would I test them :(
14:47<Samu>need ideas
14:48<Samu>already tested road vehicles, trains and ships
14:48<Samu>road vehicles need no penalty
14:48<Samu>trains and ships will share the same penalty
14:49<Samu>aircraft... i dunno, but it needs a penalty, which one I don't know how to calculate it
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14:51<Samu>what is the airport type that has the least amount of running around
14:51<Samu>gonna check heliport
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14:56<Samu>yeah seems heliport is good
14:56<Samu>let's see results
15:00<Samu>hmm.. different penalty for aircraft?
15:01<Samu>i may need a longer route
15:01<Samu>gonna retry
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15:07-!-Webster is "Supybot" on #openttd @+#openttdcoop.nightly #openttdcoop.bots @+#coopetition #openttdcoop.devzone @+#openttdcoop @+#openttdcoop.stable
15:07<Samu>122-125 days range vs 180-181 days range
15:08<Samu>this is strange
15:08<frosch123>hoi webster
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15:09<Samu>seems like aircraft travel faster when going south? 3 days difference
15:09<Samu>but it's not practical to test aircraft, can't seem to get a good value
15:09<Samu>seems the penalty is around 1,44-1,48 range
15:10<frosch123>SpComb: we have a new bot, can you send me the logs somehow?
15:13<@Rubidium>Samu: how did you calculate that?
15:14<@Rubidium>because if you count from departure to arrival, you have to account for the place in the holding pattern the plane gets
15:14<@Rubidium>and in some cases it basically means straight to landing and in other cases it means having to make almost a whole loop
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15:16<frosch123>@calc 5
15:16<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 5
15:16<Webster>frosch123: 5
15:16*andythenorth_ ponders sprite compositing
15:17<andythenorth_>Frosch123 is there a mask layer? o_O
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15:17<frosch123>what is that?
15:18<frosch123> <- did you see that?
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15:23<KenjiE20>@calc 5
15:23<@DorpsGek>KenjiE20: 5
15:23<Webster>KenjiE20: 5
15:24<andythenorth_>Frosch123 saw the picture ;)
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15:25<KenjiE20>frosch123: try an @calc, might be just cause I am admin
15:25<frosch123>@calc 123
15:25<@DorpsGek>frosch123: 123
15:25<KenjiE20>yep, cool
15:26<andythenorth_>Mask layer would AND the pixels below, usually it's a 1 bit image
15:26<frosch123>andythenorth_: i guess just draw another layer over it
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15:26<frosch123>vehicle underlay, cargo, vehicle overlay
15:27<frosch123>just like tunnel in ottd
15:27<andythenorth_>Actually there's no need for mask, I am daft :p
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15:27<andythenorth_>We already have blue to knock pixels out from bg
15:29<frosch123>in 32bpp you can use the alpha channel to make a color gradient between 1cc and 2cc
15:29<andythenorth_>Although I use masks for more than that in Hog
15:29<frosch123>(will likely look stupid though :p)
15:30<andythenorth_>I draw one layer for vehicle, then use mask to selectively copy some of it for overlay
15:32<andythenorth_>Layered vehicles is a nice feature, but I might stick to pre-compositing :)
15:32<Ethereal_Whisper>I just ordered a new contact lens. RIP my bank account balance.
15:33<supermop_>one lens?
15:33<frosch123>get a pair at least
15:33<supermop_>how expensive is this lens
15:33<supermop_>frosch123: i guess they need to save up for the other lens
15:35<frosch123>andythenorth_: think about cargo recoloring
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15:37<andythenorth_>Frosch123 I know :)
15:38<andythenorth_>it's a neat feature
15:41<supermop_>V453000: why don't v ray materials have an inherent scale?
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15:41<V453000>material scale?
15:42<supermop_>yeah why not
15:42<V453000>idk it's usually defined by the UV mapping which tends to be different for each object
15:43<supermop_>if i have a bricks material, why aren't the bricks always 200mm long
15:43<supermop_>yeah that's bullshit
15:43<V453000>well they can be in max at least I think
15:43<V453000>in max you can have real world scale of maps iirc
15:43<V453000>never tried though
15:43<supermop_>i have to adjust mapping individually for each wall
15:43<V453000>well in max you can select all walls and set 1 mapping
15:43<supermop_>unless there is something im missing
15:44<V453000>depends on your software
15:44<V453000>for example default UVs for blender don't exist
15:44<V453000>in max default UVs are 1 polygon = 1 UV space
15:44<Samu>gonna try different distances now
15:44<supermop_>my plaster has pixels about 1cm square on big walls, and looks like plaster on small walls
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15:47<Samu>ok 3 days difference
15:47<V453000>supermop_: where are you using vray? rhino?
15:48<V453000>cause this shit is probably heavily dependent on your application
15:48<V453000>so don't take my hints for sure
15:48<supermop_>i asked IT guys for maxwell or flamingo bc ive never used vray
15:48<Samu>122-125 days for a 500 tiles distance, 237-240 days for a 1000 tiles distance
15:48<supermop_>but they put vray on instead?
15:48<Samu>nothing strange here
15:49<supermop_>so i tried to have my intern set up the materials but i'm not really happy with them
15:49<Samu>Rubidium: how do i calculate the days on the holding pattern you mentioned
15:49<Samu>i'd like to exclude these days
15:50<supermop_>so now i'm being forced, kicking and screaming, to learn this shit
15:54<Samu>ah i see what's different
15:55<Samu>the height at which the helicopter starts it's landing
15:55<Samu>sometimes the height is short, and takes less time to land
15:56<Samu>but it's still strange, i think the terrain height is equal everywhere i placed the heliports, much recheck
15:57<Samu>yep, height = 1
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15:57<Samu>there's something i'm missing.
15:57<Samu>the helicopters actually travel up/down some mountains, does that affect their current height?
15:57<Samu>at the time of landing?
15:58<Samu>or does it even affect their speeds?
15:58<Samu>i need another test
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16:06<NGC3982>No man's sky sure got shit when it opened
16:06<NGC3982>But its really nice.
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16:17<Samu>i finally found the issue
16:17<Samu>it is confirmed, traversing through terrain height does increase the landing time
16:18<Samu>not sure if it's intended behaviour, probably is
16:18<Samu>i need to be wary of terrain height now
16:20<@Alberth>mountains give challenges even if you fly over them :)
16:21<Samu>it affects only the landing time, not the speed
16:22<Samu>the helicopter height increases when going up mountains, but does not decrease when going down mountains
16:23<Samu>the higher the height, the longer it takes to land
16:23<Samu>so, is it intended behaviour that it doesn't lower height?
16:24<@Alberth>at least it's not programmed that way :)
16:24<@Alberth>good night
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16:24<Samu>oh well :|
16:29<Samu>N-S: 99 days
16:30<Samu>S-N: 99 days
16:31<Samu>W-E: 97 days
16:31<Samu>E-W: 100 days
16:31<_dp_>Wow, turns out destroying fountains and statues doesn't benefit town growth at all
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16:32<Samu>NW-SE: 143 days
16:33<Samu>SE-NW: 146 days
16:33<ST2>Samu: it's the wind ^^
16:33<ST2>_dp_: all ears ;)
16:34<Samu>SW-NE: 144 days
16:34<Samu>NE-SW: 146 days
16:34<SpComb>!summon frosch123
16:35<_dp_>ok, not with a good layout at least)
16:35<_dp_>ST2, go check town emulator, I added option for removing that stuff
16:35<ST2>something related with the number of buildings?
16:36<Samu>penalty range between 143/100 = 1.43 to 146/97 = 1,50
16:36<Samu>1,43 to 1,50
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16:36<_dp_>ST2, no, just seems that potential of it being replaced it straight up better that of getting a bigger house in its place
16:37<ST2>saw it already (not with latest improvements)... and been last weekend offline - Saber made the work and posted it on our forum ;)
16:37<Samu>I'm unsure if 1,50 is a good penalty for aircraft
16:37<Samu>1,50 seems to be the right value for ships and trains though
16:37<_dp_>ST2, and I even replied in that thread ;) It's a new feature, added it few minutes ago
16:42<Samu>woah, i can't set a speed limit for aircraft t.t
16:45<debdog>they'd stall
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18:31<Samu>do you know of a decent heightmap with a good balance between water, flat land and hilly land?
18:31<Samu>objective is to test ais on them, no matter the transport choice
18:33<Samu>i'd like to avoid lakes
18:33<Samu>also rivers
18:33<Samu>and narrow water passages
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18:56<Samu>think i found a map i like
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19:08<Samu>i'll be using NPF as pathfinder for ships
19:08<Samu>ais do better with npf for some reason
19:09<Samu>automatic reversing at signals, I wonder if this could help some ais
19:09<Samu>will try
19:13<ST2>nah, ninguém dança samba por aqui xD
19:16<alask0ud>asking Samu tho
19:16<Samu>nop, tuga
19:27<Samu>will test all AIs, no vehicle type restrictions of any kind, and with their default parameters
19:27<Samu>solo each
19:27<Samu>for 100 years
19:27<Samu>it's reasonable to do because some ais don't cope well with some restrictions
19:27<Samu>map size reduced to 512x512 though
19:28<Samu>let me count the number of ais
19:29<Samu>38, ugh...
19:29<Samu>oh well
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19:30<Samu>and this time, i'm password protecting the servers
19:31<Samu>or hmm... screw the firewall settings or something like that
19:32<Samu>is it possible to not advertise a dedicated server?
19:33<Samu>server_advertise = false, let's see if this works
19:43<Samu>37? i must have missed some
19:43<Samu>ah, right, 37, the other is a folder
19:45<Samu>guys, pick 8 random numbers from 1 to 37, i don't feel like doing this alphabetically
19:47<Samu>dead chat
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19:54<Supercheese>@rand 37
19:55<Supercheese>@calc rand 37
19:55<@DorpsGek>Supercheese: Error: unexpected EOF while parsing (<string>, line 1)
19:55<Supercheese>I tried
19:56<Supercheese>"The syntax is Python syntax" the bot says
19:56*Supercheese does not know Python syntax
19:56<ST2>if it's like rand(3) that gives 90% of times 2
19:56<ST2>I think it's bribed xD
20:00<+glx>no random in supybot without a plugin
20:01<Samu>just picked the first 8 to test
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20:19<Eddi|zuHause>if rand(3) returns 4, you might be in trouble
20:24<Samu>bad start for civilai
20:24<Samu>the one in the middle
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---Logclosed Tue Aug 23 00:00:09 2016