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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-09-03

---Logopened Sat Sep 03 00:00:52 2016
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00:54<Lejving>what does a queue between two cities mean in the timetable?
00:54<Lejving>like, I want to decrease the amount of allowed trains between point A and B, do I increase the travel time or decrease?
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02:55<andythenorth>o/
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04:04<andythenorth>meh
04:06<andythenorth>asymmetrical things are bad
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05:01<Wolf01>o/
05:01<frosch123>o/
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05:25<Lejving>my 16 stations are not keeping up anymore =/
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05:29<@Alberth>moin
05:48<frosch123>bah, factorio doesn't follow ottd coding style
05:49<Wolf01>Since when you have rights to look in factorio code? :D
05:50<frosch123>there are 7 lines in yesterdays fff
05:50<Wolf01>Oh shit, missed it
05:52<Wolf01>Btw, they have automated tests, we have just asserts... a bit of unit testing in OTTD should be a good idea
05:52<frosch123>V removed the weird blue outline of the underground belts
05:52<frosch123>Wolf01: we have make regression
05:52<Wolf01>Oh nice
05:52<frosch123>it runs on the compile farm on every commit
05:53<frosch123>other than that we have hundreds of unpaid teenagers
05:53<Wolf01>Oh, cool hi-res pack! Good job v
05:54<Wolf01>"hundreds"... "teenagers", the majority of OTTD players is 30-50 IMO
05:55<frosch123>adult people do not play citybuilder :p
05:55<frosch123>look at samu
05:55<Wolf01>Samu looks like a 12yo indeed
05:56<Wolf01>Btw, I'm having a discussion with VS about visual styles of images in UWP... I need to get rid of some weird problems
05:58<Wolf01>I don't know if it's better to set up a VisualState or try with a converter from "Image = ''" to "Visibility"
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10:42<V453000>frosch123: :P
10:43<@Alberth>o/
10:47<V453000>hi :_
10:47<V453000>:)
10:51<Snail>I have a question for Andy if he’s here
10:51<V453000>yeah, in the last month I do hi res belts at work, come home, do hires brix for a change
10:55<andythenorth>Snail:
10:55<andythenorth>o/
10:55<Snail>hey Andy
10:55<Wolf01>V, do you have hires real life?
10:55<Snail>so, I’m working to implement your “new” cargoes (cassava, beans, coffee…)
10:55<V453000>not sure Wolf01
10:55<Snail>do you have any new cargoes in mind? or any you might add in the foreseeable future?
10:55<V453000>but holding baby so is nice res
10:56<Snail>otherwise I’d have to retouch my recoloring schemes and graphics every time your cargo list is changed ;)
10:56<Wolf01>+1
10:56<andythenorth>Snail: cargo list will likely change every FIRS release
10:56<Wolf01>I still need to hold a girl...
10:56<andythenorth>[new economies -> new cargos]
10:56<V453000>yeah fuck the north for new cargoes, riot 3 2 1 ...
10:57<Snail>hmm
10:57<andythenorth>I am automating cargo placement for my vehicle sets :P
10:57<Snail>how can sets keep up with you then?
10:57<V453000>but if you do it by recolours the it isnt so bad
10:57<Snail>like with cargo classes?
10:57<andythenorth>I can’t keep up with myself
10:58<andythenorth>CHIPS lacks FIRS cargos
10:58<Snail>:D
10:58<Wolf01>XD
10:58<V453000>nuts has all cargoes have unique sprites and like 12 wagon generations :/
10:58<andythenorth>use the new frosch123 thing
10:58<Snail>hmm, what is that?
10:58<V453000>my next train set will rely heavily on recolouring for future proof reasons
10:59<V453000>plus frosch thing
10:59<andythenorth>frosch123 thing can haz a link?
10:59<V453000>with frosch thing recolour should be alpha controllavle
11:00<V453000>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/vehstack_screenshot.png
11:01<Snail>a sprite on top of another sprite?
11:01<V453000>yes like industries/houses
11:02<V453000>can reduce filesize massively
11:02<V453000>esp useful for EZ/32bpp
11:02<Snail>sounds fun
11:02<Snail>so you first draw the empty wagon, then you place the cargo sprite on top of it
11:03<V453000>for example. :)
11:03<V453000>max layers is 4 atm
11:03<supermop>yo
11:04<V453000>oy
11:07<supermop>feel like making something now that work a bit quieter and wedding stuff all done
11:11<andythenorth>trams
11:15<andythenorth>hmm
11:15*andythenorth swaps asymmetrical for symmetrical
11:16<supermop>ding ding
11:16<Wolf01>Nah, you should make two sets, one for each driving side
11:16<andythenorth>I think I did the sounds already supermop :P
11:17<supermop>add trammies
11:17<supermop>and labor disputes
11:19<supermop>http://www.takver.com/history/tram_cv.jpg
11:19<andythenorth>what makes 16?
11:19<andythenorth>5, 5, 6
11:19<andythenorth>6, 6, 4
11:19<andythenorth>Wolf01: how’s NRT? :)
11:19<andythenorth>stuck with something?
11:20<supermop>my wife found that zine for me in seattle and got it due to tram on cover
11:20<Wolf01>Ehm... I have no ides on how to go further O.o
11:20<Wolf01>*ideas
11:21<Wolf01>I was fiddling with something, but I was also really confused
11:22<Wolf01>The main problem is that I can't understand how to fully separate it
11:23<Wolf01>Once I unserstand what I have to do and how, I can start all the bits stuff and unpacket the subtypes as frosch/alberth said
11:24<supermop>all trams have 2 staff until 1990, and which point running cost decreases significantly, but with non-zero chance of all trams breaking/crashing due to industrial action
11:25<@Alberth>always nice when people remember things you apparently said, that you have forgotten yourself already :)
11:26<andythenorth>you said it in a paste which is gone from paste bin now :P
11:26<supermop>where does the game store the crew number of vehicles, for reporting toll in crashes?
11:26<andythenorth>sadly
11:26<andythenorth>Wolf01: afaict, we don’t separate street / light rail when it comes to all the tile code
11:26<@Alberth>oh, I don't contest saying stuff about bits, I just don't remember it :p
11:27<andythenorth>not sure though
11:27<@Alberth>but if it makes sense to you, all is fine :)
11:27<andythenorth>Wolf01: some places, separation or not is potato/potato
11:28<andythenorth>but for drawing it definitely makes no sense to separate handling that
11:28<Wolf01>andythenorth, yes, as I understood the code, it doesn't make sense to completely separate the stuff, but I can't put the subtypes in the middle right now
11:28<andythenorth>were you stuck on faking a newgrf?
11:29<Wolf01>I just wanted to add a non-electric tram and electric tram types for testing purpose, but all the stuff I've done relies on grf code
11:29<Wolf01>(I made the dropdown dynamic as the rail one)
11:30<Wolf01>Also suddenly it seem I can't tell anymore if there's a "tram" loaded, so I can only see road
11:31<andythenorth>probably no vehicle matching the type?
11:31<Wolf01>The loop which checked if a company could build trams (from base OTTD) only finds one road vehicle
11:31<andythenorth>my inclination was to go in baby steps
11:32<andythenorth>perhaps first change the 78 or so calls to RoadType so they unpack the result into StreetType and LightRailType
11:32<andythenorth>but only provide the default road and tram
11:33<andythenorth>that’s a clean objective, then can connect up newgrf stuff
11:33<andythenorth>then handle things like drawing catenary
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11:33<andythenorth>then make the vehicles understand the relevant RoadType props
11:33<andythenorth>in fact, vehicles first
11:34<andythenorth>because need them to test with :P
11:34<andythenorth>catenary second to that
11:34<andythenorth>first / before catenary /s
11:38<Wolf01><andythenorth> perhaps first change the 78 or so calls to RoadType so they unpack the result into StreetType and LightRailType <- that's what I didn't understand, we already have 1 bit which tells if is road or tram, and we'll add 4 more (for each type) to store subtypes, I just have to put somewhere a function which does some bit shifting depending on roadtype
11:38<andythenorth>we lose the 1 bit for road or tram ;)
11:38<andythenorth>no need for it any more
11:39<Wolf01>Because it's already the prop which defines what there's on the tile
11:39*andythenorth looks what’s in m4
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11:42<supermop>yo andythenorth
11:43<supermop>2nd gen mail car in IH colors as a freight car rather than mail/passenger when setting cc
11:45<andythenorth>it does? o_O
11:45<andythenorth>what’s the cargo?
11:45<andythenorth>hmm
11:45<andythenorth>does m4 have 8 bits free for road?
11:45<andythenorth>I can’t figure out if level crossings use 4 of those bits
11:45<supermop>andythenorth: http://imgur.com/a/CthiF
11:46<supermop>cargo is mail
11:46<andythenorth>hmm
11:46<andythenorth>not sure what causes that :)
11:47<supermop>i dont mind mail coloring different than passenger, but seems unintended
11:47<andythenorth>it is
11:48<supermop>tbh mail should color ren, and should recolor any diesel hauling it to red
11:48<supermop>red
11:49<supermop>plus i want sector appropriate logos on side of grey freight locos
11:53<supermop>this is with spi, so maying that messes with mail?
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11:58<andythenorth>maybe
11:59<andythenorth>dunno
11:59*andythenorth tests
11:59<Wolf01><andythenorth> does m4 have 8 bits free for road? <- From wiki "uses 8 bits free in m8"? Also, there isn't m8, which might mean savegame bump, afterload conversion etc etc
12:00<andythenorth>m8 there is a typo
12:00<andythenorth>I think it’s supposed to be m4
12:00<andythenorth>I’ll fix
12:03<andythenorth>still not sure if there are 4 bits free in m4, or 8
12:03<andythenorth>rail uses 4 of them
12:03<andythenorth>and all 8 if it’s signalled
12:03<andythenorth>so level crossing tiles don’t have any bits free in m4?
12:04<Wolf01>Looking in landscape.html
12:04<andythenorth>yeah
12:04<Wolf01>Roads don't seem to use m4
12:05<Wolf01>Rail uses all for signals and fence
12:05<andythenorth>level crossing tiles have no signal?
12:05*andythenorth guessing at this point :P
12:05<Wolf01>No, it's not possible a signal on crossing
12:07<Wolf01>Crossing is on m5 on roads
12:08<andythenorth>ok so we use m4, two blocks of 4 bits, per StreetType and LightRailType
12:09<andythenorth>deprecate m7 7..6 (road, tram)
12:10<andythenorth>Alberth: you pasted some code which would unpack RoadTypes to StreetType and TramType a few months ago ;)
12:10<andythenorth>but…I lost it :P
12:10<Wolf01>I have logs, but I don't remember if I was here, and I wouldn't look for "alberth" in my logs
12:12<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pm1lubn4r
12:12<andythenorth>I think
12:16<Wolf01>Could be
12:17<@Alberth>that's not mine
12:18<Wolf01>Maybe frosch?
12:19<@Alberth>I checked my logs around "StreetType" and I have no posted pastes there
12:20<@Alberth>I don't have that paste name in my logs, except for today
12:20<Wolf01>It was pasted today
12:21<Wolf01>The original got lost
12:21<@Alberth>fair enough
12:22<frosch123>judging by the coding style neither me nor albert wrote that :p
12:22<frosch123>anyway, what is the status for noroadtypes?
12:23<Wolf01>Some gui separation for now, and a lot of confusion
12:23<frosch123>do you store a streettype and a tramtype in the map?
12:23<Wolf01>We'll do, in m4
12:24<frosch123>i prefer to ignore all the track-compatibility stuff, and just go for more graphics
12:24<frosch123>for that you need a concept how to layer the sprites
12:24<Wolf01>That's also an option
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12:25<frosch123>like, road underlay, walkway, tram-overlay, pylons, wires, ...
12:25<frosch123>not sure whether in that order :)
12:25<Wolf01>Defined by grf, which is the thing I'm not really good at
12:26<Wolf01>(I can't even define a copy of a current roadtype)
12:27<frosch123>first you need to define what the roadtype actually defines :)
12:27<Wolf01>Also I think I'll have to revert that catenary thing I added last time
12:27<frosch123>what is underlay, what is baseset, what is newgrf
12:27<frosch123>like for rail: there is a grass-only-groundsprite from the baseset, then a railtype-underlay and railtype-overlay
12:27<frosch123>how to compose roads though?
12:28<frosch123>how to add walkways? trees? lamps?
12:28<Wolf01>Looking at the landscape doc I think with layers we should be able to remove also the m7 bit 5
12:28<frosch123>what is provided by baseset, what by roadgrf?
12:29<frosch123>Wolf01: rails also have that snow bit :)
12:32<andythenorth>should tram provide rails and underlay?
12:32<andythenorth>underlay is only show if no road
12:32<andythenorth>or are there separate sprites for with / without road?
12:35<Wolf01>So, should I start with the paste stuff?
12:35<Wolf01>Or we need another session of brainstorming?
12:37<andythenorth>the stuff I pasted is junk maybe
12:37<andythenorth>not sure
12:37<andythenorth>I can find no local copy of the paste alberth gave me :P
12:41<Wolf01>What about m6 bits 5..3? How whe should interact with them?
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12:43<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxubdgomf <- draft
12:43<andythenorth>what are the m6 bits doing?
12:43<Wolf01>lamps, trees, stuff
12:44<Wolf01>Roadworks
12:44<Wolf01>But there are distinctions between paved and unpaved road
12:45<andythenorth>oh yeah found them
12:45<andythenorth>weird indenting in landscape.html
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12:46<Wolf01>Because those could only appear with m5 bit 7 clear
12:47<Wolf01>And the m6 bit 4? Cat ate that?
12:47<andythenorth>seems those bits are unaffected by notroadtypes?
12:47<Wolf01>Oh wait, only 3 bits, its a decimal number not the bit position
12:48<Wolf01>What about an unpaved tram in the middle of a city?
12:49<Wolf01>Or some other weird combination
12:49<andythenorth>I think those bits are set by town zone no?
12:49<andythenorth>mostly
12:50<Wolf01>Yes, seem so
12:53<frosch123>just ignore those bits :)
12:53<frosch123>leave them to the default roads
12:53<frosch123>newgrfs will have their own idea of townzones
12:54<Wolf01>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/psgp4tw79 -> iv. do not at this stage try and handle multiple types of StreetType, TramType, assume only one of each ... :D
12:55<andythenorth>:P
12:55<Wolf01>5. split types in global construction menu -> done
12:55<andythenorth>frosch123: do you have a github user? o_O https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/wiki
12:56<Wolf01>I'm the gui guy, it was the easiest thing (I did it also to get again confidence with the ottd code)
12:56<frosch123>no, git is shit
12:57<andythenorth>nvm
12:57<frosch123>i have no bitbucket account either though :p
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12:58<frosch123>so you already have a spec?
12:59<andythenorth>somewhat only
12:59<andythenorth>it’s an idea
12:59<Wolf01>In words I think yes, we should do a map of bits and features
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12:59<andythenorth>better yes
12:59<frosch123>i put the sidewalks onto the lowest layer, so that they can be used from the baseset, similar as for bridges
13:00<andythenorth>makes sense
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13:00<frosch123>that allows new tramtypes with default road
13:00<frosch123>but disallows roads from designing the border
13:00<frosch123>i.e. yout cannot make all-yellow roads
13:00<frosch123>since you don't know the exact pixels the baseset uses for walkway
13:01<frosch123>you will always have to make assumptions about the walkway, like for bridges
13:11*andythenorth making all the freight trams symmetrical
13:11<andythenorth>bit of redrawing
13:11<andythenorth>but is nice touch
13:12*Wolf01 prepares to go out alone
13:30<Wolf01>BBL
13:34<andythenorth>bye :)
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14:27<Samu>i'm back to my system
14:27<Samu>visual studio is taking too long to load symbols
14:27<Samu>what are these symbols for?
14:28<Samu>Microsoft Symbol Servers
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14:55<+glx>you need symbols for debugging
14:55<+glx>contains functions names mainly
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15:03<Wolf01>Bah, outside is boring, I won't suggest it
15:07<Samu>just cleaned all objects and stuff, lets hope i can debug
15:10<Samu>meanwhile, I'm testing this https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p9jfcdsya
15:11<Samu>want to prevent towns from building on tiles that contain water
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15:12<Samu>town growth code is quite complex, any advice I should take into account?
15:14<_dp_>Samu, depends on what you want to do
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15:28<andythenorth>Wolf01: outside is raining :P
15:28<andythenorth>where’s that code albert gave me?
15:28*andythenorth looks
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15:34<Samu>I am worried about town growth deadlocks
15:34<Samu>_dp_:
15:34<andythenorth>can’t find that code :P
15:35<_dp_>Samu, build spirals ^^
15:40<@Alberth>andy, maybe just reconstruct it?
15:41<Wolf01>Yes, it should have been just a proof of concept, not a final code
15:41<V453000>fucking shithell
15:41<V453000>XD
15:41<V453000>I made a decision to render in cycles in blender but it's too shit
15:41<V453000>need vray XD
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15:42<@Alberth>or wray, it has more Vs
15:46<V453000>hm I could try to put Vray to blender :D
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15:47<andythenorth>it was code that I would have no idea how to write :)
15:48<andythenorth>it was a replacement RoadTypes enum, and some functions to access it to pick out street or tram
15:48<andythenorth>access / use /s
15:48<Supercheese>roadtypes wot wot
15:49<Wolf01>I think that's my job, you have already to struggle with layers, sprite composition, catenary...
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15:51<Wolf01>The problem is how to structure bits. At firts I thought they were 2 indexes of grf spec, but now I'm not so sure
15:52<Wolf01>Hence the confusion
15:52<Wolf01>What m4 stores? 2 indexes or 2 sets of flags?
15:53<andythenorth>2 indexes
15:53<Wolf01>Ok, so we need to define the spec
15:53<andythenorth>just an integer no?
15:53<Wolf01>Yes
15:54<Wolf01>I always worked with flags where the integer was a combination of features
15:54<@Alberth>GB and SB handles keeping bits together
16:01<Samu_>7>..\src\town_cmd.cpp(1048): warning C4554: '&': check operator precedence for possible error; use parentheses to clarify precedence
16:02<Samu_>if (TrackStatusToTrackBits(GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_WATER, 0)) & TRACK_BIT_ALL != TRACK_BIT_NONE) return false;
16:02<Samu_>parentheses where?
16:02<+glx>after if, before !=
16:03<Samu_>hmm, brb
16:03<Wolf01>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbdvkb8pg could be useful?
16:07<andythenorth>yours?
16:07<Wolf01>A part of my tests
16:08<Wolf01>I would like to start from scratch
16:11<Wolf01>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pjwi4vlhg the full patch, with test stuff too
16:13<@Alberth>I could see roadtypes.h also in src/table, eventually
16:13<Wolf01>Then I found I could just check the misc flags to know ifa a vehicle was a tram :P
16:14<@Alberth>one more mystery solved :)
16:14<andythenorth>yeah it’s just a bool
16:14<Wolf01>But a proper property should be better
16:14<andythenorth>it will likely just be a match between vehicle label and available roadtype labels
16:15<Wolf01>As a misc flag could be used to define which variant of light rail could travel to
16:15<Wolf01>Or other non-important stuff
16:16<@Alberth>nn
16:16<Wolf01>There is the roadtypes.h, line 752
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16:16<Wolf01>Oh
16:17<Samu_>if ((TrackStatusToTrackBits(GetTileTrackStatus(tile, TRANSPORT_WATER, 0)) & TRACK_BIT_ALL) != TRACK_BIT_NONE) return false;
16:17<Samu_>ah got it
16:17<Samu_>ty glx
16:18<Wolf01>I'm really open for suggestions
16:21<supermop>hm what looks better, lay up on down track before up turn, build bay platform and lay up in bay, or build siding/yard down from station to lay up and turn in?
16:23<supermop>layup on the down track is iffy as next down through train comes past 4 days after the train tuns
16:23<supermop>turns
16:23<supermop>vulcan with 5 tile rake likely can't accelerate fast enough to clear the line
16:24<supermop>the minimalist crossover is cute though
16:26<supermop>i guess waiting in a bay platform is good for station raating
16:28*andythenorth can hear Massive Attack playing
16:28<andythenorth>in the rain
16:34<supermop>dont think i've heard massive attack in a good 10 years
16:34<andythenorth>they’re playing live now
16:35<andythenorth>about 2 miles away :P
16:35<andythenorth>open air concert, much rain
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16:41<Wolf01>With the air conditioner on I can hear a cover band playing, just behind my home (300m), don't know which group :P
16:44<Samu_>_grow_town_result - there are several results, hmm must find the list
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17:20<andythenorth>bye
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17:48<Wolf01>'night
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18:05<Samu>hmm problem seems to be with 2x2 grid and 3x3 grid
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18:08<Samu>static RoadBits GetTownRoadGridElement(Town *t, TileIndex tile, DiagDirection dir)
18:11<_dp_>Samu, yeah, they suck
18:11<_dp_>Samu, and if you're looking for infinitely growing layout there aren't many options really
18:11<_dp_>Samu, because anything that has loops or dead ends is gonna stuck eventually
18:16<Samu>i need to read log, i'm lost in conversation
18:16<Samu>@logs
18:16<@DorpsGek>Samu: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
18:19<Samu>hopefully my computer doesn't crash in the mean time
18:19<Samu>okay, the issue I got is with 2x2 and 3x3 grids, about roadbits growth
18:20<Samu>when extending the road in a direction, it still builds on water
18:21<Samu>I see a rb_template that disregards anykind of water in the tile, it only looks at the slope configuration
18:21<Samu>something tells me this is the faulty function GetTownRoadGridElement
18:22<Samu>something needs to be added to check for water in the tile, but how am I doing that?
18:22<Samu>but i may be wrong, the whole town growth stuff is complicated to follow :(
18:27<_dp_>Samu, and what's the problem with water?
18:28<_dp_>Samu, bridge counts as one road tile so except for town zones it hardly affects anything
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18:41<Samu>ah, i see
18:42<Samu> case TL_3X3_GRID:
18:42<Samu>case TL_2X2_GRID:
18:42<Samu>if (!IsRoadAllowedHere(t1, tile, target_dir)) return; is missing there
18:42<Samu>I wonder why
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19:03<Samu>if (HasTileWaterGround(tile)) return; - this function is returning false for coasts....
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20:02<Samu>alright, so houses have been dealt with correctly
20:02<Samu>roads are still messed
20:03<Samu>bridges, I am not quite sure, since they follow the road
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20:09<Samu>i think i've done it
20:09<Samu>for roads
20:09<Samu>just want to make sure...
20:20<Samu>help me at englisho
20:20<Samu> /* Prevent towns from building roads where ships can traverse */
20:20<Samu>can walk? can go?
20:26<Samu>more english help
20:26<Samu> /* Don't build the bridge if the bridge head at the destination is traversable by ships */
20:33<Samu>brb
20:37<Samu>can someone take a quick look? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pywkih1li - this patch is to prevent town growth from blocking ships
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20:43<Samu_>oops, disconnected
20:43<Samu_>@logs
20:43<@DorpsGek>Samu_: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
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21:02<Samu_>ewmm... i broke something, towns don't want to build bridges over rivers
21:03<Samu_>must investigate
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21:28<Samu_>I can't reproduce the issue, :(
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21:48<Samu>http://imgur.com/xxjbIPa
21:48<Samu>can you see the difference?
21:53<goodger>one of them has built a bridge to nowhere at vast expense
22:06<Samu>:o
22:08<Flygon>Town interrijens
22:08<Samu>alright, this one shows the real purpose of my patch http://imgur.com/a/l1xDm
22:08<Samu>the bridge to the left of Kedtown
22:09<Samu>blocks ship passage
22:09<Samu>with my patch, every tile that contains water won't have anything built in it
22:10<Samu>I find it a bit restrictive with bridges though
22:10<Samu>I'm not sure if I like that
22:14<Samu>well, cyas all take care
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 04 00:00:54 2016