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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-10-22

---Logopened Sat Oct 22 00:00:10 2016
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03:01<@Alberth>hi hi
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03:11<andythenorth>o/
03:12<@Alberth>o/
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03:43<@Alberth>such quietness :)
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05:08<andythenorth>quietness such
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05:23<frosch123>moi
05:25<@Alberth>o/
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05:26<@Alberth>andythenorth: Valuables in Buildwas open tram?
05:27<andythenorth>Alberth: why not? :D
05:28<andythenorth>it’s a side effect of ‘open trams are the default for unknown cargos'
05:28<@Alberth>:)
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05:37<welshdragon>Morning, Is there a way to tell YAPF to prefer through platforms over termini ones?
05:38<frosch123>yapf prefers platforms that fit the train length
05:39<frosch123>so maybe make the terminus ones one tile longer
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05:56<welshdragon>or make the trains 2x longer? ;)
06:00<Eddi|zuHause>you should prefer shorter trains rather than longer trains
06:02<Eddi|zuHause>alternatively, you could just skip this station in the orders (without non-stop), so as long as there is no path around it, trains will take the through platforms and stop there (forming an implicit order)
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09:51<supermop>yo
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11:13<Wolf01>o/
11:22<supermop>yo
11:22<@Alberth>o/
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11:51<Wolf01>Quak
11:52<frosch123>lo
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12:38<Wolf01>o/
12:44<sim-al2>\o/
12:50<andythenorth>wolf cat
12:51<Wolf01>CatDog
12:52<andythenorth>@seen pikka
12:52<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 1 day, 4 hours, 3 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <Pikka> why is 90 too small? That's more than two rail coaches
12:52<Wolf01>Today I took a pause... I don't know if I resist until tomorrow XD
12:52<andythenorth>we have wolf frog dragon, but no bird
12:52<andythenorth>also…where is cat? o_O
12:53<Wolf01>Cat is a lie
12:53<Wolf01>Or it was cake?
12:53<andythenorth>cake is lie
12:53<andythenorth>cat is truth
12:54<andythenorth>probably cat http://cousinsvenslarder.tumblr.com/image/151695426005
12:54<Wolf01>Ceiling cat
12:56<andythenorth>Wolf01: resist tanks, or resist NRT?
12:56<Wolf01>Both, no development weekend, I worked too much this week
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12:57<Wolf01>The problem is: will I return to work on it monday?
12:57*andythenorth must draw tramz
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13:42<Ethereal_Shiver>LL5RR is enough gap between directions for a TL3 game right?
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13:54<asie>Does anyone have contact with the OpenTTD DS developers/
13:54<asie>Looking into the technical aspects of making a 3DS port, seeing as that platform has a lot more power and it could be actually viable
13:55<Ethereal_Shiver>asie, the people who might would probably be in #openttd.dev (though most are probably in here too, so idk)
13:55<@Alberth>do we have such a thing?
13:55<asie>There was one, years ago.
13:55<@Alberth>likely it has a forum thread then
13:55<@Alberth>you could try a PM to the author
13:56<asie>mhm, thanks
13:56<@Alberth>#openttd.dev is moslt for review discussions, mostly unused now
13:56<asie>one thing that worries me, though, is that the 3DS total screen surface is *not* a rectangle
13:56<asie>it's 400x240 on top, 320x240 on bottom
13:56<asie>this introduces some complications
13:56<@Alberth>how nice :p
13:57<asie>i could just make it a 320x480 screen but then valuable estate is lost
13:57<@Alberth>how did they manage that?
13:57<asie>it does have two screens
13:57<asie>it's not particularly hard to have two screens of different aspect ratios
13:57<@Alberth>ah, right
13:57<asie>but i don't think OTTD is ready for that case
13:57<@Alberth>you can do MP :p
13:58<@Alberth>or make a video driver with two output screens, perhaps
13:58<asie>yes, that could work
13:58<asie>i'll probably look into how the DS port did it, then ignore most of the advice as instead of 4MB of RAM I have about 16 times that to use
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14:21<@Alberth>I was thinking to add non-movables like the radio transmitter to the map, but I can't see a way to add or remove them
14:21<@Alberth>it's not a hard limit, but you can play by your own rules anyway :)
14:21<@Alberth>and as first experiment perhaps not so bad
14:22<Ethereal_Shiver>Can I do this, or is this merger not valid? http://i.imgur.com/Isle9ur.png
14:24<@Alberth>my guess it would block lines
14:25<Ethereal_Shiver>Well, it's a direct copy of this priority merger: https://wiki.openttdcoop.org/images/c/cb/Standard_prio.PNG I'm just wondering if I can double use the track with the combo and exit signal for both tracks
14:25<Ethereal_Shiver>Or if I have to build a separate one
14:25<@Alberth>ie a train at the closest main line track would block a train at the furthest side line
14:25<Ethereal_Shiver>Well, "blocking" is a way to put it, since it's a priority merger, I guess
14:26<@Alberth>there is no signal from the end of detection track to both main lines
14:26<@Alberth>so they act the same, I think
14:28<Ethereal_Shiver>I'll test it
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14:30<@Alberth>trains at one main line, and at the opposite side line :)
14:31<@Alberth>or even 1 train, you can just stop it on the detection area
14:32<Ethereal_Shiver>Oh I get you now
14:32<Ethereal_Shiver>Yeah, sounds like it would
14:33<@Alberth>move one of the merge points, so you can have 2 detection tracks after each other?
14:34<Wolf01>Oh, presignal contraptions :D
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14:35<@Alberth>:)
14:36<Ethereal_Shiver>I suppose it doesn't matter exactly where I put them, so this is valid enough http://i.imgur.com/8jCl6tv.png
14:36<Wolf01>You'll end up with a full touring complete calculator in a 4196 map in no time1024*4
14:36<@Alberth>I always somewhat wonder if making main lines different in height would be helpful
14:36<@Alberth>that would work
14:37<Wolf01>Do you know what could be helpful? Eddi suggestion about elevated tracks
14:37<@Alberth>why don't you make the main lines straight?
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14:37<Ethereal_Shiver>Well, height difference in crossing is always helpful, but in practice, building bridges/tunnels on the sidelines is what I find better, because they're the ones you care less about
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14:38<Ethereal_Shiver>Alberth, you mean make it L_L5R_R instead of LL5RR?
14:38<@Alberth>if _ means space, yes
14:39<@Alberth>2 tiles spaces, actually, by the looks of it
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14:39<Ethereal_Shiver>Yeah, L_L5R_R means this: http://i.imgur.com/DNNqjIS.png
14:39<@Alberth>what I mean is build the entire side lines 1 tile higher
14:40<@Alberth>http://i.imgur.com/8jCl6tv.png <-- that needs 2 tiles for straight main lines
14:40<Ethereal_Shiver>I'm going to restart another game later (maybe play multiplayer actually now that I'm comfortable with building ML's that are bigger than double track
14:44<@Alberth>or build one main line 1 tile higher than the other
14:47<Ethereal_Shiver>Higher as in elevation?
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14:49<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/a/53hGo this won't work?
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14:54<@Alberth>Wolf01: so what happens if there is a train at one main line, and at the opposite side line?
14:54<Wolf01>Note: PBS
14:55<@Alberth>at the side line? or at the detection?
14:55<Wolf01>Oh, that, you meant line 2 blocking line 4
14:55<@Alberth>yes
14:56<@Alberth>I have no doubt priority makes the main line go through :)
14:56<Wolf01>At least 2 and 3 don't block themselves
14:57<Wolf01>I just fixed one of the problema of the first picture linked :P
14:57<@Alberth>ah, so it had even more problems than I thought :)
15:02<Wolf01>This was one of the cases where a PBS-preignal was needed, as 1 or 4 could be blocked by any other, but still with PBS-presignals 2 and 3 could block both 1 and 4
15:02<Wolf01>The only solution is to split the priority
15:03<Wolf01>It solves all the problems ;)
15:03<@Alberth>except the space problem :p
15:03<Wolf01>Plenty of space in a 4096 map
15:04<@Alberth>never tried that, I'd get lost :p
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15:04<@Alberth>1K x 256 is fun :)
15:05<@Alberth>although no useful way to get to the other side, before 2000 or so
15:05<@Alberth>not sure how fast NUTS is
15:06<@Alberth>maybe it has fast enough engines sooner
15:09<Ethereal_Shiver>Alberth, NUTS has some good options, though in practice I almost always end up using the "strong" class of trains
15:09<Ethereal_Shiver>They have enough acceleration to not need long priority merges so your side lines don't get backed up
15:09<@Alberth>medium is faster at long stretches
15:09<Ethereal_Shiver>Yeah
15:09<Ethereal_Shiver>The "fast" class is kinda meh
15:10<Ethereal_Shiver>I don't like using it for cargo
15:10<@Alberth>fast isn't faster enough, due to less power
15:10<Ethereal_Shiver>It would be a good class of trains if you played with a low amount of industries but that's really about it
15:10<@Alberth>I have had cases where medium was actually faster then fast
15:11<Ethereal_Shiver>What TL do you usually play with?
15:11<@Alberth>but then I use freight multipliers :p
15:11<@Alberth>euhm, varies between 5 and 8 or so
15:12<Ethereal_Shiver>Ah yeah, fast is pretty garbage longer than 4
15:12<Ethereal_Shiver>Takes half the map to get up to speed
15:12<@Alberth>likely it's not even consistent at the network :p
15:13<@Alberth>I don't have packed lines, as stuff may break down, so I need space to not block the entire network
15:13<Ethereal_Shiver>Ah, I play with breakdowns off
15:13<Ethereal_Shiver>I end up with a lot of depots I call "upgrade depots" though
15:13<@Alberth>oh, I also do servicing
15:14<@Alberth>which means trains go in pretty much any direction you can imagine
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15:14<@Alberth>so I built junctions that trains can go in any direction they want
15:14<@Alberth>which also means I can just add new connections without worrying whether the destination is reachable
15:14<Ethereal_Shiver>Vast majority of my junctions are only 2-way by design
15:16<Ethereal_Shiver>I'll just build a different SL nearby which sort of makes it 3-way sort of
15:16<Ethereal_Shiver>Lol
15:16<@Alberth>works if you don't do servicing
15:17<@Alberth>I should code a newgrf so I have always fast maglev, then I can do experiments with a fast back bone where you connect to, for all cargo
15:18<@Alberth>sort of centralized general transport service
15:19<@Alberth>cargo-dist between all industries would be trivial :p
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15:32<andythenorth>single tile trains
15:32<andythenorth>hmm, is single tile optimum?
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>no
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>efficiency of a train line is dependent on the ratio between capacity of a train to the distance between the start of the train and the start of the next train on the line. so high acceleration and long trains are more efficient
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15:39<Eddi|zuHause>while efficiency of a junction benefits from shorter trains
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>because there are better gaps to slip in
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>so what's optimum for your network depends on how many junctions you have
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>and if you get to an area where you have only junctions and no straight tracks, to get even close to where single tile would be optimal, you should better consider road vehicles
15:42<andythenorth>1 tile trains waste a lot of tiles to red signals?
15:42<andythenorth>so capacity per tile is lower?
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>not only that
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>when a train is stopped at a red signal, because there is a train ahead, it then starts accelerating slowly, so the end gap when both trains are at full speed is much longer than signal distance
15:43<andythenorth>how do we define efficiency? Utilisation per tile of track?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>more acceleration decreases this distance
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>capacity per time at a waypoint/station
15:44<@Alberth>amount of cargo / time unit
15:44<andythenorth>if the goal was simply to move 1m tonnes of coal in least time, would the same efficiency rules hold?
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>yes
15:45<@Alberth>1m looks sufficient like a continuous stream
15:45<@Alberth>ie 1t would be different
15:45<andythenorth>if the goal was adjusted to give a bonus for coal delivered earlier, and penalise coal delivered later…would the same rules hold?
15:46*andythenorth is trying to find the relation between transport efficiency (larger is better) and production efficiency (1 piece flow, or close to 1 piece usually wins out)
15:46<@Alberth>depends on bonuses and penalties, I think
15:47<Wolf01>I'm wondering which plug I will get for the DC adapter for the lego lithium battery pack
15:47<@Alberth>ie if you have to drive twice or wait a long time, high bonus and low penalty makes driving twice useful
15:47<Eddi|zuHause>you're running into a john-nash-problem there. where if each cargopacket were to try to optimise its own result individually, the efficiency of the whole network goes down
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>the "absolute" optimal solution is a fully timetabled network where no junction ever has a collision (no train is ever waiting at a red signal). and then you try to make the trains as long as possible
15:50*andythenorth compares the inventory in each case
15:51<andythenorth>for transport, inventory (capital tied up) is engines and people; land and wagons are approximately fixed
15:51<andythenorth>for production, inventory is materials and land
15:52<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea what you're trying to say
15:52<andythenorth>efficient factories make for inefficient transport, and vice versa
15:52<andythenorth>IRL
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15:53<andythenorth>efficient factory delivers 1 unit sooner, to minimise inventory and get cashflow faster
15:53<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like, if a factory tries to streamline its process so that it doesn't have to store raw materials, it puts more stress on the transport to get the raw materials there in time?
15:53<andythenorth>efficient transport builds larger batches, minimising cost of locomotion and people
15:53<andythenorth>yes
15:54<andythenorth>this is why ‘lean’ production is such a thing with books and consultants and so on, and not just business as usual
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>luckily, this is a transport simulation, not a production simulation
15:54<andythenorth>yair
15:54<andythenorth>TL;DR
15:54*andythenorth uses 5 tile trains usually
15:55<@Alberth>I often use shorter trains
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>i tend towards longer trains
15:55<@Alberth>although I typically do put down 5 tile stations to avoid having to change them later
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>like, 8 tile trains and 12 tile signal distance
15:56<@Alberth>8 tiles doesn't work in 1870 :p
15:57<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i ever started before 1920
15:57<@Alberth>iron horse starts earlier :)
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>train sets, ship sets, road vehicle sets... all need to match
15:58<@Alberth>road hog has nice tramz
15:58<@Alberth>no need for other road
15:58<andythenorth>1900 is about right for starting with my sets
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>that didn't exist the last time i played :p
15:58<andythenorth>they’ll go back to 1870, but slow
15:59<@Alberth>1860 iirc, was the game report, but I guessed that was a bit too early :)
16:00<@Alberth>I guess I get new engines around 1900?
16:00<andythenorth>yup
16:00<andythenorth>or so
16:02<@Alberth>not sure what to think of that; it's nice not to have to select a new engine all the time, but on the other hand the entire network now runs 1 or 2 models
16:02<@Alberth>one for cargo and one for pax
16:03<andythenorth>‘one obvious choice’ :)
16:03<andythenorth>it mixes up a bit when the electric train arrives
16:03<andythenorth>joker in the pack
16:04<Eddi|zuHause>i like diversity
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>if there is only ever one "choice", i get bored
16:05<@Alberth>plenty of train sets for that :)
16:06<@Alberth>I care more about tracks and cargo than about engines or wagons
16:06<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it's also not good to get drowned in choices :p
16:07<@Alberth>it needs a "do random suggestion" button :p
16:07<andythenorth>no choice at all? o_O
16:07<@Alberth>although not completely random probably
16:08<@Alberth>you can do NUTS and play with a single engine the entire game :)
16:09<@Alberth>model life is 255 years :)
16:09<andythenorth>the way I look at it, you’ve already chosen to build a train, not a narrow gauge train, a truck, tram, plane, ship or pipeline
16:09<andythenorth>so the engine is just a detail :P
16:09<Eddi|zuHause>but sometimes the details are the interesting bits
16:10<andythenorth>choose different wagons :)
16:10<andythenorth>there are lots
16:10<@Alberth>yeah, that might be better, different engines doesn't work well
16:11<@Alberth>maybe have different engines but with same stats :p
16:11<andythenorth>random graphics :)
16:11<@Alberth>just another kind of wagon :p
16:11<Eddi|zuHause>there's a reason why CETS has around 5 engines per generation, and the generations usually overlap a bit
16:12<andythenorth>Alberth: what year did you reach? o_O
16:12<@Alberth>1893 now
16:13<@Alberth>and a bit bored with the game, BB gives useless goals
16:13<andythenorth>sometimes
16:13<andythenorth>I quit my last few BB games
16:14<@Alberth>for me, a big part of the fun is puzzling how to make the network fit and work under heavy load
16:15<@Alberth>but BB spreads it all evenlay over the map :p
16:15<@Alberth>*evenly
16:15<@Alberth>although you can re-use some parts sometimes
16:16<@Alberth>I tried a maglev game for a change, and it's different; distance is irrelevant
16:17<@Alberth>but they move too fast to get any load on the network :p
16:17<andythenorth>some kind of network bee?
16:17<andythenorth>confined space bee?
16:17<andythenorth>bee hive?
16:18<@Alberth>yeah, I have been pondering to steer BB towards re-use (or not) of existing networks
16:18<@Alberth>ie do a quick check how much track there is between source and destination
16:19<@Alberth>it could probably also check for hills that way
16:20<andythenorth>force contiguous networks?
16:20<andythenorth>probably makes building things like junctions too hard
16:20<@Alberth>what does that mean?
16:20<andythenorth>all track must be connected
16:21<@Alberth>oh, I drag a long piece of otherwise unused tracks all over the map?
16:21<andythenorth>all nodes in same graph, in graph terms
16:21<andythenorth>would require some substantial patch
16:21<andythenorth>Eddi reminded me that Railroad Tycoon worked that way
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16:22<@Alberth>I have been thinking about a way to allow expressing positions in a somewhat simple way, and hook that up to eg payment, or construction
16:22<@Alberth>or industry creation
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>it would probably work to have new goals generated near existing infrastructure
16:23<@Alberth>likely there are other nice tricks you can do with positions
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>pushing the borders slightly outwards over time
16:23<@Alberth>Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that was my estimate too
16:24<@Alberth>I had the idea to put down transmitters say every 5 tiles as a border
16:24<@Alberth>it's not really a border, but it would do for the first experiment
16:25<@Alberth>however, I could not find a call to create or destroy a non-movable
16:25<@Alberth>so it might not be possible currently
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>transmitters are technically "objects"
16:26<@Alberth>yeah, but objects can't be build either, I think
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>i have no idea
16:26<@Alberth>or at least I failed to find how
16:27<@Alberth>what could work is add tracks of another company
16:27<andythenorth>can bridge over those
16:27<andythenorth>hmm
16:28<andythenorth>we need cliffs :P
16:28<@Alberth>oh, it's not about stopping you
16:28<@Alberth>it's just letting you know where the border is :p
16:28<@Alberth>ie you can fly over transmitters too
16:28*andythenorth wonders if there are bits free
16:29<andythenorth>for an allowed to build / not allowed to build flag per company
16:29<andythenorth>probably quite complex
16:29<@Alberth>"buildable" bit for all companies? no
16:29<andythenorth>maybe just limiting stations would work
16:29<@Alberth>but you don't really want to specify that per tile
16:30<@Alberth>as it's always big areas
16:30<andythenorth>I would sooner divide the map into regions, and have a cb on building a station or so
16:30<@Alberth>not paying you for transport would work :p
16:30<andythenorth>ha
16:30<andythenorth>make cdist refuse to route cargo :P
16:31<sim-al2>The support topics would be interesting
16:31<@Alberth>I had that problem in the BB game too, but it was due to a town stopping accepting goods, when I was at 96% :p
16:32<@Alberth>support?
16:32<sim-al2>Oh forum topics :p
16:34<@Alberth>likely the game will be able to tell you where you're supposed to build or connect to :p
16:37<@Alberth>"police confiscated your revenue on the transport between X and Y, as it was not approved by the central world council"
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16:38<@Alberth>or a news message "you got fined by X amount for illegal transport from A to B"
16:38<sim-al2>lol
16:39<@Alberth>hmm, that would be feasible, even
16:42<andythenorth>sanctions
16:45<@Alberth>you don't know how much you received for the transport, but just make it high enough :p
16:45<@Alberth>hmm, could that info get added to the cargo monitor?
16:46<@Alberth>theoretically, it should be possible
16:47<@Alberth>nn
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18:44<Wolf01>'night
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22:00<Ethereal_Shiver>Why do people on some multiplayer games I play build stations with 6 platforms and then have 2 trains serve it?
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22:17<+glx>easier than adding platforms later when town has grown
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22:47<sim-al2>Also on multiplayer people might log off for a few hours and then come back
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23:12<sim-al2>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a1/SNCF_Diesel_Locomotive_67552_%2816495813340%29.jpg
23:13<ST2>trains, what trains - I only see bars on the pic :P
23:19<sim-al2>The page says it's Dieppe, seems that the station closed in 1994 though :(
23:19<sim-al2>https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/231-G-558_Dieppe-Maritime.jpg
23:20<sim-al2>Seems to have been a pier station, right next to the port
23:22<sim-al2>Killed by the end of boat trains with the opening of the Channel Tunnel
23:23<sim-al2>No trace of it left because of port renovations, just a stub next to the main station
23:24<sim-al2>Although the main station is really close, easily within walking distance anyway
23:34<sim-al2>Looks like someone brought a camping trailer with them: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/65/Dieppe-Maritime_mai_1973.jpg?uselang=fr
23:53-!-drdoom [~triolus@162.216.46.76] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
---Logclosed Sun Oct 23 00:00:11 2016