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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-08-28

---Logopened Sun Aug 28 00:00:16 2016
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03:57<andythenorth_>Is cat
04:05<andythenorth_>Cat ship
04:08<@Alberth>hi hi
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04:10<@Alberth>ship run by cats? :)
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05:20<andythenorth>Ship generations
05:20<andythenorth>Squid only has two
05:20<andythenorth>Roughly 100 years apart
05:22<andythenorth>Probably fine
05:23<andythenorth>I was considering three, fifty years apart
05:25*andythenorth has no question :p
05:26<andythenorth>But fewer generations means fewer sprites to draw
05:26<andythenorth>And makes similar-but different easier for sprites
05:26<@Alberth>yep, that should be quite easier
05:27<andythenorth>So my initial plan was 10 freight types, 3 sizes each, 3 generations
05:27<andythenorth>now 2 sizes, 2 generations
05:27<andythenorth>90 -> 40
05:27<@Alberth>lots of less pixels :)
05:28<@Alberth>sort of minimal set, I guess
05:28<andythenorth>Less minimal than squid, more variety of cargo types
05:29<andythenorth>Refrigerated, livestock, tanker, edibles tanker, logs, fruit, supplies, powder tanker
05:31<andythenorth>Dunno what to do about general cargo
05:31<andythenorth>RH has all of box, bulk, and open trucks
05:32<andythenorth>Which overlap somewhat,nbut give visual choices
05:32<andythenorth>Open trucks refit absolutely everything
05:33<andythenorth>I have some kind of box ship
05:33<andythenorth>But bulk and open might be same for ships
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06:13<argoneus>good morning train friends
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07:49<andythenorth_>'Ship' or 'trader', 'coaster', 'barge' etc for names?
07:49<@Alberth>if you don't mind reality, there is no reason not to put the steering wheel at the front of the ship :)
07:50<@Alberth>"Ship" is a bit stupid, isn't it?
07:50<andythenorth_>'Bulk ship'
07:51<@Alberth>bulk carrier ? not sure if that even exists :)
07:51<andythenorth_>Bulk Carrier is a thing
07:51<andythenorth_>Orders of magnitude bigger than ttd sizes though
07:51<@Alberth> bulk freighter also used for it
07:53<@Alberth>"bulker", also nice :)
07:54<andythenorth_>'Freighter' works
07:55<@Alberth>you seem to have covered all the usual names
07:55<andythenorth_>There are two sizes, dunno if they need 'large" and 'small'
07:58<andythenorth_>Probably not, the visual difference will be obvious
08:05<@Alberth>unless the visual size and cargo capacity don't match :p
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08:09<andythenorth_>I have a workable scheme and some sketches
08:10<andythenorth_>Ships for piece goods, bulk, maybe flat-deck
08:10<andythenorth_>Special types also
08:10<andythenorth_>But there is the problem of unknown cargos :p
08:11<andythenorth_>Might need an 'all cargos' ship :|
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08:14<@Alberth>the 'any ship' :)
08:19<andythen_>Dunno what it should look like
08:20<andythen_>Problem is how to show cargo, which might be in holds, on deck, or 'unknown'
08:21*andythen_ has an idea
08:25<@Alberth>make a generic container-ish thing?
08:26<@Alberth>or big stacks of crates or so
08:26<@Alberth>looks always nice
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10:20<argoneus>andy then
10:20<argoneus>andy now
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10:23<andythenorth>Should river be player-buildable? o_O
10:23<@Alberth>just use canal?
10:25<debdog>sometimes it'd be nice to be able to move a river out of the way to build tracks
10:25<andythenorth>Looks ugly :)
10:25<andythenorth>Newgrf perhaps?
10:26<@Alberth>a canal newgrf with river-ish sprites would work :)
10:27<andythenorth>CanalTypes :p
10:27<@Alberth>but mankind typically builds long straight rectangular things :p
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10:47<andythenorth>Just tankers left to figure out :p
10:48<andythenorth>In a ship set where max size is ~600t, is there any case for tanker that is >600t?
10:48<@Alberth>big tanker, small tanker :p
10:48<andythenorth>Specific to oil rig service?
10:49<@Alberth>seems nice to have
10:49<@Alberth>or you decide that the default set is not important :p
10:49<andythenorth>I think FIRS rigs can get to ~800t / month
10:51<andythenorth>But if bigger for oil, why not bigger for iron ore, coal, wood...
10:53<@Alberth>then it's not an exception for oil rigs? :)
10:53<@Alberth>but obviously, lots of 600t ships works too
10:53<@Alberth>maybe even nicer, as the oilrig gets lots of visits, and they like that
10:54<andythenorth>I rarely use any big ships in Squid
10:54<andythenorth>Not common to have that much output
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11:00<frosch123>we clearny need a 1600t edible tanker
11:03<@Alberth>that would be sufficient food :)
11:05<andythenorth>Can you eat that much tanker? :p
11:07<@Alberth>frosch123: I have updated the fios rewrite patch 130 adds a console file list cache, so up to that could be added to trunk, the other things still need a destination/use. I am in no hurry, so if you're doing something else, we can discuss this next week too
11:07<@Alberth>with a big enough city, you can eat anything :p
11:08<@Alberth>bye andy
11:08<V453000>so max has ultra shitty edge detection and blender has super shitty shadow rendering XD
11:08<V453000>tough choice
11:09<@Alberth>luckily, they're both good at something :p
11:09<V453000>yeah but I need them to do both of those things well
11:09<@Alberth>likely you do
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11:11<frosch123>what's the reasoning behind 40? how do you define filetype and abstractfiletype?
11:11<frosch123>60: typo in commit message
11:11<@Alberth>abstract is high level idea "heightmap", "save game"
11:12<@Alberth>file type is the detailed version, a PNG heightmap
11:12<@Alberth>or OLD savegame
11:13<@Alberth>ie you want to load a heightmap in the gui, and not a png heightmap only
11:13<@Alberth>this is why the thingie that the gui uses has no detailed file type
11:13<frosch123>ok :)
11:14<@Alberth>there are 3 concepts, and we have 3 or so enums with 2 of them
11:14<frosch123>70: why is the numeric value if FT_INVALID important?
11:15<@Alberth>there are invalid files? :) png files, but no png compiled into the program, I guess
11:15<frosch123>no, i mean, why does it need to be 7?
11:16<@Alberth>oh, max number we ever need? later I attach 3 bits to it
11:21<@Alberth>hmm, we could also have an * wildcard value for each enum, and always have a triplet, although it would be weird if at some point it's not *, but some other value
11:22<frosch123>120: when moving BuildFileList, also fix the coding style :p
11:22<frosch123>(more \n in the switch)
11:25<@Alberth>it's fixed in the final result, so I rewrite it at some pont
11:27<@Alberth>in 150
11:32<frosch123>ok, i read it all. but i don't see why you need to encode the enums into a integer
11:32<frosch123>why not just a struct?
11:33<@Alberth>This seemed like the easiest approach in not killing all switches over those enums, mostly
11:34<@Alberth>Although, I didn't check how much chaos that would cause, tbh
11:35<frosch123>they seem to be hardly used
11:35<frosch123>i think you already touched all the places where they are used :p
11:36<@Alberth>most at least, probably
11:36<@Alberth>but I did that in 2 patches, otherwise I could not handle it
11:36<frosch123>the SLA_ ones are used more often, the SL_ ones hardly
11:37<@Alberth>well, it is of course feasible to now always pass the separate concepts, instead of passing a combination of them in an integer
11:39<@Alberth>with or without wrapping them in a struct
11:40<@Alberth>but I was already quite glad I managed to get there :)
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11:42<@Alberth>SLA_* aren't even mine :)
11:47<@Alberth>FIOS_TYPE seems still be used, I didn't venture into the low level fios things
11:53<frosch123>there seem to be about 30 usages of the SL_xxx all together in trunk
11:54<frosch123>so, i wonder whether to replace those places, instead of adding functions to merge the stuff into a single value again
11:55<@Alberth>I'll look into it
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11:56<frosch123>stuff looks nice though :)
11:57<@Alberth>lots of puzzling, why is it like this? I don't understand! :)
11:57<@Alberth>Cleaned out a few globals, although there are lots more
11:58<@Alberth>but it helps :)
11:58<frosch123>well, i can't wait for FT_SCREENSHOT :p
11:58<@Alberth>does that make sense? you can't even decide what an image is
11:59<frosch123>i always have to rename screensots manually
11:59<frosch123>because i cannot enter a filename inside ottd
11:59<@Alberth>oh, I just grab the screen :)
11:59<@Alberth>or a part of it, more commonly
12:00<frosch123>i always press ctrl+s, go to ~/.openttd/screenshot, do ls -ltr, and rename the files to something meaningful
12:00<@Alberth>until you have 50 of those :)
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13:02<andythenorth>supermop__: iz troll
13:02<andythenorth>canada is a sovereign nation :p
13:03<andythenorth>land your tanks on the beach in vancouver, canadian tanks come and shoot at you
13:03<andythenorth>land your tanks in hong kong, chinese tanks come and shoot at you
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13:30<MonkeyDrone>hello homosapiens o/
13:31<frosch123>hoi mammal
13:51<MonkeyDrone>i am a monkey, not a mammal. Thank you very much!
13:53<frosch123>sounds like you are an alien
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13:53<frosch123>if you do not know that monkeys are mammals
13:53<frosch123>hmm, or a computer
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13:58<andythenorth_>Things learnt
13:58<andythenorth_>1. Romans had wine tanker ships
13:58<andythenorth_>2. Standardised wine bottle was invented in Bristol
13:59<andythenorth_>3. 'Tons' originates from 'tuns', large containers of wine carried by ships
13:59<frosch123>in bristol?
14:00<andythenorth_>4. WW1 had wine tanker trains running to the battle lines
14:00<frosch123>i have never heard about wine from uk
14:00<andythenorth_>We imported it :p
14:00<frosch123>ah, so you bottled the stuff from the edible tanker
14:01<andythenorth_>My office building used to be a cork warehouse
14:01<andythenorth_>Cork was imported from portugal, used to bottle wine
14:02<andythenorth_>Seems wine shipping is more important than I knew :p
14:02<frosch123>i wondered about a combination of tanker and tug boat
14:03<frosch123>like transporting low density liquid in self-swimming containers behind the boat
14:04<andythenorth_>big floating barrels? :)
14:04<frosch123>yeah, bunch of barrels in some net,
14:04<andythenorth_>Probably more a V thing than andy thing ;)
14:04<andythenorth_>V should shipz
14:09<@Alberth>they do that with logs of wood :)
14:10<andythenorth_>I like this one, with round tanks on deck
14:11<@Alberth>clearly you should not provide cargo ships for ordinary cargo, only for special stuff that looks good
14:11<frosch123>horizontal tanks are certainly unusual
14:11<frosch123>which makes it good :)
14:12<@Alberth>I would not be surprised if that's something of an industry that is being built somewhere
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14:15<andythenorth_>Nah, it's edible oil tanker, they tend to have extra deck tanks
14:16<andythenorth_>Dunno why
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14:18<andythenorth_>Cheap conversion from cargo ship :p
14:21<@Alberth>so many unique ships :)
14:23<frosch123>does that count as open lids?
14:23<frosch123>hmm, i guess it's just a river boat
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14:24<frosch123>it looked so tall, but considering the cabin it is actually small
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15:52<supermop__>yo andythenorth
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15:53<supermop__>no reason set should have flags
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15:54<supermop__>i'd be curious as to what flag they give a tram from taipei
15:55<Supercheese>White star of RoC?
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15:55<supermop__>Supercheese: that fails their criteria though
15:55*Supercheese shrugs
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15:56<Supercheese>IMO it's too bad the communists won that particular civil war
15:56<supermop__>taiwan doesn't compete as RoC at olympics, but as Taipei
15:56<Supercheese>but that's neither here nor there
15:56<supermop__>Supercheese: well according to some readings the war is simply in a stalemate
15:57<Supercheese>like the Korean War, eh?
15:58<supermop__>and other arguments can be made that leagally Formosa is still a Japanese territory, and as the Japanese army was instructed to surrender to the Nationalist army specifically,
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15:59<Supercheese>whenever I play World War 2 simulators (e.g. Hearts of Iron), I always like to ensure the nationalists win over the PRC
15:59<supermop__>that Japan ceded the island to RoC only, not any larger concept of 'China' of which PRC is the current successor state
16:00<supermop__>As Formosa was not part of China at the beginning of the sino-japanese war, but had been ceded to Japan by Imperial China at the end of the 19th Century
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16:01<Supercheese>looks like IRC is having a civil war...
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16:02<supermop__>the argument being therefor that treaties between japan and china at the end of ww2 do not adequately address the issue of Taiwan's status as it was not 'at stake' in the war
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16:03<supermop__>the treaties generally compell japan to return it's illegally occupied territories to their administrators per status quo ante bellum
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16:06<supermop__>RoC argues that Tawian was not illegally occupied during the war, but rather was a Japanese territory, as Vietnam was a French territory, therefore even though PRC is the recognized successor to RoC on the mainland, this does not apply on Taiwan
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16:07<supermop__>so Japan's action to surrender taiwan to RoC forces is independent from other treaties at the end of the war
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16:08<Supercheese>probably part of why they still exist, rather than being attacked again by the PRC
16:08<supermop__>that and the bad PR
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16:08<Supercheese>the layers and layers of deliberate ambiguity
16:09<Supercheese>sure make analysis difficult
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16:10<supermop__>now that PRC is so integrated with the rest of the global economy, any actual aggressive war would be horrible for business
16:10<supermop__>better to use soft power and displays of force
16:11<Supercheese>well, they're definitely doing that...
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16:12<supermop__>before detente in the 70s, they could have made a go of it, but did not have the position of absolute military superiority they have now, nor could they rely on ussr for outright support as they were under an effective cold war with them as well
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16:13<supermop__>Kuomingtang still was able to conduct raids from their enclaves in Burma at that time as well
16:14<andythenorth>supplies ships
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16:14<supermop__>andythenorth: oversided flatbed deck?
16:15<andythenorth>in RH and IH, supplies vehicles are sized around 40 crates, not larger
16:15<supermop__>also firs: indochina economy
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16:15<andythenorth>how big for supplies ships?
16:15<andythenorth>there's rarely a case to deliver "lots" of supplies
16:16<supermop__>i assume the supplies ship drops off at a frontier dock and trucks deliver to industry
16:16<andythenorth>feeders tend to have balancing issues, and don't work at all with cdist
16:16<supermop__>whatever the 90-day supply req. amount is, ship should deliver
16:16<Supercheese>or perhaps a tad bit more
16:17<supermop__>they seem to work ok with dist to me but maybe i play differently than others
16:18<supermop__>in the office today have to work over weekend, but now can't recall what i need to do
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16:27<ST2>hmmm - WW3 started and everyone runs away?
16:27<Supercheese>lickety netsplit
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16:29<ST2>a "netjoin" now ^^
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---Logclosed Mon Aug 29 00:00:18 2016