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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-11-10

---Logopened Thu Nov 10 00:00:38 2016
00:28<Flygon>Oh jeeze
00:28<Flygon>Placing water is gonna be awkward in New Zealand
00:28<Flygon>Soooooooo much water
00:39<debdog>I wonder how big that custom map is?
00:39<debdog>in tiles
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00:55<Flygon>debdog: 2048*4096
00:55<Flygon>Are you New Zealander? I need to know if I screwed the heightmap up before I apply the Rivers
00:55<Flygon>Then the Cities
00:55<debdog>no, I am in germany
00:55<Flygon>Then the Industries respectively
00:56<Flygon>I wanted to do my part of Australia first
00:56<Flygon>But it's not a lone island
00:56<Flygon>Which makes things difficult
00:56<Flygon>I'd want to do the ENTIRE Australia
00:56<Flygon>But I'd wanna wait for 8192*8192 or 16k*16k support
00:56<Flygon>Or - When we hit map sizes SO big
00:56<Flygon>Timepatches are mandatory
00:56<Flygon> are 64-bit OpenTTDs
01:02<debdog>64bit ones ain't common yet?
01:05<Flygon>People'll complain if a feature is unavilable on 32-bit because of the fact that the RAM won't be large enough
01:50<Flygon>I wish the scenario editor's land generation tools weren't so rough
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01:58<Flygon>The Up and Down tools not being able to work long distances lengthways or... yeah, is really annoyinhg
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02:54<Flygon>These lakes
02:54<Flygon>Landscaping in scenario is aaargh
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04:34<Flygon>aaa OpenTTD needs a 'paintbucket' tool for lakes
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05:13<Eddi|zuHause>make one...
05:20<Flygon>:U Just because I know what an interrupt is doesn't mean I'm a coder
05:23<V453000>doesn't water spread already?
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05:26<Flygon>River type
05:26<Flygon>These are mountain lakes
05:29*V453000 is modelling AsiaStar :>
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06:11<Flygon>Oh jeeze
06:11<Flygon>I'm so boned
06:12<Flygon>I gotta place this major metropolis...
06:13<V453000>can't build much shit in that area
06:14<Flygon>I'm gonna have to bullshit out some flat land
06:14<Flygon>Fuck realism, people gotta play this garbage
06:14<Flygon>IRL, the entire city is utterly insane
06:14<Flygon>It's bult like something in Japan
06:14<Flygon>Every usable crevace used
06:15<Wolf01>Bad TT limit to build on slopes
06:16<Flygon>It cannot help
06:16<Flygon>For IRL reference, Wellington, New Zealand
06:16<Wolf01>Yeah, I looked for it
06:17<Flygon>The rest of New Zealand seems... er
06:17<Flygon>Maybe I should've just done my first scenario attempt as Victoria
06:17<Wolf01>I addressed that limit allowing to build sloped stations
06:17<Flygon>Less hills >_>
06:17<goodger>you mean uninhabited :p
06:17<Flygon>Wait, you can now build stations INSIDE slopes?
06:18<Flygon>Tilted platforms
06:18<Wolf01>No, I only made a patch for that
06:19<Flygon>Well, graphics sets will need to catch up when it's implemented proper...
06:19<argoneus>horizontal tracks over slopes when
06:20<argoneus>also good morning train friends
06:20<Flygon>That makes life a FUCKTONNE easier
06:20<Flygon>Menta argon
06:20<Flygon>It sounds cooler :U
06:21<Wolf01>andy didn't like them
06:23<Flygon>Sloped stations do exist IRL...
06:23<Flygon>Just look at Japan >______>
06:23<Flygon>Standard railway
06:24<Flygon>Remember that railway before the bypass where EMUs needed a pair of locomotives attached otherwise they'd get no adhesion?
06:24<Wolf01>The problem about TT is that you can't say how much slope is a slope
06:25<Flygon>Thing is
06:25<Flygon>Curved platforms would also be a lifesaver
06:25<Flygon>But that also necessitates diagonal platforms (well... you know what I mean)
06:26<Wolf01>Because if a train could climb that slope it should be almost plain (or you'll need rack/cable) and if a train can use that slope it can also stop at a station, but the same slope could be seen as an almost vertical wall because you won't have mountains with 4% slopes
06:27<Flygon>In the end
06:27<Flygon>It's one of those acceptable breaks from realism
06:27<Flygon>If the player plays unrealistically, that's their dig
06:27<Wolf01>So, I don't see why there can't be a station on a slope
06:27<Flygon>OpenTTD physics is kinda borky anyway
06:31<Wolf01>An open-lomo with ttd play style (as lomo lacks almost all features of tt) might be the best game ever
06:37<Wolf01> :D
06:39<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... maybe i screwed myself over... this coal mine doesn't seem to accept my ship route
06:39<Wolf01> <- when we'll have NRT in trunk I'll start to fiddle with state machines to try making a compact version of this
06:40<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: try to keep it modular, so you don't have to fit one whole crossing on the map, but can vary it
06:41<Flygon> At least Christchurch is managable
06:42<Flygon>I should prolly determine what housing sets I wanna use before placing cities, shouldn't I
06:45<Flygon>Maybe I should just keep the scenario as default as possible, and let the player add whatever they want
06:47<Wolf01> speaking of real world...
06:48<SpComb>1up'd with a triple-decker?
06:49<Flygon>Oh for fucks sake, Dunedin
06:49<Flygon>Germany, explain.
06:49<Flygon>Why do you need THAT much bus?
06:50<goodger>simple: most of the running costs of public transport is in the driver and maintenance of traction equipment, so expanding the capacity of individual vehicles to reduce the number of vehicles in service makes it much cheaper to run overall
06:52<Flygon>Okay, yes, that works in a world where the laws of physics don't come into effect
06:52<Flygon>But Germany isn't OpenTTD :U
06:53<goodger>the passenger sections weigh virtually nothing compared to the traction equipment
06:53<Flygon>Passengers weigh a lot duiring peak hour :U
06:53<Flygon>Jus because a vehicle is designed for 70 passengers, doesn't mean it can't fit 130 passengers and 4 Prams
06:53<goodger>hence double-decker trains with a weight/seat ratio so much lower than their single-decker equivalents
06:54<Flygon>If you filled that triple decker bus to the brim with a crush load
06:54<Flygon>It's centre of gravity would probably be around the floor of the second deck
06:54<Wolf01>Speaking of more important things, would be possible to make the depot having a built in path signal? So you place it and train starts if they find a path without having to place a pbs signal just outside of it?
06:54<Flygon>Driver steers a bit too hard?
06:54<Flygon>Phseeeew ksssshh
06:54<Flygon>Instant disaster
06:55<goodger>Wolf01: don't they already? I certainly use them that way :|
06:55<Flygon>It's happened here with Hobart's 1067mm DD Trams
06:55<Wolf01>Yes, but you need at least one pbs signal in the line
06:55<Eddi|zuHause>ah... now it's using it... not sure if it's because i bought another ship
06:55<goodger>that is, if all the exits of the block are path signals, the PBS overlay shows the train exiting the depot as using PBS
06:55<Flygon>Single bogie
06:55<Flygon>They were completely nuts
06:56<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, 20 minute rule? But it shouldn't apply as strations start accept as soon as they see the route can deliver the goods
06:56<Flygon>(Photographed during WWII, clearly)
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: as i'm told, the 20 minue rule is gone
06:56<Flygon>But, yeah
06:56<Flygon>By the end of the Hobart system's life
06:56<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: with 1 ship, the route was 77 minutes, and now it's 39 minutes
06:57<Flygon>They deliberately SDized the Trams, not because they had less demand (they still had crush load DD Trams)
06:57<Flygon>But because there was SO many passengers on the top deck
06:57<Wolf01>If "line usage" shown it was used, it might be just that the destination didn't accept the stuff at the moment
06:57<Flygon>It was unsafe as hell
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>it said "no"
06:57<Eddi|zuHause>and it switched to "yes" a short time after i bought the new ship
06:59<Wolf01>Too much travel time
06:59<Wolf01>Happened to me too
06:59<Flygon> Horse and Cart, Trams, and Cars.... late 50s were an intriguing time
07:00<Wolf01>I started to spam buses because I've seen that more of them you place, more passengers will use the line, don't be cheap :P
07:21<Flygon> Enough work on it for tonight. I'm sure y'all can see where I fucked up. :P
07:39<Wolf01>One thing I hate is that cities build roads and houses over stations and tracks, so when you have to simply add a catenary to a track you need to demolish a building
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07:40<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, station bounding boxes seem a bit off
07:41<Wolf01>Also upgrading a station makes all passengers go away
07:41<Wolf01>And please, don't try to add a signal near a train, it will reverse... empty
07:41<Wolf01>Even if you add it just after the train
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07:45<Wolf01>Also, how do you make use all the tracks of a station?
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>ok, shipment of coal making crazy amounts of money
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>use waypoints?
07:45<Wolf01>I have a terminus station which is used by many trains of the same route
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>you can probably also use signals as waypoints, like in train fever
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>oh, yeah... one line one platform
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>try duplicating the entry, so you go ABAB
07:46<Wolf01>I was able to do it before, but I can't replicate
07:46<Eddi|zuHause>then every second train will use the other platform
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>now, need to do something with that iron :/
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07:48<Wolf01>Tools, and deliver to city before coal mine stops producing
07:48<Wolf01>It's a cascading effect, I hate when a step stops working because all the chain breaks
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>no tool factory nearby, but i might be able to hook up this goods thing
07:50<Eddi|zuHause>still haven't built a train route
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08:28<Wolf01> :DDDDDD
08:30<goodger>I know it's offtopic but I wrote this and I feel it's important:
08:34<Wolf01>"If you have a second train entering the station on the same line, then you've got your wagon capacity too low. Increase the length of your trains. Reduce the train count."
08:35<Wolf01>Yes, because having a 50 wagons train travelling the whole map is better than having four 12 wagon trains with a 4 platforms terminus station used by a single line
08:35<@peter1138>Looks cool though
08:35<Wolf01>Ok, it might be a nonsense having 4 trains loading at the same time, but if the game punishes you if you don't transport it in time...
08:36<Wolf01>This is exaclty a case where the feature is "play as developer want" which doesn't fit a sandbox
08:37<Wolf01>And they excuse with a "is because we wanted to put the cargo in the platform, so we need to know where the train will stop"
08:39*andythenorth has 20 wagon trains in current game
08:40<andythenorth>20 tile *
08:40<Wolf01>1 train per line is the solution
08:40<Wolf01>4 platforms to 4 platforms, 4 trains, 4 lines
08:41<Wolf01>And magically the route planner becomes of second importance, just assign the orders like on orifinal TT, every train has it's own orders
08:43<andythenorth>is TF any good?
08:43<Wolf01>It is, but you need to avoid some stupid nonsense like this one
08:44<Wolf01>Because rules that apply on some stations mignt not apply on other
08:44<Wolf01>Also, I just switched to electric and I misses a piece of track... but where?
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08:53<goodger>that is one of openttd's annoying little things
08:54<Wolf01>Yes, but here you have the upgrade tool which can upgrade the entire line at once, but only if you rotate the map at 123° with 33.33333333° elevation and -2x zoom
08:54<Wolf01>And still fails in some bits
08:56<Wolf01>It could tell you where the problem is but since the pathfinder can't find a path the whole line disappear
08:56<Wolf01>At least in ottd you will find the train stopped in front of the tile with missing catenary
08:58<Eddi|zuHause>i'm not entirely sure why you'd need 1 platform per train
08:58<Wolf01>[14:37:39] <Wolf01> And they excuse with a "is because we wanted to put the cargo in the platform, so we need to know where the train will stop" <-
08:58<Wolf01>Read the thread I linked
09:02<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... stupid town broke my ship routes, and i have no money to fix them :/
09:03<Eddi|zuHause>also, menu music is not affected by the music volume
09:03<Wolf01>Loud as hell
09:05<Eddi|zuHause>need to find an autosave
09:06<Eddi|zuHause>think i found one
09:07<Eddi|zuHause>there should be a warning about broken routes... not just stupid main connections
09:08<Wolf01>Yes, there's the warning
09:09<Wolf01>But it's "somewhere the route is interrupted" like the chrismas lights
09:12<Wolf01>Aaaaaaaaah the fucking platform changes at each travel, need to use a waypoint to fix that... 4 waypoints
09:19<Eddi|zuHause>then maybe i didn't see the warning?
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09:55<supermop>head a bit clearer today
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10:00<Alkel_U3>did you get hammered after the election results? :-)
10:11<supermop>yesterday i soent 4 hours drawing rivers and correcting 'dead end' valleys in a height map, then went home and spent a couple hours doing speed and braking tests of various trains in the YAAM patch
10:12<supermop>just doing mindless meditative activities
10:13<andythenorth>draw some horse
10:16<supermop>andythenorth: iron crane
10:16<supermop>chrysanthemum horse?
10:16<andythenorth>I need to finish at least one roster before starting another :)
10:17<supermop>you draw africa/andes ill draw japan
10:17<andythenorth>I prefer you draw africa/andes/japan :)
10:17*andythenorth is not 100% serious
10:19<supermop>and swiss horse and canada horse and russia horse too
10:22<andythenorth>yes those
10:23<supermop>maybe for research ill move to the andes, drink chicha and take ayahuasca, join the shining path for a few years
10:28<Wolf01>Draw NRT
10:28<Wolf01>What is missing next?
10:28<Wolf01>- No houses along this road
10:28<supermop>do road types need sprites?
10:28<Wolf01>- No intersections
10:28<Eddi|zuHause>supermop: that's probably far enough away from any floods through rising sea level
10:28<Wolf01>- No curves
10:28<Wolf01>- No road O_O
10:29<supermop>is the Shining Path still around? can i start a franchise in the Catskills?
10:34<supermop>anyway i have an 8-20 year plan. next 18-24 months will be the hard part
10:35<supermop>andythenorth: what's your priority draw list
10:36<supermop>also maybe i can draw new firs hotel sprites?
10:36<andythenorth>or vineyard
10:36<andythenorth>there was talking of grander hotels
10:37<andythenorth>lake louise style
10:37<andythenorth>but if they were all wedding cake buildings, it would look silly in game :)
10:37<supermop>the red-brown lodge looks out of place in some times/contexts
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10:38<supermop>i mean a hotel can be different things, but as an industry in it's own right i always sort of imagined it as a lodge/resort type think
10:39<supermop>like an old TB sanitorium on a european mountain, or a WPA lodge in a National Park in the western US
10:41<supermop>as a regular city or suburban hotel it looks a bit odd
10:41<andythenorth>it has no real layout variations
10:42<andythenorth>I am a bit loathe to vary graphics, although there is precedent (grain mill / windmill)
10:42<andythenorth>ideal would be something like ‘variations on a theme'
10:42<andythenorth>same basic shape, maybe use company colour, or gardens or something to vary it
10:43<andythenorth>there is precedent for adapting to terrain
10:43<supermop>the temperate base graphics have a 60s ish hotel
10:43<andythenorth>forests show cactus in desert :P
10:43<supermop>with the pool on the roof
10:43<supermop>peyote plantation?
10:44*andythenorth must go out, biab
10:44<andythenorth>if you get inspired let me know
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10:55<supermop>could also draw more sprites for yellow signals guy
10:55<supermop>like european semaphores, american position lights...
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11:18<supermop>andythenorth: grain mill varies by build year, or random?
11:19<supermop>CC hotel:
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11:34<andythenorth>supermop: grain mill varies by build year
11:37<supermop>whats easier, 1860, 1920, 1960 hotels each 2x2 that just get built by year,
11:38<supermop>or a few different layouts
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12:21<andythenorth>supermop: few different layouts
12:22<andythenorth>the date thing is a bit cranky
12:22<andythenorth>depending on start year
12:22<supermop>easier to have 3 different 'hotel' industries?
12:24<supermop>i guess if you start in 1960 you might want some 19th century hotels around the map, but no new ones to be built..
12:33<andythenorth>grain mill tries to do that, but it’s faff
12:35<andythenorth>is NRT?
12:36*frosch123 is busy this weekend
12:37<frosch123>so, nothing from my end in next 10 days :)
12:37*andythenorth is on holiday
12:38<andythenorth>but that doesn’t preclude making ottd
12:38<andythenorth>but I am refactoring Iron Horse currently :P
12:42<@Alberth>factor cat
12:43*andythenorth wonders about an NRT branch for vehicle compatibility
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13:31<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, 260M, you need some? :P
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13:43<supermop>Wolf01: ill take some
14:08<Wolf01>frosch123, andythenorth, what next?
14:09<frosch123>either vehicles, or more commands
14:13<andythenorth>motivating if we can see vehicles running around
14:14<Wolf01>What is expected? Tram running on trams and trucks on road?
14:14<frosch123>heqs running on trails and normal road, other rv not running on trails
14:15<frosch123>blue rv not running on red road
14:15<Wolf01>Need a grf
14:16<andythenorth>I can branch Road Hog
14:16<andythenorth>I have to cook dinner in a minute eh
14:16<andythenorth>anyone could branch Road Hog :D
14:16<andythenorth>nml might need extending for extra vehicle props?
14:18<frosch123>i have no idea whether rv work the same as trains with respect to track compatibility
14:18<andythenorth>maybe we need an exploratory hard-coded patch first
14:18<andythenorth>no grf
14:19<frosch123>given that all the grf loading is already present, i don't think that makes it easier
14:20<frosch123>but in any case we need a command to build a depot for another roadtype
14:23<Wolf01>Did you see the pull request? If it's all ok I could merge it into road-and-tram
14:25<andythenorth>Wolf01: merged
14:28*andythenorth does evil
14:28<andythenorth>python supports evil rather too easily
14:29<Wolf01>Shit... git stuck again, I can't pull because of not existent uncommitted change
14:30<Wolf01>"See output window for details"... nothing there
14:32<Wolf01>Reset does nothing
14:32<andythenorth>git st?
14:32<andythenorth>git reset --hard?
14:32<Wolf01>I don't have changes
14:33<Wolf01>Nothing to reset
14:33<debdog>git status
14:33<Wolf01>Your branch is behind 'origin/wolf' by 14 commits, and can be fast-forwarded.
14:33<Wolf01> (use "git pull" to update your local branch)
14:33<Wolf01>nothing to commit, working tree clean
14:34<Wolf01>It's what I'm trying to do :D
14:34<Wolf01>The stupid VS plugin is broken
14:34<Wolf01>"plugin"... the integrated feature
14:35<Wolf01>All magically works after doing pull from cli
14:36*andythenorth only uses git in shell
14:36<debdog>there's another way aside from shell?
14:36<Wolf01>When the ide offers help...
14:37<debdog>oh, ide. I am not a coder
14:42*andythenorth is devloloper
14:42<andythenorth>although repeating that isn’t funny any more :P
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14:46<Wolf01>Save-load seem to work, I'll fix removal of different roadtypes now
14:47<andythenorth>eh? what did I just type? :P
14:47<andythenorth>was supposed to be just :)
14:47<andythenorth>such refactoring
14:47<debdog>lol, close enough
14:52<supermop>ok, after several days of work, I think I finally corrected all of the hydrologically unsound river and valley systems on this heightmap
14:55<andythenorth>should rewrite the generator :)
14:55<andythenorth>landscape gen is crap :)
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14:59<Wolf01>Uhm.. macro with macro
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15:08<andythenorth>pyflakes :)
15:08<andythenorth>hates import *
15:10<Wolf01>ClearTile_Road why iterate throught roadtypes when the purpose is to remove everything on that tile?
15:11<andythenorth>do you have to check who owns them?
15:12<Wolf01>Mmmh, maybe
15:13<Wolf01>Also, do you want road removal like rails (you can remove any roadtype) or selective removal?
15:14<andythenorth>that was discussed once
15:15<andythenorth>any type I think
15:15<Wolf01>Good, less work for me :P
15:15<andythenorth>the road / tram split will need handled of course :D
15:15<Wolf01>Now I need to figure out how to change that macro
15:20<V453000>Yo humenz
15:20<supermop>andythenorth: this was real heightmap
15:23<andythenorth>yo V453000
15:23<andythenorth>V453000: are you a bot?
15:23<V453000>I yes
15:25<andythenorth>can I crash you with malformed input?
15:30<supermop>but noise or something led to there still being lots of sinkholes/blocked channels in valleys
15:30<supermop>rivers not flowing to coast or in sensible channels
15:31<supermop>cant the generator also take 10,000 years of anthropology into account when placing towns
15:32<supermop>now i have to go through these valleys and decide where humans would have settles
15:34<supermop>and of course neolithic people will settle in hilltops for defense, iron age people by waterways, industrial people by resources or connections to other settlements
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15:36<V453000>Fuck off sequence initialized, print "wish humenz good night"
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16:22<supermop>any trains you want kitbashed andythenorth ?
16:25<andythenorth>need some wagons
16:25<andythenorth>but I am automating cargo generation, so now isn’t an ideal point, the spritesheets might change :)
16:26<andythenorth>the needed ones are hacks of existing sprites though
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20:52<supermop_>yo Supercheese
20:55<supermop_>wondering if i should buy a new computer for this TF game
21:05<Eddi|zuHause>that's usually the wrong sort of thought.
21:41<supermop_>need some excuse to buy a new computer eventually
21:42<supermop_>yellow signal accelleration patch has some interesting effects
21:44<supermop_>one being that you basically need a stretch of desert to build a test track
21:44<supermop_>to try out new trains
21:46<supermop_>another being that you may need to adjust your ideas of scale around cities, as trains will crawl into stations under default settings
21:47<supermop_>and a basic terminus will have a drastically reduced capacity to turn around trains
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23:48<Eddi|zuHause>so, it's now 1900 and i'm finally able to make decent money
23:49<Eddi|zuHause>using mostly ships
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 11 00:00:39 2016