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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-10-21

---Logopened Fri Oct 21 00:00:09 2016
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01:30<Knogle>Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday.
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01:57<SpComb>yesterday was international "reboot your Linux" day, today is the "you should really upgrade and reboot your Linux if you haven't yet" day
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02:21<Alkel_U3>oh snap, haven't done that for half a year on my server
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06:47<Wolf01>Do somebody knows how I could see what the garbage collector is doing in VS? I would like to get rid of some useless instances which are released after some times, but I don't know what they are, as the GC only shows an indicator in the graph
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07:00<Eddi|zuHause>if you're ever trying to influence what the GC is doing, you're probably not using GC right...
07:00<Ethereal_Whisper>I'm trying to learn how to deal with quad track
07:01<Ethereal_Whisper>Seems double track gets too saturated and jams if I go with a map bigger than 256x256
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>so, either you shouldn't worry about what GC is doing, or you shouldn't be using GC at all
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>Ethereal_Whisper: first rule of quad track: do not have X crossings between tracks of the same direction
07:02<Ethereal_Whisper>Of course :)
07:02<Ethereal_Whisper>Right now I'm trying to build my first SLH
07:03<Eddi|zuHause>second rule: have priority signals in a way that once a train is on the main line, it never needs to stop
07:03<Wolf01>Eddi, I should be using a "using()" construct somewhere, but I missed it
07:03<Ethereal_Whisper> Eddi|zuHause
07:03<Ethereal_Whisper>Merger built with basic priority signaling so far
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07:04<@peter1138>Your code analyzer should tell you about a missing using()
07:04<Ethereal_Whisper>Now I just have to figure out the split
07:04<Wolf01>Ethereal_Whisper, you know double bridges like that are almost useless?
07:05<@Alberth>it preserves block length
07:05<Ethereal_Whisper>Really? I've always built with the philosophy of always doubling bridges/tunnels (unless it's right before a pickup station such as a primary that produces 2 kinds of cargo, then it doesn't matter)
07:05<Wolf01>Alberth, only if trains slow down
07:05*peter1138 grumbles about signals being too close
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not really a fan of 2-tile signals
07:06<@Alberth>also if they are close after each other
07:06<@Alberth>but a bridge should be long enough to contain an entire train then
07:06<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, I think that the GC is disposing all those vectors I create to calculate things
07:06<@Alberth>peter1138: +1
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i don't think your problem is with the GC
07:07<Wolf01>It only tells me about "small object heap allocation"
07:07<@Alberth>Ethereal_Whisper: Priority length seems a bit short
07:08<Wolf01>My problem is with memory, because I still keep instances which could be destroyed asoon after use
07:08<Ethereal_Whisper>Alberth, it's 1950; I'm using the NUTS train set and use the "Strong" class for cargo. The basic priority seems to do okay since the strong class has very high acceleration
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>Ethereal_Whisper: i'd maybe consider having the bridge on the side line instead of the main line, but other than that, what exactly is your problem here?
07:09<@Alberth>well, it depends on how much freight it carries :p
07:09<Ethereal_Whisper>Eddi|zuHause, none really, just kind of thinking out loud in the channel
07:09<@Alberth>ah, a third andy :)
07:10<@peter1138>Wolf01, which code analyzer do you use?
07:10<Wolf01>VS default one
07:11<Ethereal_Whisper> so you think something like this for the merge?
07:11<Ethereal_Whisper>(I'll extend the merger onto the southern track, I just realized it's shorter than TL
07:12<@Alberth>not sure that merger would work
07:12<@Alberth>at least for balancing between the lines
07:12<Ethereal_Whisper>Yeah, it's not balanced
07:13<@peter1138>That's not code analysis
07:13<@Alberth>but not sure how to do this stuff, I typically just add a junction directly at the main line
07:14<@peter1138>It's all on the Analyze menu.
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: a profiler is dynamic, meaning it watches the code as it runs. a code analysis is static, meaning it looks at the code without running it
07:14<@peter1138>Alt-F11 by default apparently.
07:14<@Alberth>but given that I use breakdowns, it doesn't matter much
07:15<Wolf01>I use the code analisys sometimes, but usually it tells me only if I implement an interface twice or if I hide a base class method
07:19<Ethereal_Whisper> I suppose I'll have to roll like that... I don't think it's useful to double the west-south bridge at the moment
07:22<Wolf01>Now it just tells me to make the Dispose() methods sealed and to call it with true or false to dispose managed resources
07:22<@Alberth>Don't you connect in both directions, ie outgoing from the sideline both to NE and SW ?
07:23<@peter1138>"Warning: EnsureLocalDisposalRule: This disposable local is not guaranteed to be disposed of before the method returns. The solution: Use a 'using' statement or surround the local's usage with a try/finally block."
07:24<Ethereal_Whisper>Alberth, that particular side line is only a 2-way since it's the first hub of the game. North turns right to go east to the drop station, west turns left to go south back to the pickup station
07:24<@peter1138>(That's with gendarme within monodevelop, though)
07:24<Wolf01>Warning: Modify 'GameObject.Dispose()' so that it calls Dispose(true), then calls GC.SuppressFinalize on the current object instance ('this' or 'Me' in Visual Basic), and then returns.
07:24<Wolf01>I have some of these
07:25<Wolf01>And I forgot to dispose 2 timers... but the object with the timers is not disposed while playing, so it wasn't that
07:27<Wolf01>Also this Warning: Remove IDisposable from the list of interfaces implemented by 'Tank' and override the base class Dispose implementation instead.
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08:36<Wolf01>Ok, seem that now the GC uses are really reduced, time to move on another thing
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09:19<Ethereal_Whisper>131 trains by 1959
09:19<Ethereal_Whisper>I'm slacking
09:36<@Alberth>many of my games never get that far :)
09:39<Ethereal_Whisper>My quad track main line is working extremely well :)
09:48<supermop_>good morning
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10:21<Wolf01>What. Is. The. Point. Of. Writing. Generic. Functions. If. "T". Is. Not. Accepted. As. Cast. ..
10:22*Wolf01 goes to play with water to calm down
10:22*Ethereal_Whisper offers Wolf01 a balloon
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12:05<Wolf01>A question pops out... how do you use the decorator pattern in c#? I can't even make an example to work
12:15<Wolf01>Do you need to decorate a base class on-the-fly? Because if you even try to pass it to another function you lose the decorated methods (you should pass with the base class interface as type because decorators could be used in any order and you don't know which is the last one)
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12:35<supermop_>do frogs say quak in german?
12:35<Wolf01>Bah, all I understood about the decorator design pattern is that it acts like the logistics part of a factory, you don't use the logistics part, and you just trash the box after it arrived to your home, you just need the content
12:38<frosch123>supermop_: yes, ducks and frogs are the same here
12:40<frosch123>s/are/do/ ?
12:41<frosch123> <- supermop_: polente
12:45<Wolf01> <- polenta :D
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12:54<andythenorth>is it done yet?
12:54<Wolf01>What, life on Earth?
12:55<andythenorth>or NRT?
12:55<andythenorth>or Road Hog?
12:55<Wolf01>Tank has priority, I need to put that in CV
12:56<Wolf01>(55 hours of work this week)
12:56<andythenorth>that’s like a job
12:56<andythenorth>is it done yet? o_O
12:56<Wolf01>About 20%, yes
12:57<andythenorth>I have 3.5 trams left to draw
12:57<Wolf01>There are tiles, tanks, tanks can move and shot, projectiles can break tiles and kill enemy tanks
12:57<Wolf01>Everything done by hand.
12:58<Wolf01>Framework just puts in the table the math and drawing functions and input handling
12:59<Wolf01>I need to declare tile types as flags
13:00<Wolf01>Nope... still don't know if concrete or bricks wall
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13:03<Wolf01>Tile knows the projectiles which can damage it...
13:03<Wolf01>But I would like to store it in projectile, but there's no distinction between tiles, it could even be wood
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13:04<Wolf01>Eh... tile types are strings, weird old code
13:07<andythenorth>could do with more TL;DR
13:08<andythenorth>“Write blog posts that are easy to delete” :D
13:11<Wolf01>I need NotTileTypes
13:12<Wolf01>Types are basically 4... TileVariations?
13:13<Wolf01>And what if I want to extend it with modding?
13:17<andythenorth>what do the tiles ‘do'
13:18<Wolf01>Just obstacles and buffs
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13:18<Wolf01>A road tile makes you go faster, a bush tile can hide an enemy tank
13:18<andythenorth>do they have different behaviours?
13:18<Wolf01>Wall tiles can be destroyed if you have the right projectile
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13:19<andythenorth>are the behaviours determined by the tile, or by the other objects (tank, projectile, enemy tank)
13:19<Wolf01>And water tiles can't be passed by tanks but you can shot over them
13:19<Wolf01>Eh, a combination
13:19<andythenorth>do you have specific object code on the tank, projectiles etc?
13:20<andythenorth>or do you have a single game loop?
13:20<Wolf01>Tiles tells what to do, tank/projectile how to do
13:20<Wolf01>Each object has it's own code
13:21<Wolf01>And there can be different types of the same object
13:21<andythenorth>[without knowing anything more about it]…I would just give each tile a flag
13:21<andythenorth>and the objects have to know which flags exist, and behave accordingly
13:21<andythenorth>or you can define interfaces, and ducktype it
13:21<andythenorth>but that’s a bit….frameworky
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13:23<andythenorth>the object knows which tile it’s in…by collision detection? Or by looking in the array?
13:24<Wolf01>In collision detection, I could pass a closure to the collider to tell what to do with both tile and projectile
13:25<andythenorth>that’s beyond my pay grade :)
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13:25<andythenorth>you need to remove / change state for both objects I guess
13:25<supermop_>what was the company that made N scale BR stuff in the 90s?
13:25<supermop_>something like that
13:25<andythenorth>Lima, Graham Farish
13:26<Wolf01>I have some stuff from LIMA
13:26<supermop_>maybe i'll try a shunting game
13:26<frosch123>isn't lima the singer from neverending story?
13:26<supermop_>but i need wagons shorter than the MK3 set i have from 1997
13:26<frosch123>close enough :)
13:27<andythenorth>AV program needs to update :(
13:27<andythenorth>I never trust AV updates, it’s such a perfect attack vector
13:27<supermop_>anattack vector program needs to update?
13:28<supermop_>andythenorth: whats good cute BR era rolling stock? something that looks like it rolled out of iron horse preffered
13:28<andythenorth>supermop_: N scale?
13:28<supermop_>to be shunted by a rail blue 08
13:29<andythenorth>I should find my brother’s in a my parents’ loft
13:29<supermop_>like the ore hoppers
13:29<andythenorth>you want a bunch around this length
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13:30<supermop_>did they really keep using 2 axel trucks that late over there?
13:30<andythenorth>tanker, cement tanker, speedlink van, speedlink open, brake van, steel carrier
13:30<andythenorth>that’s a shunting game right there
13:30<andythenorth>and yes
13:31<supermop_>meat van
13:32<supermop_>the couplers look so eggregious on these little wagons
13:32<supermop_>weak pound means i should buy up
13:32<supermop_>unless it's stronger than last week
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13:34<V453000>github down?
13:35<supermop_>pikka should have 3d printed N gauge pineapples to sell as fundraiser
13:35<andythenorth>DynDNS is getting DDoed
13:35<andythenorth>Github is patchy
13:35<andythenorth>also other things
13:36<andythenorth>dunno if they do international postage though
13:36<andythenorth>supermop_: you still in NYC?
13:36<supermop_>haha "british industrial sand"
13:36<supermop_>dad's in manchester on business atm though - if the post was fast enough he might catch it
13:37<supermop_>but then he'd have to mail them to nyc domestic anyway
13:38<Wolf01> I had this one from LIMA, but I think it's in pieces now, if even still at home
13:38<Wolf01>Different livery but same set
13:40<andythenorth>Wolf01: you had the UK engine?
13:40<andythenorth>I had the car wagon, always wanted the ramp
13:41<supermop_>renumbering those so they didn't all say 918 would be a paint
13:41<Wolf01>But I think it was a DB engine, at least from my memory
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13:45<andythenorth>supermop_: also those rinky-dink little wagons are annoying
13:45<andythenorth>just aesthetically
13:45<supermop_>hard to couple?
13:46<andythenorth>I can reship UK stuff to you if you need to, but you’ll get customs charges
13:46<andythenorth>I assume
13:46*Wolf01 goes full pizza
13:47<supermop_>customs usually not bad from uk
13:47<supermop_>was nice when i worked for a british company that sent containers to new york fortnightly
13:48<supermop_>throw any ebay purchases from around EU in the container - free shipping
13:50<supermop_>still seems like brio would be the best approach
13:53<andythenorth>magnets are quite strong :)
13:53<andythenorth>hard to uncouple ;)
13:53<andythenorth>hmm no good forums today
14:01<supermop_>andythenorth: electromagnetic brio?
14:02<supermop_>yeah fora not too exciting
14:04<supermop_>i wonder, while model MUs don't have distributed power
14:04<supermop_>beyond cost i mean
14:05<andythenorth>you mean propulsion? Or power pickup?
14:05<supermop_>my 158 has only 1 car powered, but whats to stop me from buying 4 sets and running only the powered cars in a rake
14:06<supermop_>4x motors drawing 1/4 the power each shouldn't be a problem
14:06<andythenorth>you don’t gain much that you wouldn’t gain by wiring all the dummy cars for pickup
14:06<supermop_>i guess you lose seeing the little seats in the windows
14:07<supermop_>158 dummy car is so light, tends to derail when leading
14:07<andythenorth>when I was a kid I used to dual motor trains
14:08<andythenorth>buy two, cut the chassis in half, glue the parts to get a twin-motor and a dumy
14:08<andythenorth>in retrospect that wasn’t a gain, compared to double heading them :P
14:08<supermop_>for added power?
14:08<andythenorth>for added power
14:09<andythenorth>but actually the problem is usually power pickup
14:09<andythenorth>and powered wheels have insulating traction tyres
14:09<andythenorth>so would have been better to have two engines with one motor each, and wire them together
14:09<andythenorth>but the main thing was MOAR POWER
14:10<supermop_>put these in every wagon
14:10<supermop_>conducting emu style couplers
14:12<andythenorth>is HEQS
14:14<supermop_>capsule toys?
14:14<andythenorth>pretty much
14:15<andythenorth>“HEAVY EQUIPMENT"
14:15*andythenorth should do some OTTD
14:15<supermop_>shapeways -> etsy -> sell meatspace andy grfs
14:16<andythenorth>that’s more for V453000
14:16<supermop_>"i can't figure out how to fit my HO scale Bulk terminal in my living room!"
14:16<andythenorth>V453000 should print the BRIX trains
14:16<supermop_>the box says "site unsuitable!"
14:16<V453000>maybe eventually :P first need to actually finish them
14:19<supermop_>not many model shops left in manhattan
14:20<supermop_>unless you want to pay out the nose at a boutique that imports obscure gundam models
14:23<supermop_>hmmmm... i'd buy a BR large logo gundam
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14:35<supermop_>firs iron ore mine has no snow
14:36<andythenorth>FIRS iron ore mine has 99 problems
14:36<ST2>already only with 2 digits? that's good :D
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14:38<supermop_>if you're having snowline problems i feel bad for you son
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14:38<supermop_>also has green grass in non-temperate climes
14:39<andythenorth>that’s known :)
14:39<supermop_>need some pixel pushing?
14:39<andythenorth>needs a new one drawn
14:40<supermop_>whole new mine?
14:40<supermop_>using firs/chips style buildings?
14:41<andythenorth>whole new mine
14:41<andythenorth>Dan has drawn it twice already
14:41<andythenorth>but neither version really worked
14:42<supermop_>non square layout?
14:43*andythenorth should play a game
14:43<andythenorth>need a GS :)
14:45<andythenorth>welshdragon speak any welsh?
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14:52<andythenorth>Alberth: had any GS inspiration? o_O
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15:07<supermop>hmm chips tiles could use some snow
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15:10<andythenorth>I chose not to :)
15:10<@Alberth>not yet
15:10<supermop>no snow in england
15:10<andythenorth>they are very efficiently cleaned :P
15:11<supermop>amazing how the staff got all of the slush out of the crevasse in the cobblestones even on top of this snowy mountain
15:11<supermop>i can see where all my infrastructure maintenance money is going
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15:20<andythenorth>2 of 5 trams left to do
15:21<andythenorth>supermop: 1 of the pax trams is Melbourne, 2 are Japanese
15:21<andythenorth>you wouldn’t know at TTD scale mind
15:21<andythenorth>the Brit theme has kind of collapsed for trams
15:22<supermop_>use HK?
15:22<supermop_>i guess melboune is the defacto standard bearer of commonwealth trams
15:23<supermop_>but they never had double decker trams there, which seems essentially british practice to me
15:23<supermop_>between london and hk
15:23<supermop_>blackpool double deck?
15:24<supermop_>melbourne tramways seem to embody the long dead north american systems
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15:28<andythenorth>there were plenty of british trams to draw
15:28<andythenorth>but they make no sense in game
15:33<supermop_>aw man my 20 rake of sand up this mountain stopped at signal on incline for steam hauled empty ore train
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15:45<Stannis>Could we get an admin on Server 1, Blue is being a dick and the bot is broken.
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16:28<supermop>buying new steam in the 60s to save $
16:29<supermop>hmm one vulcan not quite enough to pull 6 tile container train
16:30<supermop>will do no more than 150 kmh after about 100 tiles of flat, straight track
16:30<supermop>much of that in the 130-140 range
16:30<Ethereal_Shiver>Put a second power unit at the back maybe?
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16:32<supermop_>two 4 tile trains probably better for now
16:34<supermop_>nothing else on this line yet, so no need to run at 160kmh for now
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16:35<Ethereal_Shiver>My game currently has 207 trains so that would make me lose my shit
16:36<supermop_>i will probably switch to the slower but stronger gridiron when that comes out anyway so not going to timttable this one yet
16:37<andythenorth>supermop: the Electra is kind of crippled eh?
16:37<supermop_>too skint for wires
16:37<supermop_>i use it sometimes though
16:38<Ethereal_Shiver>I'm currently figuring out what kind of station to build here
16:38<supermop_>144 is fine for me, but yeah it's not as powerful as you'd hope
16:38<Ethereal_Shiver>All I know so far is that I've given it 6 platforms
16:38<supermop_>Ethereal_Shiver: too many?
16:38<Ethereal_Shiver>It's a 1024x1024 map
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16:40<supermop_>i typically would only use 6 platforms if i had a train arriving every 3-5 days from each direction
16:40<Ethereal_Shiver>Well, this one has 10
16:41<supermop_>only 3-4 of those tracks are currently occupied though?
16:41<Ethereal_Shiver>The traffic comes in waves and it merges with a very busy station
16:42<Ethereal_Shiver>I'm using a quad track ML so it's really just 5 platforms per line
16:42<Ethereal_Shiver>Originally it was 3/3; I expanded it since it was getting close to capacity, but I haven't been sending it additional traffic just yet
16:43<Ethereal_Shiver>I think 5/5 is overkill though. I've discovered that in practice, 4 platforms serving 1 track is just about the most you'll ever need. The 5th is in case I get blocking issues since the exit line yields right of way to the other station it's merging with
16:52<supermop_>andythenorth: why does it cost more to build a builder's yard than a hardware store?
16:53<supermop_>the hardware store also accepts goods, and is only 1 tile, so it's arguably a better deal
16:53<andythenorth>dunnno :)
16:58<andythenorth>maybe a bug?
16:58<supermop_>bit early in the game to drop that kind of cash funding a black hole anyway
16:59*andythenorth bed
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17:09<supermop_>damn just bought 7 little cumbraes the month before marstein was released
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17:38<Ethereal_Shiver>Upgrading 260 locomotives... my bankroll is screaming in pain
17:39<Ethereal_Shiver>ML is jammed as fuck
17:41<Ethereal_Shiver>That cost about $8 million
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20:11<welshdragon>Morning, Is there a way to tell YAPF to prefer through platforms over terminus ones?
20:12<welshdragon>Want to avoid waypoints at all costs
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---Logclosed Sat Oct 22 00:00:10 2016