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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-10-25

---Logopened Tue Oct 25 00:00:14 2016
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04:37<Wolf01>Mmmh, I think I made a mistake somewhere... MoveSnap -> snaps then move
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05:07<Ethereal_Whisper> I built an ugly SLH that works
05:09<Wolf01>Don't you get lost?
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05:11<V453000>the choices will not be super great once it gets into traffic
05:11<Ethereal_Whisper>How do you mean V453000 ?
05:12<V453000>from the SL, first you split to first ML line, then a split to another ML line, and on that same track is the split to the opposite direciton of the ML
05:12<Wolf01>V453000, did you see the video about the conveyor belt I posted this night?
05:12<V453000>it's better to split the lines first, each going to each ML direction, and choose from ML lines afterwards
05:12<V453000>yes Wolf01 it has been on reddit
05:12<Ethereal_Whisper>I'm not sure I follow you on that V453000
05:15<Ethereal_Whisper>Oh, I see
05:15<Ethereal_Whisper>I shouldn't share track between trains going in opposite directions is what you mean yeah?
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05:16<V453000>well yeah
05:16<V453000>the trains have no way how to choose between ML lines that way
05:16<V453000>or, hardly
05:16<Ethereal_Whisper>Oh, the blue line splits later
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05:18<V453000>well yeah I know
05:18<V453000>and that's fine
05:19<V453000>because SL chooses from ML line A or ML line B at one spot
05:19<V453000>you can place presignals there and control che choice
05:19<V453000>in the red place you can't because you still need to let trains go to blue
05:20<Ethereal_Whisper>I see what you mean now
05:24<Ethereal_Whisper>Am I understanding you properly by making this fix?
05:32<Wolf01>Yes, that's better
05:34<Wolf01>But you can notice the bridge/tunnelfest this will end up
05:35<Wolf01>That's why I build leveled junctions with PBS and I don't give a fuck about trains waiting for 2 seconds more
05:35<Ethereal_Whisper>Well, it doesn't have a very high capacity, but it is only there at the moment serving 3 stations from the south (they all turn east to join the ML right now) and 4 from the north (1 turns east, 3 turn west)
05:43<V453000>that's better yes Ethereal_Whisper
05:43<V453000>Wolf01: the bigger the scale, the more disfunctional your PBS is :P
05:44<Wolf01>It's not that I don't make bridges eh...
05:46<Ethereal_Whisper> this is my slightly prettier SLH
05:46<Ethereal_Whisper>I need to fix the tunnels underneath the SL, I don't know why I did that
05:46<Wolf01>That ugly "U" track :(
05:47<Ethereal_Whisper>It's a waiting bay before a station, it works
05:47<Ethereal_Whisper>I forgot the setting again that enables overflows to work
05:47<Wolf01>Why not building the station between the lake and the mine?
05:48<Ethereal_Whisper>Now there's a thought
05:52<Wolf01>I would have connected it the other way, but this works too
05:53<Ethereal_Whisper>Regarding station direction, I'd rather have the convoluted turnaround be in front of the entrance, so trains make it at least a tiny bit quicker to the drop station
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06:05<Wolf01>Mmmh, why the "planning track" of the useless tracks grf doesn't show? Hit track limit with NuTracks?
06:08<Wolf01>Seem so..
06:36<Wolf01>A set with RVs for 1850?
06:37<Wolf01>Maybe ships too?
06:38<Eddi|zuHause>egrvts and sailing ships?
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>FISH should probably work
06:39<Wolf01>FISH starts 1870 iirc, egrvts is compatible with FIRS?
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08:22<Flygon>Part of me wants to see a ship set starting from 1AD
08:22<Flygon>Through to 1800
08:22<Flygon>Simply because.. er
08:22<Flygon>Derp :D
08:23<Flygon>Of course, we'd need to somehow limit town growth, and also need some extensive industry sets...
08:23<Wolf01>Sailing ships and horse carts until 1800
08:24<Alkel_U3>also losing cargo to bandits in heavily forested areas :P
08:24<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: i imagine sailing and rowing ships evolved a bit in that timeframe
08:24<Flygon>A bit
08:25<Flygon>It's just a shame OTTD's time mechanics are so rigid
08:25<Flygon>Otherwise having the game go relatively 'quickly' from 1AD to 1800...
08:25<Flygon>As in
08:25<Flygon>The closer to 1800-1850
08:25<Flygon>The slower time goes
08:25<Wolf01>With a point of gamescripts and newgrfs could be addressed
08:26<Wolf01>Game time not, and I don't want to daylength again
08:26<Flygon>Yeah, that's the issue
08:26<Eddi|zuHause>Flygon: you mean like civilization, where the first turns are 100 years and the last turns are 1 year (or even shorter)?
08:26<Flygon>And gamescripts not being able to 'handle' towns kinda sucks
08:26<Flygon>Eddi: That sorta curve, yeah
08:27<Flygon>(It'd be kinda neat to see a USA scenario starting in, say, 1400, with just a few towns, and then more towns get made as the years go by, thanks to gamescripting. Because, y'know, colonization by Europeans)
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>1400 sounds a bit early
08:28<Flygon>(Though, I suspect an 'Australia' scenario would be more sane with that subject. 1778 is much closer to the steam locomotive's invention >_>)
08:28<Eddi|zuHause>there was probably not a lot of serious settlement into the USA before 1700
08:28<Flygon>1500, sorry
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08:29<Flygon>Either way, gotta give those known large native American settlements a chance to shine :P
08:29<Flygon>Nobody make a "Slave" cargo, please.
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08:32<Eddi|zuHause>a super-shallow research shows that settlement in virginia started around 1600
08:33<Wolf01><Eddi|zuHause> 1400 sounds a bit early <- not if you count Vikings on Greenland & Terranova
08:33<Eddi|zuHause>no, i don't count those.
08:34<Flygon>I mean, I'm counting semi-permanant Native American colonies, but then I remembered that applying Western GRF sets is a bit bizarre
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08:42<Flygon>I gotta sleep
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09:33<supermop___>Eddi|zuHause: Mississippian cities flourished around 900-1300
09:34<supermop___>plenty of trade up and down river with smaller nations outside of their region, as well as some artifacts suggesting communication with central american peoples
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09:35<supermop___>not sure how fun that industry would be though
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09:36<supermop___>corn farm, clay pit, quarry, fishing ground
09:36<supermop___>obsidian from pacific north west?
09:36<supermop___>obsidian -> farm supplies
09:37<supermop___>vikings harvested berries for some probably disgusting wine
09:38<Eddi|zuHause>supermop___: and then 90% of the inhabitants die because some europeans passed through the area
09:39<supermop___>well the Iroquois nations yes, but Mississippians died out about 200 years before first Spanish arrived in the area due to agricultural collapse
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>not what i heard
09:40<supermop___>Cahokia was long abandoned by the time missionaries set up a monastery on top of the main temple mound in the late 1500s
09:40<Eddi|zuHause>the first spanish expedition from florida to the mississippi found a rather rich culture, and 100 years later the settlers found mostly empty space
09:40<Wolf01>It would be cool if a game script could make a city to unpopulate gradually and die (like the bug happened in an old OTTD revision)
09:42<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: just set growth speed to 0
09:42<supermop___>Eddi|zuHause: some groups from the north moved into the st. louis area afterwards, but the mound building soceity was no longer present at that time
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09:44<supermop___>idk maybe there is new evidence in the last 10 years
09:44<supermop___>but that was the consensus last time i did any academic study of the topic
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10:04<Eddi|zuHause>supermop___: i mean, there was an expedition by Hernando de Soto in 1539, who found still "active" parts of the mississippi culture, and one by Tristan de Luna y Arellano in 1559 who found the same areas widely deserted
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>similarly, the first attempts to settle newfoundland failed because the area was too densely populated, and later the settlers found lots of untouched land
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10:19<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but it was hardly the only representant of the mississippi culture
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10:26<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i'm not quite sure what the actual news is
10:27<Eddi|zuHause>something about a traffic reform, and most of the rail infrastructure is in the south while most of the traffic is in the north? and then something about highways and ports
10:29<Wolf01>As usual Title says something about just 2 words of the article and then they talk about a more dispersive argument
10:30<Wolf01>The news is: we have a shitty rail network and it will cost big money to upgrade
10:41<Wolf01>So, if I delete some code here and there and change a variable swap to a multiplication, I can really simplify the code... the problem is to get the multiplication right
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10:42<argoneus>Alberth: I was wondering
10:42<argoneus>is tight coupling inherently bad?
10:42<argoneus>ie two classes having references to eachother
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10:42<argoneus>I can't really figure out how to do it w/o
10:44<Wolf01>Like parent-child?
10:45<argoneus>more like siblings
10:46<argoneus>I have a Game class
10:46<argoneus>that handles all the local game logic
10:46<argoneus>but then I also want to have a separate network entity that handles all the incoming/outgoing network stuff
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10:46<argoneus>this network entity needs to have a reference to the Game to call its functions based on received messages
10:46<argoneus>and the Game should also be able to send network messages
10:46<argoneus>so I have a reference to eachother in them but apparently this is """"bad design""""
10:47<Wolf01>Yes, it is
10:47<argoneus>I just don't want to pollute the game class with buffers and such
10:47<argoneus>so I split it into two
10:47<argoneus>but idk how to make them work together
10:48<argoneus>I'm not a fan of overengineered solutions using an abstractnetworkinterfacefactory
10:49<argoneus>how should I do it, then?
10:49<Wolf01>You shouldthink which class should handle the work, I would make the network stuff an API and the games handles all the game stuff, while asks the network API to send things and reacts to network events when receives things
10:49<argoneus>well that's what I'm doing
10:49<argoneus>"reacts to network events when receives things"
10:50<argoneus>the network class receives the message
10:50<Wolf01>Event handlers
10:50<argoneus>and parses it
10:50<argoneus>what do I do with the parsed message
10:50<argoneus>if I can't just call game->dothething()
10:51<Wolf01>You will have Network.OnReceivedData += delegate(byte receivedData) { statement statement DoStuffWithData(); }
10:52<Wolf01>When Network receives data it triggers the OnReceivedData and executes all events associated with it
10:53<Wolf01>I do it with timers
10:53<argoneus>I want to parse the message inside the network handler already
10:53<Wolf01>All the code is in Game
10:54<Ethereal_Whisper>I just built my game's first BBH
10:54<Wolf01>Yes, you can parse it in the Network and pass the parsed variables to the delegate
10:54<argoneus>so the idea is
10:54<argoneus>(I'm using python so I'll have to look it up)
10:54<argoneus>but basically
10:55<argoneus>Game class has onHello()
10:55<argoneus>Network class has onRawMessage()
10:55<argoneus>when the message is receives
10:55<argoneus>network handler parses it, realizes it's a Hello, and notifies whoever cares that there's a Hello message from the network?
10:55<argoneus>and Game then does the rest
10:56<argoneus>*something* like that?
10:56<Wolf01>I have the Renderer which works that way, since Renderer doesn't know how to render everything, every object which need to render something needs to have access to the Renderer, but only to tell it what to draw, not how to prepare the texture, resetting the device, clearing the screen
10:57<argoneus>but basically
10:57<argoneus>the whole idea is
10:57<argoneus>that Game doesn't care if it receives its data from the network
10:57<argoneus>or by pigeon mail
10:57<argoneus>it just cares what to do when it receives such a message?
10:58<argoneus>still dunno how to avoid tight coupling
10:58<argoneus>network notifies Game when something arrives
10:58<argoneus>but what if Game needs to send something over the network
10:58<Wolf01>Doesn't py have closures or delegates?
10:58<argoneus>maybe does I never used them
10:58<@Alberth>it does
10:58<argoneus>I never used delegates in any language
10:59<argoneus>thinking now might be a good time to start
10:59<argoneus>it's still difficult for me to visualize
10:59<argoneus>because tight coupling makes sense in my head
10:59<argoneus>two people work together and keep exchanging information
10:59<argoneus>if the game relies on network and vice versa
10:59<argoneus>why is it bad?
11:00<argoneus>it's not like network connection is optional in a chat client
11:00<Wolf01>Delegates are like "I hand you this, you can call me when you need me to do this"
11:00<@Alberth>def f(msg): # handle message ; return
11:00<@Alberth>outbox = f
11:00<@Alberth>mesg = #receive mesg
11:01<argoneus>isn't that just a function reference/pointer
11:01<@Alberth>yeah, other languages use more expensive words for it
11:02<argoneus>I guess I'm stupid because I still don't see how this will help
11:02<Wolf01>OpenTTD for example uses them in newgrf loading
11:02<argoneus>if I only needed network to notify Game, then I would
11:02<@Alberth>closure is when you attach an object to it
11:02<argoneus>I need them to notify eachother
11:02<argoneus>can I really avoid tight coupling in that case
11:02<argoneus>or should I, even
11:03<Ethereal_Whisper>How should I handle priority merges when building a BBH?
11:03<@Alberth>basically you make a number of 'outboxes' for received messages. When you get a new message call the handler 'here is a new message'
11:03<Ethereal_Whisper>It's a T junction, I'd imagine the traffic splitting up and turning either right or left should yield right of way, right?
11:04<argoneus>isn't that basically tight coupling
11:04<argoneus>if I have a reference to other class' functions?
11:05<argoneus>might as well just keep a reference to the whole thing and call them manually, no?
11:05<Wolf01>Ethereal_Whisper: you mean when a train has to decide between left or right with no consequences?
11:05<argoneus>I'm sorry if I'm being stupid :(
11:05<argoneus>I just don't get it
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11:05<@Alberth>an alternative is that everybody gets the new message itself at some regular interval
11:06<Ethereal_Whisper>Wolf01, I think I answered my own question actually, thanks though :)
11:06<argoneus>so basically
11:07<@Alberth>teddybear programming for the win :)
11:07<argoneus>instead of game knowing about network and network knowing about game
11:07<argoneus>game knows about network, game registers its own functions in the network event handlers
11:07<argoneus>and also registers network's functions in its own event handlers
11:07<argoneus>so I only keep one reference around?
11:07<argoneus>or what
11:09<@Alberth>I think the main trick is that you want a set of "known destinations" that you use, without really caring what's behind it
11:10<@Alberth>the function you get delivers the message by whatever means it needs to, but you don't care
11:11<@Alberth>that way, you can add or remove addressees, without breaking the network part
11:11<Wolf01>[17:07:24] <argoneus> and also registers network's functions in its own event handlers <- one or the other, Game should register its function for NetworkEvents, and should call directly Network function when needs to send... Game doesn't have a "OnINeedToSendThisViaNetwork" event
11:12<argoneus>oh, true
11:12<argoneus>I'll keep network ignorant to the rest of the program then
11:12<argoneus>and just keep a list of event handlers in the network class
11:12<argoneus>does that work?
11:12<argoneus>and classes can register there
11:12<argoneus>that's ok right
11:12<Wolf01>You can even reuse Network for another game if you do it well
11:13<argoneus>so all network will do
11:13<argoneus>is receive messages, parse them, and delegate them
11:13<argoneus>ignoring any game or whatever that may or may not exist
11:13<argoneus>and the game will use the network's api
11:13<argoneus>to send stuff
11:13<argoneus>ok ebin cheers
11:13<Wolf01>And if there's no delegate for that event, it does nothing
11:14<argoneus>now to figure out
11:14<argoneus>how to tie a GUI into all this
11:14<argoneus>uh oh
11:14<Wolf01>You can add delegates from the gui too
11:14<Wolf01>So when network receives a message the gui flases an indicator
11:15<argoneus>OH WAIT
11:15<argoneus>I JUST REALIZED
11:15<argoneus>until now
11:15<argoneus>I thought I'd do something like
11:15<argoneus>network receives message and parses it -> then passes it to Game -> Game updates the GUI
11:15<argoneus>but I just realized
11:15<argoneus>if I do the event meme
11:15<argoneus>where it's parsed and pre-processed fully in the network part
11:15<argoneus>I just need it to notify both the game and the GUI
11:15<argoneus>and it will work
11:19<Wolf01>Now I need to change the whole movement part of my code, need to introduce friction... at least I don't need gravity this time or the speed need to be a vector
11:19<argoneus>actually not quite
11:20<argoneus>because if the network message is invalid
11:20<argoneus>it may need to verify with the game first
11:20<argoneus>then I'll just call gui updates from the game
11:20<argoneus>not much of an issue
11:20<argoneus>just give Game events
11:20<argoneus>and the GUI will feed off those
11:20<argoneus>it all makes sense now
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11:25<Alkel_U3>Has anybody encountered an exploding beer bottle? It happened to me for second time already today at checkout.
11:25<Wolf01>Suddenly beer out of nowhere :D
11:26<Alkel_U3>well, it was in my hand, so, it didn't really just foof into reality :D
11:27<Alkel_U3>I just touched it with another one and it went boom
11:27<Wolf01>You touched it in the right blast point
11:28<Alkel_U3>I really have to learn where that is - it's the exact same kind of beer as before
11:28<Alkel_U3>at least this time it happened before I put it in my backpack
11:29<Wolf01>From the web: "I found out today, that if you take a full beer bottle, (with about 1.5 in of air at the top), and you hit the top with the right amount of force with your hand or fist, you can make the bottom of the bottle fall out!"
11:30<argoneus>what kind of crappy beer bottles do you have
11:30<argoneus>I haven't seen that happen and I live in a beer country
11:31<Alkel_U3>I happen to live in the beeriest country, I really can't explain, either D:
11:32<Alkel_U3>yeah, the bottle trick is well-known, that's not really the the cause :D
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11:32<Alkel_U3>also remids me of
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>"the beeriest country" would be czechia?
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11:36<Alkel_U3>I don't prefer that ridiculous new name but yes. At least from consumption standpoint. :-)
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>that's new? i've been saying that for years
11:37<argoneus>Alkel_U3: ahoj
11:37<argoneus>czechia is dumb
11:37<argoneus>I dont' like it
11:37<Alkel_U3>oh right, german language has had it like that
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>when i was a kid, and czechoslovakia broke up, i was told the new country's name is "Tschechien"
11:38<argoneus>isn't it like
11:38<argoneus>tsechische republik
11:38<argoneus>or something
11:38<argoneus>in german
11:38<Eddi|zuHause>it might be, but i have never heard anyone say that
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>well, ok, i have heard czechs say something like that...
11:39<Wolf01>It's the same for Italy, it's Italian Republic but nobody ever calls it like that
11:39<Eddi|zuHause>you might also hear the name "Tschechei"
11:39<Alkel_U3>argoneus: alright you're in danger. Avoid stressing Vysoký Chlumec - Markýz, lest it explodes into your face :D
11:40<argoneus>Alkel_U3: I only drink kozel/gambrinus
11:40<argoneus>so I'm gucci
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>(the word "Tschechei" (female) would usually be used with the definite article, so "die Tschechei" or "in der Tschechei")
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>(which is in line with many other place names ending in "-ei")
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12:00<Eddi|zuHause>why do i even bother starting a civ game? the moment anyone declares war i'm screwed...
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12:35<Ethereal_Whisper>Eddi|zuHause, I've known it as "Tschechische Republik" which is analogous to the English name "Czech Republic"
12:36<Ethereal_Whisper>No one calls it "Czechia" even though in theory, we could
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12:39<Alkel_U3>Well, most countries have a formal, long name and a shorter one used in normal speech, Czech Republic hasn't had that short one until recently.
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12:40<Ethereal_Whisper>Yeah, most have a formal name of "Kingdom/Empire of ____" or "____ Republic" or "Republic of _____" etc.
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13:38<Eddi|zuHause>Ethereal_Whisper: who is "we"?
13:43<andythenorth>also cats
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13:54<Alkel_U3>Who let Michael Bay into Factorio?
13:57<V453000>haha foqr Klonan
13:59<Wolf01>You might need to do barrel buffers to separate refineries
13:59<Wolf01>It could destroy your entire factory
14:02<Alkel_U3>or sections of pipe where you alternate empty and full with pumps
14:02<V453000>or just not set your refinery on fire
14:02<V453000>haha I just modded the fuck out of steel furnaces
14:02<V453000>adding modules :D
14:03<Alkel_U3>I have once, by mistake. I had the flamethrower selected and pressed space instead of alt.
14:04<Alkel_U3>Still, not as bad as that other time when I thought I had flamethrower selected and it was rocket launcher instead.
14:04<Alkel_U3>Loaded with a nuke.
14:05<Alkel_U3>But I DID kill that one mutated biter.
14:05<Alkel_U3>Also myself.
14:05<Wolf01>I'm waiting for the next stable, I'm pissed off by map generator changes midgame :(
14:06<V453000>0.14 is pretty much stable
14:06<V453000>the only remaining bug is some map sending shit in specific cases
14:06<Wolf01>Still you change something every now and then breaking my maps
14:06<Alkel_U3>yeah, I was also very surprised at the tears on the map when playing .13
14:07<V453000>well the map generator might change again in 0.15 so ...
14:07<Wolf01>I start a new clean game every version
14:07<V453000>I'm thinking about starting a new 0.15 map now, but it will probably turn into an abomination
14:08<Wolf01>You already have 0.15?
14:09<Wolf01>Heh, yes, you need to test those new tracks in some way
14:09<V453000>mainly testing the new science, and also playing with high resolution :>
14:09<Wolf01>Fuck high res :D
14:09<V453000>but the current 0.15 obviously is missing basically all of the new big planned features
14:09<V453000>so if I start it now, over time I might even lose save compatibility, or just get a really wtf map
14:10<Wolf01>I'm stuck with 0.14.12 on my tablet, newer ones don't work well
14:10<Wolf01>Missing gui and stuff
14:10<V453000>missing gui? wtf
14:10<Wolf01>Yes.. I see the strings but not the gray panel
14:11<Wolf01>Also I seem I can't find buttons XD
14:11<V453000>okay... ._.
14:11<V453000>could you report it pls?
14:11<Wolf01>I should update again, maybe it was due to a bug that was fixed
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14:19<Ethereal_Whisper>$26 million on new vehicles to upgrade my trains, ow
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14:26<Wolf01>Ok, the version I locked was 0.14.11, the .12 had that problem, .16 seem to work
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15:09<Ethereal_Whisper>I reached 500 trains in single player for the first time ever
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15:11<Ethereal_Whisper>And $1 billion bank balance also for the first time ever :O
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>i once overflowed the bank account in TTO
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17:12<Wolf01>Eddi, do you still have the link about the rant of the Facebook's programming language?
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19:04<Wolf01> lolwhat
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19:47<Eddi|zuHause>the facebook what?
20:05<goodger>isn't facebook still mostly written in PHP and javascript
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23:43<Hilton>Hello. I'd like to ask a question... when servicing a city, do you get better results from a single train station with bus/lorry stations combined into it (one single large station coverage area encompassing the whole town), or by having individual bus/lorry stops and having actual buses running around town? For the latter, is it better to have some buses with Transfer orders to the train...
23:46<Hilton>I can see that I see to get much better ratings with buses running around to separate stations, but it also seems like the income is worse. Is that right?
23:56<Sylf>What's your definition of "better results" in this case?
23:57<Sylf>Income, town rating, town growth, station rating, game score, other?
23:57<Hilton>Yes. :D
23:57<Sylf>Pick one.
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23:58<Hilton>Income. I have a good idea on how it affects most of the rest.
23:59<Sylf>Then, it's probably easiest to have some kind of local transport, taking pax and mail from all parts of town to single train station
---Logclosed Wed Oct 26 00:00:05 2016