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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-08-24

---Logopened Wed Aug 24 00:00:11 2016
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05:15<andythenorth_>Luxury train carriages, improved payment rate, reduced capacity...
05:16<andythenorth_>BAD FEATURE?
05:16<Wolf01>Nah, seems good
05:17<Wolf01>NotRoadTypes didn't let me have a good sleep
05:17<Wolf01>But I have more ideas
05:18<V453000>andythenorth_: it makes no sense to use less capacity for more profit, but sure :D
05:18<V453000> #gameizbroken
05:18<V453000> #moneymattersnot
05:19<andythenorth_>V seems like Doing It Just Because I Could
05:19<andythenorth_>No eye candy benefit
05:19<andythenorth_>No gameplay rationale
05:21<andythenorth_>Wolf01 so...ideas? o_O
05:21<V453000>that way you will end up hating it in 6 months
05:21<Wolf01>Ideas on how to start patching
05:22<andythenorth_>V I am hoping someone says 'no' :p
05:22<Wolf01>Also, ideas on reverting half of the catenary
05:22<andythenorth_>Although the idea is valid for ships I think
05:23<Wolf01>Still no ideas on how to implement subtypes
05:24<V453000>well yeah ships are senseless no matter what you do ;P
05:24<V453000>WETRail is all i'm sayin
05:24<andythenorth_>Wolf01 alberth gave me an enum that could be unpacked to fibd the subtypes, do you mean at that level, or more generally? :)
05:24<Wolf01>More generally
05:25<andythenorth_>V WETRail is a protest vote not a solution :D
05:26<V453000>well it's the best solution we have so far :P
05:27<andythenorth_>Bah maybe ships need a patch
05:28<andythenorth_>What would it do?
05:28<V453000>remove them? :>
05:29<V453000>for a start, colliding with each other would be necessary, which would probably make the pathfinder ultra wtf on CPU
05:29<V453000>because that's one of the reasons why many of the things don't matter with them
05:30<V453000>but other than that it's pretty hard to make them interesting
05:30<Wolf01>Remove ships and make space for more stuff
05:30<andythenorth_>Airplanes have same problem?
05:30<V453000>yeah but airports have capacity limit
05:30<V453000>for aircraft I always thought it is similar to ships, but there is the option of making something like modular airports
05:30<V453000>maybe making modular docks would be the thing
05:31<andythenorth_>I think colliding ships is wtf
05:31<andythenorth_>Docks are the problem
05:31<V453000>you know, unloading area, loading area, waiting area
05:31<V453000>or something
05:31<V453000>with cranes and shit, you name it
05:31<argoneus>good morning train friends
05:32<V453000>ship friends *
05:32<andythenorth_>Seas need weather
05:32<V453000>kraken approachez
05:32<Wolf01>Colliding ships adds more thinking when making routes, specially with canals
05:32<argoneus>ship acquaintances
05:32<V453000>I think modular docks would be right way to go
05:32<andythenorth_>Small ships get sunk by storms
05:33<andythenorth_>But still, does nothing to differentiate types?
05:33<V453000>well it could start making a difference
05:33<andythenorth_>Ha ha ShipDockTypes?
05:33<V453000>if the dock setup is really complex
05:33<V453000>simple to understand but hard to mASSter
05:33<andythenorth_>we have roadstop types
05:34<Wolf01>Cruise ships, you'll get paid on start and then you can forget it
05:34<andythenorth_>pax ships have to go to pax dock
05:34<andythenorth_>Cargo ships to cargo dock
05:34<V453000>it probably doesn't fit into openttd
05:34<andythenorth_>game is about routes yes/no?
05:35<V453000>could have shit like waves shouldn't be able to get into dock etc
05:35<V453000>storm-proof docks
05:35<V453000>slug invasion proof docks
05:35<andythenorth_>and crime of ships is that routes have no challenge
05:35<V453000>well it doesn'y have to be about routes
05:35<V453000>trains are
05:35<V453000>doesn't mean everything should
05:35<Wolf01>Game is about making money, but singe you can make a shitload of money with just 1 aircraft, the game is pointless, at least add complexity to the puzzle part
05:36<V453000>aircraft and ships are about nothing then
05:36<andythenorth_>Yeah true...but it is about routes anyway V
05:36<V453000>making them about airport/station is fine
05:36<andythenorth_>Coulda woulda shoulda, but it's a routing game :p
05:36<Wolf01>Yes, and the route should be fun, not just a traight line
05:36<Wolf01>WTF is with my fingers today?
05:37<andythenorth_>only complexity to ships is bouys, and that is just tedious yak shaving
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05:37<Wolf01>Automatic buoys assignment?
05:37<andythenorth_>infinite capacity per tile, no other transport type has that in ottd
05:37<V453000>remoov shitz
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05:38<andythenorth_>Limiting docks forces ships to take up more tiles
05:38<andythenorth_>also eye candy
05:38<V453000>well mainly it puts them into non-infinite shit
05:38<V453000>and eye candy docks are amazing
05:38<andythenorth_>ok we just need to implement the fucker then
05:39<Wolf01>I would like also one ship per lock, and removing the "sliding locks" which is nonsense
05:39<andythenorth_>But all eye candy tiles are in rail station grfs :(
05:39<V453000>just make 1 ship max at 1 dock at a time
05:39<V453000>don't need to make ships not overlap
05:39<andythenorth_>Locks are stupid
05:39<V453000>grfs -> base shit ? :P
05:39<andythenorth_>I am going to patch locks to be 2 tiles
05:40<andythenorth_>And they need some kind of speed penalty or wait time or such
05:40<@peter1138>i had a patch for that...
05:40<@peter1138>not quite
05:40<andythenorth_>yair :)
05:41<andythenorth_>7mph, 9mph, 15mph :p
05:41<Wolf01>Ships need to be nerfed badly and at the same time made more pleasant to play with
05:41<V453000>fuck nerfing
05:41*andythenorth_ trolling about CanalTypes
05:41<V453000>just need more mechanics
05:41<andythenorth_>one ship per time in locks?
05:42<andythenorth_>I spent 2 boring hours on the hydrofoil in Vienna waiting for lock
05:42<Wolf01>And ship elevators
05:42<V453000>one ship per entity in general makes sense
05:42<V453000>be it a dock or a lock
05:43<V453000>rhyme the fuck out of this bitch
05:43<andythenorth_>problem of locks/canals is, I just lower land to sea level always
05:43<andythenorth_>Because reasons
05:44<andythenorth_>LockTypes? :p
05:45<andythenorth_>Hmm game could auto-bouy when adding orders, pathfinder could figure it out
05:45<andythenorth_>Bouy would have to exist already
05:45<V453000>would be a nice thing
05:45<V453000>certainly much less annoying
05:45<Wolf01>That what I said before
05:46<V453000>idea stolen
05:46<andythenorth_>Might sometimea have stupid results depending on location of bouy
05:46<V453000>max profit
05:46<andythenorth_>But eh
05:46<V453000>it's not like ships currently don't have stupid results
05:46<Wolf01>We also need water levels, with huge ships not being able to travel on shallow water
05:47<andythenorth_>Bouys could maintain a linkgraph of reachable docks
05:47<andythenorth_>Then ship just routes to bouy
05:47*andythenorth_ wavey hands
05:47<andythenorth_>Docks could cache routes to other docks :p
05:48<Wolf01> <-
05:50<Wolf01>Cached routes will be a good idea, maybe they'll need to be cleared once in a while if the terrain/canals change
05:50*andythenorth_ looking at deep water
05:52<andythenorth_>Dunno about deep water
05:52<andythenorth_>Might be like MHL, sounds good, looks good, but zero gameplay effect?
05:53<Wolf01>MAke aircrafts avoid mountains, so Samu will be more happy
05:56<Wolf01>Btw with MHL naturally occurring steep slopes would be a good idea, make the cliffs more eyecandy and tries to avoid lowering an entire row up to the top if you are lowering a tile on the mountain base
05:58*andythenorth_ back to ship set ideas
05:59<andythenorth_>Not sure whether to keep 'utility ships' (refit pax or freight), or ditch them
05:59<andythenorth_>Road Hog does not have this - RVs can't due to stations
06:00<andythenorth_>Iron Horse has it for specific cases of small trains for small routes
06:00<andythenorth_>Otherwise not
06:00<andythenorth_>Pikka's planes all do it
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06:03<andythenorth_>It makes buy menu shorter, but if you run pax mail food to small town, all ships will be same
06:03<andythenorth_>Is realism kind of, except irl it would be one ship carrying all cargos at once
06:04<Wolf01>Make only goods ships
06:04<Wolf01>And reroute every cargo to goods
06:05<Wolf01>Except oil tankers
06:06<Wolf01>It would be good having shore industries which need to be built near roads which produce vehicles, so we could have ferries
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06:11<andythenorth_>Which is worse, long buy menu, or monoculture of vehicles in-game?
06:11<Wolf01>(implementation detail: uses 4 bits each, uses 8 bits free in m8) <- So m8 is completely free or there's an offset?
06:12<Wolf01>struct TileExtended {
06:12<Wolf01> byte m6; ///< General purpose
06:12<Wolf01> byte m7; ///< Primarily used for newgrf support
06:12<Wolf01>I think is free...
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06:13<Samu>is there a setting to change the max distance between 2 docks for ship orders?
06:13<Samu>for YAPF, that is
06:13<Samu>ais don't like 128 tiles distance to be the limit
06:14<andythenorth_>Wolf01 I can't check on my phone, but iirc there was a block of spare bits ;)
06:14<Samu>i see ships with single orders
06:14<andythenorth_>AI can't build bouys reliably?
06:14<Samu>they could
06:14<Samu>but some ais are not prepared
06:14<Samu>i guess they were tested under NPF
06:15<Samu>NPF allows unlimited range
06:15<Samu>but NPF has some other problems though
06:19<Wolf01>Also, if I understood it well, the 4 extended bits for sub road types are the features?
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06:20<Wolf01>Or they are just the index of the sub road type?
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06:28<andythenorth_>They would index to labels (I assume)
06:28<andythenorth_>The type would define the features via newgrf
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06:30<Samu>hmm, from my understanding, reading the log
06:30<Samu>trans wants to transport passengers by ship from Wuwood to Wuwood
06:30<Samu>the city is quite big, but it only uses 1 dock
06:31<Samu>seems to be an AI problem, not a YAPF problem
06:31<Samu>it only has 1 dock total
06:31<Samu>i also see a mention to Mentwood as another possible destination, but I see no dock near Mentwood
06:32<Samu>Mentwood is close to Wuwood, maybe the AI intended to make a connection between Wuwood and Mentwood, not Wuwood and Wuwood
06:32<Samu>I dunno, log isn't clear enough
06:32<Samu>I've already tried YAPF and NPF, it fails on both cases
06:34<Samu>otviai, on the other hand
06:34<Samu>benefits greatly with npf
06:40<@peter1138>multistop docks!
06:40<@peter1138>i had a patch for that...
06:42*Wolf01 googles "how to implement this stuff I'm working on"
06:45<andythenorth_>Multistop newgrf docks? Peter1138 :p
06:47<Samu>from my previous test:
06:48<Samu>terron, otvi, wmdot, nonocab, dictatorai benefit better from NPF than YAPF
06:49<Samu>nocab and trans benefit better from YAPF than NPF
06:50<Samu>dictatorai is difficult to judge
06:50<Samu>could do well on either NPF and YAPF
06:51<Samu>nocab and nonocab are also withing margin of error
06:51<Samu>nocab and nonocab are also within* margin of error
06:51<Samu>maybe not nocab
06:52<Samu>nocab appears to have a better advantage later game with YAPF
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06:53<Samu>terron, otvi, wmdot seem to prefer NPF clearly
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06:54<Samu>nocab seem to have a late game advantage with YAPF clearly
06:54<Samu>I guess overall NPF is preferible for AIs
06:58<Samu>trans appears to benefit better with YAPF
06:58<Samu>interesting... must test this further
06:59<Samu>trans problem is that it generates a ton of lost ships
07:00<Samu>and NPF is prone to having lost ships
07:00<Samu>same as original
07:00<Samu>YAPF seems better on avoiding lost ships, but there's the limitation of 128 tiles max distance which some ais can't cope well
07:04<Wolf01>ShowBuildRoadToolbar(RoadType roadtype) <- I need to pass a sub road type too, or change the RoadType to the SubRoadType and then get the RoadType from that, but I don't know how to define SubRoadType as it should be handled by the newgrfs (I could put there the current ones)
07:05<Wolf01>How does it work for rails?
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07:30<Samu>noob question, i'm trying to fix something on WMDot, i want to have it do unload and leave empty in one of its vehicle orders
07:30<Samu>AIOrder.AppendOrder(MyVehicle, DockLocation, AIOrder.OF_NONE);
07:30<Samu>it's AIOrder.????
07:31<Samu>what do I change it to?
07:37<Samu>gonna try OF_NO_LOAD 
07:49<Samu>YES, it werks!
07:57<Wolf01>ROTF_CATENARY <- I would add a L
08:00<Samu>who's an expert on orders?
08:01<Samu>what's the difference between No loading and unload and leave empty?
08:01<Samu>i think i know, but
08:01<Wolf01>Unload forces the unload even if the station does not accept the cargo
08:02<Samu>I see
08:02<Samu>from an AI standpoint, what would be better?
08:02<Wolf01>Depends on the situation
08:03<Samu>i'm unsure what WmDOT does when the oil refinery disappears
08:03<Samu>i guess unload and leave empty would be better
08:03<Samu>gonna try magic bulldozer the refinery
08:05<Wolf01>You just move the problem to another place
08:05<Wolf01>May be even worse
08:06<Samu>No Load is bad, he keeps adding ships
08:06<Samu>must try unload and leave empty
08:06<Samu>how would I do that?
08:06<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: the subtype is an index into an array, and the array member is filled with data from the newgrf (or marked invalid)
08:07<Samu>AIOrder.AppendOrder(MyVehicle, DockLocation, AIOrder.OF_???????);
08:07<Wolf01>Samu, you should check if vehicles return loaded when they are supposed to return empty
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08:08<Samu>the way the ai works, it keeps adding ships because of the amount of cargo waiting at the oild rig
08:08<Wolf01>The AI is borked
08:08<Samu>if I force unload, he won't add that many ships
08:09<Samu>unless oil rig increases prodcution
08:09<Wolf01>Not the right fix
08:09<Wolf01>You should change the unload station if possible instead of wasting oil
08:09<Samu>well, i am not gonna dwelve into his code, just wanted an easy fix
08:10<Wolf01>Like breaking your other leg to not feel pain in the first one
08:10<Samu>i suppose the AI doesn't expect oil refineries to disappear
08:10<Samu>I'm unsure
08:11<Samu>magic bulldozer isn't the same as saying refinery announced closure
08:11<Wolf01>Eddi, could you guide me a bit?
08:11<Samu>maybe the ai does handle refinery closure
08:11<Samu>but not magic bulldozer
08:11<Samu>don't feel like investigating
08:12<Wolf01>Need more debugging tool, like "force industry closure"
08:12<Samu>ugh, maybe i should
08:14<Wolf01>Eddi, I'm looking at rail.h to get inspiration, I could put in the new road.h some stuff to help the subtypes
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08:16<Samu> case AIEvent.ET_INDUSTRY_CLOSE: Log.Note("Nice event and all, but I have no idea what to do about it...", 4);
08:16<Samu>looks like wmdot doesn't care
08:17<Samu>that means... unload and leave empty is the lesser problem for a quick fix, yet not the ideal solution
08:18<Wolf01>It should shut downs the route
08:18<Wolf01>This is the easiest fix
08:19<Wolf01>At least if you don't want to lose money
08:19<Samu>how would I code that? my skills are bad
08:19<Samu>i don't even know how to put a unload and leave empty order
08:19<Wolf01>Read docs?
08:20<Samu>i managed to do a no load order though, but unload and leave empty seems to be a mix of NO_LOAD and UNLOAD
08:20<Samu>added together
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08:28<Samu>the index UNLOAD does not exist :(
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08:30<Samu>oh, right
08:30<Samu>OF_UNLOAD, not UNLOAD
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08:31<Samu>unload and take cargo.... bah :(
08:31<Samu>must be unload and leave empty
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08:34<Samu>i can't manage to do it, grrr
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08:36<Samu>must find an AI that already does unload and leave empty
08:36<Samu>copy paste skills
08:42<Samu> AIOrder.AppendOrder(vehicleID, roadList[0].tile, AIOrder.OF_UNLOAD | AIOrder.OF_NO_LOAD);
08:42<Samu>let's try
08:43<Samu>YES, i did it :)
08:46<Samu>who's MinchinWeb? does he post on this channel?
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09:06<Alkel_U3>hm, roadtypes... will ice roads have a bonus in curves and corners? :-)
09:09<Alkel_U3>also 5-tile stopping distance
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>Alkel_U3: max_te is a vehicle's responsibility
09:12<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: sorry, i don't have any of the details
09:13<Wolf01>So, I made up a definition for the original roadtypes, I'll have to move the sprite definition too, but I think it could be done later
09:13<Wolf01>Now I only need to fill the _roadtypes[] array
09:14<Eddi|zuHause>that's easy: {default, invalid, invalid, invalid, ...}
09:14<Wolf01>The problem is where... rail seem to do it in newgrf
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>you could just make a dummy function that gets replaced once you do newgrf stuff
09:15<Wolf01>Yes, still no clue where to call it
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>or you could already build in the newgrf stub
09:15<Eddi|zuHause>somewere in the new game code
09:16<Alkel_U3>Eddi|zuHause: well, I wasn't being too serious, but it could be lowered on snowy roads in arctic climate... unless that's a bad feature, of course :-)
09:16<Eddi|zuHause>Alkel_U3: i'm just saying, vehicles that know about roadtypes could do it, but others can not.
09:17<Eddi|zuHause>the roadtype itself has no influence on this
09:17<Alkel_U3>ah, I see
09:17<Alkel_U3>I didn't look at that that way
09:20<Wolf01>It will be possible to set up a max speed for RoadTypes
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10:21<supermop>good morning
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10:34<Wolf01>Nice, sorting the RoadTypes made Tramway first choice
10:34<Wolf01>Not a problem, because I'm still using the old gui
10:36<V453000>TRAMZ > ALL
10:36<V453000>get rekt
10:37<Wolf01>Still no clue on how to add more hardcoded roadtypes of type 'TRAM'
10:38<Wolf01>The function in newgrf.cpp is weird enough to make me desist
10:38<V453000>Yo program, please add dem TRAM rodetypoz. Thanks, yours sincerely fuck you computer.
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10:41<Samu>i'm experimenting wmdot with my fix on the same test conditions i used before
10:41<Samu>let's see if there's a noticeable difference
10:41<Wolf01>Labels need to be exactly 4 chars?
10:42<Wolf01>Or could I use "LTRAIL" and "ELTRAIL" instead of "TRAM"?
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10:46*andythenorth ponders
10:47<andythenorth>1. Restrict ships to only visit compatible docks
10:47<andythenorth>2. Extend that to arbitrary types, newgrf defined
10:48<andythenorth>3. Limit docks to n ship stops, and make ships wait somewhere nearby
10:48<andythenorth>4. Permit multiple docks per station
10:48<andythenorth>5. Change docks to single tile, and allow building on coast or flat land
10:49<andythenorth>6. Enable arbitrary dock graphics per type, newgrf defined
10:49<andythenorth>7. Profit
10:49<andythenorth>Peter1138 where did ships wait for MultiDocks?
10:49<Alkel_U3>also make ships dock broadside when it's already being fiddled with, perhaps
10:50<Wolf01>Mmmh, nothing changed in game, trying now to effectively call the function
10:51<Samu>hey andythenorth, can you improve dock placement checks?
10:51<Wolf01>Need to bypass the GrfSpecFeature
10:51<Samu>to avoid ship blocking when placing docks
10:52<Samu>only water around is not an enough check
10:53<Samu>this is only to help ais, because humans won't place docks purposedly to block ships, but ais may do it by accident
10:53<andythenorth>Wolf01 AIUI there is an enum which correspons to the railtypes, but I don't know how that connects to a newgrf define data structure further
10:54<andythenorth>Bad typing on tablet :|
10:54<andythenorth>There must be some railtype class or something
10:54<Samu>erm, let me screenshot an example
10:55<Wolf01>Yes I already made roadtype
10:57*Wolf01 crosses fingers
10:57<Wolf01>Something exploded
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: labels are just an integer, that they translate to exactly 4 characters is just a convention
10:57<Eddi|zuHause>they can't be more than 4 characters, though
10:59<andythenorth>They map directly to the bits in the map, no?
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10:59<Samu>andythenorth: - ships are blocked
10:59<Samu>ship 1 is blocked because as the ship was arriving at the dock, a ship depot was placed in front of it
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>the map has 4 bits for (rail)type, the label is 32 bit
11:00<Wolf01>Bah, linker doesn't resolve a function call, removing that, useless
11:00<Wolf01>Ok, the game don't explode
11:00<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: did you add the file to sources.lst and then run projects/generate?
11:00<Samu>ship 2 is blocked because the dock to the right was placed when the ship was docking at ship 1 when coming to it from NE-NW direction
11:00<Samu>oops typo
11:01<Samu>ship 2 is blocked because the dock to the right was placed when the ship was docking at the dock to the left when coming to it from NE-NW direction
11:01<andythenorth>Not sure that's related :)
11:02<Samu>when it tries go to the way back, NW-NE, it's blocked by the dock to the right
11:02<andythenorth>Players need to build in better locations? o_O
11:02<Samu>well, players don't have a problem with that
11:02<Samu>ais do have problems
11:03<Samu>they can't easily fix it
11:04<andythenorth>it's an issue, but it doesn't help me design a ship newgrf :)
11:04<andythenorth>I am not an ottd dev, so I can't fix the placement problem
11:07<andythenorth>Fast ships: luxury (payment bonus) or uncomfortable (payment penalty)?
11:08<andythenorth>RL is no guide here
11:08<Wolf01>Oh really, I'm an idiot, I never implemented the function
11:08<V453000>andythenorth: XD
11:08<V453000>usually luxury
11:09<andythenorth>Hovercraft can be quite variable
11:09<V453000>real life rekt
11:09<V453000>then make it hovercat or rubberduck
11:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: scrap fast ships, all ships the same speed.
11:10<andythenorth>I tried that, I think it's a bit limiting on types
11:10<Eddi|zuHause>in a comparison between slow and fast, fast always wins, so might just as well scrap all slow ships then
11:10<andythenorth>it means by 1970 or so everything is hovercraft or hydrofoil
11:14<andythenorth>Also, does the argument hold? Why build metro trains instead of 200mph maglev? o_O
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11:16-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.6.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | if this channel is really spammy
11:16-!-mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
11:16-!-mode/#openttd [+v orudge] by ChanServ
11:16<Alkel_U3>those can have slow acceleration and loading times
11:18<andythenorth>Ship acceleration :p
11:23<Samu>i'm opening a 1 TB log file... zzzzz
11:23<Samu>952 MB (998.860.730 bytes)
11:23<Samu>not 1 TB, but close
11:24<Wolf01>Ekranoplanes, ships that moves at aircraft speed
11:26<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is that the game doesn't model a lot of things that could make shipsinteresting/diverse/useful
11:26<Wolf01>I don't know if ipad let you open the diff to see
11:30<Samu>teshinet crashed again
11:30<Samu>always the same error
11:33<andythenorth>Yeah no diff on ipad
11:34<andythenorth>Eddi assume game *did* offer something (anything), what classes of pax ship would then be interesting to have in game?
11:35<Samu>carries tourists, move super slow, high running costs, hmm... but tourists are super rich and pay a lot
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, let's start with something easy: ferry (high loading speed, fast cargo decay) vs. cruise ship (low loading speed, slow cargo decay)
11:38<andythenorth>Trade station dwell time against travel time
11:39<supermop>ro-ro ferry can carry goods or mail in addition to passengers, watertaxi carries only passengers
11:39<andythenorth>Ferries are for dense cities, like metro
11:39<supermop>water taxi is like metro, big ferry is like regional rail, ocean liners are like inter-city
11:40<supermop>but more so
11:40<andythenorth>But the load time would have to be substantially different
11:41<Alkel_U3>separately refittable cargo holds would be awesome, but that's certainly beyond the scope of this
11:41<supermop>i mean boats should load slower than trains anyway to ofset the infinite capacity of a canal
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>like i said, i wouldn't vary the travel speed too much
11:42<supermop>that or use that old patch that spaces ot ships and the only pass through one another at low speed
11:42<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: yeah
11:42<andythenorth>Eddi not varying travel speeds precludes too many types imo
11:42<supermop>most modern single hull ships go the same speed, gradually increasing with size
11:43<andythenorth>No hovercraft, no hydrofoils
11:43<andythenorth>No jet ferry
11:43<supermop>nuclear icebreakers or supercarriers would be faster in open water than a little motorboat
11:43<Eddi|zuHause>can live without those
11:43<supermop>but not by much
11:44<supermop>newest supercarriers go maybe 40 knots, most small ships are close to that
11:44<andythenorth>Eddi, ships limited to 25mph?
11:44<supermop>need a catamaran to go faster
11:45<andythenorth>Nerfed ships :)
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11:51<@Alberth>hi hi
11:53<Wolf01>Load trains on ships and road vehicles on trains
11:55<@Alberth>and ships on RVs
11:55<Samu>strange, wmdot does fine till the year 2010, then something strange happens
11:56<Samu>sells most ships, keeps only a few, i don't understand
11:56<Samu>sold like 95% of his total
11:57<Samu>seems to be related to old model expiration
11:57<Samu>he can't clone old model anymore by the year 2010
11:57<Samu>could it be that?
11:58<Samu>but old model expires by year 1990, not 2010, hmm must investigate better
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12:05<Samu>question, when did you introduce that thing that doesn't put cargo on stations after a year or so without having a vehicle loading?
12:05<Samu>that kinda ruined wmdot
12:05<Samu>he's always evaluating waiting cargo, but it's always 0 now
12:06<Samu>he got routes with 0 ships :o
12:06<Samu>valid routes, but no ships
12:07<Samu>i guess it would be updating the routes to the new model should there be cargo waiting
12:13<Samu>his route manager is buggy, he says route 47, 48 needs more ships, but it's actually adding them to route 57
12:15<Samu>there is no route 57 group
12:15<Samu>it's being added to route 56
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12:15<Samu>he's using the ship depot close to route 48 to duplicate ships for route 57 which doesn't have a group
12:16<Samu>that means, ships have to cross half the map to reach destination
12:16<Samu>they got to cross about 1000 tiles distance
12:17<Samu>expecting bankrupt at some point
12:17<Samu>he's wasting all his money on ships crossing 1000 tiles, based on waiting cargo
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12:18<Samu>he got £20M in the bank to burn
12:18<Samu>seems the problem only occurs past year 2010
12:19<Samu>let me look at previous screenshots of this problem
12:19<Samu>yeap, 2041
12:19<Samu>that's past 2010
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12:35<Samu>calculate distance going from coordinates 1012,397 to 11,343
12:37<Samu>1055 tiles
12:38<Samu>every 10 tiles, wmdot builds 2 ships
12:39<Samu>there's obstacles in the way, ships actually cross more than 1055 tiles
12:39<Samu>poor wmdot
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12:45<@Alberth>@calc 1.4*(397-343)+(1012-11)
12:45<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 1076.6
12:45<@Alberth>hmm, no
12:45<@Alberth>@calc 1.4*(397-343)+(1012-11)-(397-343)
12:45<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 1022.6
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12:46<Samu>omg i got this all wrong
12:47<Samu>there's route 48 and 49, essentially they got the same orders
12:47<Samu>when the route manager investigates for waiting cargo
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12:48<Samu>it says route 47 and 48, but 48 and 49 have the so 1300 oil waiting at the oil rig
12:48<Samu>the depot of choice is of that for route 48
12:48<Samu>that depot is near that oil rig
12:48<Samu>but... the ships get the wrong orders
12:49<Samu>they get orders that tells them to go to the wrong oil rig
12:49<Samu>making them traverse half the world
12:49<Samu>that wrong oil rig is of route 56
12:49<Samu>and it does not have 1300 oil waiting
12:49<Samu>it's actually fully saturated
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12:51<Samu>my observations are wrong
12:51<andythenorth>So pax-only ships, or universal?
12:51<Samu>darn, i must correct the post, brb
12:52<andythenorth>If universal, then all other ship types are related to pax
12:52<andythenorth>Which is...harder :p
12:53<@Alberth>pax ships have different graphics, don't they?
12:53<andythenorth>Ferries, for example, are pretty universal
12:53<@Alberth>ferry-ish ?
12:54<@Alberth>hmm, true
12:54<andythenorth>RL keeps intervening in a neat and tidy set design
12:54<andythenorth>Silly RL
12:56<Wolf01>Mmmh I need a good steam locomotives video I've not yet seen
12:56*andythenorth needs dedicated ferry dock
12:57<andythenorth>(see logs)
12:57<Nitrodev>should i really go as the tutorial on the wiki suggests
12:57<andythenorth>Whatever it says :)
12:57<Nitrodev>okay then
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12:59<andythenorth>Tutorial is fine, but just skims the surface ;)
12:59*andythenorth just read it
12:59<Nitrodev>well, as i just downloaded the game, and all i have is a single bus going between two stations, i kinda need the start up
13:00<@Alberth>it's useful if you never played the game
13:02<Nitrodev>what andythenorth?
13:02<andythenorth>So Eddi|zuHause the solution is to level all pax ship speeds for any given year?
13:02<andythenorth>But they could all be 'fast'?
13:02<Eddi|zuHause>yes, pretty much
13:03<Wolf01> pfffff it already crashed
13:03<andythenorth>The actual value is atbitrary
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13:05<andythenorth>If there was a hard limit on ship sprite sizes, designing would be much easier :p
13:05<andythenorth>More constraints would help
13:05<andythenorth>But self-imposed constraint on number of ships did mot work :x
13:05<supermop__>Wolf01: man with movie camera
13:06<supermop__>old soviet film from 20s
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13:08<supermop__>has (for the time) ground break train shots
13:11<Nitrodev>sigh, still the train left the coal station without any coal
13:15<@Alberth>no set "full load" ?
13:16<Nitrodev>there we go
13:16<Nitrodev>and it was
13:16<Nitrodev>i think
13:16<andythenorth>30 knot steam pax ships
13:17<@Alberth>the first time a train arrives, there is no cargo, so if you don't say "full load", it immediately leaves, since it loaded everything there was (ie nothing)
13:17<andythenorth>Also, irl, express ships rely on frequency of service, one giant ship not as good as three smaller ones
13:17<andythenorth>Give or take other factors, like passenger numbers
13:18<@Alberth>very big ships :)
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13:21<andythenorth>Ach, pax only ships will do
13:21<andythenorth>Unblocks designing the cargo ships
13:22<andythenorth>No pax-freight universal ships
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13:23<andythenorth>RL doesn't apply
13:23<@Alberth>just show the ships bottom, in the buy menu, and add the top part in refitting :)
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13:24<@Alberth>but having cargo specific ships is much nicer to choose from, imho
13:25<@Alberth>especially pax / no-pax
13:25<Samu>group route 56, with 316 ships, of which only 2 are necessary
13:25<@Alberth>no no, the AI thinks it needs 316 ships, so 316 ships it is :)
13:26<Samu>the AI is now doing this: ship doesn't profit, sell
13:26<Samu>then adds again on the other side
13:26<@Alberth>so it sells all 316? :)
13:26<Samu>316 > 317 > 316 > 317
13:26<@Alberth>haha :D
13:27<@Alberth>one good way to loose your money :)
13:27<Samu>on another note, NPF pathfinder did actually find a path going through 1055 tiles distance
13:28<Samu>no lost ships
13:28<@Alberth>although it's likely hard to prevent these things from happening
13:28<Samu>but extremely slow server
13:29*Matarazzo slaps Matarazzo around a bit with a large fishbot
13:30<Samu>log range for routes is 0-55, group name range for routes is 1-56, i was being mislead
13:31<Samu>just fixed explanation on the topic
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13:35<Nitrodev>should i consider buying a new vehicle if there are many people or mail waiting at a station
13:35<Nitrodev>and station in this case can refer to airports as well
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13:37<Samu>legal question: can I post my modified version of wmdot on the forum? I don't really understand licenses
13:37<Samu>so i'm afraid of doing it
13:41<@Alberth>for what purpose?
13:41<Nitrodev>is it logical to make buses that go between towns?
13:41<@Alberth>Nitrodev: pax (passengers/mail) is hard to handle, you have an endless supply
13:41<Samu>to load my savegame if it's not compatible
13:41<Samu>but i guess it is
13:42<Samu>i've edited wmdot to make his orders at the destination unload and leave empty
13:42<@Alberth>Samu: I'd keep the version for a while, until you hear it couild be loaded
13:43<@Alberth>although it should be fine for this purpose, I think
13:44<@Alberth>if you would publish your own AI, based on wmdot, you'd better give it a new name
13:44<frosch123>yay, finally made the bot work to delete spam from the wiki \o/
13:44<Samu>ah no, i'm not skilled enough for that
13:44<@Alberth>but assuming wmdot is GPL, you can still put the source on the forum
13:44<@Alberth>frosch123: \o/
13:45-!-ChanServ changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.6.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: hg, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Logs: @logs | if this channel is really spammy
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13:46<@Alberth>euhm, ok, thanks ChanServ :)
13:46*frosch123 waits for speech
13:47<@Alberth>Nitrodev: passengers between towns works nicely, pax in both directions :)
13:48<@Alberth>they might have run out of alphabet letter for +"speech" :)
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13:59<Samu>Copyright 2011-2014 by W. Minchin
14:00*andythenorth ponders DockTypes spec
14:01<Samu>Permission is granted to you to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell this software, and provide these rights to others, provided:
14:01<andythenorth>Specifically, whether to optionally preserve current inifinite dock behaviour as option
14:01<Samu>bah whatever, i'll wait for an answer
14:01<frosch123>what should it do when the dock is full?
14:02<frosch123>skip the station?
14:03<andythenorth>But where?
14:03<frosch123>exactly :)
14:03<andythenorth>On the tile, but not loading?
14:04<andythenorth>Or do docks have some pre-defined holding point?
14:04<frosch123>so you want to limit loading speed to 1 ship at a time
14:04<andythenorth>Also must be compatible with the type of dock...
14:04<@Alberth>enable "improved loading"
14:04<frosch123>it already loads only ship, it only starts with the next one of there is enough cargo waiting to completely fill the previous ones
14:05<frosch123>so, are you talking about docks with thousand of cargo wating?
14:06<frosch123>maybe multi-tile docks can just load faster?
14:06<frosch123>ship "length" defines how many docks a ship can make use of
14:08<andythenorth>intent is to a) introduce 'types' for ships by limiting compatibilty to specific docks b) as side effect, increase physical size of docks if lots of ship routes use them
14:08<andythenorth>b is definitely side effect, not intention
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14:10*andythenorth must to dinner, biab
14:10<andythenorth>Also....eye candy :p
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14:14<Nitrodev>i have 106 passengers waiting at one airport...
14:15<Samu>crap, notepad can't open log files over 1 TB
14:16<Samu>what am i supposed to do now? I need to find out if an AI crashed or not
14:17<Samu>i dont feel like installing word, i dont even know if word would open
14:19<Samu>trying wordpad
14:19<Wolf01>Try less
14:21<Samu>it's PAXLink log
14:23<@Alberth>Nitrodev: oh, only 106 :)
14:24<@Alberth>I tend to have 2000 to 4000 :)
14:25<@Alberth>try tail :)
14:26<Samu>I'm trying type
14:26<Samu>type Core5.txt
14:26<Samu>it's scrolling all over it
14:26<Samu>must wait lol
14:27<Nitrodev>i'm losing money
14:27<@Alberth>click on the vehicle list, and sort on income
14:28<@Alberth>look at the vehicles with negative profits :p
14:30<@Alberth>Samu: close the window, stuff scrolls a lot quicker then
14:30<@Alberth>minimize, actually
14:30<Samu>:) i did that, still not reached the end
14:30<@Alberth>1TB is a lot of lines :)
14:31<@Alberth>imagine you have a disk that has 100 times that :)
14:31<Samu>did i say tb?
14:31<Samu>crap, it's 1 GB
14:31<Samu>lol i'm so dumb at times
14:32<Samu>let me see
14:32<Samu>1,06 GB (1.143.425.929 bytes)
14:32<Samu>yeah 1,06GB
14:32<Samu>how did I come up with TB
14:33<Nitrodev>every vehicle is making money...
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14:38<Nitrodev>-3000 dollars
14:38<@Alberth>too much loan?
14:39<Nitrodev>property mainttenance
14:39<Nitrodev>haven't touched loan
14:40<Nitrodev>i mean, i haven't gotten mroe loan
14:40<Nitrodev>since the game starts you off with a loan
14:40<@Alberth>ah, enabled infra structure thingie
14:41<@Alberth>infrastructure maintenance is its name
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14:42<@Alberth>yep, that grows exponentially as you have more tracks/roads/stations/etc
14:42<@Alberth>open the finances windows, bottom right has a "infrastructure window
14:43<Samu>real time priority, zzzz
14:43<@Alberth>zzzzz is very good, especially in horizontal position :)
14:43<Nitrodev>just got annoyed
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14:43<Samu>it can't go any faster than this :(
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14:46<Samu>nice, reachd the end of it
14:46<Samu>AI did not crash
14:46<Samu>still needs 15 more years for 2051
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16:00<Samu>gelignite: did you create gelignAIte?
16:02<gelignite>it's been a while, but yes.
16:04<Samu>ah nice nice, do you want to participate on this topic?
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16:59<gelignite>Samu, sure, but it'll take some time for me to get into that stuff again. as said, it's been a while and i forgot most of it. :-/
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17:16<andythenorth>Is cat
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17:36<andythenorth>Is bed
17:36<andythenorth>Bad connection also
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18:18<Samu>something inside me tells me that the Zen cpus will be slightly below Broadwell level of performance
18:19<Samu>will be between Haswell and Broadwell
18:19<Samu>core ix-4xxx series and core ix-5xxx series
18:20<Samu>intel is launching core ix-7xxx series when zen come out... :( zen will disappoint
18:24<Samu>i even doubt a 4 core zen will match a 8 core bulldozer in some of the benchmarks
18:25<Samu>especially integer multi-threaded based
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19:46<Samu>looks like trees actually affect AI perfomance
19:46<Samu>evil trees
19:47<goodger>is that just if the ents patch is enabled?
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19:47<Samu>affects some ais pathfinder cost predictions
19:47<Samu>i see incomplete roads
19:49<Samu>epictrans bankrupted again, I'm gonna try him on a map without trees
19:49<Samu>if any tree is placed, that's the ai placing them
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20:03<Samu>what is the ents patch?
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20:27<goodger>a joke
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20:37<Samu>epictrans still bankrupts... :(
20:39<Samu>i'm gonna give up on him
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21:38<sim-al2>RIP FLHerne's internet
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22:56<Lejving>Hey. I'm super new to openttd, two questions! Is zbase the "best" hd graphic mod, or at least the standard one? How can I enable more technology from the start (like electric trains), is it just to enter later start date?
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22:59<supermop_>id say ogfx is more of a standard
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23:00<supermop_>if you want different from default trains - including earlier electric trains, there are other train newgrfs
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23:00<supermop_>realistic and non-realistic
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23:01<Lejving>manpower ogfx-industries?
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23:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, "ogfx" is shorthand for "OpenGFX", which is the first free base set that was develped. it is not high-res though
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23:55<Eddi|zuHause>manpower industries is a grf that tries to make the game more challenging by requiring workers and stuff to produce goods
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---Logclosed Thu Aug 25 00:00:12 2016