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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-10-05

---Logopened Wed Oct 05 00:00:55 2016
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03:02<DaniDroid>hola
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08:42<Samu>hi
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09:14<Samu>i just found something funny
09:15<Samu>openttd listing in alphabetical order puts it like this: MogulAI, NoCAB, NoNoCAB
09:15<Samu>neverming, i'm stupid
09:16<Samu>lol, it's correct, it's M, not N
09:16<Samu>NogulAI
09:16<Samu>lel, i'm sorry
09:38<Samu>I found a "not-really-a-bug"
09:39<Samu>the finances window lists train, road, aircraft, ship in this order
09:39<supermop>good morning
09:39<Samu>but everywhere else the order is train, road, ship, aircraft
09:41<Samu>game settings also got this switched
09:41<Samu>train, road, aircraft, ship
09:42<Samu>for breakdowns, and max no of vehicles
09:44<Samu>is it worth "fixing"?
09:47<supermop>probably not
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10:26<Samu>just started testing the new versions of WmDOT and AIAI
10:28<Samu>road vehicles AIAI v97, trains AIAI v97, aircraft AIAI v97, Original ships WmDOT v14, NPF ships WmDOT v14, YAPF ships WmDOT v14
10:28<Samu>let's hope my system doesn't crash
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11:59<argoneus>good afternoon train friends
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12:42<supermop>yo
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13:07<argoneus>I was always wondering
13:08<argoneus>is there a particular reason openttd uses squirrel and not lua/python?
13:08<argoneus>like, is there more to it than "preference"
13:13<@Rubidium>object oriented and relatively small
13:13<@Alberth>a working implementation helps too
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13:18<argoneus>bleh ._
13:18<argoneus>.
13:25<@Rubidium>https://computerscomputing.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/lua-and-squirrel-the-case-for-squirrel/
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13:37<@Alberth>hola
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13:39<andythenorth>o/
13:39<frosch123>hoin
13:39<@Alberth>o/
13:41<andythenorth>cat
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13:48<Samu>why did i read that?
13:49<Samu>whatever... what's a garbage collector?
13:49<@Alberth>something with curiosity being stronger than you?
13:51<@Alberth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_collection_(computer_science) no pretty pictures, unfortunately
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14:05<supermop>yo andy
14:05<supermop>how have you been
14:07<andythenorth>yair
14:08<andythenorth>all the thigns
14:08<supermop>comprehensive
14:09<Samu>well, uh... i give up trying to understand what's a garbage collector
14:10<andythenorth>don’t they just sweep up dead objects?
14:10<andythenorth>and free memory?
14:10<@Alberth>it's not a simple subject, I am afraid
14:10*andythenorth never learnt
14:10<andythenorth>surely it’s something like checking there are no inbound pointers to an allocated range
14:10<andythenorth>or something
14:10<@Alberth>it is, but you must understand what a dead object is, then :)
14:10*andythenorth never programmed
14:11<@Alberth>oh dear, who wrote all that Python code then? :o
14:11<andythenorth>that’s not programming
14:11<andythenorth>that’s devloloper
14:12<Samu>i remember i was able to cause openttd to crash with tons of NoCABs and executing a sendmap to a player joining the game, and someone mentioned it was the garbage collector
14:12<Samu>but it got lost
14:13<Samu>i couldn't replicate the bug :(
14:13<Samu>the crash
14:14*andythenorth has never ever used a formal debugger
14:14<andythenorth>more proof that is devloloper
14:14<Samu>i was always a memory error
14:14<Samu>it
14:15<@Rubidium>a garbage collector is really easy; imagine cleaning food and whenever you know you're not going to use the part of the food anymore throw it away. This is effectively manual "garbage" management. On the other hand, just keep cleaning stuff and once in a while pick out everything that you're not going to use anymore. This is like garbage collecting. With the former you always need to know whether you kee
14:15<@Rubidium>p using it, with the latter you do not. However, with the former you always know how much time there is between peeling two potatos whereas with garbage collection you do not. After all, you might not collect the garbage between peeling the two potatos, but occasionally you have to because the place becomes unwieldy and then the time between peeling those two potatos becomes really large
14:17<@Rubidium>ofcourse the intricacies are more complicated, but the general idea is really simple
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14:20*andythenorth should add garbage collectors to Road Hog
14:21<@Alberth>there is waste cargo?
14:21<andythenorth>I like this one http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-indian-street-scene-with-rubbish-truck-taken-in-kolkatta-28274106.html
14:21<@Alberth>haha, camouflaged :p
14:22<andythenorth>Ape! http://gcmouli.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/garbage2.jpg
14:22<andythenorth>my three wheel truck is still broken
14:22*andythenorth must fix
14:23<Samu>what is common between lzma and garbage collector?
14:23<Samu>an ai garbage collector
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14:23<@Alberth>they can be executed by a cpu
14:23<Samu>they don't like each other very seldomly
14:23<Samu>and crash openttd server
14:24<Samu>they run in paralel?
14:25<@Alberth>sounds possible at least
14:25<@Alberth>save is done in a different thread
14:26<@Alberth>maybe lzma isn't thread-safe?
14:26*andythenorth could play MP game, or work on something like Road Hog
14:26<andythenorth>or have dinner and go to sleep :P
14:26<@Alberth>all good options :p
14:27<@Alberth>MP game may be a bit late-ish, unless you have a ready map
14:27<Samu>trying to remember...
14:27<@Alberth>@logs
14:27<@DorpsGek>Alberth: https://webster.openttdcoop.org/index.php?channel=openttd
14:27<@Alberth>Samu: ^
14:28<Samu>think it was a crash on "free", something related to freeing something from memory twice
14:28<Samu>ok
14:29<supermop>andythenorth: sv?
14:32<Samu>hmm, crash would happen on ntdll i think
14:32<andythenorth>supermop: I probably can’t give it enough attention tonight :)
14:32<supermop>fair enough
14:32<@Alberth>ah, I remember seeing that here, and elsewhere, but ntdll is not part of openttd
14:32<supermop>i am at work, so i probably shouldn't
14:33<andythenorth>if we want to win that SV save, we need about 5 people playing
14:33<andythenorth>otherwise not a chance :)
14:33<supermop>haha
14:33<supermop>that little valley is a pain to fit vehicle factories into
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14:36<Samu>ah, free heap crash on ntdll
14:36<Samu>what's a heap?
14:37<Samu>https://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/vstudio/en-US/4a6d6859-39a5-4c3a-b8f2-4692cc275113/access-violation-on-free-?forum=vcgeneral
14:37<Samu>yeah, it was something liek this
14:37<supermop>i want to play some kind of game where no factories are randomly on top of a 6000 ft uninhabited plateau
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14:38<supermop>and all the carnegies have built their steel mills as far from ore and coal as possibel
14:38<andythenorth>supermop: that’s the best place for them
14:39<supermop>i probably want more of a cartoon urban monorail gif than a game
14:39<supermop>off to see radioheadd and kendrick lamar this weekend
14:42<Samu>RtlpLowFragHeapFree
14:43<Samu>openttd was doing a free, then ntdll would crash on RtlpLowFragHeapFree i rememer
14:44<Samu>sometimes it was lzma doing a free, sometimes it was an ai doing a free
14:44<Samu>can they conflict with each other somehow?
14:45<Milek7_>but free on what object?
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14:47<Samu>i don't know, can't recall
14:47<Samu>it was during a big while loop
14:47<Samu>not really sure
14:48<Samu>can't remember about the lzma one
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14:51<Samu>AI was computing his stuff, and this giant loop was taking place when it crashed
14:52<Samu>as for the lzma, it was happening concurrently at the same time as this loop
14:53<Samu>map was being sent over the network
14:58<andythenorth>supermop: would it be more fun to play on a relatively flat map? o_O
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15:19<Milek7_>hm
15:19<Milek7_>i wonder if there will be people who will want to play with ~15 daylength factor, so one game will be lasting around 3 weeks
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15:29<Wolf01>o/
15:31<supermop>andythenorth: IDK
15:31<supermop>i never really try that but maybe
15:33<@Alberth>o/
15:46<Samu>would that increase the autoclean too?
15:46<Samu>time
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15:53<Milek7_>Samu: i think that with 240 companies there won't be need for autocleaning
15:58<Samu>ah, i see
15:58<Samu>you want to make openttd a bit more like an "open world" kind of game
16:02<Samu>how many seconds would be 74*15
16:02<Samu>or is it 72? i forgot
16:03<supermop>what if towns were somehow responsive to cdist?
16:03<supermop>like a town that become some major node, or better connected, will grow faster
16:04<supermop>i wonder if a gs could do that
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16:12<@Alberth>supermop: like all the citybuilder scripts?
16:13<supermop>those don't really have any knowledge or care of how well connected a city is
16:13<@Alberth>afaik they do react to cargo deliveries
16:14<supermop>a city isolated on a desert island but with a good tram service will grow better than one in the center of the map with a train station that happens to have connections to every other town in the region
16:14<@Alberth>ah
16:15<@Alberth>hmm, you cannot quite see origin of cargo
16:16<supermop>Alberth: i mean to have growth depend not on total passenger numbers as much as either how well you can travel to other towns, or how many people flow through or change at the station
16:16<Milek7_>GSStationList_CargoPlannedByFrom GSStationList_CargoPlannedByVia
16:16<@Alberth>maybe there are calls to look into cdist, originally for AIs, I think
16:16<supermop>like, if we have large towns ABCD in corners of a square
16:16<supermop>and tiny village x in the center
16:17<supermop>most people living in A may want to go to B C or D for work or pleasure,
16:17<supermop>but if they have to change trains at X, eventually a man will open a news stand there
16:17<Milek7_>i'm working on something like that, but i lately don't have time for it
16:18<Milek7_>https://gist.github.com/Milek7/2d25ff9f01f69f1dc73dfda43e50d4cc
16:18<supermop>then another will open a bar
16:18<supermop>and maybe the railway hires more people to work at the station,
16:18<supermop>then they want to live nearby
16:18<supermop>and over time X becomes a major city itself
16:20<supermop>cdist might have 1000 people waiting to transfer at x from a A-C train to a B-D train, but they have no effect on growth as they do not get delivered there
16:21<supermop>maybe a GS could simulate, "this area has large flows through it, this would be a desirable town to live or work in" and then trigger growth there
16:24<supermop>or just "this town has a lot of capacity from it to other towns - commuters will live here"
16:28<Milek7_>i doubt if google translated polish text is readable, but here are some ideas: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=pl&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fopenttd-polska.pl%2FThread-Inne-Projekt-skrypt-New-World-Disorder&edit-text=&act=url
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16:31<Milek7_>and if somebody wants to test script: http://openttd-polska.pl/attachment.php?aid=838
16:31<Milek7_>currently requires FIRS
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16:40<supermop>its currently usable as a gS?
16:45<Milek7_>yes
16:45<Milek7_>but very early stage
16:47<supermop>looks interesting
16:47<supermop>assume there is not .en translation?
16:48<supermop>the translation of the thread is readable
16:52<Milek7_>script have english lang file (it is only 7 words currently, so no much to translate ;p)
16:55<supermop>what folder do i save a gs into?
16:57<supermop>ok looks good so far
16:57<supermop>architecture 05?
16:57<supermop>0%?
17:00<Milek7_>delivery of building materials (BDMT) into town
17:00<Milek7_>in future this will be customizable, currently it is hardcoded into config.nut
17:05<supermop>ok
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17:23<Samu>what goes in the head of openttd main devs when they review patches?
17:25<Samu>do i have to go to #openttd.dev?
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17:42<_dp_>Samu, http://blueballfixed.ytmnd.com/
17:45<Samu>what is that
17:48<FLHerne>Ooh, that thing!
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17:49<FLHerne>Samu: It's a system to process small pixelated blue balls
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17:55<Samu>what happens to the patches on flyspray?
17:55<Samu>or those in the forum
18:00<_dp_>Every year on April 1 devs randomly select one patch, apply it and release new version
18:04<FLHerne>And every year on April 2nd, I ritually grumble about the ever-growing list of trivial, well-tested, beneficial patches that weren't applied
18:10<Samu>is that true? only 1 patch? :(
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18:17<_dp_>well, on leap years it's two...
18:18<Samu>what about bug patches :( i posted some of those, but it's been months and nothing happened t.t
18:24<Samu>well i got some stuff dealt with, :o
18:25<Samu>but not recently
18:25<Samu>actually, i'm wrong
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18:26<Samu>someone fixed a canal crash very recently
18:26<Samu>but there's more stuff out there :(
18:31<Samu>remko bijker fixed most of my reports
18:32<supermop>Milek7_: it seems the labels for inner city and intercity transit are reversed
18:32<Samu>let me count, lel
18:33<Samu>Alberth (Alberth) - fs#3816
18:33<Samu>Alberth (Alberth) - fs#3798
18:34<Samu>oops wrong
18:34<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#3798
18:34<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#3819
18:36<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#4109 not fixed
18:36<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#4222
18:37<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#4223
18:38<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#4224 I'm surprised this one got implemented
18:42<Samu>Jean-Francois Claeys (Belugas) - fs#4231 the first time I tried to help at fixing something, i think i remember this episode
18:43<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#4247 duplicate, but fixed
18:45<Samu>Loïc GUILLOUX (glx) - fs#4251
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18:46<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#5523
18:46<+glx>wow old
18:47<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#5524
18:50<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#5531 not fixed
18:52<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#5539 heh turns out it was adobe flash, not openttd, nor external library
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18:53<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#5541
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18:55<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#5566 duplicate, but fixed
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18:59<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#5568 I remember this one, crashing without generating the crash files, nice job getting it fixed.
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19:10<Wolf01>'night
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19:13<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#5571 fixed, then reverted, then re-fixed again :)
19:14<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#5594 not a bug, t.t
19:18<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#6000 duplicate, but fixed
19:19<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#6001
19:21<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#6002 unreproduceable, but fixed
19:21<goodger>uhh
19:22<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#6003
19:23<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#6013
19:24<Samu>Remko Bijker (Rubidium) - fs#6015
19:27<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#6209 bug in AMD GE, i no longer use it. At least AMD recognized it and no longer ships it with their drivers.
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19:29<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#6215 false report, heh... sorry about that
19:33<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#6254
19:35<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#6264
19:36<Samu>Alberth (Alberth) - fs#6268
19:38<Samu>Alberth (Alberth) - fs#6271 - not fixed
19:38<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#6461
19:39<Samu>frosch (frosch) - fs#6511
19:39<Samu>and I'm done
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19:50<Samu>fixed-not_fixed ratio: Alberth 2-1 / Rubidium 13-3 / frosch 8-4 / Belugas 1-0 / glx 1-0
19:50<Samu>Rubidium wins as the most fixer of my reports :p lol
19:51<Samu>i'm pretty bored
19:51<Samu>as you can see
19:57<Samu>cyas all goodnight
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---Logclosed Thu Oct 06 00:00:57 2016