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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-09-18

---Logopened Sun Sep 18 00:00:21 2016
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03:21<andythenorth>bulldozer cat
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04:08<andythenorth>RL has copied Road Hog again
04:08<andythenorth>whatever I make up in my imagination, Russia has already built :P
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04:25<andythenorth>2 sizes of pax tram is silly? spams the buy menu?
04:25<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
04:25<andythenorth>sizes = capacities
04:25*andythenorth has progression issues
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04:38<@Alberth>is there any reason not to pick the biggest one?
04:38<@Alberth>moin Wolf
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04:43<Wolf01>Bleurgh, I'm malfunctioning today :(
04:43<Wolf01>But at least the pc started at the first try
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04:59<andythenorth>Alberth: only if it’s a small town
04:59<@Alberth>ok, that won't happen to me :)
05:00<@Alberth>also, small towns grow pretty fast, unless it's blocked by something
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05:01*andythenorth must find another way then
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05:24<andythenorth>odd numbers are the problem :P
05:25<andythenorth>total lengths divisible by both 3 units and 4 units isn’t possible except 12/8 or 24/8 :P
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05:56*andythenorth was reading about Wii U hardware, and now about Mario design
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06:09<@Alberth>games are designed too :)
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06:16<andythenorth>bloody trams
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06:33*andythenorth could just make pax and mail trams 16/8 long, like the freight trams
06:33<andythenorth>total consistency
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07:22<frosch123>andythenorth: devzone is undead again
07:23<V453000>Thanks frog
07:33<andythenorth>fanks :)
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07:54<andythenorth>8/8 mail trams, 16/8 box trams
07:55<andythenorth>new problem is that I need 2 more modern versions after number 3 :P
07:55<andythenorth>and number already looks modern :P
07:56<Wolf01>Make more streamlined ones
07:56<andythenorth>I’ll need to
07:56<andythenorth>pax trams have same need
07:57<andythenorth>slopes generally look bad in ttd scale though :)
07:58<Wolf01>Make just the side view streamlined ;)
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08:59<Samu>i still don't understand how terraform code works
08:59<Samu>so i find a tile with a slope I don't like
08:59<Samu>i flatten it
08:59<Samu>but then, i get different results
09:00<Samu>first pass i get a tile with the slope I don't like, the code after it is working with the assumption of the tile before the terraform
09:01<Samu>then at the second pass i get a flattened tile, the code after it is working with the wrong assumption
09:03<Samu> -- n
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09:55<Samu>i hate tree tiles
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10:02<Samu>IsCoast returns false for trees
10:03<Samu>this is stupid
10:04<Samu>trees don't have waterclass, why :(
10:07<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27656 trunk/src/object_cmd.cpp (2016-09-18 16:07:52 +0200 )
10:07<@DorpsGek>-Fix [FS#6511]: When removing objects of bankrupt companies the tiles may revert to canal. In that case also check the ownership of the canal.
10:09<Samu>oh nice frosch, ty
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10:15<andythenorth>so what whole numbers add up to 16? :P
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10:29<@Alberth>create a speed bonus depending on consist length :p
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10:36<frosch123>i think andy should atleast restrict the numbers to >= 1
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10:50<@Alberth>can you even make 0/8 size vehicles?
10:55<frosch123>i hope not :)
11:05<Samu>@calc 40 + 10000+10000+10000+10000+350
11:05<@DorpsGek>Samu: 40390
11:05<Samu>hmm i'm getting 40640 :(
11:06<goodger>Samu: using an intel microprocessor?
11:07<Samu>ah right, 250 more
11:07<Samu>cost of terraform
11:07<Samu>lower land
11:07<Samu>@calc 40 + 10000 + 10000 + 10000 + 10000 + 250 + 350
11:07<@DorpsGek>Samu: 40640
11:08<Samu>so, placing a dock with automatic terraform can get a cost of up to 40640, due to the cost of lowering a corner on water
11:09<Samu>i don't think this is a good idea
11:11<Samu>it eases construction, but the player has to be smart about it
11:12<Samu>it's not even canal, it's ocean water
11:17<Samu>actually, this cost can go higher
11:21<Samu> m_value 41570 __int64
11:21<Samu>not much higher though
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11:55<Samu>£45k :)
11:55<Samu>when it has to build canal
11:55<Samu>oh well
12:12<Samu>docks cannot stop a flood
12:12<Samu>unless built on a canal
12:12<Samu>if i remove the dock, it may not be a good idea to remove the canal automaticaly
12:16<Samu>auto terraforming on sea level... :( hmm
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12:25<mender27>Hello everyone :). I was wondering whether there are some ongoing efforts to convert the original MIDI music files into mp3 or any other format? I have some seriously problems getting timidity++ to work on GNU/Linux.
12:28<@Alberth>even if there is such an effort, the converted results could not be distributed
12:29<@Alberth>there is also libtimidity, did you install that?
12:30<Samu>is there a way to get a GetTileMinZ or a way to detect if we're at sea level?
12:32<@Alberth>no TileHeight or so?
12:34<@Alberth>Samu: GetTileZ
12:34<Samu>oh, oki
12:35<@Alberth>oh, and TileHeight too, I wonder what the difference is
12:37<@Alberth>ah, GetTileZ gives minimum height of its corners
12:37<Samu>if (GetTileZ(tile_cur) == 0) return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE);
12:38<Samu>is there a SEA_LEVEL or something so i dont type 0
12:38<@Alberth>I hate that error, it doesn't say what is wrong
12:38<@Alberth>nah, just 0
12:38<andythenorth>trams 11 and 16
12:38<mender27>Alberth, does it have something to do with the license? And no, I haven't heard of libtimidity umfortunately.
12:38<andythenorth>16/8 long, consistent with most other tram lengths
12:38<andythenorth>too chibi?
12:39<@Alberth>mender27: original music is copyrighted, just as original game data
12:39<Samu>land sloped in wrong direction then?
12:39<andythenorth>supermop: is tramz ^^
12:39<mender27>Alberth, are the music replacement projects in MIDI then?
12:40<Samu>no more automatic terraforming at sea level :)
12:42<@Alberth>mender27: I have no idea; I tend to use the NoMusic music pack, which is lovely silent :p
12:43<mender27>Alberth, the reason I'm asking is that there is a known conflict between timidity and PulseAudio and it cannot be manually fixed by some file replacements. I personally really like the original music :).
12:47<andythenorth>so what GS should I use in my test game? o_O
12:48<@Alberth>city builder?
12:48<Samu>if (GetTileZ(tile) == 0 && GetTileZ(tile_cur) == 0) return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE);
12:48<V453000>andythenorth stop pretending you play this game
12:48<Samu>tile is the sloped dock tile on land, tile_cur is the watered dock tile
12:49<andythenorth>V453000: sometimes
12:49<andythenorth>for about 60 years
12:49<V453000>I have actually been playing quite a bit in the last 2 days too
12:49<@Alberth>Samu: they can be different?
12:49<andythenorth>game is ok
12:50<andythenorth>got some problems, but eh
12:50<mender27>Alberth, last question. Is it fine if the sound files the OpenTTD project provides are packaged for Fedora?
12:50<V453000>well I am still finding new things that nobody has built yet ever andythenorth
12:50<V453000>that alone to me is absolutely insane
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>elections are "fun"... everybody loses, but some of those losers declare themselves "winner"
12:50<V453000>that a game can be actually so complex for years
12:51<@Alberth>mender27: Don't think any court will be impressed that you have created original work then :)
12:51<@Alberth>and quite likely, Fedora will never accept such files
12:52<@Alberth>but why make your life difficult? just dump the files in ~/.openttd
12:52<@Alberth>probably in some sub-directory of that
12:53<mender27>Alberth, well, the files are available as AUR packages for Arch Linux somehow. I mean, I could also just use the in-game downloader to get them that way.
12:53<@Alberth>that means someone is not respecting copyright
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12:54<@Alberth>and probably someone else is not checking stuff carefully :)
12:54<mender27>Alberth, alright, this seems pretty clear then. I was not aware of that.
12:54<Samu>is there a way to forbid the terraform to touch water tiles?
12:54<mender27>Alberth, I only saw that the opensfx files are under Creative Commons Plus.
12:54<Samu>ret = DoCommand(tile_cur, z ? slope : ComplementSlope(slope), z ? 0 : 1, flags, CMD_TERRAFORM_LAND);
12:55<Samu>a flag?
12:55<andythenorth>V453000: what have you found? o_O
12:55<@Alberth>mender27: yep, but that's sound effects, and not music
12:55<@Alberth>there may be a music pack too
12:55<andythenorth>ach, these passenger trams are breaking my brain
12:56<@Alberth>tried the ingame downloader? type "music" and see what turns up :)
12:56<mender27>Alberth, well, I was personally more interested in the music. Either of them can be downloaded via the in-game downloader, except that music will not work due to a conflict with PulseAudio as I mentioned.
12:56<Samu>flags & DC_NO_WATER?
12:56<mender27>Alberth, so I think if at all, I should probably come up with a smart workaround to get the music to play at all and not spend time finding means of packaging it :P.
12:57<@Alberth>bleeding edge software breaks every now and then :)
12:58<mender27>timidity++ is actually quite old and the problem's been around for some time already :(.
12:58<@Alberth>I think I use it too, for sfx, and it seems to work
12:58<@Alberth>but I don't care much about sound or music, as I usually have the radio on
12:59<mender27>Alberth, it works for sfx, yes. Not for music, though. Regarding the music files, I realized it's fine for Arch Linux to have the packages in AUR, because they only contain means of downloading the files, not the files themselves.
12:59<@Alberth>ah, that would be fine
12:59<mender27>Alberth, everything in the end is pulled from the OpenTTD project repositories :).
12:59<mender27>same for FreeBSD ports, in fact.
13:00<@Alberth>luckily, linuces tend to have their own mirror :)
13:00<mender27>I see
13:00<@Alberth>that saves us a lot of bandwidth
13:00<mender27>tehe ;)
13:00<@Alberth>now if they also would always distribute the newst stable ....... :)
13:01<Samu> - got a problem here. I'm placing a dock, and the terraform is gonna auto-flat the corner of the 2nd tile, but that means I'm touching the water... I don't want to allow sea leavel changes, what do I do?
13:02<@Alberth>what's the point of a dock that is not at water height?
13:02<mender27>Alberth, you mean the "nightly" gets used or what?
13:02<@Alberth>mender27: not much at all, I think
13:03<Samu>imagine an aqueduct is placed in front of it
13:03<@Alberth>but some distributions still use 1.5.3, while we have released 1.6.1 almost 6 months ago
13:03<mender27>Alberth, I know Arch Linux regularly builds the newest version where there is a version bump.
13:04<mender27>when there is*. Otherwise yes, Ubuntu, Debian, etc. use the old version.
13:04<@Alberth>that's to be expected, Arch is literally bleeding edge :)
13:04<mender27>Fedora also has the most recent version I think.
13:04<@Alberth>Samu: perhaps not use all corners for deciding height, but eg only the middle 2 or so?
13:05<@Alberth>no idea, I always build directly from trunk, hardly ever use a stable :)
13:05<@Alberth>Samu: but you need to define something so the user knows what he will get
13:06<mender27>Alberth, what VCS is used by the OpenTTD project?
13:06<@Alberth>you can of course also check other tiles for water height
13:06<@Alberth>mender27: commits are in svn, but there are mirrors to hg and git
13:07<mender27>Alberth, cool, I might be interested in checking the git mirrors then. I work primarily with git, though I did use svn for FreeBSD kernel tree sources.
13:07<@Alberth> ( for online browsing)
13:08<mender27>Alberth, thanks a lot :). What GNU/Linux distribution do you use?
13:08<mender27>Alberth, have you tried Arch Linux also?
13:09<@Alberth>no, arch linux didn't exist at the time
13:10<@Alberth>and I am sort of done experimenting linux distributions
13:10<@Alberth>ie I just need one that works, and that's it
13:11<@Alberth>I prefer to hack program source code rather than fighting OS programs :)
13:11<@Alberth>at work I use Ubuntu, and that sort of works too, except for Gnome :p
13:11<mender27>Alberth, hehe, I agree. I'm reaching a similar conclusion recently. I'm actually hacking package distribution in Fedora nowadays.
13:12<mender27>Alberth, I switched all of my machines, even servers to Fedora, because there's just so much less hassle.
13:12<mender27>and at work we use CentOS, as it was deemed "the most stable" from the RPM family.
13:13<@Alberth>ha, we did that too, but it turned out a bit too stable :p
13:14<@Alberth>you can't run anything from outside sources, as everybody assumes newer packages of everything :p
13:14<mender27>Alberth, ah yes, this does tend to happen. Most of my folks are computer savvy, but not UNIX savvy so we went for CentOS. It's supposed to just work.
13:15<mender27>Alberth, the added requirement was a distribution supported by our program suite provider. That's also one of the reasons I switched to Fedora and not stayed with whatever other UNIX-like.
13:16<@Alberth>makes sense
13:17<@Alberth>although in the end, the differences are not that big, which is also a reason not to experiment too much with distributions
13:17<@Alberth>they don't have radically different software at all :)
13:19<mender27>Alberth, exactly. Plus, it's worth knowing how to distribute for one of the "big three". Just to let you know, I removed the project with the music files I had on the Fedora build server.
13:20<andythenorth>power tram + 2 short trailers
13:20<andythenorth>chibi, but less silly
13:21<andythenorth>(trams 1 and 3)
13:23<@Alberth>looks better indeed
13:23<@Alberth>white train gone?
13:23<@Alberth>mender27: nice
13:24<@Alberth>also, time for dinner
13:26<mender27>Alberth, if there are more people actually interested in getting the MIDI files to play on GNU/Linux with PulseAudio, I might find the motivation to work on a solution. Right now it's "case closed" and I'll simply use the in-game downloader :).
13:26<Samu>flags | DC_NO_WATER ?
13:27<Samu>yay, DC_NO_WATER was the answer
13:27<Samu>flags | DC_NO_WATER
13:27<Samu>ret = DoCommand(tile_cur, z ? slope : ComplementSlope(slope), z ? 0 : 1, flags | DC_NO_WATER, CMD_TERRAFORM_LAND);
13:28<mender27>nice job Samu :).
13:28<Samu>terraform, but not on water
13:32<andythenorth>steam buses
13:33<@Alberth>"carriages" covers them better :)
13:34<@Alberth>in-between horse carriages and proper trams :)
13:34<V453000>andythenorth: just some extremely insane construction
13:35<V453000>basically I have trains load passengers just to make them fulfill some conditional condition, and the passengers get deadened upon refiting magix
13:36<Samu>here's what I got so far,
13:37<Samu>the part about Move to second tile was were i made the auto terraform changes
13:37<Samu>the 3rd tile won't check for water
13:37<Samu>just build´~
13:38<Samu>i copy pasted that coa stuff from tunnelbridge, still a bit confused about it
13:44<Samu>what does clear object area do?
13:51<Samu>i dont understand how it works
13:51<Samu>only that it gets the job done
13:54<mender27>Alberth, how is multiplayer handled in OpenTTD? Direct IP-to-IP connections?
13:55<@Alberth>not sure, but one of the machines becomes the server, and handles synchronization, and distribution of commands
13:56<mender27>Alberth, like in old-school LAN, right?
13:57<@Alberth>that could work, but you can also play across the internet
13:57<mender27>Alberth, I think old Diablo 2 had such an option.
13:57<mender27>Alberth, there was an IP-to-IP mode, but also via LAN with a central host.
13:57<@Alberth>all machines play the game, you just need one of them to handle synchronization and connecting to
13:58<mender27>Alberth, makes sense then. Cool :). Do you play OpenTTD in multi often?
13:58<@Alberth>I don't play the game much at all :)
13:58<@Alberth>but that seems to be a habit of devs :p
13:59<@Alberth>we prefer games in source code :p
14:00<mender27>Alberth, tehe. and I came up with a way to play the music while gaming. The OST is available on Youtube. As in "fun with numbers"? ;>
14:00<@Alberth>could work :)
14:01<mender27>man, the original music is simply godly...
14:12<frosch123>mender27: <- that has some openttd multiplayer theory
14:23<mender27>frosch123, thanks a lot :).
14:23<mender27>The theory might be useful for some of my feature Python projects ;D.
14:33<Samu>why not add replays to openttd?
14:35<Samu>"desync recording", rename it to "replay"
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14:47<Rubidium>because it is unstable as hell? Add/remove/change one character in the source code and things might not replay in the same way anymore
14:55<Samu>even in the same version?
15:07<Rubidium>no, but same is really strict
15:16<Samu>if (GetTileZ(tile) == 0 && GetTileZ(tile_cur) == 0) return_cmd_error(STR_ERROR_SITE_UNSUITABLE);
15:16<Samu>ret = DoCommand(tile_cur, z ? slope : ComplementSlope(slope), z ? 0 : 1, flags | DC_NO_WATER, CMD_TERRAFORM_LAND);
15:16<Samu>i need both, after all
15:16<Samu>and this if (!IsTileFlat(tile_cur)) {
15:18<Samu> - better view
15:18<Samu>line 1, 2 and 19
15:25<Samu>seems to be doing what i want
15:25<Samu>there are too many slope configurations
15:26<Samu>do you see a combination which could be removing water?
15:26<Samu>sea water
15:27<Samu>maybe this part needs a comment
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15:33<Samu>there are 7 slope configurations for the 2nd tile
15:33<Samu>1 of them is flat
15:33<Samu>the other 6 are auto-terraformed
15:34<Samu>but it depends if it touches sea water
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15:41<andythenorth>such tramz
15:41<andythenorth>[just getting the sizes right]
15:47<andythenorth>#5 too long still
15:50<andythenorth>#1 is such realisms
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17:10<Samu>is there a problem with the terraform command with | DC_NO_WATER or is it me?
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18:56<Samu>i think i found the problem
18:57<Samu>coast tiles are not water
18:57<Samu>let me continue this investigation
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---Logclosed Mon Sep 19 00:00:23 2016