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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-10-27

---Logopened Thu Oct 27 00:00:08 2016
---Daychanged Thu Oct 27 2016
00:00<Ethereal_Whisper>I understand you
00:09<Ethereal_Whisper>Thanks for the help :)
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00:34<Ethereal_Whisper>Good morning V453000
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01:16<Lejving>Sylf, are you able to start up coopserver?
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02:58<Ethereal_Whisper>I am no longer having outside lane bias with my SLH joiners :)
03:40<V453000>yo
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04:35<Wolf01>o/
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05:12<Ethereal_Whisper>o/
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06:36<Wolf01>o/
06:36<andythenorth>moin
06:36<goodger>hoi
06:36<Wolf01>At the end I did A+B XD
06:36<andythenorth>:P
06:37<Wolf01>Was easy, one more variable and 2 lines of code moved inside an if
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07:27<andythenorth>where is V453000
07:27<andythenorth>https://twitter.com/thisisinsider/status/790431905590022144
07:29<Wolf01>Lol, I linked it some nights ago, he already saw it :D
07:30<andythenorth>oh :|
07:30*andythenorth glory stolen
07:30<Wolf01>Stolen mine too, he alredy saw it before XD
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07:31<Wolf01>We common paesants are always the last ones which see bleeding edge techs :)
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08:06<Wolf01>The time has come to do the game's state machine
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09:14<Wolf01>I have a little domain problem... I need to know the map width to be able to convert the coordinates of a tile to and from index (something like OTTD's TileXY() function); until now I passed the width every time I needed to do the conversion to the "Coordinates" type, I'm trying to understand if its right or if it's better to move those conversion methods directly in the map structure
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09:40<andythenorth>Wolf01: in a game, “it probably doesn’t matter"
09:40<andythenorth>put it where
09:40<andythenorth>- it’s easiest to read
09:40<andythenorth>- it makes the most sense to find it if using search or similar
09:41<andythenorth>- it doesn’t bleed information into other places that should be encapsulated cleanly in one object
09:41<andythenorth>but mostly put it where it’s easiest to read
09:41<Wolf01>It matter when you need to pass another dependency through 3 classes to use it in the last one
09:42<andythenorth>do you end up including more things all over the place?
09:43<Wolf01>I don't follow you
09:43<andythenorth>if you’re passing it through more classes, do they all have to import the original class?
09:44<Wolf01>No, I just need to load the dependency in the controller (bad, because it should be passed even there), pass it to the factory then to the tile
09:45<andythenorth>the width of the map is an intrinsic property of the map, or the entire game?
09:45<Wolf01>The single map
09:46<Wolf01>If it was for the entire game, I would have used a constant :P
09:46<andythenorth>there’s no right answer on proper domain, because you’re converting between the co-ordinate system of two domains
09:46<andythenorth>both domains are involved, therefore no clear canonical answer
09:46<andythenorth>write the code that’s easiest to delete :P
09:46<Wolf01>No, domain is intended as software design, not data design
09:47<andythenorth>it’s two objects though, no? Map, and Game
09:47<andythenorth>or so
09:51<Wolf01>I'm trying to follow this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domain-driven_design not really easy but helps to keep things well separated and working
09:53<andythenorth>oic :)
09:53<andythenorth>Enterprise Concepts :)
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09:53<andythenorth>no comment :P
09:54<Wolf01>I started to use that when I worked as web developer
09:54<andythenorth>what larks
09:55<andythenorth>actually it’s kind of how we build software in my current work
09:55<Wolf01>Also on personnel level, everybody had to do only it's work, the designer should not bother about what the developer does (except at brainstorming stage)
09:56<Eddi|zuHause> <Wolf01> I have a little domain problem... I need to know the map width to be able to convert the coordinates of a tile to and from index (something like OTTD's TileXY() function); until now I passed the width every time I needed to do the conversion to the "Coordinates" type, I'm trying to understand if its right or if it's better to move those conversion methods directly in the map structure <-- can't you encapsulate that with get-
09:56<Eddi|zuHause>methods? Tile.Index, Tile.X, Tile.Y?
09:57<Wolf01>Tile.GetCoordinates() -> [x, y] on map and Tile.GetPosition() -> [x, y] on screen
09:57<Eddi|zuHause>yes, something like that
09:58<andythenorth>it’s like ActionScript LocalToGlobal(coords) and GlobalToLocal(coords)
09:58<Wolf01>Yes
09:58<andythenorth>imho it doesn’t really matter what the domain is, it might even be a global utility
09:59<andythenorth>pick the one you can delete with least work :)
09:59<Wolf01>I use the first one for map handling (load from file, edit....) and the second for drawing
10:00<Wolf01>*drawing, movement, collisions...
10:00<andythenorth>yup
10:01<Wolf01>Also is easier to convert from coordinates to tileindex than center-of-tile to tileindex :P
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10:02<Wolf01>o/
10:02<@Alberth>hi hi
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: the point is, that this Tile-class could know the width as a class-variable without you passing it everywhere
10:03<Wolf01>I could pass it on tile initialization
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>(a class-variable is a variable that is shared between all objects of a class)
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>(so if you change it, it will be changed for all objects)
10:04<Wolf01>I have static classes and structs for that, but the map isn't static, that's the problem
10:04<andythenorth>does it change during the game loop?
10:04<andythenorth>(dimensions)
10:04<Wolf01>No
10:04<Wolf01>Or... when I load a new map it could change
10:05<andythenorth>yes
10:05<andythenorth>when you instantiate a map, you instantiate tiles?
10:05<Eddi|zuHause>yes, so when you load a game you change the member of the Tile class
10:05<andythenorth>pass it into the constructor, or similar
10:06*andythenorth wonders how that’s implented internally :P
10:06<andythenorth>implemented *
10:06<andythenorth>if you store a few extra bytes on every tile, and you have 15,000 tiles....
10:06<Eddi|zuHause>it would be the responsibility of the map constructor to adjust this variable
10:07<andythenorth>do class vars consume just the few extra bytes, or 15000 * few bytes?
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: a class-variable is not replicated like that
10:07<andythenorth>that would be a silly language design
10:07<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: it's basically a global variable, limited to the scope of the class
10:07<@Alberth>15000 * few bytes is not worth thinking about, at a desktop
10:08<andythenorth>I am old enough to have been told ‘you must look up things like that in function, to save memory'
10:08<andythenorth>which may not even have been true 15-20 years ago
10:08<@Alberth>mostly it's not true today
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the variable is "global" for all objects of the class, but invisible for everything else
10:09<@Alberth>don't know about 15-20 years ago, but euhm, that's gone
10:09<andythenorth>self-taught flash programmers teaching other programmers
10:09<andythenorth>blind leading the blind :P
10:09<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: do not assume you're more clever than the compiler's optimizer
10:09<andythenorth>I am not
10:10<andythenorth>although…flash? Director? You sure that still holds? :P
10:10<@Alberth>there is too much insane software out there :p
10:11<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: so you can focus your developer time on things that improve an order of magnitude, like saving a loop, but not about switching operations within the loop to try to get an instruction or two faster
10:11<andythenorth>or arguing with the product owner to remove the feature by better design :P
10:11<andythenorth>even more saving
10:12<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: you mean like https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12692595
10:13<andythenorth>that is one approach yes
10:14<andythenorth>I keep being surprised that lots of programmers are a bit thick
10:14<andythenorth>dunno why
10:14<andythenorth>maybe I’m an optimist :P
10:17<Wolf01>I think I could remove the coordinates thing from the tile and use diretly the map for that
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like Map.ConvertIndexToCoordinates?
10:18<Wolf01>Yes
10:18<Eddi|zuHause>that could work
10:18<Wolf01>No other downsides than a debug function and some tests I could rewrite without problem
10:19<Wolf01>The map loading already does that it's own way
10:21<Wolf01>Like Map.AddTile(x, y, tile), Map converts x, y in tileindex and stores the tile
10:23<Wolf01>Also when I'll want to save the map (from editor) I just do Map.Save(filename), I don't pass the tiles to to an another class which does the loop
10:23<Wolf01>I could inject a SaveFormat class to the Map for that
10:25*andythenorth bbl
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10:32<supermop>forum trolling again
10:33<Ethereal_Whisper>Forgetting to connect a sideline station exit lane ftw
10:33<Ethereal_Whisper>"train 426 is lost" out of nowhere
10:33<Ethereal_Whisper>"what the fuck why... oh I'm dumb"
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12:12<andythenorth>http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?/forums/topic/141169-cor-mcra-smooth-sailing/
12:13<Wolf01>Nice micro scale
12:15<andythenorth>TTD ish
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12:55-!-glx is "Loïc GUILLOUX" on +#openttd
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13:53-!-ToBeFree is "Tobias "ToBeFree" Frei" on #https-everywhere #linux @#freiwuppertal #oolite #oolite-dev #oolite-ger #openttd #tor #debian
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14:33<andythenorth>hmm, no OS X compile
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18:22<Wolf01>'night
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19:07<welshdragon>the mystery of RV's sparking in 1.6.1 continues: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=75325&p=1178324#p1178324
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20:08<Ethereal_Shiver>I'm playing OpenTTD in class instead of paying attention
20:08<Ethereal_Shiver>XD
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20:52-!-welshdragon is "Guest" on #tycoonexiles #tycoon #simsig #openttd.dev #openttd
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21:18<womble>It's called "doing homework for my logistics class"
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21:21-!-m1cr0man is "Lucas" on #openttd
21:21<Ethereal_Shiver>Lol womble
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21:23-!-heffer_ is "Felix Kaechele" on #openttd
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21:29-!-Flygon is "Flygon" on #openttd
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22:00-!-V453000 is "Vaclav Benc" on #V453000 #factoriocoop #openttd #mi-gaming #hazzard @#openttdcoop.pixel #mi-gaming-2 #openttdcoop.bots #openttdcoop.wiki #openttdcoop.stable #openttdcoop.nightly #openttdcoop.devzone #openttdcoop.dev #openttdcoop #nuts #/r/openttd
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22:49-!-supermop_ is "A CIRC user" on #tycoon #openttd
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---Logclosed Fri Oct 28 00:00:18 2016