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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-09-06

---Logopened Tue Sep 06 00:00:57 2016
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04:00<Wolf01>o/
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07:02<Samu>why is &EnsureNoShipProc on rail_cmd.cpp and not on vehicle.cpp :(
07:10<Samu>darn rail tiletypes ruining dock placement
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07:23<Samu> GetRailGroundType returned RAIL_GROUND_BARREN (0) RailGroundType
07:24<Samu>why is it not returning RAIL_GROUND_WATER
07:24<Samu>what am i doing wrong?
07:25<Samu>http://imgur.com/a/sgJ2V
07:26<Samu>that rail, isn't the ground type RAIL_GROUND_WATER? why is it getting RAIL_GROUND_BARREN ?
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07:27<Samu>ahhhhh, nevermind, my bad
07:27<Samu>the error is mine
07:28<Samu>I was asking the wrong tile
07:28<Samu>tile_cur, not tile
07:31<Samu>problem solved
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07:42<Samu>posted https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75221&p=1176149#p1176149
07:42<Samu>v2
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08:08<Samu>i hate logic
08:08<Samu>i always fail, always have to post a correction
08:20<Samu>v3 - https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75216&p=1176098#p1176098
08:31<Samu>a patch that depends on another patch to make sense
08:31<Samu>oh well... doesnt' matter
08:32<Samu>it works either way
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08:50<Flygon_>Urp
08:50-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
08:50<andythenorth>lo
08:51<Flygon>Can't find a 2CC vehicle list that has the alpha1 vehicles. The lists are for the older .grfs, without the trains between Le Belge and American
08:51<Flygon><_>
08:51<Flygon>SHOWER TIME
08:51<Flygon>Also yo
09:04<Wolf01>o/
09:05<V453000>yo puny humenz
09:27<Wolf01>I need to prepare some wall layouts which can integrate with rails, belts and pipes...
09:28<Flygon>Doop
09:31<V453000>what do you mean integrate?
09:33<Wolf01>I have standard sizes for railways and concrete paths
09:33<Wolf01>Also defences along walls are placed in some ways which allow gates
09:34<V453000>:)
09:35<Wolf01>But not everything could be placed without some manual changes
09:45<V453000>THEN IT IS NOT AUTOMATED ENOUGH
09:46<Wolf01>THAT'S MY GOAL
09:47<V453000>FUCK YEAH
09:47<Wolf01>Also, I have a roboport grid
09:48<Wolf01>There are too many units in Factorio, roboport areas, electric poles areas, underground pipes max length, underground belts max length
09:48<Wolf01>Odd and even sized entities
09:48<LordAro>> complains about the number of different units in #openttd
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09:54<Flygon>C'moooon
09:54<Flygon>It's 1845
09:54<Flygon>There has to be something better than Le bloody Belge
09:56<Wolf01>Pfffff 3 tiles on one side and 4 on the other :(
10:00<Flygon>oh nvm a train just dropped that isn't Le Belge
10:00<supermop>yo
10:01<Flygon>Ey
10:15<Samu>is it really okay to create a topic for every patch I make? :(
10:15<Samu>i got 3 or more tiny patches, but i'm afraid I might infest the forum
10:27<@peter1138>Yes
10:29<Samu>uh, okay... posting
10:34<Samu>done posting, so it was 4
10:34<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=33 - uh...
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10:46<Samu>there was another thing I'd like to post, and it's about that whole issue of ships going to innaccessible ship depots, I am unable to fix that on my own. Too complex for me to handle it
10:48<Samu>then there is yet another issue, but I guess _dp_ is on it, about diagonal distances profiting more
10:49<Samu>not really ship related
10:49<Samu>but also affects them
10:59<_dp_>Samu, there isn't much else to do about it, mostly needs decision not code
11:02<Samu>oh, :(
11:02<_dp_>Samu, and since no one seems to care it's probably not gonna happen
11:04<Samu>oh i care lol
11:05<Samu>i wanted to try the speed penalty idea
11:06<Samu>but seems it was tried and trains look bad with it?!
11:06<Samu>i suggested the penalty on the entire train, not per wagon
11:17<@peter1138>is that the "train moves too fast in diagonals" thing?
11:18<Samu>yes, but it also affects ships and aircraft
11:18<@peter1138>ok
11:18<@peter1138>vehicle obviously
11:18<@peter1138>but nobody uses anything but trains :p
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11:24<Wolf01>o/
11:24<LordAro>/o
11:24<_dp_>peter1138, it actually moves slower, but not enough to outbalance manhattan distance increase
11:29<@Alberth>o/
11:29<Samu>really'
11:30<Samu>how did u find that?
11:30<Samu>slow it moar
11:30<Samu>if its easily editable, that is
11:31<_dp_>or mb not slower... diagonal is 256 units, side is 192
11:31<_dp_>256 / 192 = 1.33 < 1.41 hm, guess it still means it's faster %)
11:32<Samu>it's 33% faster, is that it?
11:35<Samu>1.33/1.5 = wanted speed
11:36<_dp_>Samu, nah, 6% faster compared to euclidean
11:36<Samu>try...( 256/192)/1.5
11:37<@Alberth>@calc 256.0/192/1.5
11:37<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 0.888888888889
11:37<Wolf01>42
11:37<@Alberth>Dorpsgek has it almost right, Wolf01 :)
11:37<Samu>or, hmm
11:38<_dp_>@calc 2**.5 / 1.33
11:38<@DorpsGek>_dp_: 1.06331846795
11:38<Wolf01>Mmmh I'm bored
11:38<@Alberth>play some factorio?
11:38<Samu>i hate math sometimes
11:38<@Alberth>make my dinner?
11:38<Wolf01>Just closed it because I was bored
11:38<Wolf01>Dinner is already done
11:39<@Alberth>:o factorio done?
11:39<Samu>on axis, the distance is 256
11:39<_dp_>and 50% faster in manhattan distance (192/128)
11:39<@Alberth>no no, my dinner isn't done yet :p
11:39<Samu>on side, the distance is 192
11:40<Samu>ah
11:40<Wolf01>Heh, I'm just running all around building walls and obliterating every single alien I find with my 124 destroyer bots
11:40<Samu>ya, 1.5 the magic value i've been trying to figure out
11:40<Wolf01>I need something different
11:41<Samu>distance on axis is 192 or 128? confused
11:43<_dp_>Samu, 192, diagonal = 256 = 2 manhattan
11:46<Samu>axis = 192, diagonal = 256? diagonal distance is bigger than axis distance? weird
11:47<Wolf01>Samu... geometry?
11:47<Samu>gah i hate math
11:47<Samu>what is the side distance a train has to travel on the track?
11:48<_dp_>Wolf01, he probably thinks in screen coords
11:48-!-sim-al2 [~sim-al2@108-221-157-231.lightspeed.mmphtn.sbcglobal.net] has joined #openttd
11:48<Samu>a track on the right side of the tile versus a track on the axis of the tile
11:49<Samu>these are the distances I was trying to find
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11:50<_dp_>Samu, see GetAdvanceDistance@vehicle_base.h
11:50<Samu>oki
11:50<_dp_>that's for trains, for other vehicles it's somewhere else I think
11:51<Alkel_U3>Wolf01: and that's where Dwarf Fortress comes in
11:53<Wolf01>I was more like "that's where C# comes in"
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11:56<Samu>lets try absurdly low values to find out what direction this thing refers
11:57<Wolf01>You should try with a hammer
11:57<Samu>return (this->direction & 1) ? 32 : 256;
11:57<Samu>keks
11:58<Samu>oh, so lower value = faster speed, and that direction means on the axis
11:58<Samu>now i know
11:59<Samu>and it is affecting road vehicles :(
11:59<Samu>not just trains
11:59<Wolf01>If you want to change road vehicles just make them slow down in curves
12:00<Samu>road vehicles are fine (appart from those inconsistencies
12:00<Samu>)but that's another matter
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12:04<Samu>okay 256*1.5 = 288
12:04<Samu>return (this->direction & 1) ? 192 : 288;
12:05<Samu>oops i mean 192*1.5 = 288
12:05<Samu>testing
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12:13<Samu_>nop, something's not right t.t
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12:14<@Alberth>288 doesn't fit in a byte?
12:15<_dp_>Alberth, 256+256 doesn't fit either
12:16<@Alberth>if you like to keep all bits, indeed
12:18<_dp_>Alberth, nah, I just mean that it's being added to progress
12:18<_dp_>Alberth, still can break somewhere else though %)
12:18<Samu_>256 is the maximum value?
12:18<Samu_>t.t
12:18<Samu_>256/1.5 then
12:19<Samu_>170.6666666
12:20<Samu_>return (this->direction & 1) ? (256 * 3) / 2 : 256;
12:20<Samu_>sometihng like that?
12:21<Samu_>or, instead of 256, 255
12:22<Samu_>255/1.5 = 170, no decimals
12:22<Samu_>testing return (this->direction & 1) ? 170 : 255;
12:24<_dp_>Samu_, none of this makes any sense to me :p
12:24<Samu_>well, instead of making vehicles slower on diagonals, i'm making them faster on the axis
12:24<Samu_>:p
12:25<_dp_>Samu_, if you want equal speed in manhattan do 1:2 ratio
12:28<_dp_>Samu_, and leave 256 to keep max income unchanged
12:28<_dp_>Samu_, so, basically it's 128:256
12:30<Samu_>with 256, i'd need a way to get 170.66666
12:30<Samu_>but maybe this test is pointless, let me try this first
12:32<_dp_>Samu_, it's distance, you multiply it by 1.5 not divide
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12:34<Samu>strange, i'm not getting desired results
12:34<Samu>i fail
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12:35<andythenorth>o/
12:35<@Alberth>o/
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12:38<andythenorth>is cat
12:39<supermop>yo andythenorth
12:39<Samu>192 : 256; on axis - 143 days traveling, on diagonal - 99 days traveling
12:42<Samu>170 : 256; on axis - 126 days traveling, on diagonal - 98 days traveling
12:42<Samu>doesn't seem to make sense... what the heck
12:43<Samu>let's try 128 : 256 like u said
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12:45<supermop>time to build a new non-grid transport game i guess?
12:45<Samu>128 : 256; on axis - 95 days traveling, on diagonal - 95 days traveling
12:46<Samu>it achieved parity! yay
12:46<Samu>but... the days traveling on the side also decrease, why's that?
12:47<Samu>the trains are travelling at 5 km/h
12:47-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6A1DA.versanet.de] has joined #openttd
12:48<Samu>over a manhattan distance of 20 tiles
12:51<Samu>meanwhile, I found a bug on my easier dock placement patch
12:51<Samu>gonna fix, brb
12:51*andythenorth wonders what next
12:52<andythenorth>probably un-breaking nml :(
12:53<Samu>andythenorth, are u good at drawing logic? what gets drawn in front of what?
12:53<andythenorth>no
12:53<Samu>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75219&p=1176104#p1176104 - this needs help :(
12:53<Samu>oh well t.t
12:56<andythenorth>Samu: radical approach, remove locks :P
12:56<supermop>andythenorth: andyhouses?
12:56<andythenorth>no
12:56<andythenorth>zero interest
12:56<andythenorth>houses are solved by default game, or by TAI
12:56<andythenorth>I drew a house for opengfx once
12:56<andythenorth>boring :P
12:56<@Alberth>:)
12:56<supermop>but so cute
12:57<_dp_>Samu, oh, good luck fixing z levels :p
12:57<supermop>also that's just a challenge to overengineer procedural houses
12:57<supermop>Samu: looks like a fun ride
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13:09<supermop>can a house set define 1 house only?
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13:24<Samu>i hate logic, i really don't get how it works at the first try
13:24<Samu>i always fail
13:24<LordAro>"i hate logic" ~ Samu, 2016
13:25<Samu>docks are not tiles of type water, something is wrong somewhere, i was able to place a dock in front of the other
13:33-!-andythenorth [~Andy@cpc87153-aztw31-2-0-cust212.18-1.cable.virginm.net] has joined #openttd
13:33<andythenorth>so can hg revert a commit?
13:33<andythenorth>or do I just reverse patch from the diff, and commit that?
13:35<andythenorth>hg backout?
13:36<@Alberth>rollback
13:36<@Alberth>it undoes the last thing
13:37<andythenorth>nah, it’s already pushed to remote
13:37<@Alberth>ah
13:37<andythenorth>I broke nml
13:38<@Alberth>hmm, a reverse commit, should be possible
13:38<andythenorth>now I need to fix my mess :P
13:38<Samu>how do i do this test? "if the tile is not water, deny construction, but if it is not water it can be a buoy, a rail with water on the halftile or an aqueduct. but if the tile is water, but the slope isn't flat or with one corner raised, deny construction"
13:38<Samu>so messed up
13:38<Milek7>hg don't work like git?
13:39<andythenorth>I don’t know
13:39<@Alberth>http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5913424/hg-undo-a-commit-from-history apparently backout
13:39<@Alberth>never used it
13:40<andythenorth>https://www.mercurial-scm.org/wiki/Backout
13:40<andythenorth>I get scared by docs like “ Note that this page no longer tells the whole truth. “
13:40<andythenorth>more mess
13:41<@Alberth>it's the top commit you want to undo?
13:41<@Alberth>start with making a clone
13:41<@Alberth>so you can make a mess without a mess
13:42<andythenorth>it’s the top commit
13:42<andythenorth>in a branch
13:43<@Alberth>make a local clone, then try a backout on the clone
13:43<@Alberth>looks like it should work
13:43<@Alberth>obviously, if not, you can rollback
13:44<andythenorth>ah, maybe frosch just removed my changes
13:44<andythenorth>this might be not necessaty
13:44<andythenorth>necessary *
13:44<@Alberth>the joys of shared repos :p
13:45<andythenorth>I wish we had a trivial way to fork
13:45<andythenorth>nvm
13:45<andythenorth>wishes aren’t horses
13:45<Eddi|zuHause>if you already pushed to the global repo, don't do any of these history-altering operations. just patch -R with the previous commit and commit that as "undo the last change"
13:45<@Alberth>you have, make a local clone, hack, then push back to the mirror
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27655 trunk/src/lang/romanian.txt (2016-09-06 19:45:36 +0200 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>romanian: 2 changes by kkmic
13:45<andythenorth>which mirror?
13:46<@Alberth>the copy you cloned from
13:46<andythenorth>no remote?
13:46<@Alberth>ie I have a clone from the remote repo, my mirror. I make clones of the mirror, hack, and push good changes back to the mirror, then push to remote
13:47<andythenorth>do you have a separate solution for backing up your disk?
13:47<@Alberth>I run an rsync to the 2nd disk yes
13:48<@Alberth>but not sure what's that got to do with it
13:48<@Alberth>basically, I can have many clones from my mirror
13:48<@Alberth>hack on different things without getting in each others way
13:49<andythenorth>my habit is to rely on the remote repo for backup
13:49<andythenorth>and sharing code
13:49<andythenorth>I’ve had too many losses of data to trust local storage
13:49<@Alberth>since it's clone on the local disk, many repo files are actually shared between copies
13:49-!-frosch123 [~frosch@00013ce7.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd
13:49<andythenorth>I need to reset my brain to work differently on this
13:49<andythenorth>:P
13:50<@Alberth>that's fine, you can often decide it's good to push back to the mirror and the remote
13:50<andythenorth>I want to never push to the specific remote
13:50<andythenorth>in the case of nml
13:50<@Alberth>I mostly work in full patch queue, but there is no need to actually do that
13:51<frosch123>hoin
13:51<Milek7>andythenorth: data loses due to hardware failrue or accidental rm -rf? :p
13:51<andythenorth>frosch123: you deleted my breaking of nml repo?
13:52<@Alberth>hoi
13:52<andythenorth>Milek7: either
13:52<andythenorth>both happen
13:52<frosch123>andythenorth: yes, i stripped the branch
13:53<andythenorth>thanks, sorry
13:54*andythenorth experiments
13:54<andythenorth>seems github can import mercurial projects
13:55<andythenorth>ach, it complains about matching authors to their github profiles
13:55<andythenorth>‘complains’ = ‘tries to help’ :P
14:02<andythenorth>yay, now I won’t break official nml https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/tree/NotRoadTypes
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14:04<sim-al2>I have found the ultimate locomotive: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/VR_RT20.JPG
14:05<sim-al2>Check out that huge engine
14:05<sim-al2>And advanced suspension
14:06<@Alberth>git-hg isn't working very well, I tried that too
14:08<andythenorth>yeah, I’m not so bothered about the vcs flavour :)
14:08<andythenorth>I just want easy forks, and devzone isn’t
14:08<andythenorth>there’s quite a lot of inertia to working on a project, when it comes to putting code in public
14:09<andythenorth>for my job, we just use a *lot* of feature branches, try not to ship broken code, and disable jenkins tests for specific branches which are expected to break tests
14:10<andythenorth>I have to change mental attitude a bit to do ottd stuff
14:10<andythenorth>nvm
14:11<andythenorth>frosch123: so I found some houses support in nml, using ID 0x12
14:12<andythenorth>so 0x13 for roadtypes? :P
14:34<frosch123>you can just reassign the town feature
14:34<frosch123>it is most likely only used because everything needs some number
14:34<frosch123>but it is not part of the output
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14:38<frosch123>andythenorth: did you use some different device for irc yesterday?
14:38<andythenorth>no
14:39<frosch123>for some reason the logs of yesterday do not work (they also did not work yesterday)
14:39<frosch123>when i look at the logfile, all fancy characters are weird in your messages :p
14:40<frosch123>but only yesterday
14:41<frosch123>oh nevermind, also eddi is broken
14:43<frosch123>§
14:48<andythenorth>ha ha
14:48<andythenorth>‘eddi is broken’ could be a quote :)
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14:55<Samu>v3 for easier dock placement - https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75221&p=1176149#p1176149
14:55<Samu>hopefully it works for good this time
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>sure.
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15:05*frosch123 blames php
15:06<andythenorth>https://twitter.com/PHP_CEO
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15:07<frosch123>did the capslock broke and he had to stop tweeting?
15:07<frosch123>*break
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15:24<Wolf01>Back from the lego world
15:25<Wolf01>Lol@PHP_CEO
15:33<andythenorth>Wolf01: https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/tree/NotRoadTypes
15:34<andythenorth>no changes yet :P
---Logclosed Tue Sep 06 15:40:15 2016
---Logopened Tue Sep 06 16:05:09 2016
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16:07<Samu>gonna try Terron solo
16:07<Samu>if it errors again, i bet it's the buoy patch
16:10<Samu>errored
16:10<Samu>same empty array
16:12<Wolf01>No buoys in "qt"?
16:13<Wolf01>Chainability is cool, but leds to a lot of errors
16:14<Samu>i made buoy placement to error when there's a ship in the way
16:14<Samu>it used not to give any error and just place it
16:15<Samu>or maybe it's something else, but i suspect it to be the buoy patch
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16:18<supermop>http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2016/09/06/amtrak_s_avelia_liberty_is_going_to_be_better_than_the_acela_in_every_way.html
16:18<supermop>i imagine this will find more us in a NARS game than in real life
16:18<supermop>use
16:18<Wolf01>:P
16:19<sim-al2>Apparently it's the Acela replacement
16:19<sim-al2>so...
16:19<sim-al2>There's also the potential for California to order it
16:20<supermop>yeah seems designed to sell in multiple NA markets
16:21<supermop>had been feeling like cali was leaning more towards hitachi sets though
16:21<sim-al2>Yeah Hitachi looks good too
16:21<supermop>all of their renders show blue and gold n700s or so
16:21<sim-al2>Do they have a US plant?
16:22<sim-al2>If they don't and Alstom does, that could hurt they chances
16:22<supermop>not sure, kawasaki has more than one, alstom has one, siemens has one i think
16:22<supermop>hitachi will build something fast once the rfp goes out
16:23<sim-al2>Yeah, probably
16:23<supermop>but i didn't hear of anyone else bidding on this amtrak order
16:23<sim-al2>There's also Nippon Sharyo making railcars
16:23<sim-al2>I don't know that they would build high speed equipment, but they will be building commuter/regional stuff in short order
16:23<supermop>NS focuses mostly on slow and heavy hauled stock it seems, mostly chicago stuff
16:24<supermop>kawasaki and alstom seem to split the NYC stuff almost 50/50
16:24<supermop>bombardier builds a lot for stuff out here too
16:25<supermop>bombardier and siemens seem to split the light rail market
16:25<sim-al2>The new NS bilevels are supposed to be much lighter
16:25<supermop>but Cincinnati bought from a Spanish builder
16:26<Samu>without the buoy patch and with 14 Terrons I am not getting the error anymore
16:26<sim-al2>But they had a testing failure a few months back, just short of the strength requirements, so now they are delayed
16:27<sim-al2>Bombardier builds a lot of stuff, including locomotives
16:27<sim-al2>Siemens has big plans it seems, not just the locomotives but also new railcars
16:28<sim-al2>Like the ones for Brightline, but i think they are angling for a big order from maybe VIA too
16:28<sim-al2>VIA has a lot of old stainless steel cars that they would like to replace since refurbishing them is fairly expensive
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16:31<sim-al2>CAF has been building new cars for Amtrak, and I think will play a bigger role in the transit market too
16:32<sim-al2>I assume that CAF is the Spanish manufacturer you mentioned, there is Talgo too but they build specialized articulated stuff mostly
16:33<supermop>almost all non-acela, non-genesis services i see at Penn or yards in queens are the new seimens locomotives
16:33<sim-al2>Yeah, the whole HHP fleet is out
16:34<sim-al2>And almost (maybe all now?) AEM7ACs are out
16:34<sim-al2>I think there's a few AEM7ACs doing stuff for MARC though
16:34<supermop>tbh rarely saw HHPs past 2010
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16:34<andythenorth>all the meatballs are gone
16:35<supermop>yep
16:35<sim-al2>Yeah, HHP8 relaiblity was crap
16:35<Samu>isn't VIA a cpu maker?
16:35<sim-al2>All the DC AEM7s are gone
16:35<sim-al2>There's a CPU maker called VIA, but the national passenger operator in Canada is called VIA
16:36<sim-al2>For whatever reason the Acelas are more reliable, but supposedly still tempermental
16:36<andythenorth>should I buy this? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/112123890157?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
16:36<andythenorth>I have no RI locos, and no other passenger cars
16:36<andythenorth>and I want neither
16:36<Samu>i see
16:38<Samu>retesting all 7 ship AIs, all at the same time
16:39<Samu>i mean, all in the same world
16:40<Samu>without the buoy patch of course
16:41<Samu>wormnest isn't around :(
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16:42<Wolf01>andythenorth, purchase unitram from kato, I've seen it at the last model expo and I loved it at first sight
16:42<Samu>i made towns grow very fast, let's see if they build on the right tiles
16:42<Wolf01>https://jmtn.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/unitram2.jpg
16:43<Samu>a tram to transport students inside a university?
16:43<Wolf01>http://www.ngaugeforum.co.uk/SMFN/index.php?action=media;sa=media;in=13733
16:43<andythenorth>tramz
16:44<andythenorth>my kids would like it, at least the younger one
16:44*andythenorth not so much :)
16:44<sim-al2>Samu, there is actually a few systems like that
16:44<sim-al2>http://transportation.wvu.edu/prt
16:44<andythenorth>hmm, maybe I need some unitrack
16:45-!-HerzogDeXtEr [~farci@i59F6A1DA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:45<andythenorth>then I can fill this room without needing baseboards
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16:45<supermop>andythenorth: ho monorails
16:46<andythenorth>kato track is expensive :o
16:46<supermop>once at a japanese language meetup in melbourne,
16:47<supermop>i asked a guy from a city in japan with trams, if they were called 'toden' as i thought
16:47<supermop>he said everyone just called it 'ding-ding' denshya
16:47<supermop>basically 'ding-ding electric train'
16:48<supermop>best/cutest name for tram ever
16:48<Wolf01>:D
16:50<supermop>i wonder what will become of the meatballs
16:50<supermop>i know marc has a few, but NJT neer really ran them i dont think
16:51<supermop>and NJT is so underfunded i am sure they'd take 30 year old hand me downs
16:51<Samu>this is the first time I put NoCAB and NoNoCAB competing in the same world
16:51<supermop>metra doesn't use electric locomotives
16:51<Samu>should be interesting
16:52<andythenorth>this room is about 3m x 11m
16:52<andythenorth>at a guess
16:52<andythenorth>I can’t afford that much track :P
16:53<sim-al2>supermop, they do have the electric line though
16:54<sim-al2>Not locomotives, but bilevel EMUS that look almost exactly like the regular galley cars
16:54<supermop>its all NS bilevel emus
16:54<sim-al2>Not to mention through running with the South Shore emus
16:54<supermop>runs on street in indiana for a stretch, so maybe a big locomotive would be dangerous
16:55<sim-al2>Street running with big locomotives happens all over the US
16:55<supermop>UP - Northwest line should be electrified
16:55<sim-al2>Although the South Shore ones do have to stop for traffic lights there
16:56<supermop>already triple tracked with somewhat high frequency
16:56<sim-al2>Normal US locomotives probably don't have good enough brakes to do that, but it wouldn't be hard to retrofit, albiet with increased brake wear
16:57<sim-al2>Yeah, the problem is that the US freight roads are rather skiddish about having electric lines built over their stuff
16:58<sim-al2>And I think Metra has some major budget problems
17:00<sim-al2>GO Transit in Toronto is going to electrify soonish, which may help get it done in other places
17:00<sim-al2>They have a lot of track, so it will take a whille
17:01<supermop>could meatballs work for electric freight in the northeast?
17:01<sim-al2>No
17:02<supermop>v. fast freight
17:02<sim-al2>Most have been scrapped or are not usable
17:02<supermop>coal unit trains at 100 mph
17:02<sim-al2>The remaining ACs are better used on commuter trains anyway
17:02<sim-al2>Coal trains are too heavy and have too much drag to run at those speeds
17:03<sim-al2>The brakes used on normal freight cars couldn't handle it
17:03<supermop>until we get hitachi to build us some new lightweight HSR hoppers
17:03<supermop>coal emu
17:03<sim-al2>There's no demand for it
17:03<supermop>i demand it
17:03<sim-al2>Lots of unelectrified trackage exists and shippers are fine with it
17:03*andythenorth has run out of things to buy on ebay
17:03<sim-al2>Also demand is dropping
17:04<supermop>actually little demand for coal on east coast at all anymore outside of pizza ovens
17:04<Wolf01>andythenorth, sop wasting money?
17:04<Wolf01>*stop
17:04<supermop>andythenorth: i have a lot of cement at home, how about i cast a bunch of scale monorail rails and sell to you
17:04<andythenorth>‘wasting’
17:04<sim-al2>The other major problem is that Conrail tore up a good chunk of the non-passenger electrified lines
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17:05<sim-al2>Mainly because Amtrak charged a lot to allow Conrail's existing electric fleet to run on the corridor itself, and the locomotives were already aging
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17:19<andythenorth>bye
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17:23<supermop>sounds like the acelas will be clapped out and scrapped by time new trains are all delivered
17:23<supermop>so no cascading
17:24<Wolf01>https://youtu.be/_wj-RrwrQ5s lego monorail which even does corners :P
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17:26<supermop>Wolf01: would certainly make monorails cheaper to build
17:27<Samu>OtviAI still has issues with ships
17:27<Samu>the easy placement of docks is negatively impacting Otvi
17:28<Samu>there really isn't much more i can do without negatively affecting gameplay from a human player point of view
17:29<Samu>he is also placing ship depots in a way it blocks narrow passages
17:31<Samu>he doesn't use buoys, and i allow YAPF unlimited distance, but he still got a ship lost.
17:31<Samu>the problem this time is on YAPF
17:31<Samu>it's not perfect enough to find the route
17:32<Samu>i think overall, the balance is positive, he used to have lots of ships with only 1 order
17:34<Samu>next AI I'm checking is DictatorAI
17:35<Samu>he's also being negatively impacted by the easy dock placement :(
17:38<Samu>2 ships out of 50 are lost
17:39<Samu>DictatorAI balance seems negative :(
17:39<Eddi|zuHause>doesn't sound like a comfortable ride
17:41<Samu>nocab and nonocab seem to be doing fine for now, no lost ships
17:42<Samu>terron is doing fine apparently
17:44<Samu>transcute is doing fine too, for now
17:44<Samu>and wmdot has no ships yet
17:44<Samu>have to wait for oil rigs
17:45<Samu>in short: easy dock placement patch isn't all that good
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17:46<Samu>while it allows more docks to be placed, more routes found by the AIs, the AIs aren't ready to deal with it
17:47<Samu>the water passage is closed upon dock placement, and the AI does not ensure that the passage is still valid
17:47<Samu>t.t
17:48<Samu>otviai already suffered from this with his depot placements
17:48<Samu>now it is escalated with docks
17:49<Samu>as well
17:49<Samu>i suppose I'm gonna revert this change
17:49<Samu>too bad, it was a good change
17:49<Samu>:( t.t bah...
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17:57<Samu>there is also another different kind of "AI" working
17:57<Samu>towns growth
17:57<Samu>so far i have not noticed any issue with it
17:57<Samu>they are growing in the correct tiles
17:58<Samu>i don't notice any water passage being closed due to town growth
17:58<Samu>just as I intended
17:58<Samu>so far, so good
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18:17<Samu>well well, NoCAB also suffers from the easy dock placement patch :(
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18:26<Samu>dictatorai isn't all that great with ships after all, i thought it was better
18:27<Samu>he just build a ship depot on a lake, built ships in there, but the dock they're heading is not in that lake
18:27<Samu>otviai does suffer from this as well
18:28<Samu>a lake, a real natural lake, not river tiles
18:28<Samu>it's sea tiles
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18:35<Samu>i must do something about ship depot exits
18:36<Samu>but i want to do it without adverse effects for the gameplay, it's already not intuitive for water construction
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---Logclosed Tue Sep 06 19:13:45 2016
---Logopened Tue Sep 06 19:15:51 2016
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19:20<Samu>can AIs actually build locks?
19:20<Samu>do they have the means, API or whatever, to build a lock? never seen any build them
19:20<Samu>same as canal tiles and aqueducts
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19:29<Samu>i'm gonna split this patch in two
19:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's because andy failed to grasp the concept of magic water tiles to make sure there's a larger body of water
19:30<Samu>i once had an idea to remove locks from the game
19:31<Samu>and allow ships going up rivers
19:31<goodger>they can't now?
19:31<Samu>nop, it needs a lock
19:32<Samu>makes water construction very tedious
19:32<goodger>well, bugger
19:33<Samu>another idea would be, instead of a lock being 3 tiles wide, make it only 1 tile
19:34<Samu>keep the middle tile, remove the other 2 tiles
19:34<Wolf01>We need proper locks, not even worse than they are
19:35<Wolf01>Also, 'night
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19:40<Samu>lol, nocab got some lost ships because otviai blocked passage with a ship depot
19:44<Samu>alright, i've seen enough
19:44<Samu>time to stop this test and split that patch
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20:30<Samu>patch posted https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=75230
20:30<Samu>another topic open :(
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