| --- | Log | opened Sun Oct 23 00:00:11 2016 |
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| 03:23 | <@Alberth> | o/ |
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| 03:27 | <andythenorth> | hi |
| 03:33 | <@Alberth> | This morning I finally understood what I am missing in my games. |
| 03:34 | <@Alberth> | If you look at the game of the guy with the station rating problems, you see he is using a dense industry setting, yet he serves only a few industries |
| 03:35 | <@Alberth> | I wondered why, but then realized he is using many more primary industries |
| 03:35 | <@Alberth> | that's why he can have this big network with many trains |
| 03:35 | <@Alberth> | all transporting the same stuff |
| 03:36 | <@Alberth> | I tend to play with a lower industry density, which then means I also get few primary industries |
| 03:36 | <@Alberth> | and cannot make a big network like he has |
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| 03:42 | <andythenorth> | Alberth: what map size? |
| 03:42 | <@Alberth> | oh, very reasonable, 256x256 or 512x512 or so |
| 03:42 | <@Alberth> | I didn't check |
| 03:44 | <@Alberth> | but it fitted at the minimap without problems |
| 03:44 | <@Alberth> | or major scale reducing |
| 03:45 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8123/industry_density.png |
| 03:45 | <andythenorth> | I always use ‘high’ industry |
| 03:46 | <andythenorth> | but that wasn’t enough, so I’ve been using high custom sea values to get more industry density |
| 03:46 | <@Alberth> | ah, right :) |
| 03:46 | <andythenorth> | the map in the screenshot is silly though :) |
| 03:46 | <@Alberth> | sufficient opportunity for ships :p |
| 03:47 | <@Alberth> | but not really any major space for trains |
| 03:47 | <andythenorth> | tends towards very busy rail networks |
| 03:47 | <andythenorth> | I don’t build big junctions |
| 03:47 | <andythenorth> | and usually just 2 track lines |
| 03:47 | <@Alberth> | nor do I |
| 03:48 | <andythenorth> | but also I haven’t played a long game for quite some time :P |
| 03:48 | <@Alberth> | although connecting lines in every direction does make the junction larger |
| 03:48 | <andythenorth> | they all get boring |
| 03:49 | <@Alberth> | well, yeah, once you understand the underlying mechanics well enough for a good network, you can build forever without learning anything interesting |
| 03:50 | <andythenorth> | I also know the mechanics for Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal now |
| 03:50 | <@Alberth> | I think people that manage to play it longer look more at the result |
| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | new constraints needed |
| 03:51 | <@Alberth> | or a new objective |
| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | either |
| 03:51 | <@Alberth> | ever played the freight challenge? |
| 03:51 | <andythenorth> | no, what is it? |
| 03:52 | <@Alberth> | https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=59689 |
| 03:53 | <@Alberth> | I played it, but apparently, I missed the last step :p |
| 03:54 | * | andythenorth reading |
| 03:54 | <@Alberth> | there is also a scenario by Owen, that looks like a nice challenge, lots of water |
| 03:55 | <andythenorth> | oh freight challenge is like a puzzle |
| 03:55 | <@Alberth> | there are probably more gems in the scenarios |
| 03:55 | <@Alberth> | yeah, it is |
| 03:55 | <@Alberth> | doesn't take very long though |
| 03:55 | <@Alberth> | but ymmv |
| 03:56 | <@Alberth> | depending on how much you want to solve it :) |
| 04:00 | <andythenorth> | reminds me of 2048 for some reason :) |
| 04:02 | <@Alberth> | ah, played that for a few weeks too, until I understood how it works :) |
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| 04:02 | <@Alberth> | but it's extremely tight space in that challenge |
| 04:05 | <andythenorth> | the goal is ratings? |
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| 04:08 | <@Alberth> | I am not sure, I took the goal as "transports all stuff" |
| 04:08 | <@Alberth> | but I missed transport of the secondary industries |
| 04:08 | <@Alberth> | I'll have to try that one day :) |
| 04:10 | <andythenorth> | perhaps an ‘every town has a goal’ challenge would work |
| 04:11 | <andythenorth> | nice side effect: could choose how long to play by scaling number of towns at map gen |
| 04:12 | <@Alberth> | sort of multi-SV ? |
| 04:16 | <andythenorth> | yup |
| 04:16 | <andythenorth> | goals would vary widely |
| 04:16 | <andythenorth> | from ‘fund one industry’ to ‘maintain x transported per year' |
| 04:17 | <andythenorth> | no time limit |
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| 04:25 | <andythenorth> | new Hog |
| 04:31 | <@Alberth> | I haven't finished playing the previous one :p |
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| 05:11 | <Wolf01> | Uh... do steam locomotive arrangement 2-0-1 even exist? |
| 05:11 | <Wolf01> | o/ also |
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| 05:49 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: might be lacking tractive effort that one :P |
| 05:49 | <Wolf01> | Sorry... 2-1-0 |
| 05:50 | <Wolf01> | With articulated front truck |
| 05:54 | <Wolf01> | 4-2-0 if you use the Whyte notation |
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| 05:59 | <andythenorth> | yes they exist |
| 06:01 | <Wolf01> | Oh, ok, the Pioneer one... I should forget the axis arrangement and start to count only with the wheel arrangement, it seem more common |
| 06:03 | <Wolf01> | Or even the Berliner |
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| 06:07 | <@Alberth> | o/ |
| 06:33 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: just finished the Volvo excavator |
| 06:36 | <Wolf01> | :D |
| 06:36 | <Wolf01> | I would like to build the bucket wheel one, but no space :( |
| 06:40 | <andythenorth> | I have almost no interest in that one :) |
| 06:41 | <andythenorth> | big Technic, dunno |
| 06:41 | <andythenorth> | I want to break up the Unimog even but the kids won’t let me :P |
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| 06:42 | <@Alberth> | moin |
| 06:47 | <frosch123> | hola |
| 06:47 | <Wolf01> | Quak |
| 06:48 | <andythenorth> | Road Hog just needs checked for bugs / inconsistencies, then I can release 1.0 |
| 06:48 | <andythenorth> | so shall I abandon it? |
| 06:48 | <andythenorth> | o_O |
| 06:48 | <andythenorth> | there is precedent :P |
| 06:49 | <Wolf01> | Yes |
| 06:55 | <frosch123> | https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6517 <- new roadtype flag :) no houses allowed |
| 06:55 | <Wolf01> | Bug |
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| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | trams need that flag |
| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | also mining truck roads |
| 06:57 | <Wolf01> | I'm trying to make a little tender for my little train, but I ran out of parts... should I disassemble one of the locomotives? |
| 06:57 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: lego? |
| 06:57 | <Wolf01> | Yes |
| 06:58 | <andythenorth> | how many engines have you got? |
| 06:58 | <Wolf01> | 8 sets |
| 06:58 | <andythenorth> | yes disassemble |
| 06:58 | <andythenorth> | I like that town screenshot btw |
| 06:58 | <Wolf01> | The streamlined one or the "classic" one? |
| 06:58 | <andythenorth> | you have instructions? |
| 06:59 | <Wolf01> | Yes, but I would like to make my own train |
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| 07:01 | <andythenorth> | if you have instructions it doesn’t matter which one you disassemble :) |
| 07:01 | <andythenorth> | rebuild it later :P |
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| 07:13 | <Wolf01> | Eaters gonna eat |
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| 07:38 | <Wolf01> | Bah, not enough pieces to build locomotive + tender + wagon, I need at least 12 sets |
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| 07:43 | <@Alberth> | hmm, scale problem :) most people think in lego pieces, Wolf01 thinks in lego sets :) |
| 07:43 | <Wolf01> | I'm on another level |
| 07:43 | <@Alberth> | clearly :) |
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| 07:45 | <@Alberth> | but yeah, I can see that to be useful |
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| 08:16 | * | andythenorth has run out of YT videos to watch |
| 08:19 | <frosch123> | https://xkcd.com/920/ |
| 08:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i've never had a "youtube party" |
| 08:20 | <frosch123> | i thought this channel was one |
| 08:21 | <andythenorth> | there are YT parties? :O |
| 08:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | dunno, that xkcd is the only reference i have ever seen |
| 08:22 | <andythenorth> | maybe we should play MP OpenTTD |
| 08:22 | <andythenorth> | there is time for a SV game if we set one up |
| 08:24 | <Wolf01> | http://imgur.com/a/6cWjL just finished it |
| 08:24 | <Wolf01> | No parts for tender |
| 08:24 | <andythenorth> | Christmas Train |
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| 08:25 | <Wolf01> | Emerald express |
| 08:26 | <Wolf01> | Now I have 14 spare driving wheels... |
| 08:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | then you need to take it apart again and recombine it until you have no parts leftover |
| 08:29 | <Wolf01> | It's hard to add more wheels on a 4-6-2 locomotive |
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| 08:31 | <andythenorth> | make a wagon for spare wheels |
| 08:31 | <andythenorth> | you can use wheels to make a boiler |
| 08:31 | <andythenorth> | or a tender for an oil-burner https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/50701_1012311_Qty1_3.jpg |
| 08:31 | <Wolf01> | I don't have any more truck wheels :( |
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| 08:46 | <wCPO> | How do I enable the speed up feature on a server? |
| 08:51 | <Wolf01> | It's not possible |
| 08:52 | <wCPO> | :/ Thx |
| 08:54 | <wCPO> | Can I go year x other ways than changing starting_year? |
| 08:55 | <frosch123> | you can, if you load the savegame in singleplayer |
| 08:55 | <Wolf01> | Save the game, load it in single player and cheat the year |
| 08:55 | <frosch123> | change the date via the cheats, then save and reload in multiplayer |
| 08:55 | <Wolf01> | Save it again and load the save in multiplayer |
| 08:56 | <@Alberth> | in SP you can also use the fast-forward key :) |
| 08:57 | <wCPO> | Complicated :) |
| 08:58 | <@Alberth> | in MP, all machines have to run at equal speed, which is certain not to happen with fast-forward |
| 08:59 | <@Alberth> | ie you'd have pretty much instant global desync |
| 08:59 | <wCPO> | I see. |
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| 09:07 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: I am wondering how much power M motors would have at one per wheel :) |
| 09:07 | <andythenorth> | With L motors, it’s a lot of power https://www.flickr.com/photos/andythenorth/16131716206/in/photostream/ |
| 09:07 | <andythenorth> | but a lot of $£€ |
| 09:08 | <Wolf01> | http://www.philohome.com/motors/motorcomp.htm |
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| 09:10 | <andythenorth> | the M is crap |
| 09:10 | <andythenorth> | always has been :) |
| 09:14 | <frosch123> | i only know the first one |
| 09:15 | <frosch123> | the train motor i know isn't even in the list :p |
| 09:16 | <frosch123> | https://bricker.ru/images/parts/x550b.jpg |
| 09:19 | <andythenorth> | classic |
| 09:21 | <andythenorth> | right, let’s see I can trigger any asserts in the NRT fork for Wolf01 :) |
| 09:21 | <andythenorth> | *if |
| 09:24 | <andythenorth> | no assert so far :( |
| 09:34 | <Wolf01> | Good, so removing the asserts mean they won't be triggered ;) |
| 09:36 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: all construction _seems_ to work |
| 09:36 | <andythenorth> | I haven’t tested multiple company stuff |
| 09:37 | <andythenorth> | but can’t get any asserts for roads, auto-road, tunnel, bridge, depot, or stops |
| 09:37 | <Wolf01> | Stations will build just 1st road sub type for each roadtype |
| 09:37 | <Wolf01> | Maybe depots too |
| 09:37 | <Wolf01> | Bridges should work |
| 09:37 | <andythenorth> | also dynamite and remove tools - can’t trigger anything |
| 09:38 | <Wolf01> | Remove I think just removes the old stuff, but leaves bits in m4 there |
| 09:38 | <andythenorth> | let’s see |
| 09:38 | <Wolf01> | Try using the land info tool |
| 09:39 | <andythenorth> | hmm |
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| 09:44 | * | andythenorth makes a new test grf |
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| 09:49 | <andythenorth> | “Attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 82)" |
| 09:50 | <Wolf01> | Wrong label or something |
| 09:51 | <andythenorth> | happens when there are three types in the grf |
| 09:51 | <Wolf01> | Interesting |
| 09:52 | <Wolf01> | I have no clue, I just copy/pasted from rails |
| 09:52 | <andythenorth> | http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8124/example_roadtype_3_types.grf |
| 10:00 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: ^ o_O |
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| 10:02 | <Wolf01> | I think I found the problem |
| 10:02 | <Wolf01> | if (id + numinfo > ROADTYPE_END) { |
| 10:02 | <Wolf01> | It should be ROADSUBTYPE_END |
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| 10:03 | <andythenorth> | if we can get grf loading working with multiple types, I’ll make a bunch of test cases |
| 10:09 | <Wolf01> | Patchy patch committed, and it loads |
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| 10:19 | <Wolf01> | I'll try to draw sprites from roadtypeinfo instead the hardcoded ones |
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| 10:20 | <Wolf01> | So you'll be able to replace even those |
| 10:22 | <Wolf01> | Heh, all the road_land.h stuff... |
| 10:41 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: confirmed working for me |
| 10:41 | <andythenorth> | now I need a flag to make it tram, not road |
| 10:42 | <andythenorth> | frosch123: propose a var name and number for tram/road flag? I assume it’s just a bool… |
| 10:45 | <Wolf01> | We said to use 2 different features, if road is 0x18, tram is 0x19 |
| 10:48 | <andythenorth> | ah |
| 10:48 | <andythenorth> | ok |
| 10:49 | <andythenorth> | makes sense |
| 10:49 | * | andythenorth will need a bigger nml patch |
| 10:50 | <frosch123> | yep, two features, so that ids are all separate |
| 10:52 | <Wolf01> | With one feature you would be able to define just up to 16 roadtypes (road+tram) => 15 roads and 1 tram, 15 trams 1 road, 8 roads and 8 trams |
| 10:53 | * | andythenorth wonders how not to have a lot of copy-paste nml code |
| 10:54 | <frosch123> | how do vehicles do it? |
| 10:54 | <andythenorth> | I will look, maybe there are functions |
| 10:57 | <@Alberth> | can you create or destroy an object from a NOGO script? I'd like to place and remove transmitters, but I couldn't find a call for it |
| 10:58 | <andythenorth> | @seen Zuu |
| 10:58 | <@DorpsGek> | andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, 14 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Zuu> Perhaps because it was "free" space near ground floor that you couldn't use for offices. |
| 10:59 | <frosch123> | Alberth: given that objects have no name to identify them with, i doubt :) |
| 10:59 | <@Alberth> | good idea andy, too bad it didn't fly |
| 11:01 | <@Alberth> | hmm, tiles should be able to have them, maybe that gives a clue |
| 11:03 | <@Alberth> | nope, can't ask tile type either |
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| 11:08 | <@Alberth> | ok, so not possible, and not trivial to add |
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| 11:16 | <Wolf01> | I made a mistake, somewhere |
| 11:16 | <Wolf01> | Like this one RoadTypeIdentifier roadtype_map[ROADTYPE_END][ROADSUBTYPE_END]; |
| 11:20 | <Wolf01> | uint8 *roadtypes = AllocaM(uint8, idcount); <- how do I change this one to be able to use the above one? |
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| 11:22 | <Wolf01> | I copied it from RailTypeMapSpriteGroup, but it's not the same |
| 11:22 | <frosch> | that one is the same |
| 11:22 | <frosch> | the next line changes |
| 11:23 | <frosch> | roadtypes[i] = _cur.grffile->roadtypes_map[feature_to_roadtype][buf->ReadByte()]; |
| 11:38 | <Wolf01> | Nice,, I forgot a ) or a ] somewhere in the code and now every single file has error... |
| 11:39 | <frosch> | i always forget the ; at the end of class definitions |
| 11:45 | <Wolf01> | Nice, changing a type resolved the error |
| 11:45 | <Wolf01> | Maybe it was used in some template |
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| 12:04 | <Wolf01> | Nice, GetRoadTypes(ti->tile) asserts in DrawRoadBits |
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| 12:10 | <Wolf01> | Wrong type |
| 12:15 | <Wolf01> | Ok, I can draw roadbits from roadtypeinfo now, but I don't know how to load them from grf |
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| 12:28 | <supermop> | hello |
| 12:33 | <Wolf01> | image = _road_sloped_sprites[ti->tileh - 1] + SPR_TRAMWAY_SLOPED_OFFSET; <- any idea on how I could define this in the roadtypeinfo? |
| 12:33 | <Wolf01> | Just the offset? |
| 12:36 | <frosch> | you only put the SPR_TRAMWAY_SLOPED_OFFSET into it |
| 12:36 | <frosch> | the _road_slopes_sprites stays the same for every type |
| 12:36 | <Wolf01> | Yes |
| 12:37 | <frosch> | it's similar to "base_sprites" in railtype |
| 12:38 | <Wolf01> | Single sprites are easy, but for roadbits for example I need to understand how they are handled |
| 12:39 | <frosch> | well, you may not do it exactly the same for newgrf types |
| 12:39 | <Wolf01> | Also, it's only in the hardcoded roadtypeinfo the problem, as every grf has it's own sprites |
| 12:40 | <Wolf01> | So most offset are meaningless |
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| 12:41 | <Wolf01> | Maybe they are only set to 0, because if you define more roadtypes you need to use them too |
| 12:42 | <frosch> | hmm, yeah, given that there is only one built-in road and tram type |
| 12:42 | <frosch> | maybe it's not even worth moving those constants to a table |
| 12:43 | <frosch> | just "if newgrf-defined { GetCustomRoadSrpite } else { use offsets }" |
| 12:44 | <Wolf01> | That would be cool, if I'll ever understand how to do it |
| 12:47 | <frosch> | RailTypes have UsesOverlay() |
| 12:47 | <Wolf01> | I don't think this bracnh is in sync |
| 12:48 | <Wolf01> | I don't even know how to do it |
| 12:48 | <Wolf01> | I just cloned andy's repository :P |
| 12:48 | <andythenorth> | that was a clone of openttd trunk :) |
| 12:54 | <Wolf01> | Another thing I don't really understand is tram road bits sprites |
| 12:59 | <Wolf01> | If roads have 0, 0x546, 0x545, 0x53B, 0x544, 0x534, 0x53E, 0x539..., in the code there is (roadbits)-SPR_ROAD_Y, do trambits have low number sprites? |
| 12:59 | <Wolf01> | *roadbits_sprite |
| 13:00 | <Wolf01> | image = _road_tile_sprites_1[tram] - SPR_ROAD_Y; <- "0 - 1332" what is the result? |
| 13:00 | <Wolf01> | Ok, that might not happen |
| 13:01 | <Wolf01> | But 1350 - 1332 is 18 |
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| 13:03 | <Eddi|zuHause> | what exactly are you trying to do? |
| 13:03 | <Wolf01> | Generalising the function by moving some hardcoded stuff into the roadtypeinfo |
| 13:05 | <Eddi|zuHause> | if road sprite is selected by SPR_ROAD_BASE + roadbits, then tram sprite should be selected by SPR_TRAM_BASE + trambits |
| 13:07 | <Wolf01> | I think it's because this part of the code does some weird stuff trying to hide the road sprite when there is only tram |
| 13:12 | <Eddi|zuHause> | i have no clue what you're talking about |
| 13:13 | <Wolf01> | road_cmd.cpp DrawRoadBits() |
| 13:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so, from what i gather, _road_tile_sprites_1 contains sprite IDs from the SPR_ROAD_* range |
| 13:18 | <Wolf01> | Yes |
| 13:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so this operation above calculates the offset from the raw sprite numbers |
| 13:18 | <Eddi|zuHause> | presumably to add that offset to something else later |
| 13:18 | <Wolf01> | No, it just draws in the next line |
| 13:19 | <Wolf01> | It seem to draw a terrain sprite |
| 13:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | image += (road == ROAD_NONE) ? SPR_TRAMWAY_TRAM : SPR_TRAMWAY_OVERLAY; |
| 13:19 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so first you calculate the offset, then you add that offset to _TRAM or _OVERLAY, depending on whether there should be road drawn or not |
| 13:20 | <Eddi|zuHause> | you could refactor that so that _road_tile_sprites contains the offset directly, this problably needs adjusting in the road drawing code |
| 13:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | and _road_tile_sprites_1[0] is 0 because there can't be no trackbits |
| 13:21 | <Eddi|zuHause> | so this value is never read |
| 13:21 | <Wolf01> | Or I could do every single combination like in DrawTrackBits(), but I like more the DrawRoadBits() way |
| 13:23 | <Eddi|zuHause> | @base 10 16 1332 |
| 13:23 | <@DorpsGek> | Eddi|zuHause: 534 |
| 13:28 | <Eddi|zuHause> | Wolf01: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pk7rfjl3t |
| 13:31 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe you could refactor this mapping from roadbits to sprite offsets, because it's probably needed in more places |
| 13:33 | <Eddi|zuHause> | but the mapping is perfectly logical, 1,2,4 and 8 are the single end bits, 5 and 10 are the straight roads, etc. |
| 13:35 | <Wolf01> | Ok, half of my brain understood what you are saying and even know what to do, but the other half doesn't want to collaborate |
| 13:35 | <Eddi|zuHause> | maybe you're suffering from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfYbgdo8e-8 :p |
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| 13:37 | <Wolf01> | Yes, exactly, but my halves don't disagree, one of them is just stupid as fuck |
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| 13:42 | <Wolf01> | I need to put that stupid to sleep again, he awakened some hours ago and then I wasn't able to do anytning since... |
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| 13:57 | <andythenorth> | Wolf01: you know how the sprite offsets work, yes? o_O |
| 13:57 | <andythenorth> | and then it’s doing something with adding bits |
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| 14:25 | <Wolf01> | andythenorth, yes, I know how it works, but I have some brain problems this evening |
| 14:26 | <Wolf01> | I think it's better if I sleep for half an hour |
| 14:26 | * | andythenorth has brain problems most days |
| 14:27 | <Wolf01> | Because when you are writing something and at the same time you yell "wtf am I writing, it doesn't work that way" then something is not right |
| 15:08 | <argoneus> | good evening train friends |
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| 15:21 | <V453000> | Wolf01: smart as fuck https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/5906vp/my_burner_furnace_smelting/ |
| 15:28 | <andythenorth> | this way my brain does not work |
| 15:32 | * | Wolf01 too |
| 15:37 | <andythenorth> | bit meta? http://www.qstation.org/ATSF_Pix/Wheels.jpg |
| 15:37 | <Wolf01> | Heh... put these axles on rails and roll them to destination |
| 15:42 | * | andythenorth needs to patch NML |
| 15:57 | <Wolf01> | V453000, the guy who posted the burner furnace smelter must be crazy, do you agree? ;) |
| 16:03 | <Supercheese> | Definitely |
| 16:03 | <Supercheese> | completely NUTS |
| 16:07 | <andythenorth> | bed |
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| 16:09 | <V453000> | =D |
| 16:11 | <V453000> | it's awesome, I love it |
| 16:11 | <Wolf01> | Too much thinking on it, I'm for simple solutions: 1 belt with one side ore and other side fuel |
| 16:12 | <Wolf01> | Or 2 belts and >9000 logistic bots |
| 16:13 | <V453000> | sure |
| 16:13 | <V453000> | using a simple solution is certainly totally fine as well |
| 16:17 | <@Alberth> | nn |
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| 18:57 | <Wolf01> | 'night |
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| 22:23 | <supermop> | yi |
| 22:23 | <supermop> | o |
| 22:23 | <supermop> | yo' |
| 22:30 | <sim-al2> | yo |
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| --- | Log | closed Mon Oct 24 00:00:13 2016 |
