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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-10-23

---Logopened Sun Oct 23 00:00:11 2016
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03:33<@Alberth>This morning I finally understood what I am missing in my games.
03:34<@Alberth>If you look at the game of the guy with the station rating problems, you see he is using a dense industry setting, yet he serves only a few industries
03:35<@Alberth>I wondered why, but then realized he is using many more primary industries
03:35<@Alberth>that's why he can have this big network with many trains
03:35<@Alberth>all transporting the same stuff
03:36<@Alberth>I tend to play with a lower industry density, which then means I also get few primary industries
03:36<@Alberth>and cannot make a big network like he has
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03:42<andythenorth>Alberth: what map size?
03:42<@Alberth>oh, very reasonable, 256x256 or 512x512 or so
03:42<@Alberth>I didn't check
03:44<@Alberth>but it fitted at the minimap without problems
03:44<@Alberth>or major scale reducing
03:45<andythenorth>I always use ‘high’ industry
03:46<andythenorth>but that wasn’t enough, so I’ve been using high custom sea values to get more industry density
03:46<@Alberth>ah, right :)
03:46<andythenorth>the map in the screenshot is silly though :)
03:46<@Alberth>sufficient opportunity for ships :p
03:47<@Alberth>but not really any major space for trains
03:47<andythenorth>tends towards very busy rail networks
03:47<andythenorth>I don’t build big junctions
03:47<andythenorth>and usually just 2 track lines
03:47<@Alberth>nor do I
03:48<andythenorth>but also I haven’t played a long game for quite some time :P
03:48<@Alberth>although connecting lines in every direction does make the junction larger
03:48<andythenorth>they all get boring
03:49<@Alberth>well, yeah, once you understand the underlying mechanics well enough for a good network, you can build forever without learning anything interesting
03:50<andythenorth>I also know the mechanics for Silicon Valley and NoCarGoal now
03:50<@Alberth>I think people that manage to play it longer look more at the result
03:51<andythenorth>new constraints needed
03:51<@Alberth>or a new objective
03:51<@Alberth>ever played the freight challenge?
03:51<andythenorth>no, what is it?
03:53<@Alberth>I played it, but apparently, I missed the last step :p
03:54*andythenorth reading
03:54<@Alberth>there is also a scenario by Owen, that looks like a nice challenge, lots of water
03:55<andythenorth>oh freight challenge is like a puzzle
03:55<@Alberth>there are probably more gems in the scenarios
03:55<@Alberth>yeah, it is
03:55<@Alberth>doesn't take very long though
03:55<@Alberth>but ymmv
03:56<@Alberth>depending on how much you want to solve it :)
04:00<andythenorth>reminds me of 2048 for some reason :)
04:02<@Alberth>ah, played that for a few weeks too, until I understood how it works :)
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04:02<@Alberth>but it's extremely tight space in that challenge
04:05<andythenorth>the goal is ratings?
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04:08<@Alberth>I am not sure, I took the goal as "transports all stuff"
04:08<@Alberth>but I missed transport of the secondary industries
04:08<@Alberth>I'll have to try that one day :)
04:10<andythenorth>perhaps an ‘every town has a goal’ challenge would work
04:11<andythenorth>nice side effect: could choose how long to play by scaling number of towns at map gen
04:12<@Alberth>sort of multi-SV ?
04:16<andythenorth>goals would vary widely
04:16<andythenorth>from ‘fund one industry’ to ‘maintain x transported per year'
04:17<andythenorth>no time limit
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04:25<andythenorth>new Hog
04:31<@Alberth>I haven't finished playing the previous one :p
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05:11<Wolf01>Uh... do steam locomotive arrangement 2-0-1 even exist?
05:11<Wolf01>o/ also
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05:49<andythenorth>Wolf01: might be lacking tractive effort that one :P
05:49<Wolf01>Sorry... 2-1-0
05:50<Wolf01>With articulated front truck
05:54<Wolf01>4-2-0 if you use the Whyte notation
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05:59<andythenorth>yes they exist
06:01<Wolf01>Oh, ok, the Pioneer one... I should forget the axis arrangement and start to count only with the wheel arrangement, it seem more common
06:03<Wolf01>Or even the Berliner
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06:33<andythenorth>Wolf01: just finished the Volvo excavator
06:36<Wolf01>I would like to build the bucket wheel one, but no space :(
06:40<andythenorth>I have almost no interest in that one :)
06:41<andythenorth>big Technic, dunno
06:41<andythenorth>I want to break up the Unimog even but the kids won’t let me :P
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06:48<andythenorth>Road Hog just needs checked for bugs / inconsistencies, then I can release 1.0
06:48<andythenorth>so shall I abandon it?
06:48<andythenorth>there is precedent :P
06:55<frosch123> <- new roadtype flag :) no houses allowed
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06:57<andythenorth>trams need that flag
06:57<andythenorth>also mining truck roads
06:57<Wolf01>I'm trying to make a little tender for my little train, but I ran out of parts... should I disassemble one of the locomotives?
06:57<andythenorth>Wolf01: lego?
06:58<andythenorth>how many engines have you got?
06:58<Wolf01>8 sets
06:58<andythenorth>yes disassemble
06:58<andythenorth>I like that town screenshot btw
06:58<Wolf01>The streamlined one or the "classic" one?
06:58<andythenorth>you have instructions?
06:59<Wolf01>Yes, but I would like to make my own train
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07:01<andythenorth>if you have instructions it doesn’t matter which one you disassemble :)
07:01<andythenorth>rebuild it later :P
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07:13<Wolf01>Eaters gonna eat
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07:38<Wolf01>Bah, not enough pieces to build locomotive + tender + wagon, I need at least 12 sets
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07:43<@Alberth>hmm, scale problem :) most people think in lego pieces, Wolf01 thinks in lego sets :)
07:43<Wolf01>I'm on another level
07:43<@Alberth>clearly :)
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07:45<@Alberth>but yeah, I can see that to be useful
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08:16*andythenorth has run out of YT videos to watch
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>i've never had a "youtube party"
08:20<frosch123>i thought this channel was one
08:21<andythenorth>there are YT parties? :O
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>dunno, that xkcd is the only reference i have ever seen
08:22<andythenorth>maybe we should play MP OpenTTD
08:22<andythenorth>there is time for a SV game if we set one up
08:24<Wolf01> just finished it
08:24<Wolf01>No parts for tender
08:24<andythenorth>Christmas Train
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08:25<Wolf01>Emerald express
08:26<Wolf01>Now I have 14 spare driving wheels...
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>then you need to take it apart again and recombine it until you have no parts leftover
08:29<Wolf01>It's hard to add more wheels on a 4-6-2 locomotive
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08:31<andythenorth>make a wagon for spare wheels
08:31<andythenorth>you can use wheels to make a boiler
08:31<andythenorth>or a tender for an oil-burner
08:31<Wolf01>I don't have any more truck wheels :(
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08:46<wCPO>How do I enable the speed up feature on a server?
08:51<Wolf01>It's not possible
08:52<wCPO>:/ Thx
08:54<wCPO>Can I go year x other ways than changing starting_year?
08:55<frosch123>you can, if you load the savegame in singleplayer
08:55<Wolf01>Save the game, load it in single player and cheat the year
08:55<frosch123>change the date via the cheats, then save and reload in multiplayer
08:55<Wolf01>Save it again and load the save in multiplayer
08:56<@Alberth>in SP you can also use the fast-forward key :)
08:57<wCPO>Complicated :)
08:58<@Alberth>in MP, all machines have to run at equal speed, which is certain not to happen with fast-forward
08:59<@Alberth>ie you'd have pretty much instant global desync
08:59<wCPO>I see.
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09:07<andythenorth>Wolf01: I am wondering how much power M motors would have at one per wheel :)
09:07<andythenorth>With L motors, it’s a lot of power
09:07<andythenorth>but a lot of $£€
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09:10<andythenorth>the M is crap
09:10<andythenorth>always has been :)
09:14<frosch123>i only know the first one
09:15<frosch123>the train motor i know isn't even in the list :p
09:21<andythenorth>right, let’s see I can trigger any asserts in the NRT fork for Wolf01 :)
09:24<andythenorth>no assert so far :(
09:34<Wolf01>Good, so removing the asserts mean they won't be triggered ;)
09:36<andythenorth>Wolf01: all construction _seems_ to work
09:36<andythenorth>I haven’t tested multiple company stuff
09:37<andythenorth>but can’t get any asserts for roads, auto-road, tunnel, bridge, depot, or stops
09:37<Wolf01>Stations will build just 1st road sub type for each roadtype
09:37<Wolf01>Maybe depots too
09:37<Wolf01>Bridges should work
09:37<andythenorth>also dynamite and remove tools - can’t trigger anything
09:38<Wolf01>Remove I think just removes the old stuff, but leaves bits in m4 there
09:38<andythenorth>let’s see
09:38<Wolf01>Try using the land info tool
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09:44*andythenorth makes a new test grf
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09:49<andythenorth>“Attempt to use invalid ID (sprite 82)"
09:50<Wolf01>Wrong label or something
09:51<andythenorth>happens when there are three types in the grf
09:52<Wolf01>I have no clue, I just copy/pasted from rails
10:00<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ o_O
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10:02<Wolf01>I think I found the problem
10:02<Wolf01>if (id + numinfo > ROADTYPE_END) {
10:02<Wolf01>It should be ROADSUBTYPE_END
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10:03<andythenorth>if we can get grf loading working with multiple types, I’ll make a bunch of test cases
10:09<Wolf01>Patchy patch committed, and it loads
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10:19<Wolf01>I'll try to draw sprites from roadtypeinfo instead the hardcoded ones
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10:20<Wolf01>So you'll be able to replace even those
10:22<Wolf01>Heh, all the road_land.h stuff...
10:41<andythenorth>Wolf01: confirmed working for me
10:41<andythenorth>now I need a flag to make it tram, not road
10:42<andythenorth>frosch123: propose a var name and number for tram/road flag? I assume it’s just a bool…
10:45<Wolf01>We said to use 2 different features, if road is 0x18, tram is 0x19
10:49<andythenorth>makes sense
10:49*andythenorth will need a bigger nml patch
10:50<frosch123>yep, two features, so that ids are all separate
10:52<Wolf01>With one feature you would be able to define just up to 16 roadtypes (road+tram) => 15 roads and 1 tram, 15 trams 1 road, 8 roads and 8 trams
10:53*andythenorth wonders how not to have a lot of copy-paste nml code
10:54<frosch123>how do vehicles do it?
10:54<andythenorth>I will look, maybe there are functions
10:57<@Alberth>can you create or destroy an object from a NOGO script? I'd like to place and remove transmitters, but I couldn't find a call for it
10:58<andythenorth>@seen Zuu
10:58<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: Zuu was last seen in #openttd 11 weeks, 4 days, 6 hours, 14 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Zuu> Perhaps because it was "free" space near ground floor that you couldn't use for offices.
10:59<frosch123>Alberth: given that objects have no name to identify them with, i doubt :)
10:59<@Alberth>good idea andy, too bad it didn't fly
11:01<@Alberth>hmm, tiles should be able to have them, maybe that gives a clue
11:03<@Alberth>nope, can't ask tile type either
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11:08<@Alberth>ok, so not possible, and not trivial to add
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11:16<Wolf01>I made a mistake, somewhere
11:16<Wolf01>Like this one RoadTypeIdentifier roadtype_map[ROADTYPE_END][ROADSUBTYPE_END];
11:20<Wolf01>uint8 *roadtypes = AllocaM(uint8, idcount); <- how do I change this one to be able to use the above one?
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11:22<Wolf01>I copied it from RailTypeMapSpriteGroup, but it's not the same
11:22<frosch>that one is the same
11:22<frosch>the next line changes
11:23<frosch>roadtypes[i] = _cur.grffile->roadtypes_map[feature_to_roadtype][buf->ReadByte()];
11:38<Wolf01>Nice,, I forgot a ) or a ] somewhere in the code and now every single file has error...
11:39<frosch>i always forget the ; at the end of class definitions
11:45<Wolf01>Nice, changing a type resolved the error
11:45<Wolf01>Maybe it was used in some template
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12:04<Wolf01>Nice, GetRoadTypes(ti->tile) asserts in DrawRoadBits
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12:10<Wolf01>Wrong type
12:15<Wolf01>Ok, I can draw roadbits from roadtypeinfo now, but I don't know how to load them from grf
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12:33<Wolf01>image = _road_sloped_sprites[ti->tileh - 1] + SPR_TRAMWAY_SLOPED_OFFSET; <- any idea on how I could define this in the roadtypeinfo?
12:33<Wolf01>Just the offset?
12:36<frosch>you only put the SPR_TRAMWAY_SLOPED_OFFSET into it
12:36<frosch>the _road_slopes_sprites stays the same for every type
12:37<frosch>it's similar to "base_sprites" in railtype
12:38<Wolf01>Single sprites are easy, but for roadbits for example I need to understand how they are handled
12:39<frosch>well, you may not do it exactly the same for newgrf types
12:39<Wolf01>Also, it's only in the hardcoded roadtypeinfo the problem, as every grf has it's own sprites
12:40<Wolf01>So most offset are meaningless
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12:41<Wolf01>Maybe they are only set to 0, because if you define more roadtypes you need to use them too
12:42<frosch>hmm, yeah, given that there is only one built-in road and tram type
12:42<frosch>maybe it's not even worth moving those constants to a table
12:43<frosch>just "if newgrf-defined { GetCustomRoadSrpite } else { use offsets }"
12:44<Wolf01>That would be cool, if I'll ever understand how to do it
12:47<frosch>RailTypes have UsesOverlay()
12:47<Wolf01>I don't think this bracnh is in sync
12:48<Wolf01>I don't even know how to do it
12:48<Wolf01>I just cloned andy's repository :P
12:48<andythenorth>that was a clone of openttd trunk :)
12:54<Wolf01>Another thing I don't really understand is tram road bits sprites
12:59<Wolf01>If roads have 0, 0x546, 0x545, 0x53B, 0x544, 0x534, 0x53E, 0x539..., in the code there is (roadbits)-SPR_ROAD_Y, do trambits have low number sprites?
13:00<Wolf01>image = _road_tile_sprites_1[tram] - SPR_ROAD_Y; <- "0 - 1332" what is the result?
13:00<Wolf01>Ok, that might not happen
13:01<Wolf01>But 1350 - 1332 is 18
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13:03<Eddi|zuHause>what exactly are you trying to do?
13:03<Wolf01>Generalising the function by moving some hardcoded stuff into the roadtypeinfo
13:05<Eddi|zuHause>if road sprite is selected by SPR_ROAD_BASE + roadbits, then tram sprite should be selected by SPR_TRAM_BASE + trambits
13:07<Wolf01>I think it's because this part of the code does some weird stuff trying to hide the road sprite when there is only tram
13:12<Eddi|zuHause>i have no clue what you're talking about
13:13<Wolf01>road_cmd.cpp DrawRoadBits()
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>so, from what i gather, _road_tile_sprites_1 contains sprite IDs from the SPR_ROAD_* range
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>so this operation above calculates the offset from the raw sprite numbers
13:18<Eddi|zuHause>presumably to add that offset to something else later
13:18<Wolf01>No, it just draws in the next line
13:19<Wolf01>It seem to draw a terrain sprite
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>image += (road == ROAD_NONE) ? SPR_TRAMWAY_TRAM : SPR_TRAMWAY_OVERLAY;
13:19<Eddi|zuHause>so first you calculate the offset, then you add that offset to _TRAM or _OVERLAY, depending on whether there should be road drawn or not
13:20<Eddi|zuHause>you could refactor that so that _road_tile_sprites contains the offset directly, this problably needs adjusting in the road drawing code
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>and _road_tile_sprites_1[0] is 0 because there can't be no trackbits
13:21<Eddi|zuHause>so this value is never read
13:21<Wolf01>Or I could do every single combination like in DrawTrackBits(), but I like more the DrawRoadBits() way
13:23<Eddi|zuHause>@base 10 16 1332
13:23<@DorpsGek>Eddi|zuHause: 534
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you could refactor this mapping from roadbits to sprite offsets, because it's probably needed in more places
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>but the mapping is perfectly logical, 1,2,4 and 8 are the single end bits, 5 and 10 are the straight roads, etc.
13:35<Wolf01>Ok, half of my brain understood what you are saying and even know what to do, but the other half doesn't want to collaborate
13:35<Eddi|zuHause>maybe you're suffering from :p
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13:37<Wolf01>Yes, exactly, but my halves don't disagree, one of them is just stupid as fuck
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13:42<Wolf01>I need to put that stupid to sleep again, he awakened some hours ago and then I wasn't able to do anytning since...
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13:57<andythenorth>Wolf01: you know how the sprite offsets work, yes? o_O
13:57<andythenorth>and then it’s doing something with adding bits
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14:25<Wolf01>andythenorth, yes, I know how it works, but I have some brain problems this evening
14:26<Wolf01>I think it's better if I sleep for half an hour
14:26*andythenorth has brain problems most days
14:27<Wolf01>Because when you are writing something and at the same time you yell "wtf am I writing, it doesn't work that way" then something is not right
15:08<argoneus>good evening train friends
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15:21<V453000>Wolf01: smart as fuck
15:28<andythenorth>this way my brain does not work
15:32*Wolf01 too
15:37<andythenorth>bit meta?
15:37<Wolf01>Heh... put these axles on rails and roll them to destination
15:42*andythenorth needs to patch NML
15:57<Wolf01>V453000, the guy who posted the burner furnace smelter must be crazy, do you agree? ;)
16:03<Supercheese>completely NUTS
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16:11<V453000>it's awesome, I love it
16:11<Wolf01>Too much thinking on it, I'm for simple solutions: 1 belt with one side ore and other side fuel
16:12<Wolf01>Or 2 belts and >9000 logistic bots
16:13<V453000>using a simple solution is certainly totally fine as well
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---Logclosed Mon Oct 24 00:00:13 2016