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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-10-20

---Logopened Thu Oct 20 00:00:07 2016
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08:24<masab>my problem related to trains
08:24<@planetmaker>hi. Best describe the problem in its entirety
08:26<masab>after upgrading trains and to maglave construction after many year the trains not following the oders but in the binging of maglave trains was following orders properly
08:28<masab>now tains behaving like trains not following orders and running on different rail stations instead of orders
08:29<@peter1138>possibly missed out a bit of track conversion
08:30<masab>i again start the game again come to the same situation its again and again
08:32<masab>how can i send you screenshot >
08:34<Wolf01>Check for implicit orders in trains schedule?
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08:42<@planetmaker>maybe a piece of track was exploded by an ufo?
08:44<masab>no on the same track maglave trains was working well but after few years on the same track and same maglave train not following the orders
08:44<@planetmaker>or the depots are not all converted and available - but they look for a depot to service in - and get wildly on the wrong track, looking for the closest one
08:45<masab>no trains also going to depot but situation is still same
08:46<masab>you can join me online and view right now and see the real situation
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08:52<@planetmaker>sorry, I can't at this moment
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08:53<@planetmaker>masab, maybe write in our forums?
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09:36<supermop_>good morning
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10:16<masab>i am not satisfied with all
10:24<Wolf01>masab, you should write about your problem in the forum and attach a screenshot/savegame, not just reading it
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10:59<supermop_>hi Alberth
11:02<goodger>honestly, planetmaker, what does openttd, inc. pay your massive salary for, if not to solve nebulous problems on IRC
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11:06<@Alberth>just ban everybody? should solve all IRC problems
11:11<argoneus>good evening train friends
11:11<argoneus>I was wondering
11:11<argoneus>if you have a game that has a GUI frontend
11:11<argoneus>and a separate class or something for the actual game logic
11:12<argoneus>how do you make them communicate if it has to be twoway?
11:12<argoneus>some sort of intermediate controller class or whatever?
11:13<argoneus>nice anus
11:13<argoneus>anus is my favourite
11:14<@Alberth>standard pattern for GUIs and logic in the MVC pattern (model-view-controller)
11:14<argoneus>so basically what I described
11:14<argoneus>though it's a bit of a mishmash for me
11:16<argoneus>basically when the game receivess something from the network, it tells the GUI to update itself
11:17<argoneus>and vice versa if you click something in the GUI it tells the game to send it over the wire
11:17<argoneus>so it's a situation where... everyone needs to know of everyone else
11:17<argoneus>I'll just make it game<->controller<->gui
11:17<argoneus>where the controller will forward requests from game to gui and vice versa
11:17<argoneus>even if it's not a strictly MVC model it makes sense to me
11:18<@Alberth>MVC is a very general model (as are most design patterns), you rarely use them as-is
11:19<@Alberth>you may want to make explicit what lives at both sides of the network
11:19<Milek7_>gui could register callbacks for updates in game
11:19<Milek7_>or vice versa
11:19<Wolf01>Oh, are you into game development too, argoneus?
11:19<argoneus>nooot quite
11:19<argoneus>it's just a random pet project
11:19<@Alberth>at least into GUI development :)
11:19<argoneus>GUIs are the bane of my existence
11:20<argoneus>it's just a random pyqt thing
11:20<argoneus>as for registering callbacks
11:20<argoneus>I suppose I could do that but I never really figured out how to do that
11:20<argoneus>the most I ever did was have a list of classes that care about what I'm doing and .notifying() them
11:21<argoneus>eh I'll just hack something together, thanks Alberth
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11:22<Wolf01>I'd use events
11:24<Wolf01>I'm making this
11:25<Wolf01>But better and with blackjack and hookers
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11:25<argoneus>ooooo shit waddu
11:25<argoneus>is that
11:25<argoneus>battle city
11:25<argoneus>or whatever it was called
11:26<argoneus>godspeed my friend
11:27<argoneus>what are you making it on
11:28<@Alberth>qt has such nice callback hooks
11:28<Wolf01>Oh, nothing too weird, just some more tank types and powerups
11:28<argoneus>Alberth: you mean the whole connect() thing?
11:28<argoneus>or is there something more
11:28<Wolf01>But I need to get rid of some collision bugs
11:29<argoneus>I mean like
11:29<@Alberth>yes, the connect function stuff
11:30<Wolf01>C# + Monogame
11:30<argoneus>oh, nice
11:30<argoneus>why monogame though
11:30<argoneus>isn't libgdx all the hype
11:30<argoneus>or even unity
11:31<Wolf01>Unity is too weird, I can't understand how the ide works, not enough freedom
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11:39<Wolf01>Mmmh, how do I snap a vector to the nearest coordinate? I mean, I want to snap the position in a 8x8 grid when turning, but the movement is free (could be incremented even by 0.1)
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11:41<argoneus>Wolf01: you should have a way of translating
11:41<argoneus>in game coordinates to grid coordinates
11:41<argoneus>and then it's trivial
11:41<argoneus>you just round
11:42<argoneus>if I understood your question that is
11:43<Wolf01>No, I want to just be able to round by 8 the current position
11:43<argoneus>round by 8?
11:43<argoneus>also battle city had free movement altogether, no?
11:43<Wolf01>Yep, only when turning
11:43<@Alberth>I don't understand the question
11:43<argoneus>no wait it didn't
11:43<argoneus>it was 4way
11:44<Wolf01>It's to allow to center a narrow passage :P
11:44<@Alberth>but snapping is usually size * floor(pos / size) possibly with a + size / 2
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11:47<Wolf01>The problem is that I have the bounding boxes for collisions of the same size of the tiles, but the movement is really fine, if you don't have a reference such a wall to collide and turn it's a pita to be able to pass in a 1 tile narrow passage
11:58<argoneus>Alberth: I just realized
11:58<argoneus>it's not exactly MVC
11:58<argoneus>because I don't just react to user input
11:58<argoneus>I feed the GUI information even without it
11:59<argoneus>I can't figure out a way to make 2 way communication "cleanly"
11:59<argoneus>without mixing things
11:59<@Alberth>mix what?
11:59<argoneus>the controller usually reacts to user input, asks the model for stuff, and passes it back
12:00<argoneus>but in this case, the controller should do that and also react to data coming from the network
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12:00<argoneus>so game logic receives stuff from network -> passes it to controller -> controller updates gui
12:00<argoneus>user clicks gui -> passes it to controller -> controller tells the logic what to do
12:00<@Alberth>the first line is a wrong assumption, I think
12:00<Wolf01>Vector2 v = position / snapRadius;
12:00<Wolf01>return new Vector2((float)Math.Round(v.X), (float)Math.Round(v.Y)) * snapRadius;
12:00<Wolf01>Easy :|
12:00<argoneus>so I mix two behaviours in the controller, no?
12:00<argoneus>wrong assumption?
12:01<@Alberth>controller reacts to input, not necessarily user input
12:01<@Alberth>maybe the simplest solution is to have 2 controllers
12:02<argoneus>so input could be network data as well
12:02<argoneus>I was thinking that too
12:02<argoneus>networkcontroller and guicontroller
12:02<@Alberth>one that updates the gui from the data that you have and that changes
12:02<@Alberth>and one that handles input
12:03<argoneus>so essentially
12:03<@Alberth>where you can split the latter between user and network, ie 2 input controllers
12:03<argoneus>one controller will react to incoming network data
12:03<argoneus>and the other will react to incoming user input
12:03<argoneus>and both will do the necessary steps to update the game logic / gui?
12:03<argoneus>though what if user input translates to a network command
12:03<argoneus>then the controllers also need to talk together
12:04<@Alberth>I'd think both update the data storage
12:04<@Alberth> make a queue of data to be sent to the network
12:05<argoneus>so a real example
12:05<argoneus>user sends a message through the gui, and the message only shows up clientside once the server received it (for obvious reasons)
12:06<@Alberth>you could opt for keeping user input and stuff from the network completely separate
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12:06<argoneus>I send message -> gui controller updates outgoing network queue -> network controller sends it -> [server receives it and sends it back] -> network controller receives message and passes it into incoming network data -> gui controller receives the data and draws it
12:06<argoneus>something like this?
12:07<@Alberth>I think so
12:07<@Alberth>anything you enter first does a round-trip to the server and back
12:07<@Alberth>does give latency in response, of course
12:08<argoneus>I need to be sure the messages are in the right order
12:08<argoneus>and when the server has 100 clients sending the messages
12:08<argoneus>the server has to decide who was first
12:08<argoneus>so I can't predict anything
12:08<argoneus>I think
12:09<argoneus>but yeah
12:09<argoneus>having a network controller will help a lot I think
12:09<argoneus>because then I can asynchronously process both an incoming/outgoing queue
12:09<argoneus>or I could just have a gui controller
12:10<argoneus>and slap a network handler inside my game logic
12:10<argoneus>that should also work
12:10<argoneus>why is this so much more complicated than I thought it would ._.
12:10<@Alberth>too many independent things happening
12:12<argoneus>I'm just gonna treat network as part of game logic
12:12<argoneus>the idea is that the game itself should send/receive stuff on its own without any sort of gui present
12:12<argoneus>so I should code it with that in mind
12:12<argoneus>even if the game requires a GUI, it should work without one
12:12<argoneus>on a logical level
12:13<@Alberth>and you have data stored at either side, to reduce the need to ask remotely for stuff
12:13<argoneus>for all I care the game is just a glorified tcp client
12:13<@Alberth>*both is the right word, likely
12:13<@Alberth>you keep a data storage at both sides of the network
12:14<@Alberth>at the server and at the client(s)
12:14<argoneus>the client keeps track of its own state
12:14<argoneus>and the server keeps track of every client's state
12:14<argoneus>I even have half the server written already
12:14<@Alberth>server needs central knowledge, client needs to know what to display to the user
12:15<argoneus>though one more question
12:15<argoneus>in a MVC model
12:15<argoneus>if the model changes, does it notify the controller or the view?
12:15<argoneus>"hey controller, update the view"
12:15<argoneus>or does it directly update the view
12:15<argoneus>or does the view monitor the model
12:16<argoneus>so many possibilities
12:16<@Alberth>you'd have to read the wiki page
12:16<@Alberth>but usually, having a separate thing for separate parts is a good idea
12:16<argoneus>the wiki said that the model directly updated the view
12:16<argoneus>but that seems off in my case
12:16<argoneus>the game logic has no reason to care about some view
12:16<argoneus>so I'm a bit confused
12:16<@Alberth>it can be done, eg EMF does that
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12:17<@Alberth>you can hook update callbacks in the model itself
12:17<@Alberth>Eclipse Meta Fsomething
12:17<@Alberth>core of Eclipse Modeling
12:17<andythenorth>my 2nd favourite link of today:
12:17<andythenorth>favourite link is above
12:18<argoneus>I dunno
12:18<@Alberth>+2 for the cat picture :D
12:18<argoneus>my game logic directly changing the gui seems bad
12:18<argoneus>imo the game logic should just be a tcp client that keeps its own state
12:18<argoneus>and some other entity keeps track of what the logic is up to
12:18<@Alberth>it avoids having to write a controller
12:18<argoneus>I'd basically need two controllers otherwise, right
12:19<argoneus>one to translate user input to game logic
12:19<@Alberth>but eventually, there is code that updates the gui, either way
12:19<argoneus>and one to update the gui based on game logic
12:19<@Alberth>as I said, MVC is very general, nobody uses it unmodified
12:19<argoneus>I think for now I'll go with two controllers like we said before
12:20<argoneus>one to deal with user input and translate it to game logic
12:20<argoneus>and one to translate game logic into gui updates
12:20<argoneus>that seems to make the most sense to me right now
12:20<@Alberth>doing stuff in a way that makes sense, makes a lot of sense :)
12:21<argoneus>or hell
12:21<argoneus>I'll skip having an user input controller
12:21<argoneus>and just call the game logic directly from the GUI
12:21<argoneus>it should be fairly high level commands
12:21<argoneus>functions rather
12:22<argoneus>I just need to tell the game logic "user attempted to send message hello!"
12:22<argoneus>I don't need a controller for such basic thngs
12:23<argoneus>it's different the other way around
12:23<argoneus>as a simple game logic update can require multiple GUI changes
12:23<argoneus>so a controller there makes sense
12:23<argoneus>thanks for helping me bounce ideas Alberth!
12:23<argoneus>have a nice evening
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12:23<@Alberth>"controller" is just a way of thinking about it, you can eventually give it any shape you see fit
12:24<argoneus>I'll make the QWidget itself a controller, then :)
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12:47<andythenorth>mail tram!
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13:00<Wolf01>Btw, nice ones
13:00<@Alberth>he just loves cats and tramz :)
13:00<@Alberth>nice solution to your problem btw
13:01<Wolf01>The vector rounding?
13:01<Wolf01>I used the idea you gave me about rounding ad applied that to vector components
13:01<@Alberth>works because the rounded value is in the center, I guess
13:02<Wolf01>I even found that a snap radius of 16 is even better, as you rotate by 90° you don't notice the snap
13:03<@Alberth>making it magically work :)
13:04<Wolf01>You need to be very precise to position the tank and turn to see it really moves by ~7 pixels
13:04<@Alberth>you know what to look for, and when :)
13:04<Wolf01>Or 15
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13:41<andythenorth>this one is good too
13:41<andythenorth>needs a tl;dr though :P
13:44<@Alberth>so the cat mystery is solved, and you have new tramz, such progress :)
13:45<supermop_>andythenorth: i was expecting another tram
13:45<andythenorth>much progress
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13:48<supermop_>i wonder how hard it would be to build my own N tramway pointwork
13:48<supermop_>do people still build their own point?
13:49<supermop_>tramway points should be easier - just one bit that flaps back and forth
13:49<Wolf01>Define "point"
13:58<Wolf01>Then call it switch?
13:58<Wolf01>I never understood the difference, that's why I asked
13:58<supermop_>i do but assumed the European audience here called them points
13:58<supermop_>americans call them switches
13:59<Wolf01>I always call them switches, or junctions, even in italian
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14:00<supermop_>il Switch?
14:00<supermop_>or la switch?
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14:02*andythenorth wondered when people would start talking about Switch here
14:02<andythenorth>I just read the review
14:03<andythenorth>switched back to irc, boom, we’re talking about it :P
14:03<Wolf01>Btw, "lo scambio"
14:03<andythenorth>“what the Wii U should have been"
14:04<Wolf01>I hope that thing won't cost 300€
14:04*andythenorth is not a dedicated gamer
14:04<andythenorth>we have a Wii U, kids like it, didn’t break it yet
14:04<andythenorth>controllers cost more than the console
14:05<Wolf01>I have a Wii U too, and the only thing I like about it is the ability to play on bed without the tv
14:05<Wolf01>Not with all games, but the 2 ones I have allow it
14:06<andythenorth>whenever I read Nintendo reviews, they are all from the perspective of ‘this console is underpowered and over-priced'
14:07<andythenorth>which overlooks that it’s the only thing that runs recent Mario Kart
14:07<andythenorth>I don’t care how many polygons it draws per second
14:07<andythenorth>it has Mario Kart, and nothing else does
14:10<Wolf01>I wanted to buy that too, but no fun to play alone
14:13<supermop_>i wonder if it is better to buy standard scale rails and cover them with something, or buy some generic metal strips to inlay
14:14<supermop_>my old wii was essentially just a mario kart appliance
14:15<andythenorth>supermop_: you don’t want to just buy track?
14:15<supermop_>im wondering
14:16<supermop_>the modular tramway ive seen doesn't spark my interest
14:16<supermop_>but i could buy regular track and set it into some wood or concrete table top
14:16<supermop_>or use brass or copper so it looks fancy
14:17<andythenorth>Kato Unitram?
14:17<supermop_>looks to toy-ish for what i want
14:18<Wolf01>I really like the Kato Unitram instead
14:18<supermop_>i want a topologically accurate, but visually abstract model of this:
14:18<supermop_>set in a nice walnut shelf/table top
14:19<supermop_>laser cut or cnc rout the top layer of wood veneer to fit around trackwork?
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14:19<andythenorth>did you see the black-top layouts I found?
14:20<andythenorth>think I shared them
14:20<supermop_>hmm sounds vaguely familiar
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14:24<supermop_>hmm table top card game layout?
14:24<supermop_>the guy plays a game of marshalling train shown on cards huh?
14:25<supermop_>could be fun
14:25<andythenorth>inglenook shunting puzzle
14:25<andythenorth>it’s a logic problem basically
14:26<supermop_>build a table with 4 yards for a game night?
14:26<andythenorth>people do yes
14:26<andythenorth>or 2 back to back
14:26<supermop_>what about depots along way to drop off certain cars out of mixed freight
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14:28<Wolf01> I've seen it many times :)
14:29<supermop_>sounds like a use for my little N 08
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14:33<Wolf01>Too bad the one I found for trainz simulator doesn't work
14:33<andythenorth>supermop_: there’s also ‘timesaver’ but I don’t get it
14:33<andythenorth>Wolf01: there’s a very old javascript version somewhere
14:34<supermop_>too bad the only other n stuff i have is a 158, 225 swallow set and 125 swallow set
14:34<Wolf01>But driving the train is better :D
14:34<andythenorth>I was going to build an inglenook, but then….I couldn’t be arsed
14:34<supermop_>not much marshaling to do
14:35<supermop_>maybe an excuse to buy some railfreight grey 47 and bunch of wagons
14:36<Wolf01> the timesaver one
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14:42<supermop_>ok nvm this looks really tedious
14:42<Wolf01>And people ask for shunting in OTTD
14:48<andythenorth>I went rapidly off the idea, running trains on my kids 4x8 oval is quite relaxing
14:48<andythenorth>actually doing shunting puzzles…not
14:52<frosch123>we need an alphabetisation program for trains
14:54<andythenorth>frosch123: to teach them to read? o_O
14:55<Wolf01>So they can read how much late they are running
15:03<V453000>Wolf01: thats nice :D
15:04<V453000>frosch123: slugs can
15:04<frosch123>it's a V!
15:04<frosch123>i commited the sprite stacking btw, if you didn't notice
15:04<V453000>iz alive
15:04<frosch123>so, more slugs :)
15:05<V453000>so it is in trunk now?
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15:05<V453000>I am kind of holy shit levels of busy with factorio right now but I would love to start working on the train set soonish
15:05<Wolf01>So you can helpz with NRT now?
15:05<V453000>finishing BRIX first though, too ._.
15:06<frosch123>Wolf01: possible :)
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15:11<andythenorth>frogs, wolves
15:19<V453000>hello andythenorth
15:19<andythenorth>hello V453000
15:19<V453000>how do you tram?
15:19<andythenorth>getting any sleep?
15:20<V453000>yeah it is not horrible
15:20<V453000>exactly 7:15am there is an organic alarm
15:20<andythenorth>7.15 :o
15:20<andythenorth>that’s like…the middle of the day
15:20<V453000>is great
15:21<V453000>she does not sleep during the day almost at all however
15:21<V453000>like, unusually little
15:21<V453000>but hm :)
15:21<V453000>cant have everything
15:22*andythenorth 5 trams left
15:22<andythenorth>then trammed up to the max
15:22<andythenorth>until version 1.1
15:22<V453000>I have sketches for almost ALL the train models for BRIX
15:22<V453000>but didnt have enough time to blender them
15:23<V453000>drawing almost every day in subway :D is like 1hr per day so it goes somewhere, but 3D work is behind a lot
15:23<V453000>I am seriously considering getting a tablet and a wacom pen and drawing shit in metro directly into sprites
15:25<V453000>but yeah maybe later, already bought headphones for christmas for myself :D
15:25<andythenorth>noise cancelling? o_O
15:26<V453000>no, just for home
15:27<V453000>I usually have relatively noise cancelling (not actively) headphones on my head all day long at work, so I actually like not listening to shit in subway
15:27<andythenorth>my friend bought noise cancelling headphones when he had kids
15:27<andythenorth>for holding crying baby
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15:27<andythenorth>for those who aren’t parents, this isn’t misogynistic uncaring crap, it’s just basic survival :P
15:28<V453000>and at home I prefer to use open headphones which actually let noise in/out because 1. the sound is clearer and I vastly prefer it, 2. I dont use it that noisily to annoy surroundings, and I can hear that there is someone talking to me, even if i cant undertand what they want immediately without puttin the headphones down
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15:28<V453000>XD right
15:28<andythenorth>I have open headphones
15:28<andythenorth>avoids having to take them off
15:28<V453000>well to be fair, Ema almost never cries
15:28<andythenorth>you have ideal baby
15:28<V453000>also I got them wireless, the freedom is amazing
15:28<V453000>no fucking wire
15:29<V453000>........ also bring the benefit of exporting fecal matter while keeping headphones on
15:29<andythenorth>I have
15:29<andythenorth>looks stupid, but works grat
15:29<andythenorth>great *
15:30<V453000>the sound is better than anything I have heard before
15:31<V453000>I was using in-ear headphones at some point too, but the super heavy bass isnt exactly what I prefer, and having them in my ears for a long time is just pain to me
15:32<andythenorth>also tramz
15:32<andythenorth>1st one needs a few pixels changed
15:32<andythenorth>otherwise done
15:33<V453000>looks awesome
15:33<V453000>kind of hating the huge black rectangles on the second one but eh
15:33<V453000>some gray would be nice to change the solid color
15:34<andythenorth>the roofs look crap on the second one
15:34<andythenorth>also in / \ views, worse
15:34<V453000>yeah the roofs are another thing
15:38<Wolf01>"I refused to believe my road worker father was stealing from his job, but when I got home, all the signs were there."
15:39<andythenorth>ha ha
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15:59<Wolf01>I'm bored now
16:01<supermop_>build a shunting puzzle?
16:02<Wolf01>Too much work
16:03<Wolf01>I don't want to code this evening, I've done that every night since sunday
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16:03<Wolf01>About 50 hours of work this week
16:07<andythenorth>sometimes I just watch YT videos
16:07<Wolf01>A movie, good point
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16:07<Wolf01>If I open YT I'll look for another 2 hours documentary about restoring steam locos
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16:53*andythenorth failed to draw tramz tonight
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17:30<supermop_>maybe i could make a brio puzzle instead
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 21 00:00:09 2016