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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-11-02

---Logopened Wed Nov 02 00:00:25 2016
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06:01<Wolf01>Drawing chan stats graphs?
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08:59<ElleKitty>*waves waves to everyone*
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09:54<ElleKitty>*picks up supermop*
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09:54<ElleKitty>*mops around til it's once more clean. super clean.*
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09:55<ElleKitty>*sets supermop aside again*
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09:58<supermop>i see
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10:01<ElleKitty>supermop Oh, hello.
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11:05<ElleKitty>Ethereal_Whisper Oh... Are you a pony?
11:06*Ethereal_Whisper throws a snowball at ElleKitty
11:06<ElleKitty>*has preemptively ducked; it's a miss*
11:07<ElleKitty>*sticks tongue out at Ethereal_Whisper*
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11:38<@Alberth>hi hi
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11:53<Ethereal_Whisper>I think my huge main station hub is a little overkill
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12:04<supermop>Ethereal_Whisper: looks like a circuit board
12:08<@Alberth>we're missing the option to turn the world upside down, so we can see the other side of the PCB :)
12:10<goodger>psh, as if the universe runs on through-hole circuitry
12:12<@Alberth>maybe a black hole is a diode :)
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12:29<andythenorth>Wolf01: did you see I fixed the merge?
12:31<Wolf01>Nope, but good
12:31<andythenorth>there is an edge case where reverting a merge makes it hard to get the commits back in later
12:31<andythenorth>because they get -1 applied, basically, on the tree
12:32<andythenorth>but that’s solvable, and I know it’s going to come up
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12:58<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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14:07*andythenorth plays openttd
14:08*V453000 writes a blog
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14:12<frosch123>vvv instead of fff this week?
14:16<V453000>I didn't say what kind of blog :P
14:21<supermop>andythenorth: GS?
14:21<andythenorth>trying sandbox
14:21<andythenorth>probably won’t last long before I get bored
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14:28<@Alberth>use maglev for everything :p
14:30<@Alberth>stacked bridge, train, good sun light, it only misses some steam
14:30<supermop>NSFW andy
14:38*andythenorth makes horse
14:40<andythenorth>horse needs cargo sprite generator
14:40<andythenorth>lacking cargos
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14:53<andythenorth>is NRT?
14:53*andythenorth could poke at sprites tonight
14:53<andythenorth>for an hour or so
14:53<andythenorth>Wolf01 frosch123 ^
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15:01<andythenorth>is it fun playing on a bigger map?
15:01<andythenorth>I am on 512x128, with high industry density
15:02<andythenorth>this iron horse roster is designed to provoke long trains (narrow gauge, low capacity)
15:04<andythenorth>big maps seem weird
15:04<ElleKitty>I like to play on smaller maps when I'm alone (or my private servers). It's cozier, and I'm more motivated to use everything on the map, instead of just picking the best stuff, leaving 90% of the map untouched
15:04<andythenorth>512x512 is vast
15:04<andythenorth>route building must be so boring
15:05<V453000>256x256 can accomodate a fuckload of trains already :>
15:06<ElleKitty>I also do a low amount of towns. Just my preference. Because most of my towns end up unused anyway, and I dont like the industry to be TOO overcrowded either
15:06<V453000>shitload to transport = shitload of trains
15:06<V453000>== win
15:06<ElleKitty>I cant remember, but I think that my current settings are... Low towns, Normal industries
15:07<ElleKitty>V453000 I am kinda susceptible to overload. As in, too much of the good thing.
15:07<V453000>MOAR rules
15:07<andythenorth>empty map
15:07<Ethereal_Whisper>Yeah, I was playing a 1024x1024 game last week, got to over 1200 trains (TL 5) and my quad track ML was jamming like fuck
15:07<ElleKitty>V453000 My Factorio production lines are equally cozy and unjammable... but I dont know how to scale up >.<
15:07<andythenorth>looks like cheating
15:08<andythenorth>where’s the challenge
15:08<Ethereal_Whisper>I started a new one instead of fixing it lol
15:08*andythenorth looks at a vast empty map
15:08<andythenorth>but, these trains are very slow
15:08<andythenorth>so eh
15:08<andythenorth>maybe it will take ages to make money
15:08<ElleKitty>andythenorth Cheating, which one of us?
15:08<Ethereal_Whisper>Now I'm playing a 2048x2048 game in which I started with a LLLRRR mainline from the start
15:08<@Alberth>that's a disadvantage of large maps, you need fast trains to make use of it
15:08<Ethereal_Whisper>andythenorth, make planes if you don't want to worry about money :P
15:08<V453000>Ethereal_Whisper: we had 8L_8R on 256x256
15:09<Ethereal_Whisper>V453000, was that PZG2013?
15:09<V453000>no, the last pro zone game
15:09<Ethereal_Whisper>Oh, 2013 was a death feeder so the ML was an anticlockwise loop wasn't it?
15:09<V453000>kind of
15:09<Ethereal_Whisper>I read your blog entry about it the other night
15:09<Ethereal_Whisper>Good read :)
15:09<V453000>was more of death than feeder
15:10<Ethereal_Whisper>I figured out an all to all entry to a terminus station with my 3 incoming lanes
15:10<V453000>that can get real fucked yes
15:10<Ethereal_Whisper>It's slow and has some blocks but it's about the best I can do without terraforming half the map
15:11<V453000>I think I did 4 line terminus once, decided to never do it again
15:11<V453000>but maybe it was not a terminus
15:11<V453000>can't remember
15:11<andythenorth>I prefer fast trains on a small map, they clear sections faster
15:11<V453000>... I probably did it again, too
15:11<andythenorth>on a big map, they have line to themselves
15:11<Ethereal_Whisper>Well, as a main pickup station, I figure I can kinda screw over the entry, give it more trains than strictly necessary (with overflows on the entry lanes to not block the MSL) as a solution, so long as it has quick exits
15:11*andythenorth tries big map, see if game lasts 30 years :P
15:11<andythenorth>last one lasted 1 year
15:12<Ethereal_Whisper>That's my philosophy on main stations. Drop station = fast entry, long exits to not block platforms behind them, but the exit can be slow-ish
15:12<Ethereal_Whisper>Main pickup station = entry can be slow, quick exits
15:12<andythenorth>ach, I reverted my tropic map patch
15:13<andythenorth>so I have 512x512 of flat desert
15:13<andythenorth>how boring
15:13<andythenorth>tropic map gen is offensive :P
15:13<V453000>SmatZ made me a version of OpenTTD which uses arctic gen in tropic
15:13<V453000>it's old as fuck though
15:14<andythenorth>I patched mine to use temperate
15:14<Ethereal_Whisper>Likewise on sidelines, if there are any shenanigans about getting back on the sideline's main double track, they can take a convoluted route to enter the station for all I care, as long as they make it back onto the SL after exiting quickly
15:14<V453000>right :D
15:15<Ethereal_Whisper>I really don't care what empty trains do as long as they aren't blocking full trains
15:15<Ethereal_Whisper>They can go on a dumb loop around the industry to get back into the station
15:15<V453000>use refit, don't have empty trains :>
15:16<Ethereal_Whisper>One exception to that is at main stations, I'll have the empty trains going back to the primary pickups have right of way over the full trains coming out of the main station
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15:16<Ethereal_Whisper>Otherwise I could create a jam where the empty trains can't leave the drop station, therefore no cargo is being produced, then the pickup station jams, then it's a clusterfuck
15:17<V453000>meh, can be solved by overflows or ... refit :P
15:18<andythenorth>map gen keeps building port industries in small closed seas
15:18<andythenorth>looks dumb
15:18<Ethereal_Whisper>I guess I'm never serving this farm:
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15:19<Ethereal_Whisper>Wait I'm using slugs this game and CL doesn't matter
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15:22<andythenorth>someone told me that this water industry thing can be solved
15:22<andythenorth>was it Eddi|zuHause ?
15:23<Eddi|zuHause>i possibly said something...
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15:25<@Alberth>firs and dying industries?
15:25<V453000>primaries should fuck off if you shit on them for long enough
15:26<andythenorth>ach, might have to make my own map :(
15:26<andythenorth>that’s absolutely awful
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15:47<andythenorth>found a map
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16:17<andythenorth>TL5 is boring
16:17*andythenorth uses TL12
16:17<andythenorth>and if I get supplies, it will be TL20
16:17<andythenorth>or more
16:18<@Alberth>map is also 2-3 times as large?
16:18<andythenorth>map is 512X512
16:19<@Alberth>must be boring to drive that ore train
16:19<Ethereal_Whisper>If you ever get into hills/curves, probably not
16:19<andythenorth>unless you stack it up
16:19<andythenorth>then it gets very interesting
16:19<Ethereal_Whisper>More axles = more crap that can go wrong
16:20*andythenorth builds train line across 400 tiles
16:20<andythenorth>usual is 32 tiles or so :P
16:20<@Alberth>loooong way
16:21<Ethereal_Whisper>Here's a boring portion of my mainline, andythenorth :
16:21<andythenorth>mine are single track
16:21<andythenorth>with passing loops
16:21<Ethereal_Whisper>Sextuple track ftw
16:25*andythenorth built a double track
16:25<andythenorth>got confused :P
16:29<andythenorth>1 engine
16:29<andythenorth>15 tile train
16:29<andythenorth>will it go slow? :P
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16:29<Ethereal_Whisper>It'll slow to a crawl going uphill and accelerate very poorly
16:30<Ethereal_Whisper>Depending on the tractive effort of the loco
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16:30<Ethereal_Whisper>I just built a really dumb station
16:30<Ethereal_Whisper>It works, but it's dumb
16:31*andythenorth experiments
16:31<Ethereal_Whisper>One platform exits terminal-style (same direction it entered) and the other platform exits RoRo style
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16:36<Ethereal_Whisper>Cargo payment rates in this climate kinda suck
16:36<andythenorth>is FIRS?
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16:39<Ethereal_Whisper>I'm using the "in a hot country" setting
16:39<Ethereal_Whisper>Granted, I think the cargos I started building my network around (maize, cassava, fruit, nuts, food) are all time-sensitive so there's a sweet spot of time in transit to maximize the cargo payment rate
16:39<supermop>less $ encourages you to build less infrastructure?
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16:40<supermop>maybe andy planned it as a feature
16:40<Ethereal_Whisper>Well, I have $395 million after 35 years
16:41<supermop>andythenorth: add corruption to IAHC
16:41<Ethereal_Whisper>Of course, like any other game I started off by building airports on opposite sides of the map, running a plane between them with the highest passenger capacity available, and planning out my network while the game was running
16:41<supermop>so Ethereal_Whisper has to use all their money paying off officials
16:41<Ethereal_Whisper>I think I generated about $10 million in aircraft revenue before I even selected which industry to build my first drop station to serve
16:41<andythenorth>I am playing same economy
16:41<andythenorth>I don’t pay that much attention to payment rates
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16:42<andythenorth>just try and make them so the chart looks about right
16:42<supermop>translate string so it is "taxes" in one economy, "graft" in another
16:42<Ethereal_Whisper>Well, food is a time-sensitive cargo I'd imagine with the payment rates
16:43<supermop>maybe taxes and bribes have interesting differences in the way they scale
16:43<Ethereal_Whisper>So I had a 4-tile train (which translates to 6 wagons since it's a dual-headed loco) just deliver a load of food from literally one corner of the map almost all the way to the other, and it paid $142k
16:43<Ethereal_Whisper>On a 2048x2048 map
16:43<supermop>probaably all the food spoiled
16:43<Ethereal_Whisper>In contrast I've played on 512x512 maps where a metal train going from one corner to the other, 5 tiles long, earned about $750k per drop
16:44<supermop>same train on a 256x256 map pays more i bet
16:44<Ethereal_Whisper>I'm even in 2085 so inflation is a thing
16:44<supermop>inflation is broken
16:44<Ethereal_Whisper>Well, except for the very early part of the game, money's never an issue in OpenTTD
16:44<Ethereal_Whisper>The challenge (and fun) to me is to build flowing cargo networks
16:45<supermop>by design it only 'works' for original industries, original map size, original game era, and original vehicles
16:45<supermop>but it primarily works by effectively reducing cargo payment rates over time
16:46<Ethereal_Whisper>Good, fast cargo flow is ultimately more profitable anyway, but if I were on the board for a transit company in real life who said "let's widen our double track mainline to quadruple track because we'll eventually make more money" they'd tell me to fuck off
16:46<supermop>so the same trainload at the same speed pays less in 2050 than in 1950
16:46<supermop>less in real costs, more in nominal dollars
16:47<Ethereal_Whisper>I'd imagine that's because you're expected to deliver it faster
16:47<Ethereal_Whisper>Compared to the base game, using the train set I'm using (mostly so I could use a type of train that goes full speed through even a curve length of 1), I'm using 131mph trains in 2085
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16:48<Ethereal_Whisper>If this were vanilla they'd be expecting me to use 300mph or 400mph trains (Lev3 or Lev4)
16:48<supermop>and they would expect you to stop playing in 2050
16:48<Ethereal_Whisper>I don't really like the Lev4 though, I'll use the Lev3 if I'm playing late-game vanilla
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16:49<Ethereal_Whisper>With the Lev4's poor acceleration, if I don't want to jam my backbone I have to give very long priorities, which ends up jamming my side lines instead
16:50<supermop>'real' inflation has some interesting motivational effects though, even without the inescapable penalties of TT inflation
16:50*andythenorth has 35mph trains on 400 tile long routes
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16:51<supermop>in that economist mainly see inflation as a tool to encourage spending and investment in by discouraging sitting on piles of cash
16:51<Ethereal_Whisper>I need to find a copper refinery to start delivering to
16:51<andythenorth>Ethereal_Whisper: deliver it to mine?
16:51<supermop>hence why bank of japan has been desperately trying to weaken the yen to reach 2% inflation for 6 years now
16:51<andythenorth>mine needs more copper
16:52<andythenorth>what changed in station loading?
16:52<supermop>Japanese economy is slow because people and companies have plenty of money and just save it
16:52<andythenorth>now a train arrives with a refit order
16:52<andythenorth>and it loads
16:52<andythenorth>it used to not do that
16:53<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: that's a symptom, not a cause
16:53<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: kind of both, in a circle
16:53<andythenorth>am I just seeing coincidence, or did someone fix it?
16:53*andythenorth looks in logs
16:54<supermop>also weak yen helps exports too of course, but Japan has a problem with lack of domestic consumer and corporate spending despite significant wealth and stability
16:55<andythenorth>maybe it’s coincidence
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16:55<andythenorth>longer trains
16:56<supermop>and has the problem that foreign investors buy the yen as a safe haven, which keeps propping up it's value
17:00<supermop>but i mean that would still provide some incentive in the game - you have $100M in 1950? Great, better spend it now because $100M in 1980 barely buys you anything
17:01<supermop>even if costs and revenue grow somewhat proportionally
17:02<supermop>and maybe the actual rate fluctuates according to the smooth economy setting
17:02<supermop>because if there is a global recession, train driver salaries probably stay flat
17:03<@Alberth>they never strike anyway :p
17:04<supermop>Alberth: also because you built such a great network, now they can commute from a distant small town instead of having to rent an expensive apartment in the city too
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17:06<Ethereal_Whisper>I grew up in suburbia, but the metro area I grew up in had shit for transport
17:07<Ethereal_Whisper>Our definition of transport was shitty freeways that were always jammed unless you drove on them at 3 a.m.
17:07<Ethereal_Whisper>Anyway, I need to go cut some firewood
17:07<supermop>Ethereal_Whisper: they have a new train now though, right?
17:08<supermop>andythenorth: baux and chem from bulk terminal is boring in big economy
17:08<supermop>1 train from terminal to alu plant and you've got full production right away
17:08<supermop>unless that is intended for bootstrapping
17:08<andythenorth>didn’t think of that
17:09<andythenorth>needed more bauxite
17:09<supermop>bc thats how i start every game now
17:09<andythenorth>needed more chemicals
17:09<andythenorth>big economy is screwed every which way
17:09<andythenorth>play it with BusyBee, or don’t play it :)
17:10<supermop>play it for passengers and treat the industries as incidental decoration
17:10<supermop>slash town growth tools
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17:18<supermop>saw a great book for you the other day andythenorth
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17:21<andythenorth>nice photos
17:22<supermop>its a stunningly beautiful book
17:22<supermop>but also has interesting documentation of very old lime kilns
17:22<supermop>like 18th C
17:22<supermop>through 1960s
17:25<andythenorth>but loops were TL18
17:27<supermop>honk honk
17:36<andythenorth>“primary (refit) -> secondary (refit) -> dropoff somehwere near primary” is crap on long routes
17:36<andythenorth>station rating is so low at secondary
17:38<supermop>need something timetables to be waiting there whenever train isnt
17:39<supermop>heqs mining truck
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17:39<andythenorth>piglet *
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17:39<supermop>can i generate more rivers?
17:40<andythenorth>or that FIRS station rating hack
17:40<andythenorth>which I removed
17:40<andythenorth>it was made for these long routes with slow trains :P
17:40<supermop>this isn't enough and dont want to manually draw them in
17:40<andythenorth>no you can’t generate more rivers :)
17:41<supermop>i will just have to cry them
17:41<argoneus>good evening train friends
17:42<andythenorth>is salt valid on a salad?
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17:45<supermop>hmm i've done on an arugula salad
17:45<supermop>thats rocket for you
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17:49<supermop>takes forever to correct hydrologically unsound rivers and valleys
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22:50<supermop_>distracting myself from election forecasts by playing sia on repeat
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23:47<Supercheese>Today's election forecast is: Cloudy with a chance of shitstorms
23:48<Supercheese>I can see why you want a distraction
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---Logclosed Thu Nov 03 00:00:27 2016