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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-10-08

---Logopened Sat Oct 08 00:00:59 2016
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03:16<@Alberth>more horses today?
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06:31<Milek7_>in squirrel assigning variable copies object or creates reference to it?
06:32<@Alberth>objects? always a reference
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09:12<Samu>5 of 6 ai tests completed, waiting for AIAI aircraft to reach 2051
09:13<Samu>AIAI v97 performed worse than v95 with road vehicles and trains
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09:37<Milek7_>it is possible in newgrf to read and perform math on vehicle properties set by other newgrf?
09:38<Milek7_>for example shift every vehicle introduction date by 10 years
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09:45<Samu>Kogut crash reports are so short
09:46<Samu>quote: "crash"
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10:00<Samu>nice, new RoadAI version on banana server
10:00<Samu>time to test
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10:14<Samu>started testing RoadAI
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10:55<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can only check for presence of another newgrf, not what's in it
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10:57<@Alberth>hi hi
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11:53<Samu>I bet Grimes plays Path of Exile
11:54<Samu>there's even a song named Belly of the Beat
12:05<Samu>there's a labyrinth garden, a door, a library, ruins, a mountain... call me crazy, but too much coincidence
12:05<Samu>oh yeah.. statues, statues everywhere
12:06<Samu>even a coliseum
12:06<Samu>meh, nobody here cares :(
12:09<Samu>even a lake
12:18<Samu>woah, mirrors too
12:23<Samu>if AIAI aircraft doesn't crash, then he's gonna beat AdmiralAI
12:23<Samu>still 25 years away from goal and already ahead in company value
12:32<Samu> that settles it, statues! she plays poe
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13:03<Wolf01>It's a-me Wolfo!
13:06<Wolf01>Pc is back from hospital, with a provisional motherboard, courtesy of the shop
13:09<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't it better be "wolfio"?
13:09<Wolf01>As you want
13:11<Eddi|zuHause>well, you could do "WolfOI" :p
13:11<Wolf01>Mmmmh, how do I update a git project from VS?
13:12<Wolf01>Oh, found it
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>VS knows about versioning now?
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13:12<Wolf01>In team explorer... fetch or pull?
13:12<Wolf01>Yes, it does
13:12<Wolf01>And does that so automagically I never noticed it until it asked for the password
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13:15<+glx>there's a git plugin yes
13:15<Wolf01>I think I don't even installed it
13:16<Wolf01>I just opened a project from a git checkout and VS added it on the team explorer
13:17<@Alberth>smart software :p
13:18<@Alberth>git fetch just gets stuff from remote, pull also tries to merge it
13:18<@Alberth>always so useful to have hg od it just the other way around :p
13:20<Samu>what happened to your pc
13:29<Eddi|zuHause>'s basically why i never got warm with git, it uses all the wrong names for things
13:30<Milek7_>i never used hg
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>hg provides a much more natural/intuitive transition from svn, naming-convention-wise
13:31<Wolf01>How do I set min_active_clients for a savegame in multiplayer?
13:32<frosch123>pretty sure that's no savegame setting
13:32<frosch123>so, set it on the server
13:32<Wolf01>It doesn't give a fuck if I set it from console/openttd.cfg, when I load the save it starts
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>when you try to learn git with svn background, you get a "why would they call it X when it does Y" feeling with every. single. command.
13:34<Wolf01>Uhm, it can be that I'm hosting from client?
13:34<Wolf01>And that only works with dedicated
13:34<Eddi|zuHause>yes, it's only for dedicated
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13:35<Eddi|zuHause>(and even if it's not, the non-dedicated server counts as a client)
13:35<frosch123>what if you join spectators?
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13:36<Wolf01>I set 0 spectators, I need to rehost, but I'm doing it with dedicated now
13:36<Eddi|zuHause>combine that "wtf" with every command with a community that when you ask "how do i do X" they don't tell you "do Y" but "you need to learn the basics"
13:37<Eddi|zuHause>and your enthusiasm to learn git once and for all drops to 0
13:37<Wolf01>True that, Eddi
13:39<Milek7_>i can't imagine how some projects are still using svn
13:39<Milek7_>it is terrible
13:39<@Alberth>it's an order of magnitude simpler than any distributed VCS
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure still the majority of projects don't use versioning at all
13:40<frosch123>if not two magnitudes
13:40<@Alberth>distributed VCS is about the biggest gun you can find to solve the versioning problem
13:40<frosch123>anything that requires merging first requires to learn about whitespace
13:44<@Alberth>and big guns come with big problems to handle
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you're american, you might come with a mindset that ignores problems with guns :p
14:11<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: you mean "the gun is not the problem, but the solution"
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14:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: more like "if guns don't solve your problem, you're not using enough of them"
14:22<@Alberth>git does come with a model of how you should work, if you try to use it without the model it breaks badly
14:23<@Alberth>and it has a horrible user interface, although if you just stick to the simple elementary subset, it doesn't bother you much
14:23<@Alberth>except some stuff is a bit longwinded to do
14:25<Milek7_>can command line tool can have user interface? :p
14:27<@Alberth>the command line is the user interface
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes, there can be bad and good command line interfaces
14:28<@Alberth>it's fully correct in the technical sense, but total crap from a HCI
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes, which makes it completely inaccessible from a non-technical approach
14:31<@Alberth>if you ignore the over-engineered bits, it's not so bad, the sequence of commands are just a bit longer :p
14:31<@Alberth>but it's not svn-like or hg-like at all
14:32<@Alberth>I am suspecting they deliberately picked different names for everything to avoid people trying to use git as a svn/hg system
14:32<@Alberth>which is not so bad, the system is really different
14:34<@Alberth>the big difference is that you can also have remote repos locally
14:35<@Alberth>they just have different labels
14:36<@Alberth>s/can// even, you have that as soon as you want to do anything with a remote repo
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14:50<Eddi|zuHause>i have a new project i'll never do: program a tool called "tig" that operates on the git data structures with a sane comman naming
14:51<Wolf01><Milek7_> can command line tool can have user interface? :p <- I made a web interface for SVN
14:53<Wolf01>It was used to create the repositories and update the working copies on the staging server
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14:54<Milek7_>Eddi|zuHause: what's wrong with git command names?
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7_: what's wrong with callind a table a chair, a boot a table, and a cell phone a modem?
14:56<@Alberth>there are a couple of git-rename command projects :)
14:56<Wolf01>In git you make a checkout with clone, and a... I don't even know what with checkout
14:56<@Alberth>but obviously they all break on the different model that git uses
14:57<Milek7_>change branch
14:57<Milek7_>or switch to specific commit
14:57<@Alberth>what you expect to do with git branch, but you can't
14:57<+glx>easier to just use github application ;)
14:58<Eddi|zuHause>what i always meant to ask: is there an official way to pronounce the "g" in "git"?
14:58<@Alberth>yeah, it's so bad people actually layer a tool on top of it to avoid using the command line
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14:59<Eddi|zuHause>or is that like "gif" where there are two groups that are of opposite opinion and totally despise each other?
14:59<@Alberth>no doubt linus has an asnwer to that
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14:59<Wolf01>SVN uses checkout, update and switch (to branch/tag), the commands seem pretty explainatory to me, with git, I fail to do a checkout 2 times every 3
14:59<@Alberth>I find it a non-issue, as whatever you pronounce it, you still type "g"
15:00<Eddi|zuHause>what i find weird is that my internal pronunciation of "git" and "gif" are not the same
15:01<@Alberth>Wolf01: don't try to push a svn or hg model onto git, it doesn't work
15:01<Wolf01>I'm the only one which can read it different based on why writes it? (yes, I'm weird)
15:01<@Alberth>git has its own logic, separate from everything else
15:01<Eddi|zuHause>by "internal" i mean the "sound" i make in my head while typing
15:01<@Alberth>well, perhaps the same as "apt-get" which I also constantly fail to understand
15:02<Milek7_>apt is the worst packaging system that exists
15:03<Wolf01>May I say NuGet?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>Milek7_: how is that statement different from "git is the worst versioning system that exists"?
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>or "C++ is the worst programming language that exists"?
15:04<+glx>I'm with Wolf01 on NuGet :)
15:04<Wolf01>No Eddi, that's PHP
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>well, i don't think i ever used apt-get, and i have never heard of NuGet, which is probably understandable given the first fact
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: well, sure, but that's not stopping people making a statement like this :p
15:06<@Alberth>Milek7_: I think it's technically fully correct, the UI is just total crap
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>Alberth: which is exactly what you said about git earlier :p
15:07<@Alberth>but some techies don't care about anybody but themselves
15:08<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: I see a lot of parallels between both systems :)
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15:08<@Alberth>underlying technology is leading in the UI
15:08<@Alberth>instead of designing it from the top down
15:09<Milek7_>i always have problems with dependecies with apt
15:09-!-CR7 [~oftc-webi@2001:8a0:f649:201:a06a:12ec:3adc:969] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
15:09<Wolf01>I see a lot of parallels between everything, as everyone has his own preferred softwares and operational methods
15:09<Wolf01>For example I love Windows 10
15:09<@Alberth>everything is connected! :)
15:10<Milek7_>something like "Depends: X but it is not going to be installed"
15:10<+glx>Wolf01: I have a nice UI translation fail for french in windows 10
15:11<Wolf01>I usually force the install of dependencies, I don't even consider apt doing what it wants
15:13<Milek7_>windows 10 have good error messages
15:13<Milek7_>"something happened"
15:13<Eddi|zuHause>can't beat earlier windows versions reporting "Error: No Error"
15:14<+glx>"update history" is translated in 2 different ways on the same page, and 1 is totally wrong
15:14<Wolf01>Use the feedback tool and report it? :D
15:16<+glx>oh they failed at "update settings" too it seems
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>how many days until i can stop caring about an election in a far away country that i have no influence on?
15:21<Samu>when america becomes poor
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15:22<Eddi|zuHause>some times i wish i could put stop-word filters on news sites
15:23<+glx>ho the translation error is already reported it seems
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15:25<Wolf01>Andy was scared
15:27<Eddi|zuHause>is that unusual?
15:28<Wolf01>No, it's common that cats get scared for nothing
15:33<Milek7_>i showed you tetris over ipv6 traceroute?
15:35<Wolf01>You or Samu did that
15:38<Samu>what did i do?
15:42<Samu>speaking of translations, what's happening to the portuguese translation of openttd?
15:42<Samu>so many typos and missing strings lately
15:42<+glx>feel free to apply as a translator :)
15:43<Samu>ahm... well i could try fix the most blatant errors
15:45<Samu>i had an account there, let's see if i remember
15:46<Samu> Project Portuguese (pt_PT) OpenTTD trunk Start fixing
15:46<Samu>is this it?
15:47<Samu>nice, got to run openttd in portuguese again for a while
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15:53<debdog>polar bears!
15:59<Supercheese>seaplane bears?
16:00<andythenorth>sea zellepins
16:01<Supercheese>already have sea zeps, for servicing those oil rigs
16:02<Supercheese>sea zeppelin
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16:07<Wolf01>Mmmh, dedcated server stuck at "starting game"
16:10<Samu>some gs's take time to launch :(
16:10<andythenorth>zellepin of the sea
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16:10<andythenorth>Cat is gone
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16:22<Wolf01>Firewall says OTTD is using port 2780 to advertise on master server, shouldn't it be 3978?
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>needs more context
16:23<Wolf01>Can't advertise on master server
16:23<Wolf01>NAT ok, firewall ok
16:23<@DorpsGek>Alberth: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>you can usually ignore outgoing ports
16:24<+glx>master server listen on 3978
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>firewalls usually don't care about those
16:24<+glx>but it can be any port on your machine :)
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, for outgoing communication, source port is random
16:25<Wolf01>I forwarded ports from 3977 to 3979 to the server IP (I moved it to another machine, here it worked)
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>you forwarded both TCP and UDP?
16:26<+glx>master server must be able to reach your server on the port your server tells it it is listening (3979 by default)
16:27<Wolf01>I know that
16:27<Eddi|zuHause>when you say "here it worked", were you running the server on the router before?
16:28<Wolf01>I have 2 pc, and I want to use the other one for dedicated server, as it's always on
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16:28<Eddi|zuHause>and from where to where are you redirecting the route?
16:29<Wolf01>On this pc I'm on now, I used to run the UI client to host the game
16:29<Wolf01>Now I changed the IP on the router's NAT to point to the other pc
16:29<Eddi|zuHause>for both TCP and UDP?
16:29<Wolf01>Yes, everything
16:30<+glx>usually I just add the machine on a different port :)
16:30<Eddi|zuHause>if you're sure it's not the router, it's the firewall on the server
16:30<Wolf01>I think I sould do that too
16:30<+glx>you rebooted the router after the change ?
16:30<Wolf01>The firewall on the server already allos all activity (both tcp and udp) for the entire application, doesn't matter whichc pot
16:30<Wolf01>No, I didn't
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16:30<Eddi|zuHause>rebooting should not be necessary for any sane router
16:34<Wolf01>Changed back the IP to this pc, it advertises succesfully, I'm adding a new forwarding rule with different ports
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16:35<Wolf01>Ok, with different ports works, so I think glx is right
16:35<Wolf01>I should reboot the router
16:35<+glx>no need if it works on a different port :)
16:35<Eddi|zuHause>just leave the different port in
16:36<Wolf01>Yes, but now I know that if I change the IP I need to reboot the thing
16:36<Eddi|zuHause>that sounds like a bug
16:37<Wolf01>This poor thing has 10 years and don't have updates since 2009
16:37<Samu>Error: String command for position 0 is wrong, base language uses {STRING}, the translation uses {STRING1}
16:37<Samu>what does that mean?
16:37<Samu>Base lang string: (travel for {STRING1}, not timetabled)
16:37<Samu>I don't get the error
16:38<Samu>(viajar durante {STRING1}, sem programação)
16:38<+glx>IIRC translations can only use {STRING}
16:39<Samu>but base lang got {STRING1}
16:39<+glx>what's the string name ?
16:39<Eddi|zuHause>translations must use {STRING}, strgen will fill in the {STRINGn} from the master language (english)
16:41<+glx>yes only use {STRING} in translation
16:50<Wolf01>Oh, lol, now the server's firewall is blocking this pc because it's thinking I'm trying to attack it on a specific port
16:51<+glx>stupid firewall
16:51<Wolf01>And seem there isn't a way to tell it to let this ip pass no matter what
16:55<Samu>how the heck do you translate things such as "Perlin noise"
16:55<Wolf01>It's a name
16:56<Wolf01>You don't translate names usually
16:56<Wolf01>Except if you are italian
16:56<+glx>check how it's done on wiki ;)
16:58<FLHerne>Samu: You could translate 'noise', if there's a suitable term
16:59<Eddi|zuHause><Wolf01> Except if you are italian <-- well, there are some examples of books that were translated into german, and it also changed place names, like "london" into "berlin"
16:59<Wolf01>That's a lot of kilometers ;)
17:00<+glx>hehe they used to relocate anime in france in 80's
17:00<Samu>Ruído de Perlin
17:00<+glx>changing all names
17:00<Wolf01>Usually here they change anime chars names to something more recognisable, like Giovanni or Lucia or Mario
17:01<Samu>sounds so retarded, but i'll use this
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>usually, there are also later translations of the same book, with the original place names
17:01<Eddi|zuHause>so if you're picking up old books, you sometimes need to make sure which version it is
17:02<Eddi|zuHause>i vaguely remember that aldous huxley's "brave new world" was one such example
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17:14<Samu>adviser or advisor?
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17:19<Eddi|zuHause>oh, and there are also names which have actual translations, like Charles -> Karl, Henry -> Heinrich
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>which you come across fairly often when talking about medieval kings and stuff
17:24<Samu>Base lang string: Landscape: {STRING2} -> Cenário: {STRING2} Error: String command for position 0 is wrong, base language uses {STRING}, the translation uses {STRING2}
17:24<Samu>i use {STRING} again?
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17:26<Wolf01>Could I use the scrollto command to make a client scroll to that position?
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think so, but maybe a gamescript can do that?
17:27<Wolf01>It would be more useful a command on the client list
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17:58<+glx>Samu: always use {STRING}
17:59<+glx>all STRINGx are STRING in translations
18:00<Samu>timetable translation is too confusing without watching the final result
18:05<Samu>YESH! 0 strings missing, I win
18:05<Samu>was already getting bored
18:10<Samu>tomorrow i'll take a better look at this translation thing
18:20<Samu>AIAI aircraft server ending in 3 years :)~
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19:26<Samu>AIAI finished
19:27<Samu>woah, almost doubled AdmiralAI which was the current no.1
19:56<Samu>a quick fast forward game of roadai shows that the new version is performing worse t.t
20:06<Samu>question, is there a way to recompress a .sav file without loading and saving it again?
20:06<Samu>erm, let me rephrase
20:07<Samu>i saved using zlib:1, but want to convert to using lzma:9 without loading/saving because it would break some AIs
20:09<Samu>wanted to upload smaller files to the forum
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---Logclosed Sun Oct 09 00:00:01 2016