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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-09-10

---Logopened Sat Sep 10 00:00:08 2016
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03:24<andythenorth>o/
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06:23<Wolf01>o/
06:23<Wolf01>Pfff, missed the right time again
06:31<@Alberth>o/
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06:43<Samu>hi
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06:53<Samu>@calc dx + dy
06:53<@DorpsGek>Samu: Error: 'dx' is not a defined function.
06:55<Samu>@calc 100 + 500 - ((100 + 500) - (2 * 100) / 3)
06:55<@DorpsGek>Samu: 66.6666666667
06:56<Samu>@calc 100 + 500 - ((100 + 500) - ((2 * 100) / 3))
06:56<@DorpsGek>Samu: 66.6666666667
06:56<Samu>bah
06:57<Samu>@calc 600 - (600 - 200 / 3)
06:57<@DorpsGek>Samu: 66.6666666667
06:57<Samu>@calc 600 + 600 - (600 - 200 / 3)
06:57<@DorpsGek>Samu: 666.666666667
06:58<Samu>@calc 600 + (600 - 600 - 200 / 3)
06:58<@DorpsGek>Samu: 533.333333333
06:58<Samu>aha
07:00<_dp_>@calc 600 - 600 + 600 - 600 + 600 - 600 + 600 - 600 + 600 - 600 + 600 - 600 + 200 / 3
07:00<@DorpsGek>_dp_: 66.6666666667
07:00<_dp_>shocking :/
07:01<Samu>im terrible
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07:03<Samu>return Delta(dx + dy, 2 * minu(dx, dy) / 3);
07:04<Samu>@calc (100+500)-2*100/3
07:04<@DorpsGek>Samu: 533.333333333
07:04<Samu>that!
07:04<@Alberth>it misses a few '3' at the end
07:05<Samu>@calc (100+100)-2*100/3
07:05<@DorpsGek>Samu: 133.333333333
07:05<Samu>uh, nope
07:05<Samu>bah bad formula
07:06<Samu>wait a min
07:06<Samu>that's actually right
07:06<Samu>133 is right
07:06<Samu>duh
07:07<Samu>i think i got the profit formula i was looking for
07:07<andythenorth>cat is
07:08<Samu>actually, i'm not even touching the profit formula, but the distance that goes into the profit calculations
07:09<Samu>@calc (0+500)-2*0/3
07:09<@DorpsGek>Samu: 500
07:09<Samu>great
07:10<_dp_>Samu, your formula is min(dx, dy) / 3 + max(dx, dy) what kind of nonsense in this?
07:13<Samu>@calc 100 / 3 + 500
07:13<@DorpsGek>Samu: 533.333333333
07:14<Samu>@calc 0 + 500
07:14<@DorpsGek>Samu: 500
07:14<Samu>makes sense
07:14<@Alberth>:D
07:14<_dp_>actually, nvm, it same as mine 4 * min(dx, dy) / 3 + |dx-dy| )))
07:15<_dp_>though 2 * min(dx, dy) + 3 * |dx-dy| / 2 is much better one
07:18<Samu>@calc 4*100/3 + |100-500|
07:18<@DorpsGek>Samu: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
07:18<Samu>what is |dx-dy| ?
07:18<_dp_>@calc 4*100/3 + abs(100-500)
07:18<@DorpsGek>_dp_: 533.333333333
07:19<Samu>nice, that seems to be what we're looking for
07:20<_dp_>Samu, well, I've no idea what you're looking for
07:20<_dp_>Samu, mine is a distance in same metrics that vehicle movement uses
07:21<Samu>when traveling N<->S, a train takes 396 days to travel 2000 tiles
07:22<Samu>but 396 days travelling on NE<->SW the train only advanced 1333 tiles
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07:22*andythenorth should make some Road Hog
07:22<andythenorth>or NotRoadTypes
07:22<andythenorth>or something
07:23<andythenorth>anyone tried Road Hog?
07:23<@Alberth>make notroadhog?
07:23<Samu>@calc 2 * 1000 / 1333
07:23<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.50037509377
07:23<andythenorth>is that just not making it?
07:23<andythenorth>o_O
07:23<andythenorth>seems easy
07:23<@Alberth>:)
07:23*_dp_ thinking about random jump vehicle
07:24<@Alberth>done for the day, then :)
07:24<andythenorth>strictly Road Hog is NoteGRVTS
07:24<_dp_>sooner or later it will arrive to destination...
07:24<andythenorth>nothing wrong with eGRVTS, but we need more than one road vehicle grf :P
07:24<Samu>@calc 2 * 1000 / 3
07:24<@DorpsGek>Samu: 666.666666667
07:24<Samu>ah, better
07:24<@Alberth>so few RV grfs?
07:24<andythenorth>so few viable ones
07:25<@Alberth>ah
07:25<@Alberth>most only do pax?
07:25<Samu>@calc 1000/3 +1000
07:25<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1333.33333333
07:26<andythenorth>or not nice sprites
07:26<Samu>min(dx, dy) / 3 + max(dx, dy) is the best
07:26<andythenorth>or based on realism
07:26<Samu>will use it
07:26<andythenorth>eGRVTS never tried realism, which is why it works
07:27<_dp_>Samu, no it's not, it's reducing possible income of map
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07:33<Samu>that's the intention
07:33<@Alberth>let's just return the constant 1, always
07:34<Samu>if it is the right amount
07:34<Samu>i'm still checking if it fits my criteria
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think that follows the rules of a metric :p
07:36<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, (int)(x != y) does I think
07:37<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but that's not "constant 1"
07:37<_dp_>... where x and y are pairs...
07:37<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, almost ;)
07:38<Eddi|zuHause>well, "almost" is very important with these things :p
07:42<@Alberth>dx || dy ?
07:42<Samu>min(dx,dy) / 3 is still not right there
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07:43<_dp_>Alberth, yeah, discrete metric
07:43<Samu>(min(dx,dy) / 3) / 2 is still not right there
07:44<Samu>oops i mean i'll try (min(dx,dy) / 3 / 2
07:44<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: tram station behaviour…what’s the optimum length(s) for single-unit mail trams?
07:45<Wolf01>o/
07:45<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>optimal length for trams is 1 full tile (vehicle lengths)
07:45<andythenorth>I made all the freight trams 16/8
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>*(2 vehicle lengths)
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>yes, keep it that way
07:46<@Alberth>no messy multi-tram loading from one tile
07:46<andythenorth>mail trams aren’t that big
07:46<andythenorth>or maybe they should be
07:47*andythenorth looks at capacities
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's one of the places where gameplay > realism
07:48<andythenorth>do you need a tram carrying 200 bags of mail?
07:48<andythenorth>you / one / anyone
07:48<andythenorth>hmm
07:48<Eddi|zuHause>better be consistent than realistic here
07:49<@Alberth>as there is usually 1 tram with mail available, I take what exists :)
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>i always thought the capacity of rail wagons is too small for mail
07:49<andythenorth>trams are high density
07:49<andythenorth>you want small, get a truck :)
07:49<Eddi|zuHause>if you want to run a passenger train with only one mail wagon
07:50<andythenorth>hmm
07:50<andythenorth>should mailbags maintain parity with pax capacity?
07:50<Samu>oops, this one is worse, i must be missing something
07:50*andythenorth looking at Iron Horse
07:50<@Alberth>combined passenger/mail wagon was nice, but in the end, mail took too much room, and I swapped all but one combined wagon iirc
07:51<andythenorth>per generation: 40 pax, 30 mail; 55 pax, 45 mail; 75 pax, 60 mail
07:51<andythenorth>is Iron Horse current values
07:52<@Alberth>for trams, you cannot add wagons, so there, the combination makes more sense
07:52<@Alberth>maybe combined with larger pax only trams
07:53<andythenorth>can’t combine trams ;)
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>you can't really run combined trams
07:53<andythenorth>can’t assign them orders
07:53<Eddi|zuHause>because bus/truck stops
07:53*andythenorth tried it
07:53<@Alberth>I meant adding more trams, for pax only :)
07:53<andythenorth>oh, small and large editions?
07:53<andythenorth>like the buses?
07:54<andythenorth>small + fast, large + slow?
07:54<andythenorth>or so
07:54<@Alberth>hmm, where do these combined trams stop?
07:54<Eddi|zuHause>small+fast only if the game models inner city speed limits
07:55<@Alberth>too long ago that I played with pax/mail trams :p
07:55<andythenorth>yeah, speed differences don’t work for trams
07:55<andythenorth>I’ve levelled all the speeds per generation
07:55<@Alberth>makes sense, or you force to have separate tracks for separate types of trams
07:55<Samu>return 2 * min(dx, dy) / 3 + max(dx, dy);
07:58<Samu>hmm i'm back to my formula, takes less space
07:58<Samu>return Delta(dx + dy, minu(dx, dy) / 3);
07:58<andythenorth>hmm
08:00<andythenorth>16/8 box trams already exist, refittable to mail
08:00<@Alberth>for small towns, combined pax+mail is nice, imho
08:00*andythenorth wonders what purpose specific mail trams have if same size
08:01<andythenorth>Alberth: it would need a new station type ;)
08:01<@Alberth>right, clearly not thinking currently :p
08:01<andythenorth>I’ve been there
08:01<andythenorth>coded that
08:01<@Alberth>:)
08:01<andythenorth>discovered it for myself
08:02<@Alberth>that helps a lot, in remembering :)
08:02*andythenorth doesn’t like this pax tram sprites
08:02<andythenorth>must draw new onws
08:02<andythenorth>ones *
08:02<@Alberth>purpose is simple, they're for transporting mail
08:04<andythenorth>also I could tweak appearance
08:05<_dp_>hm, * Some curves were shorter than other curves.
08:05<_dp_> * Now they have the same length, but that means that trailing articulated parts will
08:05<_dp_>no they are not :p
08:07<Samu>darn, still not quite there, but im getting closer
08:09<Samu>i think im not yet accounting for the speed deficit correctly
08:09<Samu>erm speed bonus
08:15<_dp_>http://imgur.com/a/Wz18z
08:16<_dp_>surprisingly it's not really a bug
08:20<Samu>return Delta(dx + dy, minu(dx, dy) / 2);
08:20<Samu>instead of /3
08:24<_dp_>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=commit;f=src/saveload/afterload.cpp;h=7fcae50579f69e6d4fba8d4e9445ef5e93c1c711
08:24<_dp_>this commit is really confusing
08:27<_dp_>savegame conversion in particular, it looks like it was made for some completely different change
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08:29<Samu>I got it!
08:29<Samu>this is it! return Delta(dx + dy, minu(dx, dy) / 3);
08:30<Samu>oops /2
08:30<Samu>this is it! return Delta(dx + dy, minu(dx, dy) / 2);
08:31<Samu>now road vehicles will cry
08:31<Samu>but the other vehicle types shall profit the right way
08:33<Samu>return min(dx, dy) / 2 + max(dx, dy)
08:33<Samu>it's the same as this, right?
08:34<_dp_>Samu, yes, also same at ((3 * minu(dx, dy)) / 2) + Delta(dx, dy);
08:35<Samu>@calc 600-100/2
08:35<@DorpsGek>Samu: 550
08:36<Samu>@calc 3*100/2 + 500
08:36<@DorpsGek>Samu: 650
08:36<Samu>@calc 3*100/2 + 400
08:36<@DorpsGek>Samu: 550
08:36<Samu>right
08:38<Samu>min(dx, dy) / 2 + max(dx, dy) - it can't be simplified more than this
08:39<_dp_>Samu, depends on what you consider to be simple
08:39<Samu>number of operations i think
08:39<_dp_>Samu, then ofc it can
08:40<_dp_>dx < dy ? dx / 2 + dy ? dy / 2 + dx
08:40<_dp_>*:
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08:40<Wolf01>https://youtu.be/DYMEl-1q0Qs new Volvo's autonomous truck
08:42<frosch123>_dp_: did you notice how off-center the (new) horizontal pipes in factorio are :)
08:43<_dp_>frosch123, you mean that screenshot V posted?
08:43<frosch123>http://eu3.factorio.com/assets/img/blog/fff-155-pipes-and-pump.gif <- that one
08:45<_dp_>frosch123, well, not rly understand why, visuals is one thing logic is another
08:45<Samu>thx _dp_
08:45<_dp_>somehow I doubt that offset has any effect on how they work
08:46<Wolf01>Oh, new pups. Looks awesome, good guy V :D
08:48<Eddi|zuHause>ieh.... pups...
08:48<Wolf01>I have some problems typing these days
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>("pups" is the german word for "fart")
08:49<Samu>it's seems to be working, i am comparing what's in the company bank account about ~7 years later, against the profit of the speed penalty patch
08:49<Wolf01>:D
08:50<Samu>and it's very much the same, sometimes it's more, sometimes it's less, but very much in the same line
08:50<Samu>lel repetition
08:52<Wolf01>Is OTTD game state deterministic? Given the same initial state you can have the same output every time?
08:52<frosch123>sometimes it isn't, that's then called "desync"
08:54<@Alberth>only when the user also behaves deterministic :p
08:55<Wolf01>I'm trying to figure out, to help some guy here, if is better to let the game running for 50 years and the take a mean of the results or just try to make a good representation of the game mechanics for an exact problem and test it in a single run (unit test)
08:57<_dp_>Wolf01, I'd say single run is better. On long time spans different factors can accumulate
08:58<_dp_>Wolf01, like station ratings changing industry production
08:58<Wolf01>Yes, I intended that
08:59<@Alberth>I think it depends on how close you want to study the game mechanic
09:00<@Alberth>ie your two solutions test different things
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: if your "initial state" includes the random seed, all newgrfs and other settings, then yes, it *should* be deterministic
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>... and all user interactions
09:01<Flygon_>You know you're too focused on old computers when you read "horizontal pipes", and think of the Copper Bars effect.
09:01-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
09:01<Eddi|zuHause>i've never heard of the copper bars effect
09:02<Wolf01>Ok, so no really random stuff, random = desync
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>yes, basically that's the only reason why multiplayer works
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>without massive bandwidth
09:04-!-Sacro_ is now known as Sacro
09:04<Flygon>https://megabitesblog.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/3.gif tl;dr - Amiga chip made timing the effect easy (Copper chip), but the basic effect is 'change palette entry each scanline to create gradiented bars'. Anyway, I'mma butt back out.
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>oh one of those low-level hack things
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09:06*andythenorth reworking trams http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8084/pax_trams_such.png
09:06<andythenorth>supermop_: pax tram drawings? o_O ^
09:07<andythenorth>Newbold, North Beach and Fairlop all need replaced wholesale
09:07*andythenorth lacks inspiration
09:07<Samu>http://imgur.com/a/v9Koz - train and aircraft started in Jan 1995, 9 years later compare bank balance
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09:07<andythenorth>Ladycross and Twinhills need improved
09:07<Samu>left openttd - distance penalty
09:07<Samu>middle openttd - speed penalty
09:08<Samu>right openttd - original 1.6.1
09:08<andythenorth>:o how is Road Hog 3 years old
09:09<Wolf01>Did it already learn to talk?
09:10<andythenorth>maybe
09:11<andythenorth>it learnt to generate cargo sprites
09:12<andythenorth>probably the most walking-talking feature
09:13<_dp_>Samu, are you comparing distance formula with your speed patch?
09:17<Samu>yes
09:18<_dp_>Samu, ah, no wonder it makes no sense then. I thought 3/2 diagonal was somehow correct one in vanilla
09:19<Samu>both solutions have problems
09:19<Samu>speed penalty looks ugly
09:20<Samu>profit penalty ruins road vehicles
09:20<Samu>erm distance* penalty
09:22<_dp_>who cares about rvs, they are screwed anyway :p
09:23<_dp_>some of what adf88 said is more concerning though, diagonals are indeed harder to build
09:25<_dp_>mb it's good though, if they are like half-functional why should they be more profitable
09:27<andythenorth>RVs are the most boss transport type :P
09:33<_dp_>well, all it means for rvs is that L-shaped roads will be worse than straight ones
09:33<_dp_>whics is perfectly logical for anyone who doesn't live on Manhattan
09:34<andythenorth>Wolf01: seen this? o_O http://www.technicbricks.com/2016/07/4x4-a25f-articulated-hauler-is-reality.html
09:34<andythenorth>I thought it was going to be bad, but I like the video :)
09:35<Wolf01>Yup, we had some of them running around at exhibits
09:35<Wolf01>BTW, I don't like much how lego is doing even more licensed sets
09:36<Wolf01>One at year could be, not 4 at the same time
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09:44<andythenorth>bbl
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10:28<Samu>i gotta test road vehicle, too see the impact it has
10:38<Samu>hmm the distance penalty can't be applied to road vehicle, as it was already accounted for in travel time
10:40<Samu>unless...
10:40<Samu>road vehicles travel even less frames on each curve
10:42<Samu>another solution, though it would look kind of retarded, would be to speed up road vehicles in relation to trains, aircraft and ships
10:42<@Alberth>rename to road aircraft :)
10:43<Samu>100 km/h on a road vehicle would look faster than 100 km/h on a train
10:44<@Alberth>well, scales are non-consistent already, what's the harm? :p
10:46<Flygon>Samu: That's actually a serious problem with irl level crossing safety
10:46<Flygon>IRL, a train really does look slower than a car at the same speed
10:46<Flygon>This's a problem, when you consider LX's (at least, in VIC) have trains going up to 160km/h
10:46<Flygon>In the UK? 200...
10:46<Flygon>@_____@
10:52<Samu>gonna try road vehicle speed up, lol
10:56<Samu> inline uint GetAdvanceSpeed(uint speed) { return (this->type == VEH_ROAD) ? speed : speed * 3 / 4; }
10:56<Samu>let's seee
11:00<Samu>hmm nop, needs to be even faster
11:00<Samu>@calc (3/4)*(1.5)
11:00<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.125
11:01<Samu>@calc (3/4)*(3/2)
11:01<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.125
11:01<Samu>so speed * 9 / 8 ?
11:01<Samu>@calc 9 / 8
11:01<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.125
11:01<Samu>okay then
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11:08<Samu>something's fishy
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11:08<Samu>can't really adjust road vehicle
11:09<Samu>distance penalty is only adjusted for diagonal distance
11:09<Samu>if the road vehicle now goes faster on a X axis, it would be gaining more than it should
11:10<Samu>t.t
11:14<Samu>must think
11:14<Samu>hi Wormnest what's up
11:17<Samu>need to look at transfers
11:18<Samu>transfers would come up with a "virtual" tile coordinates for the cargo origin
11:19<Samu>i dunno, need to think
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11:27<Wormnest>hi Samu ntm what´s going on
11:28<Samu>ntm?
11:31<Samu>Wormnest: i've been testing a few patches of mine to try to improve ship AIs
11:31<Samu>but there's just some stuff that it's not possible or fair from the point of a human player
11:32<Samu>question: are AIs able to build aqueducts or locks? they have the means to build suck thing?
11:32<Samu>such*
11:33<Wormnest>I can´t remember haven´t looked at AI´s in a while. You should be able to find it in the API if its possible
11:34<Samu>API, ah
11:34<Samu>where is it lol
11:34<Samu>let me find
11:34<Samu>https://noai.openttd.org/api/ ah, this?
11:37<Samu>https://noai.openttd.org/api/1.6.1/classAIBridge.html - nothing about aqueducts
11:37<Samu>maybe tunnelbridge?
11:38<Samu>there is tunnel
11:38<Samu>so, i guess AIs can't build aqueducts
11:40<Samu>can build lock, docks, canals, buoys, right? https://noai.openttd.org/api/1.6.1/classAIMarine.html
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11:42<@Alberth>would be weird if it cannot build aqueducts, imho
11:43<@Alberth>on the other hand, anything is possible :p
11:43<Samu>https://noai.openttd.org/api/1.6.1/classAIBridge.html#59e535dbd0cd8cc6566d6223b879f018 - ah it can, i think
11:44<@Alberth>haha, weird place for it :)
11:49<Samu>EpicTrans apparently works fine with inflation turned on!
11:49<Samu>but if it's off, it bankrupts
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11:49<Samu>it asks for money at the start, usually the maximum loan it can set
11:50<Samu>then it says there forever
11:50<Samu>max loan increases over time, but since EpicTrans doesn't loan anymore, it won't trigger bankrupt warnings, and doesn't bankrupt
11:50<Samu>funny...
11:51<Samu>typo it stays* there forever
12:00<Samu>how do i get to the vehicle type that is currently transporting this cargo type that is being unloaded?
12:00<Samu>lel
12:02<Samu>I'm trying to change this line
12:02<Samu>Money profit = GetTransportedGoodsIncome(accepted, DistanceManhattanProfit(source_tile, st->xy), days_in_transit, cargo_type);
12:03<Samu>Money profit = GetTransportedGoodsIncome(accepted, "is not a road vehicle" ? DistanceManhattanProfit(source_tile, st->xy) : DistanceManhattan(source_tile, st->xy), days_in_transit, cargo_type);
12:03<Samu>how do i get the road vehicle?
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12:39<_dp_>I finally got what's happening in that commit. It's fine except that it doesn't do what it claims to xD
12:40<_dp_>Removing meaningless condition but not making curves the same
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12:58<@Alberth>:)
12:59<andythenorth>child #1 wants road-rail vehicles :P
12:59<andythenorth>do we have mixins? o_O
12:59<@Alberth>isn't it trams?
12:59<@Alberth>perhaps with bigger wheels :)
12:59<andythenorth>possibly :)
13:01<@Alberth>or a big truck transporting an engine :p
13:02*andythenorth needs 6 different mail trams
13:02<andythenorth>https://www.flickr.com/photos/jacksnell707/5060062507/
13:02<andythenorth>is one
13:03<@Alberth>like the colours :)
13:05<andythenorth>here’s another type, shorter http://imagestorage.nerail.org/photos/2010/02/03/201002031234389121.jpg
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13:09<@Alberth>older too, by the looks of it :)
13:10<@Alberth>would it be a post office too?
13:11<andythenorth>irl
13:11<andythenorth>not so much in ottd
13:12<@Alberth>yeah, I could see that working irl
13:13<andythenorth>fortunately our mail does not have destinations
13:14<@Alberth>it can have :)
13:15<@Alberth>but not much better than "other city" :)
13:15<@Alberth>simutrans does that with pax iirc, they walk from the closest station to their home
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13:19*andythenorth considers playing ottd
13:19<andythenorth>any new GS? o_O
13:25<sim-al2>>Playing OTTD
13:25<sim-al2>THE HORROR
13:25<@Alberth>new maglev tracks?
13:28<supermop>yo andy
13:29<supermop>all mail trams same length?
13:30<supermop>i got a strongbox running around in 1976 here
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13:31<andythenorth>if I follow eddi’s recommendation, all mail trams will be 16/8
13:31<andythenorth>so 4 x 4/8, or 2 x 8/8
13:32<andythenorth>or 4/8 engine and 2 x 6/8 wagons
13:32<andythenorth>I should make all pax trams 16/8 as well
13:32<@Alberth>hmm, I guess there should be some for wrapping file reading from tar files in openttd?
13:34<supermop>no single car/single truck trams?
13:35<supermop>the melb ones ive seen were more like 4 wheel rigid body i recall
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13:37<andythenorth>supermop: problem is getting them to 16/8 length
13:37<supermop>for blocking out a tram stop?
13:38<andythenorth>yeah
13:38<andythenorth>means 4 of them at 4/8
13:39<supermop>going to look more like little trains than trains
13:39<supermop>trams
13:39<andythenorth>or 1 at 6/8 or so, and 2 5/8 wagons
13:42<andythenorth>he http://www.bahnaktuell.net/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=8346&g2_serialNumber=2
13:44<sim-al2>Hmmm that's interesting
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13:52<andythenorth>supermop: o_O https://www.transportfever.net/index.php/Attachment/17898-2014-11-12-00003-jpg/
13:54<Samu>rail of type road
13:54<Samu>move all road code to rail
13:54<Samu>keks
13:55<Samu>and then make diagonal roads
13:55<andythenorth>diagonal roads don’t work
13:56<Samu>diagonal "rail of type road"
13:56*andythenorth should add the supplies tram http://www.villamosok.hu/nza/7052mosz.jpg
14:05<Samu>there is a DistanceMaxPlusManhattan function, it's a bit similar to what I came up with
14:05<Samu>return dx > dy ? 2 * dx + dy : 2 * dy + dx; - DistanceMaxPlusManhattan
14:05<Samu>return dx < dy ? dx / 2 + dy : dx + dy / 2; - what i came up with
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14:08<Samu>@calc 2*500 + 100
14:08<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1100
14:09<Samu>@calc 100/2 + 500
14:09<@DorpsGek>Samu: 550
14:09<Samu>eh, i see a correlation
14:11<Samu>return dx > dy ? dy / 2 + dx : dx / 2 + dy;
14:13<Samu>dayum, my function is equal to DistanceMaxPlusManhattan / 2
14:13<Samu>the game already had the answer
14:13<Samu>grr
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14:16<supermop>huge transformers by tram
14:16<supermop>how to they lift it off the wagon with the trolley wire overhead?
14:18<Samu>bah, the answer was right there, right in front of my eyes
14:18<Samu>damn, :(
14:19<Samu>the only problem, a big one actually, is road vehicles
14:20<Samu>can't believe i wasted so much time fine tuning the distance to get a suitable formula, only to find it right there already
14:24<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pvs9p04um - wow, look at the size of it
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14:42<Samu>the topic had a lot of formulas and math involved
14:42<Samu>but apparently it was so simple ... strange
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14:46<@Alberth>people that believe you can't insert an assignment to make it more readable :(
14:47<@Alberth>math works a lot better if you first specify the problem, and the desired properties of the solution :)
14:50<Samu>adf88 posted a real problem about track costs
14:52<Samu>"the death of diagonal rails"
14:52<Samu>keks
14:52<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: remind me - the 16/8 trams is optimum to prevent station blocking?
14:52<andythenorth>a stop will always be fully utilised?
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: if 2 trams are following each other, they better distribute towards multiple loading bays at "end" stops
14:53<andythenorth>yup ok
14:53<andythenorth>means I need to rework the pax trams
14:53<Eddi|zuHause>can probably be slightly shorter or slightly longer
14:54<Samu>i see the formulas used in the forum did not account for the speed boost advantage that vehicles get on diagonals
14:54<andythenorth>I tested longer earlier in the year
14:54<andythenorth>18/8 seemed to be optimum for non-blocking in the station layouts I tested
14:55<andythenorth>but I didn’t test shorter and I cba now
14:55<andythenorth>:)
14:56<andythenorth>(didn’t test shorter than 16/8)
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15:05<@planetmaker>andythenorth, yes, devzone can mirror any git repo. But none of the build scripts with jenkins have been properly taught git
15:05<supermop>andythenorth: any shorter than 16 and the following tram will try to squeeze into the last sliver of tram stop
15:06<@planetmaker>devzone can not only mirror it, it can host it natively, of course
15:06<Samu>1,41 - i've seen this value before
15:06<Samu>1,4142 etc
15:09<Samu>@calc sqrt(2)
15:09<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1.41421356237
15:09<Samu>k
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15:45<andythenorth>planetmaker: thanks :)
15:45*andythenorth wonders if there’s a mercurial equivalent of github
15:45<andythenorth>I didn’t find one
15:45<andythenorth>bitbucket is closest, but the free / open source plan is limited to 5 users
15:46<_dp_>andythenorth, doesn't github support mercurial too?
15:46<andythenorth>only for import afaict
15:46*andythenorth checks that
15:48<andythenorth>there are hg interfaces to gihub, but not native hg support afaict
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16:08<@planetmaker>andythenorth, you're dis-satisfied with devzone?
16:08<@planetmaker>and yes, there's no real equivalent to gibhub for anything else than git
16:09<andythenorth>I like devzone and I like redmine
16:09<andythenorth>but for open source collaboration they are limited, w.r.t specifically to ease of forking + sharing patches, branches etc
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16:09<@planetmaker>yeah, that's true
16:10<@planetmaker>wrt forking, that's a feature which is supported by kallithea actually
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16:10<@planetmaker>it's just that we do not advertize it as we don't have any unified sign-on. And it would yet be another service which requires users
16:11<andythenorth>for NotRoadTypes I imported ottd repo to github, then Wolf01 forked that, and then I can merge his pull requests back to my repo
16:11<andythenorth>it’s not about git vs. hg though in this case
16:11<andythenorth>just low-friction
16:11<@planetmaker>sure
16:11<@planetmaker>I'm just curious :)
16:12<andythenorth>I think it’s quite hard to contribute casually to most of openttd or newgrf
16:12<andythenorth>sharing patches in forum seems steam-age tbh :)
16:13<@planetmaker>I totally agree, yes
16:13<frosch123>i thought the problem is that noone maintains the old projects :)
16:13<frosch123>like noone working on opengfx and zbase
16:14<@planetmaker>that is of course another problem :)
16:14<@planetmaker>But that, of course, are related problems. If the contribution barrier is high, there likelyhood of someone tinkering with it an contributing is lower
16:14<@planetmaker>s/there/the/
16:14<frosch123>andythenorth: btw. openttd is mirrored to github officially, you could just have forked it there
16:15<@planetmaker>:D
16:15<andythenorth>ha
16:15<andythenorth>I assumed it wasn’t
16:15<andythenorth>I use git.openttd.org for my check
16:15<andythenorth>‘assumptions’ :P
16:15<andythenorth>checkout *
16:15<frosch123>https://github.com/openttd
16:16<andythenorth>27 forks
16:22<frosch123>spoons are better for coffee
16:22<andythenorth>spork
16:32<@planetmaker>hm, openttd docker container there on github
16:33<andythenorth>ha
16:34<andythenorth>4 of them
16:34<andythenorth>https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=openttd+docker
16:34<andythenorth>hmm
16:34<Wolf01>Nice
16:34<@planetmaker>he
16:35<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: is it a viable tactic to use an invisble vehicle to extend tram lengths? o_O 16/8 is more visually restrictive than I want
16:35<@planetmaker>well... in essence the docker concept windows-izes linux: you 'buy' the whole thing without proper update function :D
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: no clue
16:37<andythenorth>seems a bit…janky
16:38<andythenorth>prone to odd results
16:39<Wolf01>"Why update if it works?"
16:42<Samu>3/2 or sqrt(2)
16:52<_dp_>(1 + sqrt(5))/2
16:52<_dp_>at least it will be pretty ^^
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16:58<SpComb>frosch123: webster.openttdcoop.org is slow to show the 2016-09-05 logs :(
16:59<SpComb>frosch123: can I remap http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/X -> https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd&date=X#X
16:59<SpComb>frosch123: i.e. do unix UTC timestamps work for both of those fields?
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17:02<frosch123>yeah, i have no idea what is wrong with 2016-09-05
17:02<frosch123>the log is not particulary big
17:02<frosch123>and i even tried it with a smaller one
17:02<frosch123>it appears to be related to only the "date" :p
17:03<frosch123>the only error message i get is that it aborts some php template engine after a 30 second timeout
17:03<frosch123>i blamed php :p
17:05<frosch123>SpComb: i did not install the webviewer, but the timestamps are utc, and trying some of those links seems to work
17:06<SpComb>yeah, looks like it
17:06<frosch123>the log is also broken for 2016-08-06
17:06<frosch123>so maybe when months and date add up to 14 :p
17:07<frosch123>july is fine though :p
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17:09<frosch123># \\ ] }
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17:22<SpComb>frosch123: added a redirect for openttd links
17:23<Wolf01><frosch123> so maybe when months and date add up to 14 :p <- lolled too much
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17:32<Eddi|zuHause>some bugs have the most absurd reasons :p
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>i've just got the most absurd spam mail i've ever seen
17:41<Eddi|zuHause>i can't even describe it with words
17:41<Wolf01>Screen?
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>"Mparative inferiority of the interior tracts with which they have ready communication. Below Chesapeake Bay the coast system of great river-estuaries gives way to the Sea-Island system, in which the main-land is flanked by a series of bars or sandbanks, separated from it b
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>---
17:42<Eddi|zuHause>Questa e-mail è stata controllata per individuare virus con Avast antivirus."
17:43<Wolf01>Lol, even passed from Italy
17:43<frosch123>the "business spam" that is send to openttd is way more interesting that the normal spam i get to my private adresses
17:44<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, it came from a telecomitalia server
17:44<Wolf01>I think there's an italian zombie out there
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>it's addressed to a "Kristi Clinkscales"
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>whatever that is
17:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i don't usually get spam mail
17:46<Eddi|zuHause>but every now and then one gets through the cracks
17:47<frosch123>well, private spam is like "buy this shit"
17:48<frosch123>business spam is like "hey we are an awesome payment processor. we offer you a trial period, just send use a sample of your customer credit card numbers and what to process"
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>the last spam is from about 2 months ago, saying i should get a job in "tax optimization"
17:48<Eddi|zuHause>something about processing bitcoins and getting 20%
17:50<+glx>on openttd I got some "notice to appear" with a .js attached
17:50-!-keoz [~keikoz@pha75-1-81-57-54-15.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #openttd
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>about 4 months ago i got a "please respond to the cancellation of your contract" with a .zip attached
17:50<+glx>and an offer for wooden boxes from china
17:50<Eddi|zuHause>so seems i get one every 2 months
17:51<goodger>every few months I get some sort of offer for the guy who wrote chrome
17:51<goodger>the last two years running I've been invited to give a lecture at the indian institute of technology at madras, in chennai
17:51<+glx>oh it wasn't a .js, but a .zip with .js inside
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>you opened the zip? good lord...
17:52<goodger>not sure how much confidence we should have in said institution if they can't distinguish a formerly world-leading software engineer from a randomer from cornwall
17:52<+glx>well .txt.js or something
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, obviously...
17:52<+glx>7zip doesn't run anything from inside the zip
17:53<+glx>so it was safe :)
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>glx: it could be a 42.zip or something :p
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>zip /dev/zero
17:53<+glx>I even opened the script in an editor to check what it looked like
17:54<+glx>full of obfuscation, not really human readable
17:56<frosch123>i liked the notice that "a parcel could not be delivered" :)
17:57<frosch123>i would also not know how to ship to openttd
17:57<+glx>parcel delivery spam is more usual on phone here
17:57<Samu>everyone is talking about sqrt(2) in the topic about profit
17:58<Samu>I used 1.5
17:58<+glx>but I fail to understand how people can call back on those
17:58<Samu>got to make a test about using sqrt(2)
17:59<Samu>maybe I am wrong (as always)
18:00<+glx>never use float math in openttd
18:00<Samu>and 1.5 is the wrong value to use
18:00<Samu>and the correct value is sqrt(2) after all, they're quite close
18:00<Samu>but then how can i test ?
18:01<Wolf01>I usually get spam about checking my home phone bill
18:01<Samu>if i can't use float math?
18:01<+glx>you can test locally, but not in the final version
18:02<+glx>float math is highly platform dependant
18:02<Samu>ah, oki, i will test then
18:10<Samu>will use the nocab aircraft savegame for testing
18:12<Samu>return dx < dy ? dx * IntSqrt(2) + dy : dx + dy * IntSqrt(2);
18:12<Wolf01>IntSqrt?
18:13<Samu>it's in the topic
18:13<Samu>and it's in openttd
18:13<Samu>:p
18:14<Samu>no idea how it works though
18:14<Samu>let me check
18:14<+glx>fake float math :)
18:14<Samu>Radicand what is a radicant?
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18:16<Samu>ah, think im doing it wrong
18:16<Samu>IntSqrt(dx)
18:17<Samu>return dx < dy ? IntSqrt(2) + dy : dx + dy * IntSqrt(2);
18:17<Samu>return dx < dy ? IntSqrt(dx) + dy : dx + IntSqrt(dy);
18:18<Samu>think it's like this
18:18<Samu>nop, it's not, omg damn it
18:20<Samu>return dx < dy ? dx / IntSqrt(dx) + dy : dx + dy / IntSqrt(dy);
18:20<Samu>i'm a terrible math dude
18:23<Samu>return dx < dy ? dx / IntSqrt(2) + dy : dx + dy / IntSqrt(2);
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18:24<Wolf01>Instead of asking about 8192 different formulae, reason a bit on what you need to do
18:25<Samu>i want a dx / 1.4142etc... aka square root of 2
18:25<Samu>or dy
18:25<Samu>whichever is lower
18:25<Samu>dx or dy
18:26<Wolf01>So, dx / IntSqrt(2)
18:28<Samu>yes, but i am wondering what result am i gonna get
18:28<Samu>i am suspicious of that intsqrt functionality
18:29<+glx>I guess intsqrt does sqrt in a portable way :)
18:31<Samu> IntSqrt returned 1 unsigned int
18:31<Samu>ahaha are you kidding me
18:32<Eddi|zuHause>i guess intsqrt(2) will be 1, though :p
18:33<Wolf01>Or maybe an integer number between 1 and 2
18:33<Wolf01>With [1;2[
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18:36<+glx>* @return Rounded integer square root.
18:38<Samu>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_root_of_2
18:44<Samu>i can't do this square root thing
18:45<Wolf01>'night
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18:46<Samu>how big is uint?
18:46<Samu>maximum value that uint works with?
18:47<_dp_>MAX_UINT
18:47<Samu>uh okay
18:48<Samu>@calc 4096 * 470832
18:48<@DorpsGek>Samu: 1928527872
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18:48<Samu>is that within uint range?
18:49<+glx>probably not
18:49<_dp_>oh, sorry, UINT_MAX and it's platform dependant
18:50<_dp_>but at least 65535 iirc
18:52<Samu>const uint BIGNUMBER = UINT_MAX; - let's see
18:52<Samu> BIGNUMBER 4294967295 const unsigned int
18:53<Samu>ok, now i know
18:53<+glx>that's 32bit max
18:54<_dp_>windows has 32 bit ints
18:54<+glx>yes and long long for 64 bits
18:58<Samu>return dx < dy ? dx * 470832 / 665857 + dy : dx + dy * 470832 / 665857; looks so ugly
19:06<Samu>this can't be right, grrr
19:07<_dp_>ofc, you may as well try pi/2
19:09<_dp_>oh, e / 2 is probably even better))
19:16<Samu>return dx < dy ? dx - dx * 470832 / 665857 + dy : dx + dy - dy * 470832 / 665857;
19:17<Samu>i give up
19:18<Samu>last try return dx < dy ? dx - (dx * 470832) / 665857 + dy : dx + dy - (dy * 470832) / 665857;
19:18<Samu>if i dont get the aircraft profiting around 6000, i give up
19:19<Samu>alright, i give up
19:20<_dp_>Samu, it's the same formula
19:20<_dp_>you just added redundant parentheses
19:21<Samu>i dont understand what went wrong
19:21<Samu>if dx = 100
19:21<_dp_>Samu, what do you even want to achieve, start there
19:22<Samu>i tried these
19:22<Samu>100 /2
19:22<Samu>100 / 3
19:22<Samu>100 / 2 is what seemed best
19:22<Samu>it gets an approximate income
19:22<Samu>to that of my speed penalty patch
19:22-!-Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@cybertinus.customer.cloud.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:22<Samu>over the years
19:23<Samu>but i was suspicious about something, when everyone was using 1.4142
19:23<Samu>in the forum
19:23<Samu>so i wanted to try sqrt(2), but i don't know how to do it
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19:25<_dp_>Samu, and why are you using your other patch as a reference?
19:25<Samu>because it could nearly achieve time travel parity on diagonals
19:25<Samu>in relation to axis
19:26<Samu>i want to try an alternative to the speed penalty, and went with a distance penalty calculation
19:27<Samu>i also found out that for 2000 tiles, a train on diagonal needs only 396 days, but a train on axis would need 594 days
19:27<Samu>and that the axis train was only doing 1333 tiles in 396 days
19:28<Samu>now i want to calculate this "optimal" distance between the 2 stations
19:28<Samu>for the profit formula
19:30<Samu>i want 2000 tiles to be like 1333 tiles
19:30<Samu>but vehicles also move 1.5x faster on diagonals
19:30<_dp_>Samu, then compare profits of those two tranes, not with some arcane patch
19:33<Samu>i can't compare the profits like that
19:34<Samu>while the aircraft was doing about 9200 per trip on 1.6.1, on the spped penalty it was still doing about 9080 per trip, but this takes longer
19:36<Samu>that dinstance penalty x/2 or y/2 seems to do what i'm looking for, but that's at a first glance
19:36<Samu>9 years of seeing the slow aircraft vs fast aircraft, the bank balance of both 1.6.1 and distance penalty was nearly close
19:37<Samu>while one was profiting about 6xxx, the other was profiting 9080, and yet, after 9 years, the bank balance was not much different
19:37<Samu>i still am suspicious that i am not quite there, that / 2 is not yet the target
19:39<Samu>over 15 years, there was a difference, albeit minimal, it was becoming apparent. Seems that the penalty needs to be slightly adjusted, but not really sure what to do
19:43<Samu>screw it
19:43<Samu>it would still be a problem for road vehicles either way
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20:00<Samu>i tried admiralai, which is the aircraft winner with HUGE profits
20:00<Samu>forced dummyai into his company, let the game run for 2 years
20:01<Samu>I am honestly impressed
20:04<Samu>darn imgur doesn't accept copy paste anymore
20:05<goodger>Samu: try spectacle
20:06<Samu>what's the site?
20:07<goodger>uhhhh.... https://github.com/KDE/spectacle
20:08<Samu>http://imgur.com/a/4mxOG
20:09<Samu>i dont get spectacle, i need to install?
20:09<goodger>mr sniffle looks like a badass
20:09<goodger>oh windows
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20:10<Samu>imgur used to allow pasting images directly from the clipboard, but seems bugged since the big update for windows 10
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20:10<Samu>now i got to save the image on paint, browse upload it
20:11<Samu>or give a gigantic link from onedrive
20:11<_dp_>Samu, I just tested it and my formula is correct, if it's not for you then fix your tests :p
20:11<Samu>where is your patch, must try it
20:12<_dp_>Samu, return 2 * minu(dx, dy) + 3 * Delta(dx, dy) / 2;
20:12<_dp_>you know where to put it)
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20:13<Samu>ok let me see that one
20:14<Samu>ugh, must copy past getmanhatandistance for that one
20:14<Samu>or distancemanhatan, whatever... brb
20:15<Samu>uint DistanceManhattan_dp_(TileIndex t0, TileIndex t1) :)
20:17<Samu>building
20:19<Samu>ok running admiralai savegame for 2 years
20:20<Samu>uh, profits are increasing
20:20<Samu>let me confirm i didn't fail somewhere
20:21<Samu>does this look alright? https://paste.openttdcoop.org/phnkvt9ud
20:22<_dp_>yep
20:22<Samu>ah, i see a problem, brb editign
20:24<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/diff/phnkvt9ud/pslvkynrl?/diff/phnkvt9ud/pslvkynrl - fixed, keks
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20:25<_dp_>you changed nothing
20:26<ST2>DistanceManhattan gets equal to DistanceSquare
20:26<ST2>useless to have 2 uint's there
20:27<ST2>oh wait: what's the original?
20:27<ST2>xD
20:28<Samu>sec
20:28<_dp_>ST2, good morning :p
20:29<ST2>hey _dp_ :)
20:29<Samu>http://imgur.com/a/DpOIO - profit went up
20:29<ST2>it's weird... I'll call you dP ;)
20:30<_dp_>ST2, yeah, some bastard aleready took my nickname here :(
20:31<_dp_>Samu, yeah, it increases profits for straight lines making them equal to diagonals
20:31<Samu>ah, you do the reverse of what i do
20:31<_dp_>Samu, so overall icome is expected to rise unless they are all perfectly diagonal
20:31<Samu>i reduce profits for diagonals
20:32<ST2>well, I'll leave you both on that discussion ^^
20:32<ST2>good luck on both attempts :)
20:33<Samu>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pvs9p04um - my patch
20:33<ST2>I place my bets on dP :P
20:33<_dp_>Samu, reducing is bad, it will screw up 5 years of quest history on your servers if it ever makes to trunk
20:34<_dp_>I place mine on nothing changing xD
20:34<ST2>that's a safe bet... for sure ^^
20:34<Samu>quest history? what's that?
20:34<ST2>but if anything changed... bets done :P
20:34<_dp_>Samu, https://citymania.org/quests-last
20:35<_dp_>Samu, and all highscores too https://citymania.org/best-scores
20:35<Samu>oh... that kind of stuff
20:36<ST2>basically it's something recording what servers gives - when achieving it... it's done :)
20:37<ST2>dP (Citymania) have it changed on server side - so it has some measurements that a vanilla server can't give
20:37<_dp_>Some quests will become much harder if not impossible, like this one https://citymania.org/quest/40
20:38<_dp_>ST2, well, most of them is just another fancy way to require a lot of money :)
20:39<ST2>I know ^^
20:39<ST2>most of the issues we have is because admin port only gives info quarterly
20:40<ST2>someone already suggested change that to monthly, some time ago
20:40<ST2>was crushed by devs, sadly
20:41<_dp_>ST2, well, it's your decision not to patch server :p
20:41<ST2>true ^^
20:42<Samu>a nerf to aircraft is always welcome, except that excessive infrastructure maintenance thing
20:43<Samu>it works bad on small maps
20:43<ST2>infrastructure maintenance is based now on number of tiles on stations (I think)
20:44<ST2>when you build an airport, it's like a 7x7 rail station
20:44<ST2>both sides
20:44<_dp_>Samu, we have big aircrafts removed, and small ones are ok
20:44<Samu>oh, really? nice, i got to try enabling it
20:44<ST2>with the point that you dnt need tracks between
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21:15<Samu>I'm bored - http://imgur.com/a/8JAn2
21:16<Samu>enabled infrastructure maintenance and compared
21:19<Samu>it's funny what the income graphs , delivered cargo show on the different versions
21:19<Samu>speed penalty shows less cargo delivered
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21:20<Samu>distance boost, that patch of _dp_, shows income increased, but profit decreased
21:21<sim-al2>>1279 airports
21:22<sim-al2>how
21:22<sim-al2>Oh, AdmiralAI
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21:27<Samu>i'm off to bed
21:27<Samu>out of these 3 patches
21:28<Samu>the only I consider fair is that of speed penalty, but it looks really awkward with the sudden vehicle speed decreases/increases when changing direction
21:28<Samu>wow im really sleepy
21:29<Samu>but it's fair because it leaves road vehicles unaffected
21:29<Samu>and the others don't
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 11 00:00:09 2016