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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-09-17

---Logopened Sat Sep 17 00:00:20 2016
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04:00<Wolf01>Damn PC... tried to fuck up ram again :(
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04:27<@Alberth>it just loooves eating ram :)
04:34<Wolf01>It can eat what it wants, but not my time and money
04:37<Wolf01>I can't understand why the ram works at 2166MHz now, it should work at 2666 with default settings
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06:09<Samu>I found a way to crash 1.6.1
06:10<Samu>it needs OpenGFX+ Landscape 1.1.2 and a company bankrupting
06:13<Samu>i see some servers using this grf
06:13<Samu>they could be crashed t.t
06:13<Samu>who's the crash expert?
06:15<Samu>autoclean empty companies makes it even faster
06:22<Wolf01>The crash expert!!!!!
06:25<Wolf01>Alt+0 is a nice shortcut to try in OTTD
06:27<Samu>im reporting the bug, sec
06:35<Samu>a serious fault condition bla bla
06:36<Samu> hah, i see
06:41<Samu>there is another bug related to OpenGFX+ Landscape 1.1.2 but it's a price calculation error, doesn't result in a crash
06:42<Samu>should I report?
06:44<Samu> - Is it just me or is the site displaying weird?
06:47<Samu>it says planetmaker is manager
06:49<Samu>i'm not sure to whom I report this finding :(
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07:35<andythenorth>such mail tramz
07:35<andythenorth>I need a steam mail tram also
07:35<andythenorth>but 10/8 is an awkard length :P
07:36<andythenorth>4/8 engine, 2 wagons at 3/8?
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08:57<Samu> assert(index < this->first_unused);
08:57<Samu>it crashes here when trying to draw face of a non-existant company
08:58<Samu>manager face
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09:24<Samu>what's beter in english
09:25<Samu>water-based or water based
09:26<Samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL :Allow water-based infrastructure on canals owned by competitors: {STRING2}
09:26<Samu>is this english good?
09:28<Samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL_HELPTEXT :Allow construction of ship depots, docks and locks on canals owned by other companies. Also allow other water based infrastructures such as Oil Rigs and Objects to be funded or prospected on canals owned by other companies.
09:29<Samu>water-based or water based?
09:29<Samu>infrastructure or infrastructures?
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09:32<@Alberth>I'd be tempted to use waterbased, even, but water-based should be fine
09:33<@Alberth>not sure about "infrastructure", it's usually something technical, so an industry would work
09:34<Samu>but objects?
09:34<@Alberth>but an object might not really qualify as infra structure
09:34<@Alberth>eg a fishing boat or so
09:34<@Alberth>maybe "water-based structures" ?
09:34<@Alberth>(and I'd drop the examples)
09:37<@Alberth>not sure about fs#5612, I think there are more examples where newgrf costs are not entirely consistent
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09:38<@Alberth>if it's a bug the bug is in OpenGFX+landscape, I think
09:38<@Alberth>and not in openttd
09:43<Samu>STR_CONFIG_SETTING_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL :Allow water-based structures on canals owned by competitors: {STRING2} STR_CONFIG_SETTING_BUILD_ON_COMPETITOR_CANAL_HELPTEXT :Allow construction of ship depots, docks and locks on canals owned by other companies. Also allow water-based industries such as Oil Rigs to be funded or prospected on canals owned by other companies.
09:43<Samu>no mention to objects at all?
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09:45<Samu>oki, i'm submitting the patch, think it's ready
09:49<@Alberth>Well, "funded or prospected" is something exclusively for industries
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09:49<@Alberth>hi hi
09:50<Samu>i'll call it build on competitor canal v1 r27655
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09:57<drac_boy>unrelated but heh .. about to order a few hundred dollars worth of bavarian/drg trains by next week here :-p
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>"a few hundred dollars" would mean one model, if it's detailed enough...
10:16<drac_boy>matter of fact one of the marklin steam locomotive lettered for bavaria is not surprisingly rather low price but still comes with a few extra glue-on details still? ;)
10:17<drac_boy>most of the cost would be in wagons tho. especially with the coach at $50-$80 each -_-
10:21<drac_boy>on the other hand fleischmann wants to ask like $800+ for a P8 locomotive which is a bit odd given that fleischmann is not exactly one of your high end brands (especially compared to brawa etc)
10:21<drac_boy>kinda a bit weird but what do I know of what they're trying to do
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10:42<@Alberth>oh, that's easy, the're trying to get maximal profit now and in the future
10:42<drac_boy>alberth well they're in the wrong class for that tbh :)
10:43<@Alberth>they obviously disagree with you on that :p
10:43<@Alberth>aka you're not their intended public :p
10:44<drac_boy>alberth public = fleischmann != brass
10:44<drac_boy>they're probably going have to lose a large chunk of their market if they are moving to brass pricing
10:45<drac_boy>(brawa had always been a bit of a low volume but thats their merit for high details of unique models)
10:45<@Alberth>and you think they didn't consider that?
10:45<drac_boy>well given that marklin and even lgb both have been bailed out .. I don't think fleischmann would be wise to try skip the mass-$ market
10:46<drac_boy>(tbh marklin might have produced low cost models but many of their locomotives were and still are in the $300+ range)
10:47<drac_boy>bit OT but I think lionel even had to flip at least once too
10:50<Samu>Allow construction of ship depots, docks and locks on canals owned by other companies. Also allow funding or prospecting water-based industries such as Oil Rigs on canals owned by other companies.
10:51<drac_boy>samu hmm probably, I'm maybe not the best one to comment on that tho :p
10:52<Samu>about to submit patch, only fixing typos and comments and spaces, :(
10:52<Samu>and english
10:52<@Alberth>description seems ok to me
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11:14<Samu>interesting that I logged dates
11:14<Samu>took me 1 year and half to complete
11:15<Samu>i'm not sure if ppl like the idea of indestructible rivers
11:15<Samu>but that's how it is right now
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11:28<andythenorth>is it cat?
11:28<Samu>now i need testers and no one will test. kappa
11:29<Samu>oh well, back to being bored
11:30<andythenorth>Samu: try patching flat docks?
11:31<Samu>flat docks?
11:33<@Alberth>not raised
11:34<drac_boy>alberth you mean like you want be able to put a dock in a city canal without the issues of having to bulldoze a 2x3 hill to put it on?
11:34<andythenorth>1x2 tiles
11:34<@Alberth>^ that's the better person to ask ;)
11:35<andythenorth>it’s harder than it sounds
11:36<drac_boy>heh I've never had any issues with the canals .. but what do I know tho :)
11:43<Wolf01>Found new drug... Reassembly, I can't stop playing :D
11:44<drac_boy>wolf01 whats that? :)
11:45<Samu>oh, terraforming code
11:45<Samu>slope code
11:46<andythenorth>looks like nice art style Wolf01
11:46<Wolf01>Minimalist and Penrose style building
11:47<drac_boy>wolf01 ah heh well I think I'll stick to ttdxp at home and the infrequent progress on factoryidle .. but seem like you're quite a gamer tho :P
11:47<Wolf01>I'm a gamer, not quite :P
11:48<Wolf01>Also there is a lot of physics, if you want to change direction you need thrusters on the right points, which can weak your armor, so more armor and the thruster point changes XD
11:49<Wolf01>Or just spam thrusters until you can't add any more blocks
11:51*drac_boy puts a EVO ship onto wolf01's keyboard :p
11:52<drac_boy>wolf01 oh and if you're wondering what that is..this splash screen snapshot should say it all
11:52<Samu>oops, documentation bug t.t
11:53<andythenorth>steam mail tram
11:53<andythenorth>needs tweaks
11:54<andythenorth>engine is 4/8, would be better 3/8
11:54<andythenorth>but then the total length isn’t 10/8
11:55<argoneus>good evening train friends
11:55<andythenorth>I could do a single 7/8 wagon
11:56<drac_boy>anyway going for lunch so have fun wolf01 and samu
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11:58<Samu>copy paste habits
11:58<Samu>just posted v2
11:59<Samu>doesn't change the code portion at all
11:59<Samu>smart dock placement, i see
12:00<Samu>but that would require dock orientation?
12:00<Samu>there's 4 directions possible, hmm
12:00<andythenorth>or the lengths can change
12:02<Samu>what would a dock lenght do?
12:03<@Alberth>longer docks, would be my guess
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12:04<Samu>just that?
12:04<Samu>you want bigger docks to have more ships docking locations?
12:05<andythenorth>there are multiple possible approaches to docks
12:05<andythenorth>- limit the number of ships
12:06<andythenorth>- make them arbitrarily buildable in 1x1 units, XOR 1x2 / 2x1 units
12:06<andythenorth>- make them able to build on flat or slope, or force them to be on a water tile (arbitrary docking points, anywhere, supporting transfers)
12:07<andythenorth>- keep the current docks in all other respects, but also permit multi-dock so that ships go to the nearest dock, and stations can span land barriers
12:08<andythenorth>some of these are compatible ideas, some are mutually exclusive
12:08<andythenorth>I’d better also add this last one
12:08<andythenorth>- state machine
12:08<andythenorth>it’s kind of obligatory :P
12:09<@Alberth>you realize to talking to a programmer that doesn't know c++, right?
12:10<andythenorth>even better
12:10<andythenorth>I am not a programmer, and I also don’t know c++
12:10<@Alberth>ok :)
12:10*andythenorth is devloloper
12:10<andythenorth>sometimes engineer
12:11<Samu>D is dock
12:11<Samu>you want docks to be like super big?
12:11<Samu>X is docking points?
12:12<andythenorth>I don’t know :)
12:12<LordAro>ecks dee
12:12<andythenorth>someone needs to figure out how to make them better
12:12<andythenorth>they are bad
12:12<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE
12:12<Samu>then instead of allowing multi-ships on a docking point, only 1 ship per docking point
12:13<Samu>size of dock is user defined?
12:13<Samu>kinda like a rail station size currently is?
12:13<andythenorth>built as tiles
12:13<Samu>omg, that's a lot of stuff to do
12:14<andythenorth>epic amounts
12:15<Samu>the auto terraform is harder imo
12:16<Samu>docks have quite a bit catchment area, docks that long could be bad
12:18<@Alberth>start with 1 tile (or 2 tile) flat docks
12:19<@Alberth>2 tile looks better probably
12:20<Samu>the pathfinder would need to know where to send the ships in case of multi-docks
12:21<Samu>let me re-read flat docks again
12:23<Samu>maybe dock could autobuild a canal on bare land? that would help construction
12:23<Samu>but the 3rd tile would still need to be water
12:23<Samu>what if it isn't?
12:24<Samu>3rd tile aka docking point
12:30<Samu>a different approach for water construction: instead of coming up with an error saying that it must be built on water, auto builds missing canals
12:30<Samu>locks already seem to do this
12:31<Samu>building a buoy on land? auto-build the missing canal then put the buoy there
12:31<Samu>canal prices however... are too big
12:32<Samu>gonna try this approach
12:32<Samu>brb, editing
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12:44<andythenorth>docks should just be plain water tiles
12:45<andythenorth>remove the requirement to build near coast :P
12:45<andythenorth>much better for rivers and canals, also more interesting for feeders
12:50<Samu>'==': unsafe mix of type 'WaterClass' and type 'bool' in operation openttd D:\OpenTTD\trunk\src\station_cmd.cpp 2500
12:50<Samu>what does this mean? unsafe mix?
12:51<Samu>Owner oc = wc == HasTileWaterGround(tile_cur) && GetWaterClass(tile_cur) == WATER_CLASS_CANAL ? GetCanalOwner(tile_cur) : _current_company;
12:52<Samu>ah i see the problem
12:52<Samu>Owner oc = HasTileWaterGround(tile_cur) && GetWaterClass(tile_cur) == WATER_CLASS_CANAL ? GetCanalOwner(tile_cur) : _current_company;
12:58<Samu>drag and drop docks for placement
12:58<Samu>i can see your problem now
12:59<Samu>it would be handy indeed
12:59<Samu>minimum size required for drag and drop would be 2 tiles
12:59<Samu>a bit like auto-rail and auto-road
13:06<Samu>canal costs £5000, it's utterly expensive
13:06<Samu>why did you decide on this price?
13:07<@Alberth>no doubt it's a tunable cost with a newgrf
13:07<Samu>newgrf :(
13:08<andythenorth>probably set high (1) because ships are too boss or (2) mistake
13:09<andythenorth>ships are considered to be cheating by some
13:10<@Alberth>default ships are quit expensive too
13:11<@Alberth>also, 5k in default game is nothing
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13:15<@Alberth>note that 5k is still a lot cheaper than lowering ground until sea level :)
13:17<Samu>a monorail pieces cost £300
13:17<Samu>£300 * 6 = £1800
13:17<Samu>canal cost £1800 - fair?
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13:19<Samu>price of aqueduct is also bad
13:19<@Alberth>there is no universal agreement on such things
13:19<Samu>it already is hard to build them
13:23<andythenorth>Samu: canals are known to be totally borked :)
13:23<andythenorth>they have almost zero gameplay purpose
13:24<andythenorth>except for building airports at sea level
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13:40<Samu>what makes more sense to be cheaper?
13:40<Samu>3 tile lock or 3 tile aqueduct?
13:54<andythenorth>about the same
13:56<Samu>i've been thinking that maybe aqueducts have to be more expensive
13:56<Samu>vehicles can go under it
13:56<andythenorth>which steam mail tram option? 2 wagons or 1?
13:57<andythenorth>supermop, Alberth, Eddi|zuHause ^
13:57<andythenorth>[ anyone else also :P ]
13:58<andythenorth>I am preferring the single mail wagon
13:59<@Alberth>mail_tramz4, number 1?
13:59<andythenorth>number 1 in tramz_3 - the wagons look like space invader sprites to me
13:59<@Alberth>yeah, that was my first idea too, but then the mail wagon is bigger than any engine
14:00<andythenorth>it’s ok
14:00<andythenorth>pax version will be similar
14:00<@Alberth>the black roof makes it look weird perhaps
14:00<@Alberth>other black roofs are longer or shorter
14:01<andythenorth>pax version is this, or so
14:01<@Alberth>amazing that that stuff is still available
14:03<@Alberth>what if you make tramz4 number 1 a pixel lower? would that help?
14:03<andythenorth>the engine? Or all of it?
14:04<@Alberth>just the wagon
14:04<@Alberth>make it a little less massive
14:05<@Alberth>or add some windows at the start and end, like in number 3
14:05<andythenorth>I can make it more chibi
14:05<@Alberth>the red area is a bit big
14:05<andythenorth>I could just make it even shorter
14:06<andythenorth>ah here is RL version of a tram I drew already
14:06<andythenorth>funny when that happens :P
14:06<andythenorth>this one has a mailcar
14:06<@Alberth>ha, pax transport only when not raining :)
14:07<andythenorth>think it’s dutch
14:07<@Alberth>doesburg is a city
14:08<@Alberth>ha, can't imagine people would be happy with a steam tram, coal smoke through the street :)
14:09<andythenorth>at 1.29 in the video, there is an awesome bus also :o
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14:11<@Alberth>I saw :)
14:11<@Alberth>but 1957, so after WW2
14:11<andythenorth>I should just take the wagon from here, 0:38s
14:11<andythenorth>it’s not symmetrical though :
14:11<andythenorth>most of the tramz are symmetrical
14:12<@Alberth> another steam tram video, suggested
14:12<@Alberth>by YT
14:14<andythenorth>loads of them
14:14<andythenorth>better than google images in some ways
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14:18<andythenorth>better, but I need to redraw the engine?
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14:29<V453000>the engine is weird yes
14:31<andythenorth>working on it
14:32<supermop>two small wagons i guess
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14:35<andythenorth>chassis is weird colour
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14:40<V453000>certainly nicer
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14:53<V453000> /rant about boxcars
14:56<andythenorth>I should make them respect transparent mode
14:56<andythenorth>then you could see the cargo inside
14:56<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ V453000 has requested toggle-able vehicle transparency
14:57<andythenorth>controllable per vehicle layer by newgrf author, similar to industry
14:57<V453000>well the idea isn't completely retarded, just slightly ;P
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14:59<andythenorth>flag on the layer :P
14:59<andythenorth>and no it’s not silly
15:00<V453000>yeah sure it's reasonable :)
15:00<frosch123>just draw one less sprite?
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15:12<andythenorth>child #1 says the engine is too red
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15:14<V453000>send him to sleep immediately
15:14<V453000> /her
15:19<andythenorth>I am waiting for him to go to sleep also
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15:25<andythenorth>I think 9 nails it
15:26<andythenorth>the one with 2 doors messes with sense of scale
15:26<V453000>too green
15:27<andythenorth>I’ll make it more blue
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15:50<andythenorth>less chibi wagon, fits rest of set better
15:51<andythenorth>also pax wagon can be similar style
16:07<andythenorth>nah, it looks bigger than models that replace it
16:07*andythenorth changes back
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16:55<Samu>t.t, there's only 1 docking point :(
16:56<Samu>i don't know how to icrease it
17:01<sim-al2>Chibi train engage:
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17:18<Eddi|zuHause>i counter you with aühle_25.04.12.JPG
17:20<Samu>this is too much code for me to deal with
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17:22<Samu>roadstop drive through have bays
17:22<Samu>is part of the station
17:22<Samu>they can be free or busy
17:23<Samu>how to make a bay busy for a ship?
17:24<Samu>dock has 1 "bay"
17:24<Samu>i wanted to try and make 3 "bays",
17:25<Samu>no idea what to do at this point
17:26<Samu>guess I'm gonna do something else
17:28<Samu>an idea I had earlier today was a "drag and drop" building for docks.
17:30<Samu>click, then drag towards a direction, to a max of 2 tiles, release, and the dock is built towards that direction
17:30<Samu>with the exit towards that direction i mean
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19:47<goodger>(glasgow subway train designed for 335 cm tunnels)
19:47<Supercheese>the clockwork orange?
19:49<goodger>that's the badger
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20:01<Eddi|zuHause>so the badger is the opposit of the goodger?
20:02<goodger>yes, I am the opposite of a small, mal-designed and obsolete mass-transit system
20:02<Supercheese>The goodger, the badger, and the uglyger
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---Logclosed Sun Sep 18 00:00:21 2016