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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-10-26

---Logopened Wed Oct 26 00:00:05 2016
---Daychanged Wed Oct 26 2016
00:00<Sylf>then let the train do long distance transport
00:00<Hilton>By way of transfers, not regular cargo runs, right?
00:00<Sylf>assuming you're not using infrastructure maintenance cost feature
00:00<Sylf>it depends on the cargo dist setting
00:01<Sylf>with cargo dist, using transfer order actually doesn't make sense
00:01<Sylf>without cargo dist, use transfer order when unloading local transport vehicles
00:03<Hilton>What's the default? Other than some purely visual items and realistic acceleration, most of my settings are 1.6.1 default
00:16<Sylf>not sure. probably without cargo dist
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00:24<Hilton>Distribution Mode for all cargo types is set to Manual
00:24<Hilton>no automatic distribution
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04:06<Alkel_U3>good morning
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07:02<Wolf01>Since I already demontrated that I'm incredibly stupid, how do I convert a flag to its bit position?
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07:08<Eddi|zuHause>there's a "find first bit" macro somewhere
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>src/core/bitmath_func.hpp:uint8 FindFirstBit(uint32 x);
07:10<Eddi|zuHause>something like that
07:11<Wolf01>I have some memories of log2(value) or something like that
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but log is an extremely expensive operation
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>also, floating point.
07:12<Wolf01>Ok, that function is a good approximation, could I borrow it?
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>if you have a single bit set, you just right-shift until the value is zero
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>and count the steps
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>it's GPL. the usual rules apply
07:14<Wolf01>Usually I take stuff from public domain only (stackoverflow snippets if they don't have a license)
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>well, if you know what you're looking for you might find other sources with similar functions that don't have GPL...
07:15<asie>perhaps one of these?
07:16<Wolf01>Or maybe I could just do it in another way
07:16<Wolf01>Instead of using a normal array I use a dictionary
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>well that is pretty much what i said
07:17<Wolf01>Thanks asie, it will be really useful in future
07:17<asie>no problem
07:18<Wolf01>Also thanks Eddi to point me towards the implementation, so I can search better :)
07:19<Wolf01>(I expected a "GetBitPos()")
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08:54<Milek7>why store multiple flags packed in one byte?
08:54<Milek7>memory is cheap
08:55<goodger>it was somewhat less cheap in 1993
08:56<Milek7>yes, but i guess that Wolf01 is writing something new
08:58<Wolf01>Memory is cheap but writing type = A | B | C instead of type[] = {A, B, C} is cleaner, specially when you have to write a 300 chars long line
09:00<goodger>needs more lisp imo
09:06<Milek7>what are you trying to do? what flags are stored in type?
09:07<_dp_>well then, why not {"A", "B", "C"} it is more flexible and doesn't pollute global namespace ;)
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>that's the most stupid argument i have ever heard...
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09:08<Eddi|zuHause>"hey, let's circumvent this feature where the compiler tells me when i made a typo"
09:09<_dp_>well, it's more of a python way, there is no compiler xD
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>there is.
09:10<Eddi|zuHause>you just use it as a seamlessly integrated compiler in the interpreter
09:10<_dp_>whatever, any typos are runtime
09:11<Eddi|zuHause>still better than silently failing
09:12<_dp_>you have tests and asserts for it not to be silent
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>that's even better... "let's circumvent this builtin feature and reimplement it"
09:15<SpComb>you wouldn't have an array of flags, that would be expensive to test for flags being set
09:16<_dp_>there are no enums in python, though you can reimplement them the other way
09:16<Wolf01>I'm not using python :)
09:18<_dp_>Wolf01, to be honest, there is no need for enum type when you can just do ZERO, ONE, TWO = range(3)
09:20<Wolf01>I use enums to avoid using a wrong value
09:21<Wolf01>Because "Directions.UP" and "Side.UP" might have a different value, other than different meaning
09:26<Wolf01>I could use constants as DIRECTION_UP and SIDE_UP, but they are both "int" and I could put any int value as function argument
09:28<Wolf01>If I want to check if AllowedDirection(Directions d) returns true if the direction is UP or DOWN, I would use a flag, because hardcoded ifs are not the solution, and allowed_directions.Contain(d) is expensive
09:28<Wolf01>So, if you have better arguments, then I'm here and I can read
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09:58<Wolf01>I need a level editor...
10:19<argoneus>good afternoon train friends
10:22<supermop___>i generally like my levels the way they come from the factory, but editing one to have the bubble at 30 degrees would be nice
10:23<Wolf01>I need to make the levels first, my factory is empty XD
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>new LevelFactory()
10:23<Wolf01>And the level data?
10:24<Wolf01>And the level data?
10:24<Wolf01>If the levels folder is empty, it can't load anything
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>1. collect underpants
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>2. ?
10:29<Eddi|zuHause>3. profit
10:33<Wolf01>I'm more like
10:33<Wolf01>1. sit at desktop
10:33<Wolf01>2. tap keyboard keys
10:33<Wolf01>3. ?
10:33<Wolf01>4. like what you have done
10:34<Wolf01>5. profit
10:43<Eddi|zuHause>that's way more steps, no wonder it doesn't work...
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13:16<argoneus>Shpuld: why is eurobeat such a good genre
13:16<argoneus>omit that
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13:24<@Alberth>too late, it's broadcasted over the entire Internet already
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14:41<Eddi|zuHause>i think the participle of "cast" is "cast", no "-ed"
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14:44<andythenorth>isn’t it just
14:54<frosch123>is "cast" related to "cat"?
15:00<@Alberth>it's a cat with an additional letter?
15:00<@Alberth>o/ V
15:00<V453000>hello :)
15:01<V453000>I thought rails for openttd were hell
15:01<V453000>until I started working on high resolution factorio rails
15:01<@Alberth>haha :)
15:01<V453000>in openttd many of the problems are simply unsolvable
15:01<V453000>in factorio it's much more complex
15:01<V453000>because you actually have to solve them :D
15:01<V453000>also moar resolution = more hell
15:02<frosch123>is f also only sprite-sorting? or does it use some z buffer?
15:02<V453000>only sprite sorting
15:03<frosch123>so you need sprites for all junction combinations :p
15:03<V453000>well that's the problem
15:03<V453000>there are NO junction combinations :D
15:03<frosch123>2^16 or how many?
15:03<V453000>all tracks are drawn exactly the same way in ALL cases
15:03<V453000>so they need to tile in all imaginable combinations
15:04<V453000>it's 100 sprites in high, and 100 sprites in low resolution anyway XD
15:04<frosch123>i guess your best try is to convince them to add a z buffer then :p
15:04<V453000>(each tile consists of 4 layers so it's like 24 or something tiles)
15:04<V453000>some with variations
15:05<V453000>nah I actually solved pretty much all of it now
15:05<Alkel_U3>you can blur that and get away with it in lowres, in one of the last hi-res FFF it looked like a decent clusterfuck of sleepers
15:05<V453000>there are a few unsolvable things which I am just trying to solve visually to minimize their visibility
15:05<frosch123>i can only play f in low res anyway :)
15:05<V453000>but it's going well :)
15:05<V453000>frosch123: time for a new gpu :P
15:05<Alkel_U3>I'm really curious what it will look like
15:05<V453000>but I'm reworking the lowres as well
15:05<V453000>so the system will be there, just not as many pixels :P
15:05<V453000>can't hide from it
15:06<frosch123>considered that, but it was kind of rude that f managed to lock up the whole computer by running out of gpu memory or something
15:06<V453000>you should see what blender does when it runs out of vram
15:07<V453000>[freezes the pc for several minutes completely, shuts down monitors, crashes blender]
15:08<andythenorth>you’re a vram
15:08<V453000>your mom is a vram
15:08<V453000>can't be big enough
15:08<V453000>gg? :)
15:09<V453000>do you even tram?
15:09<andythenorth>today I ISO 27001
15:09<andythenorth>tramz not
15:10<V453000>don't think I want to know what that ISO means
15:10<andythenorth>such ISO
15:10<frosch123>V453000: you need it to get public money
15:10<andythenorth>also child #1 has been vomiting all day
15:10<andythenorth>and the nanny vomited so child #2 was also here all afternoon
15:10<andythenorth>no tramz
15:10<frosch123>the dog of a coworker was vomiting at the office yesterday all day
15:10<andythenorth>wife just got hom
15:11<andythenorth>home *
15:11*andythenorth making dinner
15:11<andythenorth>dog vom
15:11<V453000>wife is at cinema for the first time after a long time, am home with #1
15:11<andythenorth>won’t be making #2 that way
15:11<V453000>situation stable
15:11<V453000>-> railz
15:12<andythenorth>baby monitor TV?
15:12<andythenorth>frosch123: you don’t _need_ 27001 to get public money
15:12<andythenorth>but it’s a shitload more paperwork to fill in quite often, compared to just getting the ISO
15:13<andythenorth>“oh you have ISO 27001” versus “here is our infosec compliance spreadsheet"
15:14<frosch123>don't think any customer would know about the latter
15:18<andythenorth>mine do :P
15:18<andythenorth>or their IT dept does
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16:10<andythenorth>or ‘devices will conform to a controlled configuration'
16:10<andythenorth>what larks
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17:44<Wolf01>A. Use one timer with "reloadTime / level" (you start with 1, you can shot one projectile for each reload)
17:44<Wolf01>B. Instance n-level timers and each projectile has it's own reloadTime (you can shot up to "level" projectiles at the same time but reload time stay the same)
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17:45<Wolf01>Which one would be better?
17:46<Wolf01>A seem easy
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17:50<andythenorth>try A
17:50<andythenorth>see what gameplay demands
17:50<andythenorth>I made maybe 30 or 40 commercial flash games
17:50<Wolf01>A is already in place, and I think it's the original game behaviour
17:51<andythenorth>I learnt when to do the minimum, and when to plan ahead for flexibility
17:51<Wolf01>But I don't want to make the exact original game
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17:51<andythenorth>how many guns, just one?
17:51<andythenorth>tanks have multiple weapon systems… ;)
17:51<Wolf01>One, some tanks have 2
17:51<Wolf01>Or even 3
17:52<Wolf01>I think that leveling up you just will be better at reloading
17:52<Wolf01>But for 2 guns tanks you should be able to shot 2 times with 2 reloads
17:53<andythenorth>you can’t reload until the projectile has landed / exploded?
17:53<andythenorth>or it’s a fixed rate of fire?
17:54<andythenorth>I’ve seen both in game mechanics, but the fixed rate of fire is usually better
17:54<Wolf01>Yes you can, I started with the idea that you can't fire again until the first projectile exploded
17:54<andythenorth>that is good if you’re prioritising accuracy, but otherwise it sucks
17:54<andythenorth>a lot of 80s games did it, probably because they could only animate one projectile at once
17:54<Wolf01>But I can't put 3 things which behave differently on the same mechanism
17:54<andythenorth>what are your projectiles?
17:55<Wolf01>Power up based, you start with a normal whell, then you upgrade to AP, HE, HEAP with different powerups
17:55<Wolf01>AP do more damage to tanks, HE to walls
17:56<andythenorth>how much does realism matter?
17:56<Wolf01>It doesn't matter at all :D
17:56<andythenorth>if you have wire guided weapons, it’s one at once :P
17:56<andythenorth>fire and forget weapons, that’s down to fire rate of the gun / loader
17:56<Wolf01>I'm planning to add unarmed tanks (APCs?) for objective missions
17:57<Wolf01>And other unarmed tanks which have a time bomb
17:57<andythenorth>do you have a ‘current projectile type’ concept in the code?
17:57<Wolf01>YEs, I do
17:57<andythenorth>so just give each type a fixed fire rate?
17:57<Wolf01>I can switch it for debug purpose
17:57<andythenorth>firing is key / mouse?
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17:58<andythenorth>projectile type defines rate, in seconds or game ticks, lock out firing for that period
17:58<andythenorth>what happens if you switch projectile in that period? :P
17:59<andythenorth>always an edge case to consider :)
17:59<Wolf01>Restarts reload from 0
17:59<andythenorth>so you can fire straight away if you switch?
17:59<andythenorth>or the opposite?
17:59<Wolf01>No, you need to wait the game ticks again
18:00<andythenorth>do you have finite supply of each projectile type?
18:00<andythenorth>so no need to auto-switch if they run out
18:00*andythenorth tries to think of other edge cases
18:00<Wolf01>No, it switches only if you find a powerup
18:00<andythenorth>does taking damage affect fire rate?
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18:01<andythenorth>does terrain affect fire rate?
18:01<andythenorth>simples :)
18:01<Wolf01>I think I'll go for A, it scales better with level
18:01<andythenorth>is there any option for sustained fire, followed by longer reload period?
18:02<Wolf01>You mean like a magazine?
18:03<andythenorth>yes, or repeated fire, after which the barrel is too hut
18:03<andythenorth>hot *
18:03<andythenorth>realism :P
18:03<Wolf01>I considered that for B
18:03<andythenorth>‘hold down space for burst'
18:03<Wolf01>But with A doesn't make sense
18:03<andythenorth>can I upgrade the fire rate with any power ups or shopping or anything?
18:03*andythenorth just thinking of edge cases
18:04<Wolf01>Mainly powerups
18:04<andythenorth>do the simple thing, it’s easier to refactor later :)
18:04<Wolf01>You will find "level up" powerups
18:04*andythenorth must to sleep, good luck :D
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18:06<goodger>I am mildly disturbed by the UK's new DEMU order
18:12<sim-al2>Class 800?
18:14<sim-al2>What's wrong with them?
18:16<sim-al2>I've read that they have a few seats that don't really windows, and a few other minor things, but they seem (so far) to be pretty nice
18:16<sim-al2>*really have windows
18:18<goodger>sliding doors, non-Jacobs bogies, unproven line-speed power source switchover tech, they've ordered 1222 cars for more or less simultaneous introduction, and all but 330 have diesel engines
18:19<sim-al2>>Jacobs bogies
18:19<sim-al2>There's a bit of a loading gauge problem that would probably make for some really short cars with articulation like that
18:20<sim-al2>Nothing wrong with sliding doors, I do agree with you on the other points that it's a lot of new stuff mostly untested
18:21<sim-al2>The vast majority of Japanese trains have sliding doors, including Shinkansens, and the trains that operate in the far north in fairly extreme cold and snow
18:21<goodger>and yet these are three metres longer than the mk3/4 cars
18:22<sim-al2>I don't think the engines would fit in articulated cars unless you do something like the old DEMUs
18:22<goodger>the sliding doors pretty much guarantee increased noise and drag, as opposed to plug doors
18:22<sim-al2>Weight and packaging problems
18:23<goodger>still, I don't have to use them
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18:24<goodger>I guess my main problem with these is my memory of the class 395
18:25<goodger>uncomfortable seats, jolting passengers around so they become nauseous, breaking down all the time
18:26<goodger>introducing british manufacturing isn't going to have helped the situation, especially if you're doing a huge volume
18:27<goodger>though I suppose the 395 had a different kind of unwise kludge from the unwise kludge that will probably keep this lot out of full service for ages
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21:44<Ethereal_Whisper>So I've been having problems with my SLH's and started a new game to rebuilt a new network... the trains almost invariably choose the outer track of my ML
21:44<Ethereal_Whisper>Wondering how I can fix this
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23:16<Sylf>Ethereal_Whisper, check signals on the track that trains don't choose
23:16<Sylf>Post the .sav file on some file share site - some one might take a look at it too
23:19<Ethereal_Whisper>I will, Sylf ... currently working on a BBH
23:20<Ethereal_Whisper>Could you take a look at one of my all to all joiners with a TL of 4?
23:20<Ethereal_Whisper>It's 4->2 inner to outer
23:21<Ethereal_Whisper>Inner lanes from the MS so the outer lanes (ML) get priority
23:34<Sylf>a pic of just one section of MSH doesn't tell me much
23:41<Sylf>so,this is not the map you were having problem where trains weren't chosing tracks evenly?
23:42<Sylf>then there's not much I can say or do about this one
23:42<Ethereal_Whisper>I am about to try building my first SLH
23:42<Sylf>other than to say that some curves are shorter than the train length, but I don't know what trains you will be running
23:42<Ethereal_Whisper>Strong class trains, the TL is 4 but they can handle CL 3
23:43<Sylf>there's one CL2 at bottom right
23:44<Ethereal_Whisper>On the west-south joiner from the MS?
23:45<Ethereal_Whisper>Odd, the game measures it as 3
23:46<Sylf>the consecutive zig-zag-zig-zag at the split
23:46<Sylf>that's almost CL1
23:46<Sylf>actually, it is CL1
23:47<Ethereal_Whisper>Oh, before the double bridge on the outer track?
23:47<Sylf>no bridges there
23:47<Sylf>it's the line leading to a tunnel
23:47<Ethereal_Whisper>Oh, that
23:47<Ethereal_Whisper>That doesn't slow down the set of trains I'm using
23:47<Sylf>yes, it will. trust me.
23:48<Sylf>it will go 112km/h or something at best
23:48<Sylf>not 160km/h you're looking for
23:48<Sylf>maybe slower
23:49<Sylf>if in doubt, send some trains that way and test those lines.
23:49<Ethereal_Whisper>I changed it anyway, heh
23:50<Sylf>there's one minor spot that trains can slow down unnecessarily, but that's a smaller issue.
23:51<Sylf>after the very top double bridge, if the train takes the top split, that CL is too short for TL4 CL3 trains.
23:51<Sylf>but those trains will only slow down to maybe 145km/h for a fraction of a second
23:51<Ethereal_Whisper>Let me send some trains through it
23:52<Ethereal_Whisper>It maintained its full speed of 150 km/h on my test
23:55<Ethereal_Whisper>It appears the joiner I built is balanced
23:58<Sylf>It's the 2 tile section like which will cause the slow-down
23:58<Ethereal_Whisper>Yeah, I got rid of that :)
23:59<Sylf>when single train covers 3 bends, it's counted something shorter than CL3
23:59<Sylf>(that sentence taken out of context is incorrect, but... meh.)
---Logclosed Thu Oct 27 00:00:08 2016