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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-08-23

---Logopened Tue Aug 23 00:00:09 2016
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04:27<V453000>yo north
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05:21<V453000>north unstable today
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06:31<Samu>hi all
06:33<Samu>I'm trying to come up with "settings every ai author would agree"
06:33<Samu>any hint?
06:34<Samu>the only rule is... no NewGRF
06:39<Samu>should I create a topic asking for it?
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06:48<andythenorth_>Connection up, connection down :p
06:49<andythenorth_>Is way of things
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07:09<Samu>anyone know what is this setting?
07:11<Samu>ah, I think I know
07:11<FLHerne>Samu: Images are usually displayed with horizontal/vertical edges, OTTD maps are diagonal
07:12<Samu>does it also work with generated maps'
07:13<FLHerne>So the heightmap has to be rotated 45° in either direction to align with the OTTD world
07:13<FLHerne>No? That doesn't really make sense
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07:22<FLHerne>Krycho: Hi
07:23<FLHerne>So punctuation!‽¿≠
07:23<Krycho>I would like to install an openttd server on a "Pi Zero" I have at home, but I can't seem to find a guide for it, you guys have any idea how I could do it?
07:23<Krycho>¿?¿?¿? :)
07:24<Krycho>the pi zero is running Jessie and I am running it headless via SSH
07:25<@peter1138>probably "apt-get install openttd" would do the job
07:25<FLHerne>The standard openttd build will run as a server, there aren't any headless packages
07:25<@peter1138>may not be the latest release though
07:26<Alkel_U3>although jessie has quite old version in its repository
07:26<Krycho>so id have to download it run it with it connected to a screen ?
07:27<Alkel_U3>you just run "openttd -D"
07:28<Samu>does vehicle.smoke_amount has any impact on vehicle performance?
07:28<Samu>is it only for looks?
07:28<Alkel_U3>if there isn't a build for your platform, you might need to compile from source
07:28<FLHerne>Samu: Looks
07:29<Krycho>should I be able to see the game on servers after running openttd -D ?
07:30<@peter1138>you'll need to configure it
07:30<@peter1138>there's a load of settings for ... everything
07:31<Krycho>I see it there but it tells me server version is 1.4.4
07:31<Alkel_U3>have fun*BSD
07:31<@peter1138>so it's too old :(
07:31<Alkel_U3>(it's not too complicated)
07:32<@peter1138>well compiling on a pi is not very fun
07:32<Krycho>the problem is the first command it gives me on the site says "E: You must put some 'source' URIs in your sources.list"
07:33<Alkel_U3>I did it on Cubieboard2 with Jessie, it's just long :-)
07:33<Krycho>would it be easier to run on a kimsufi server ?
07:33<Krycho>on debian ?
07:33<Alkel_U3>if you have kimsufi server, yes
07:34<Krycho>just use it as seedbox and teamspeak server xD
07:34<Krycho>any step by step guide for it? cos im dumb as shit
07:34<Alkel_U3>I personaly have very good experience with forpsi VPS
07:35<Krycho>woops xD
07:35<Samu>extend_vehicle_life = 50 - does it mean a vehicle that has a max age of 20 years, would get 70 instead?
07:36<Samu>or is it the model availability that is extended?
07:36<Samu>never tried this setting
07:36<Alkel_U3>the Zero also won't be able to run at full speed during lategame anyway, IMHO. Even the faster, dualcore CB2 was running just so-so a few years back.
07:36<Samu>ok just tried it
07:37<Samu>lel, vehicles max age 70
07:37<Samu>i don't think i like this setting
07:38<Alkel_U3>Krycho: download from here according to your architecture , install.
07:39<FLHerne>Alkel_U3: It's a RasPi, there are no such files
07:39<Alkel_U3>FLHerne: he decided to switch to kimsufi server if I understood correctly
07:40<Krycho>im torn xD
07:40<FLHerne>Alkel_U3: Oh, I see
07:40<Alkel_U3>server on zero won't be too playable, anyway, I think
07:40<Krycho>but wont it give me the same problems?
07:41<Alkel_U3>no because the page I linked has ready packages for Jessie on Intel CPUs
07:42<Alkel_U3>just dowload from there and install it (dpkg -i nameofyouropenttdpackage.deb)
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07:44<@peter1138>yeah, prebuilt for x86_64
07:44<Krycho>pi is arm
07:45<@peter1138>run it on the kimsufi, it'll perform better anyway
07:46<Samu>allow landscaping under buildings, tracks, etc... is this the autoslope?
07:46<Samu>the description slightly changed if it is
07:46<Samu>wiki is not updated
07:50<Samu>build_on_slopes is no longer an advanced setting
07:50<Samu>wiki not updated ugh :(
07:57<Samu>train_signal_side is only visual too, right?
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08:12<Samu>can AIs give money to each other?
08:14<Samu>and shares?
08:15<Samu>well i'm testing them solo, but just curious
08:18<Wolf01>Mmmh, no frog and no north guy, many questions
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08:25<Wolf01>Also, is it possible to fix or at least ignore the overloaded operators "expression mus have a constant value" error in enums?
08:25<@peter1138>enums must have a constant value, so...
08:26<Wolf01>And they have
08:26<Wolf01>It's the operator fault
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08:35<Samu>topic posted
08:35<Samu> i hope it's not in vain
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09:18<Eddi|zuHause>you can only use operators which the compiler can evaluat on compile time, otherwise the result cannot be a constant
09:21<Wolf01>Every enum has this problem if there's a value set with bitwise or
09:22<Wolf01>like ROAD_X = ROAD_SW | ROAD_NE,
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10:11<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: well, then you can't overload the | operator...
10:11<Wolf01>Me? It's in the vanilla code, and every time I open some sources it floods with errors
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>then i can't help you.
10:12<Wolf01>And the poor wolf needs to search for his error in the middle of the others :(
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>sounds overzealous
10:14<Wolf01>Google seem to not be really helpful, Stackoverflow has something but not for this exact case
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10:27<Wolf01>FYI: pushed catenary flag
10:28<Wolf01>No gui, no split, only flag+drawing (no catenary is drawn atm as the bit is always false)
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10:38<@Rubidium>Samu: I have no idea
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10:45<Ethereal_Whisper> such a clusterfuck
10:53<Ethereal_Whisper>Stupid "organic" junctions
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10:53<Ethereal_Whisper>The north-south line crossing over/under the east-west line did not exist at the time of construction and design
10:54<Ethereal_Whisper>So it's a haphazard addition lol
10:54<andythenorth_>Wolf01 nice work on catenary :)
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10:57<Sergey>Help me
10:57<Ethereal_Whisper>How can we?
10:57*Sergey slaps Eddi|zuHause around a bit with a large fishbot
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10:57*Ethereal_Whisper aims a bow and arrow at Sergey
10:58<Sergey>How create owerlapping tiles ?
10:58<Sergey>Sorry my bad English
10:58<Sergey>How create GRF
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11:00<SergeyNem>How create GRF ?
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11:10*andythenorth_ still seeking basic schema
11:14<andythenorth_>Small and fast or small and slow? :p
11:14<V453000>BIG AND FAST
11:14*andythenorth_ no context
11:15<Ethereal_Whisper>Ah, the age-old latency vs. throughput discussion
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>slow and cargo decay modifier
11:19<V453000>andythenorth_: answer is trains
11:22<Ethereal_Whisper>Got a marine station not close enough to the coast? The answer is terraforming
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11:22<Ethereal_Whisper>There, fixed my scroll issue
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11:42<Wolf01>Really unstable today, eh?
11:43<andythenorth_>Hotel wifi, on a phone :p
11:44<Wolf01>Where are you?
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11:45<@Alberth>hi hi
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13:08<Samu>GDDR6 is coming in 2018, i thought GDDR stuff would phase out
13:09<Samu>Samsung plans to have 100 TB SSDs ready by 2020
13:09<Samu>RIP HDD
13:12<Samu>Seagate showcased a 60 TB SSD, 3.5' form factor, finally someone is making 3.5' SSDs
13:13<Samu>60 TB SSD! and here I am with my meager 1 TB HDD
13:13<Wolf01>Do you think this argument belongs to this channel? We talk about Factorio or Europa Universalis here
13:16<@Alberth>it's all equally on-topic :p
13:17<@Alberth>also, you missed lego as topic :)
13:18<Wolf01>Lego doesn't need to be on topic, it's always a fitting argument ;)
13:18<@Alberth>although I fail to see why you'd ever need a 100TB disk
13:19<Wolf01>Risk of losing 100TB of stuff in one single fault?
13:19<Wolf01>Better having 100 x 1TB SSD
13:27<Eddi|zuHause>of course you'd put them in a raid 1/5/6/... to prevent data loss
13:31<Alkel_U3>100TB storage? How else could we move onto SupermegaultraHD™5D movies?
13:31<Wolf01>I still watch DVDs
13:32<Eddi|zuHause>that argument always reminds me how when CDs came out which were larger than any existing HDDs, and people said "you don't need a HDD anymore"
13:33<Wolf01>Then with BR-D was the same, and something popped out even with holodisks
13:33<Alkel_U3>as I only have access to an HD projector, I'd probably watch DVDs, too, but I needed that fourth SATA port for another HDD :-)
13:34<Alkel_U3>too small disks and too low-end board
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13:35<Alkel_U3>now it's demoted to a coffee cup holder without data connection
13:35<Alkel_U3>oh, that reminds me of a story :D
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14:09<SpComb>frosch123: it's irssi default theme log format with HH:MM:SS timestamps, with files named by YYYY-MM-DD
14:12<SpComb>using the EET/EEST timezone, i.e. finnish localtime with DST transitions
14:16<frosch123>sounds like a sed task :)
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14:18<andythenorth_>Connection stays up about 2 mins :p
14:18<andythenorth_>I think this phone drops it when it sleeps
14:18*andythenorth_ does not understand phones
14:19<frosch123>the phone is supposed to understand you :)
14:20<SpComb>frosch123: just sed won't help you with the 03:xx:xx timestamps on 2015-10-25 :P
14:20<SpComb>but the irclogs code isn't smart enough to correctly handle the DST transitions either
14:21<SpComb>and I wasn't smart enough to just convert all the old logs to UTC first
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth_: set it up to not drop connections that are idle
14:28<Samu>darn bankrupts
14:28<Samu>could the bankrupt system be changed somehow?
14:29<Samu>ais disappearing with huge profits is ... meh
14:29<Samu>could there be an option to disable bankrupting?
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14:29<Samu>:( what can I do to avoid ai bankrutping with profits?
14:30<SpComb>and I totally have a plan for replacing SpBot when the machine it's running on goes away, it just involves implementing a cluster of IRC bots written in Go, using etcd for dynamic configuration and writing messages into a kafka queue that gets loaded into an elasticsearch cluster, with some Django web frontend that includes progressive enhancement of some AngularJS components like a websocket streaming stuff from the same kafka queues!
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14:30<SpComb>I would just need a couple months of development time and a nice Docker cluster to run it all on, and it would probably just end up logging #openttd, so I think I'm not going to bother :P
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14:30<Eddi|zuHause>i think my buzzword detector exploded
14:31<Eddi|zuHause>can't we just add logging to DorpsGek instead?
14:31<Samu>EpicTrans should name his companies as EPIC BANKRUPTING COMPANY
14:31<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: psst, dorpsgek always wanted a friend
14:31<SpComb>Eddi|zuHause: frosch123 said he had something as a replacement, dunno what exactly
14:32<frosch123> <- the same thing that logs all the other channels
14:32<Wolf01>frosch123, andythenorth_, I'm wondering what I need to do on NotRoadTypes: let's take the StreetTypes, there will be a "Normal" type and more types like "Country", "Trolleybus" and "Freeway" with different limits and stuff?
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>that needs updating, i suppose
14:33<frosch123>not yet
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14:34<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: the default game will just have "normal", anything else added by NewGRF
14:34<Wolf01>Just trying to figure out what are the "StreetTypes" :P
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14:35<frosch123>Wolf01: mostly graphical variations
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>cobble vs. asphalt, town vs. country, ...
14:35<frosch123>like off-road stuff for heqs
14:35<Wolf01>Because even the "normal" could be split into types
14:35<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: you can't possibly prepare for all things NewGRF authors will come up with
14:36<Wolf01>If it's visual only I could suggest a gui to set the bits for decorations
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>(*vaguely points towards V453000*)
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14:36<frosch123>Wolf01: with only 4 bits for the type, there are not many user options :p
14:36<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: one option that i had in mind was that "country" roads would be ignored by the town growth algorithm
14:37<frosch123>but yes, "allow level crossing", "town growth speed", ... that stuff
14:37<Wolf01>For example I wouldn't put a "road" and "road w/ catenary", because in future we could even have freeways with catenary for el-trucks
14:38<Wolf01>(I always felt even the rails vs rails w/ catenary a duplication)
14:39<Wolf01>But it's too late to change how the game works
14:39<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it's not a "clean" duplication, e.g. "maglev with catenary" makes no sense
14:39<Wolf01>So if we'll need catenary on a freeway, we'll need a freeway wi/ catenary type
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14:42<Wolf01>Btw, nobody stops me to have maglev w/ catenary, or there's a hardcoded limitation?
14:44<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: you could add a flag "maglev cannot have catenary", but then you'd artificially block a railtype slot
14:46<Eddi|zuHause>(assuming you'd want to reduce the railtype slots from 16 to 8, and have the other 8 automatically mapped to a "... with catenary" slot)
14:47<Eddi|zuHause>it would probably simplify a few things, especially the GUI could just have a "... with catenary" button, but it'd reduce the flexibility a bit
14:47<supermop_>Wolf01: Eddi|zuHause: what if the maglev train is propelled by the superconducting track, but uses catenary for powering the lights on board?
14:48<Wolf01>You could have wireless charge
14:48<supermop_>what if in tt land the catenary hanger's union is so strong they will strick if you build any fast track without catenary?
14:48<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: the friction on catenary would pose a speed restriction
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>plus wear, and other stuff
14:49<Eddi|zuHause>it's a terrible idea, really
14:51<Wolf01>Yes, it reduces flexibility, but it's really more easy to understand, you have a button to set the catenary bit in every tile you want (even on bare land, maybe you have an electric tracked vehicle)... the downside is that it breaks the "convert rail" tool
14:52<Wolf01>Which is another point I need to work on: understand what could be converted into the new type
14:53<Wolf01>Specially when you have 2 types on the same tile
14:54<Wolf01>For example, you have a straight road, suddenly a tram crossing (or even a rail crossing) and you are converting the road to "freeway type" which doesn't allow crossings
14:54<Eddi|zuHause>what's there to consider? you can convert all roadtypes into other roadtypes, and all tramtypes into other tramtypes. if the combination is not allowed, or if an incompatible vehicle is on it, the conversion fails
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14:58<Samu>does anyone know who works on EpicTrans?
14:58<Samu>the author is still unknown
14:58<Samu>at least for me
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>the rail conversion originally failed when a vehicle is on it at all, but that was found too restrictive and annoying when converting to electric rail, because it results in forgotten bits and pathfinder errors
15:01<Wolf01>I remember
15:01<Samu>function GetAuthor() { return "Tovermodus"; }
15:01<Samu>who's Tovermodus?
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15:10<supermop_>catenary on empty land -> power lines -> all catenary must connect to a power plant or feeder station?
15:10<supermop_>overhead electric boats?
15:14<@Rubidium>electric planes?
15:15<Wolf01>Put lights in the sky to make landing corridors for planes
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15:17<Samu>i'm investigating epictrans code, it looks similar to wrightai
15:18<Samu>it does have german and english commentaries
15:18<Samu>seems like copy pastes of other ais
15:18<Samu>there's a OTVI part
15:18<andythenorth_>Wolf01 there would be n newgrf defined extra types
15:19<andythenorth_>I wanted to find a way to separate concerns - NotRoadTypes base patch, then extend for newgrf
15:19<andythenorth_>Otherwise it's a big piece of work
15:19<Wolf01>Yes, indeed
15:20<andythenorth_>Newgrf requires defining spec for vehicles and road tiles
15:20<andythenorth_>Updating tools
15:20<Wolf01>I was just wondering why we had different types for just catenary
15:21<andythenorth_>It will grow :D
15:23<andythenorth_>But splitting street/tram is useful meanwhile imo
15:23<andythenorth_>Especially I can now have a hotkey for autotram :)
15:29<andythenorth_>bloody ships
15:29<andythenorth_>Trains and trucks have a logic
15:30<Wolf01>Ok, now we have a catenary bit and gui separation, and I'm too afraid to write ltrail_type.h and tamper with road_type.h
15:30<andythenorth_>We have passenger vehicles, mail vehicles, different kinds of freight vehicles
15:30<andythenorth_>Ships are just a mess :p
15:31<andythenorth_>Wolf01 how completely do you envisage splitting ltrail and street?
15:31<andythenorth_>Does anything remain shared? o_O
15:32<Wolf01>Almost all is the same, functions only need type change on params
15:34<Wolf01>I'm a bit confused and uncertain on what to do: lot of code duplication or lot of changes on existing code
15:36<andythenorth_>I thought mostly change existing code, when I read it
15:36<Wolf01>I think I'll start to make a hardcoded roadtype like "dirt road" and gradually remove the "tram" from "road"
15:37<andythenorth_>Notably the drawing code seemed best unified
15:37<Wolf01>Just to see all the changes it needs
15:37<Wolf01>And then I'll remove the "dirt road" too
15:41<andythenorth_>If you put a temporary 'dirt road' flag on a default vehicle, you'll find all the things like depot list etc that will need patched for newgrf types :)
15:43<Wolf01>That's the fear I had... Also I might need to split vehicles too, but before or after the RoadTypes?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause><Wolf01> I'm a bit confused and uncertain on what to do: lot of code duplication or lot of changes on existing code <-- usually that's the point where inheritance comes in
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>(or templates)
15:44<Wolf01>I don't think the next patch will be a few lines of code
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15:48<andythenorth_>Wolf01 vehicles should mostly be ok, all the heavy lifting on routing & drawing was done years agonfor trams
15:48<andythenorth_>Ago *
15:48<andythenorth_>I saw nothing to suggest splitting RoadVehicle into separate types
15:49<Wolf01>For the same reason I don't find the need to split the RoadTypes, just unpacking them in the right way
15:50<Wolf01>If in future we need another type which works like roads, as trains have (rail, monorail, maglev) we should just add another enum entry
15:51<Wolf01>Splitting gui and grf code is required
15:52<Wolf01>A RoadType filter on vehicle list should already be there
15:53<Wolf01>I could try to do something on unpacking the "StreetType", so I could test a convert tool between paved road and dirt road which don't affect the light rail
15:53<Wolf01>Then remove the dirt road and let the grf doing the work
15:54*Wolf01 needs to study how rail<->elrail works
16:00<andythenorth_>I did some experiments with removal
16:00<andythenorth_>Just need to clear the correct bits
16:00<andythenorth_>iirc bridges and tunnels might be a PITA
16:01<andythenorth_>Can't remember precisely
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16:21<andythenorth>Maybe the tablet irc client is less stupid than the phone one :p
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16:23<andythenorth>horsepower for ships.
16:23<Wolf01>Put kids to sleep and stole the tablet?
16:23<andythenorth>draft :p
16:24<andythenorth>Yup kids asleep, taken ipad :p
16:24<andythenorth>Ships only have 2 dimensions, capacity and speed
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16:25<andythenorth>and speed is not useful, because there.
16:25<frosch123>loading speed :)
16:25<andythenorth>there's no reason to choose anything but fastest
16:25<andythenorth>Loading speed is possible useful, yes
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16:30<supermop__>andythenorth: i had a long rable yesterday about how granularity always beats capacity curently
16:30<supermop__>no reason to use 1 600t instead of 2 300t
16:31<supermop__>unless the big boat has much lower running cost, or fast load speed,
16:34<@Rubidium>or you're reaching the ship limit
16:36<andythenorth>Big ones look cool
16:36<andythenorth>Is the main reason
16:37<andythenorth>In original FISH there was one 360t ship that refitted everything, and was basically the boss choice for most routes :p
16:37<andythenorth>The bigger ones were pointless :p
16:38<andythenorth>I'm not saying I *am* working on a new ship set, but if I was, it might not feature large ships
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17:05<Wolf01>Mmmh, the problem is: how can I have only 2 RoadTypes in the same tile?
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17:06<Wolf01>If I have 3 RoadTypes, 2 streets and 1 tram, I need to have just 1 street and 1 tram
17:06<Wolf01>Not all of them or even 2 street types
17:08<Eddi|zuHause>we have debated that for years. do you really allow multiple roadtypes? or only one roadtype and one tramtype? how to restrict trolleybus catenary to only some road bits?
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>there was never a clear answer what would be best
17:09<Eddi|zuHause>more flexibility needs more bits stored in the map
17:10<Eddi|zuHause>imagine 4 road bits A,B,C,D with roads, then a tram going B,D and a trolleybus route going A,D. how to have no catenary on C?
17:11<Wolf01>Yes, that's a problem we should address, but I can't even start to change this, rails are really different to roads
17:11<Wolf01>Because you can only have one railtype per tile
17:12<Wolf01>(that's the problem with diagonal rails of different types)
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>there were some attempts to alter that
17:12<supermop__>2 railtypes per tile would be nice on diagonals
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>with "stacked tiles" and whatnot
17:13<Wolf01>The problem is that I'm stuck at functions, which all use "RoadTypes" type
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17:13<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc had somthing about that, and there's cirdan's fork
17:15<andythenorth>Wolf01 one street type and one tram type per tile
17:15<andythenorth>Anything else gets horrible
17:15<andythenorth>Really horrible :)
17:16<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: but then, if trolleybus is a street type, you can't restrict the catenary to only some road bits, which will look horrible
17:16<supermop__>255 road types per tile
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17:16<Eddi|zuHause>or you construct the catenary from adjacent tile data
17:16<Wolf01>If I add one RoadType to the enum, it explodes because it looks for 3 road types on the same tile
17:16<TrueBrain>I BROKE IT
17:16<andythenorth>Construct catenary using similar magic to rail catenary
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17:17<supermop__>4096x4096 tram types per tile
17:17<andythenorth>How many ship types per tile?
17:18<Eddi|zuHause>TrueBrain, frosch123: can we have a page that directly links to the latest log entry, instead of this overview page?
17:18<TrueBrain>NO! <3
17:19<Eddi|zuHause>but it's 2 clicks and an "End" button press now!
17:19<andythenorth>Squid has 25 ships. My current idea for scheme requires 84 :p
17:19<TrueBrain>mainly because I have no idea how :p
17:21<TrueBrain>smaller URL, same result :P
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17:23<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: howhigh?
17:23<TrueBrain>lol :D
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17:24<Wolf01>Oh, the stats, I missed those
17:24<frosch123>Wolf01: wait for tomorrow
17:24<frosch123>they are coop only currently
17:24<Wolf01>Yes, I noticed
17:24<frosch123>completely eddi-free so to say
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>haha :p
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>what i always disliked about stats was that the "big numbebrs" usually are from some guys who only ever said 5 lines
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17:30<andythenorth>Ships :p
17:31<andythenorth>Maybe sleep will solve them
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17:35<Wolf01>Yes, I should take a break too
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17:42<Wolf01> wonderful
17:42<Wolf01>Here's your answer eddi
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17:46<supermop__>Wolf01: ive been there
17:50<Wolf01> nice, maybe andy could add these to iron horse
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: what was my question?
17:56<Wolf01>Picky :D
17:58<Samu>the extension .log is not allowed
17:59<Samu>is .txt allowed on forum?
17:59<Samu>oh yeah it is
18:00<Samu>time to rename all my log files
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18:07<Samu>notepad++ is locking up left and right lately...
18:07<Samu>after the last windows 10 update
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18:09<NGC3982>Why is the extention .log not allowed?
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18:15<argoneus>good evening train friends
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---Logclosed Wed Aug 24 00:00:11 2016