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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-09-09

---Logopened Fri Sep 09 00:00:06 2016
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05:38<Samu>the profit impact is real!
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05:39<Samu>I picked a savegame of NoCAB, loaded it in 2051
05:40<Samu>he uses only aircraft, mostly traveling on diagonal directions (horizontal, vertical lines on the image)
05:40<Samu>from 2051 to 2052, the difference was that I applied the speed penalty patch
05:40<Samu>the difference is very noticeable
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05:59<Samu>@calc 239351858/(179279987*(36294815/35171650))
05:59<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.29375829329
06:01<Samu>@calc (239351858/36294815)/(179279987/35171650)
06:01<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.29375829329
06:03<Samu>@calc (239351858-36294815)/(179279987-35171650)
06:03<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.40905826288
06:15<Samu>strange, train testing in a real in-game environment doesn't seem to have much of a penalty, if any
06:15<Samu>in the profits
06:18<Samu>there was a penalty, but very subtle
06:19<Samu>@calc (180786210-5511366)/(176808026-5511366)
06:19<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.02322394377
06:29<Samu>chimaera trains are too fast perhaps?
06:33<Samu>calc (241119448-35068799)/(179279987-35171650)
06:33<Samu>@calc (241119448-35068799)/(179279987-35171650)
06:33<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.42983156485
06:34<Samu>still below 1.50
06:34<Samu>it's a good sign
06:45<Samu>@calc (109887737-9267827)/(97145395-9274227)
06:45<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.14508447185
06:46<Samu>ship profit penalty
06:48<Samu>road vehicle penalty should be non-existant, but let me test
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06:58<Samu>@calc (44634735-5566687)/(44587023-5566467)
06:58<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.00121710208
06:58<Samu>hmm... why?
06:59<Samu>0.1% penalty, almost negligible, but it's still there :(
07:06<Samu>maybe town growth patch is affecting it?
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07:23<Samu>@calc (44634735-5566687)/(44634735-5566687)
07:23<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1
07:23<Samu>heh, town growth patch was skewing results
07:37<Samu>@calc (241119448-35068799)/(178984575-35172755)
07:37<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.43277964913
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07:46<Samu>@calc (180786210-5511366)/(176808024-5511366)
07:46<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.02322395572
07:50<Samu>i don't get the train penalty
07:50<Samu>how's the profit formula for trains?
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07:56<Samu>@calc (79316844-6440028)/(77346567-6440028)
07:56<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.0277869577
08:06<Samu>@calc (105572281-6743636)/(101032310-6743636)
08:06<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.04814969611
08:07<Samu>this is really strange, I must be missing something
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08:48<Samu>@calc 35506/35534
08:48<@DorpsGek>Samu: 0.999212022289
08:48<Samu>@calc 35534/35506
08:48<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.00078859911
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08:52<Samu>@calc (6351757-377283)/(6056535-377283)
08:52<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.05198254981
08:53<Samu>quite honestly, I was expecting a higher profit penalty for trains with the speed penalty patch
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09:33<Samu>something's not quite right on my testings
09:35<Samu>gonna wait 5 years to refresh the timetables and cargo values
09:35<Samu>will look again at the profit on the 6th year
09:36<Wolf01><Samu> something's not quite right on my testings <- the execution state
09:36<Samu>ah, interesting
09:37<Wolf01>You focus too much on a single value without even thinking if that breaks other 100 things
09:37<Samu>i am trying to figure out what it is
09:38<Samu>i think 5 years is enough for every vehicle to restart their routes from order 1
09:38<Samu>loading unpatched savegames might be a bad idea
09:38<Samu>it is using old data
09:40<Samu>if by then train profit is still barely changed, then I don't really know what went wrong
09:42<Samu>feels like trains have a different profit formula than the other vehicle types
09:44<Samu>hi supermop
09:44<supermop>i don;t think i every notice individual vehicle profit
09:45<supermop>once i can afford more than one line, the cash flow is such it rarely makes sense to examine
09:49<Samu>okay, i can't really test this like I'm doing
09:49<Samu>industries close on one of the samples, but not on the other
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10:35*Wolf01 is bored, thinks about bed
10:37<supermop>isn't it like 4 pm in italy?
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10:46<supermop>donut time
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11:00<Samu>does the cargo lose value if they wait too much at stations without being loaded?
11:00<FLHerne>Samu: No
11:00<Flygon__>Your ratings tank tho
11:00<FLHerne>If you leave it for a long while, it evaporates
11:00-!-Flygon__ is now known as Flygon
11:00<Flygon>That too
11:01<Samu>well, then... i have no idea what's wrong
11:02<Samu>when delivering cargo, payment isn't always the same
11:02<FLHerne>"Every 2.5 days station ratings are computed; ratings can't change by more than 2 points per cycle, except after crashes."
11:03<FLHerne>Crashes lose 63 %points
11:04<FLHerne>So, if you had a station with a rating <35%, you could improve the rating by crashing a vehicle next to it
11:04<FLHerne>Gah, not explaining right
11:05<FLHerne>If you increase the service suddenly, you can cause the rating to improve faster than it normally would in the short term
11:05<FLHerne>No, that was a totally useless idea
11:07<Samu>ships profit behave as i expected, road vehicles too, aircraft too, but trains... their profits are barelly changed with the speed penalty
11:08<Samu>I don't understand
11:08<@Alberth>from 100 to 120 is not a big change in time
11:08<@Alberth>from 10 to 30 is much bigger
11:09<@Alberth>ie at slow speeds, the relative impact of a faster vehicle counts much more than at high speeds
11:10<Samu>i saw trains with penalties ranging from 2% to 5%, of course the testing conditions are quite varied, but
11:10<Samu>aircraft got a penalty from 37% to 41%
11:10<@Alberth>10km/h -> 20km/h is a speedup of 100%
11:11<@Alberth>100km/h -> 110km/h is just 10%
11:11<Samu>ship penalty got a penalty of about 14%
11:11<@Alberth>so if your relative fast train is faster or not doesn't make a large difference
11:11<Samu>road vehicles - no change, as I intended
11:13<Samu>i know it depends a lot on how many diagonals are there on the routes, but still.... 2%-5% is quite low
11:14<Samu>but i see
11:14<Samu>trains are already fast
11:14<Samu>aircrafts are also faster
11:14<Samu>but got a much bigger impact on their profit
11:15<Samu>brb let me check my code
11:16<@Alberth>same cargo?
11:16<@Alberth>cargo can also modify the impact on being late
11:16<Samu>er, not really, just loaded an old save and let it run for a few years
11:16<Samu>then compared with 1.6.1
11:16<Samu>the same savegame
11:17<Samu>but i understand that it needs at least a full complete schedulle for every vehicle to refresh cargos values to the new speeds
11:18<@Alberth>that would make sense, cargo departure and arrival times are stored and used in these calculations
11:19<Samu>return (this->type == VEH_TRAIN) ? (this->direction & 1) ? speed * 3 / 4 : speed / 2 : speed * 3 / 4;
11:19<Samu>this is for trains and road vehicles
11:19<Samu>return (this->direction & 1) ? speed : speed / 2;
11:19<Samu>this is for ships and aircraft
11:21<Samu>seems that the problem is there at "speed / 2" - trains on diagonals
11:22<Samu>this alone makes the trains have equivalent travel times, but then, the profit formula... seems to be negating my effort
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11:24<@Alberth>there is also a distance involved in payment, afaik
11:25<@Alberth>the route of the train has nothing to do with that
11:25<@Alberth>the route only affects how fast the train arrives at the destination
11:34<supermop>V453000: can't decide what kind of reflected enviroment to use rendering some chrome products
11:34<supermop>white room seems too boring
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11:36<supermop>also maybe not worth using vray for this. plain curvey chrome seems to render just fine with built in rendered
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11:47<Samu>must think
11:54<Samu>get transported goods income seems to have two different returns
11:54<Samu>GetTransportedGoodsIncome seems to have two different returns
12:08<Samu>time to build a new map t.t
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12:40<Samu>@calc 35600/23160
12:40<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.53713298791
12:40<Samu>@calc (35600-1063)/(23160-1063)
12:40<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.56297234919
12:41<Samu>hmm dont know what to think
12:43<_dp_>Samu, try google, it can calculate stuff without spamming the channel ;)
12:46<Samu>@calc (((35600-1063)/6)*4)/(23160-1063)
12:46<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.04198156613
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13:05<Samu>aircraft completed 7 voyages with speed penalty, vs 10 voyages, in 1 year
13:06<Samu>income per voyage is 63394/7 and 91507/10, running costs is -4206 for both
13:09<Samu>aproximately an impact of ~1,47
13:10<Samu>meh ima give up on this
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14:18<V453000>supermop: usually some HDRI map applied to the environment/dome
14:18<V453000>seriously? :D
14:18<V453000>it takes me 5 hours to reply and he leaves a second before I do
14:19<supermop_>hdri of what tho i cant decide - all of the cool ones are too cool
14:19<supermop_>rendering a towel hook for a bathroom
14:20<V453000>ah, here he is :> hello
14:20<supermop_>hdri of some beautiful european street maybe too excessive
14:20<V453000>well depends, you can always blur the environment to make it less specific
14:20<supermop_>was using one of the grand hall at metropolitan museum of art
14:21<supermop_>what i need is a 360 degree hdri of the inside of a boring bathrooom
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14:28<V453000>or just slap some photo you like on a half-dome
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14:39<V453000> in the last months I learned that making a tileset for pipes like this is utter hell ... but compared to making tracks for openttd it's still awesome :D
14:40<supermop_>V453000: i read that as 'slap some photo like of you'
14:40<supermop_>i think thats what i should do - my face as environment dome
14:40<V453000>that's optional supermop_ :P
14:41<supermop_>embarassing - i forgot how to set a folder to show file extensions
14:44<Samu>sum of all the sublocations of each track that a vehicle steps into, to get the total distance travelled
14:45<V453000>supermop_: I just use total commander for that
14:45<V453000>but I guess you could google it :P
14:46<supermop_>i had to google it
14:46<Samu>or just the sum of diagonal directions~
14:46<supermop_>something i've done 1000 timess tho
14:47<Samu>adjusting profit formula may an alternative
14:47<Samu>an alternative to the speed penalty
14:48<Samu>Altered Manhattan perhaps
14:49<Samu>but road vehicles will suffer
14:52<Samu>will openttd ever have diagonal roads?
14:52<Samu>i heard u guys talking about notroadtypes
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14:53<Samu>make roads more like another rail type, rail of type road, then put all road vehicles there? :p
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15:00<Wolf01>I suspect we bot were waiting for this
15:00<andythenorth>both are bots?
15:05<Wolf01>Any improvement with NRT?
15:05<andythenorth>nothing so far
15:06<andythenorth>I will poke at nml…but life
15:06<Samu>so i was thinking of this formula I'm inventing
15:07<Samu>it's based on DistanceManhatan
15:07<Samu> const uint dx = Delta(TileX(t0), TileX(t1)); const uint dy = Delta(TileY(t0), TileY(t1)); return dx + dy;
15:07<Samu>instead of return dx + dy
15:07<Samu>it would be return dx + dy + Delta(dx, dy);
15:09<Samu>or maybe - Delta(dx, dy)
15:10*andythenorth ponders
15:10<Samu>have to think this better
15:10<andythenorth>could we reduce the inertia to forks and patches?
15:11<andythenorth>assumes git, sadly
15:12*andythenorth can’t find a hghub
15:13<Samu>is this a known formula, or did i make it up?
15:14<Samu>trying to google and can't get anything similar
15:14<Wolf01>Are you just adding numbers or it has some sense?
15:15<andythenorth>looks like first order differentiation
15:16<andythenorth>as far as I can remember from 20 years ago
15:16<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause will know
15:16<Wolf01>isn't it just 2*dx+dy?
15:17<Wolf01>Oh, no, it has different vars
15:17<Samu>return dx + dy - Delta(dx, dy);
15:17<Samu>I am "shortening" the distance because vehicles go faster on diagonals
15:18<Samu>when calculating payment, the distance it gets is smaller
15:18<Samu>but i am also wondering if this makes any sense
15:18<Wolf01>So, you are changing the distance when the problem is the speed?
15:20<_dp_>Wolf01, who said speed is the problem? ;)
15:21<_dp_>It all depends on what metrics you consider to be right :p
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15:25<Samu>A(1, 1)
15:25<Samu>dx = 0, dy = 1
15:25<Samu>0+1-1 = 0
15:25<Samu>RIP formula
15:30<Samu>really bad formula, heh i'm noob
15:30<_dp_>Samu, did even read that payment topic? There are bunch of formulas already
15:31<Samu>gonna read
15:31<Samu>i saw them, but at the time i was focused on speed penalty, didn't give much credit
15:33<oftcrash>Anyone familiar with graphviz?
15:34<oftcrash>I'm getting the following error when compiling FIRS locally when its trying to generate the SVG:
15:34<oftcrash>*** [html_docs] Segmentation fault: 11
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15:40<andythenorth>what OS etc?
15:42<Samu>I read that floating values are bad for multiplayer
15:43<oftcrash>Mac OS 10.9.5
15:43<oftcrash>python 2.7.5
15:44<oftcrash>I used brew to install graphvis
15:44<oftcrash>it looks like its creating the docs/cargoflow.dotall file
15:44<andythenorth>I’m on 10.10.5 with graphviz from macports
15:45<oftcrash>I might have ports installed too. I'll try uninstalling and reinstalling
15:47<oftcrash>or not. I seem to have uninstalled it
15:47<oftcrash>the homebrew copy seemed up to date though
15:47<oftcrash>maybe its something in 10.9
15:47<andythenorth>my experience, don’t have macports and brew both trying to manage ports :)
15:48<andythenorth>causes trouble
15:48<oftcrash>yeah, I think that's why I got rid of macports - it was a few years ago
15:49<andythenorth>oftcrash: does it work with vanilla FIRS?
15:49<andythenorth>just wondering if it’s the file, or graphviz
15:49<oftcrash>good question, Let me check
15:50<andythenorth>there appears to be this
15:53<oftcrash>Ah so they do show different versions
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15:54<oftcrash>Why can't they just list the numeric version instead of the silly animals
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15:57<andythenorth>oftcrash: :P
15:57<oftcrash>doesn't work with vanilla firs either
15:58<oftcrash>hah, nice
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16:00<andythenorth>oftcrash: does the python compile work? o_O
16:00*andythenorth is curious, because it’s a python 3 build
16:02<oftcrash>yeah, the NML compiles
16:02<oftcrash>I have python 3 as well, but I haven't tried the make in that
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16:02<oftcrash>though I've messed with it so much, it may be defaulting to 3 now
16:03<oftcrash>I set it up a while ago
16:03<andythenorth>what happens if you type ‘python’?
16:03<oftcrash>in fact... yeah, it is 3. I've been using the latest NML
16:03<andythenorth>or ‘which python'
16:03<oftcrash>python takes me to 2.7.5
16:03<andythenorth>might be you’re encountering this
16:04<oftcrash>python3 is my command line for 3 (obviously)
16:04<oftcrash>I got it to run in the web interface
16:04<oftcrash>but I had to remove all the pound signs in front the <TR> tags
16:05<oftcrash>Its enough for now at least :) - I have to look at my whole setup again. I haven't reimaged this machine in 4 or 5 years. Might be time
16:06<andythenorth>not sure that the python linking is relevant for FIRS, seems we don’t import the python graphviz module
16:06<andythenorth>what does ‘gvpr -V’ report?
16:08<oftcrash>hmm, that's 2.28.0
16:08<oftcrash>I'm going to redownload the one from the site
16:08<andythenorth>I have 2.38.0 although that may not be relevant
16:09<oftcrash>still going to update
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16:12<oftcrash>ugh, diaper (nappy?) duty. Back in a few
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16:30<oftcrash>I think I finally got it
16:30<oftcrash>2.28 didn't want to go away, but I finally got 2.36 installed and that seems to work
16:31<oftcrash>I got my great cats confused - installed for leopard instead of mountain lion.
16:35<oftcrash>yup, confirmed - it works! Thanks for walking me through it - I should have caught that
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18:01<_dp_>subtile coords for n-s zigzag road
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18:02<_dp_>s to n 18 straight + 7 diagonals, n to s 14 + 9, not counting repeated frames (adds +2 to both)
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18:23<_dp_>creatively duplicating frames may help though, adding 0, 2 to first pair and 4, 0 to second
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18:25<_dp_>duplicating without changing direction will probably look bad though
18:29<_dp_>guess there is no way to fix it without changing states
18:31<_dp_>on a bright side doesn't seem to need a savegame conversion if amount of frames is not reduced
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19:16<Samu>18+7 = 25
19:16<Samu>14+9 = 23
19:17<Samu>18+7+2+2 = 29
19:17<Samu>14+9+2+2 = 27
19:18<Samu>29/27 was the result i observed with naked eye
19:18<Samu>i bet the other direction is 28/28
19:21<Samu>18+7+2+2 = 29 is the result I consider "best"
19:21<Samu>if you're going to fix something, try to get 29
19:24<Samu>oops, nevermind
19:24<Samu>i'm sorry, got confused
19:25<Samu>I'm looking at these times:
19:27<Samu>erm, i was actually right, confused by my own confusion
19:27<Samu>try to get 29, indeed
19:28<_dp_>Samu, what's so good about 29?
19:28<Samu>travel time parity
19:28<Samu>with NE - SW and NW - SE
19:29<_dp_>Samu, it's one of your patched versions?
19:29<Samu>yes, but didnt touch the road vehicles
19:29<Samu>let me get the original
19:30<Samu>that is of 1.6.1
19:32<_dp_>Samu, curiously enough 29 turn is indeed of the same length as two straight tiles
19:33<_dp_>Samu, though it only proves how broken it is, definitely shouldn't be that way
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20:36<Samu>testing this ... formula: return minu(dx, dy) * 2 * (2 / 3) + dx + dy - minu(dx, dy) * 2;
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20:40<Samu>holy crap that one is even worse omg i really fail at this
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20:56<Samu>here i go, trying another: return ((minu(dx, dy) * 2 * 2) / 3) + Delta(2 * minu(dx, dy), max(dx, dy));
21:01<Samu>bad formula
21:19<Samu>testing return ((minu(dx, dy) * 2) / 3) + Delta(2 * minu(dx, dy), dx + dy);
21:27<Samu>testing return ((minu(dx, dy) * 4) / 3) + Delta(2 * minu(dx, dy), dx + dy);
21:27<Samu>ok i'm getting closer
21:28<goodger>why not preempt greenspun's tenth law
21:40<Samu>return ((minu(dx, dy) * 4) / 3) + dx + dy - 2 * minu(dx, dy);
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---Logclosed Sat Sep 10 00:00:08 2016