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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-11-12

---Logopened Sat Nov 12 00:00:40 2016
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02:55<V453000>searching for north
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03:11<andythenorth>making an Arctic Basic economy is not very interesting :P
03:13<andythenorth>lo V453000
03:13<V453000>andythenorth how would one go about a snake script which converts 32bpp to 8bpp?
03:14<andythenorth>the actual sprites?
03:14<V453000>I am guessing I would first take the rgb values of the indexes, create RGB ranges to filter
03:14<V453000>and then assign them
03:14<andythenorth>sounds like a proper way to do it
03:14<andythenorth>blunt way is to assign a palette to an RGB image
03:14<andythenorth>forced conversion
03:14<V453000>well photoshop already does that and it's shit
03:14<V453000>in places where alpha isn't 0 or 1
03:15<andythenorth>it will likely be always shit, unless your 32bpp palette is limited also
03:15<V453000>of course
03:15<V453000>but it won't look downright broken
03:15<andythenorth>unlikely you’ll write a better algorithm than adobe
03:15<V453000>no but I will handle the alpha
03:16<V453000>see, in places where it's not fully opaque I could just make the base colour use a different shade in the palette
03:16<andythenorth>what is that even :P
03:16<V453000>it's a conversion made by taking the PNG with alpha, putting blue under it, converting to palette
03:16<V453000>so the places where the shadow is half-transparent, it instead takes dark blue instead of alpha ... obviously
03:16<andythenorth>that’s crap
03:16<V453000>with white it isn't much better
03:17<V453000>or with any other colour
03:17<andythenorth>doesn’t the 8bpp palette have some alpha colours?
03:17<andythenorth>some stations use them?
03:17<V453000>of course not
03:17<V453000>that's defined in the code
03:17<V453000>it's an alpha mask
03:17*andythenorth has never even tried to do that
03:18<andythenorth>anyway, you want to detect all pixels with alpha < 1
03:18<V453000>me neither but I am pretty confident it is done that way
03:18<andythenorth>and then replace them all with blue
03:18<V453000>well I will detect all with alpha >50 and <50
03:18<V453000>but yes
03:18<V453000>under 50 will get removed, over 50 will get darkened shade of the base colour, and set alpha to 1
03:18<V453000>or something like that
03:19<andythenorth>I am about to go offline
03:19<V453000>enjoy your day :)
03:19<andythenorth>but PIL masks are usually just black and white
03:19<andythenorth>but you can make one on demand
03:19<andythenorth>Road Hog does it to mask cargo
03:20<andythenorth>L193 or so
03:21<andythenorth>the lambda is converting pink to black
03:21<V453000>vehicle_cargo_rows_image.putpalette(DOS_PALETTE) this line is important for me :)
03:21<V453000>was wondering how
03:21<andythenorth>you just need a bigger range of values to check, and you need to check in the alpha layer, not the single palette image
03:21<andythenorth>.point() I think replaces pixels point-for-point
03:22<andythenorth>can’t remember
03:22<V453000>I have a function f or that already
03:22<V453000>setpixel I think it is
03:22<andythenorth>they have varying speeds, you need the fastest ultimately
03:22*andythenorth must go bye
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05:01<andythenorth>V453000: range replacement I do shitloads of
05:01<andythenorth>for recolouring cargos and stuff
05:02<andythenorth>I just do dumb colour maps with dicts
05:02<andythenorth>find colour: replace with colour
05:03<andythenorth>also if they’re just in neat sequences of 8 or so:
05:03<andythenorth>that’s a dict comprehension, the result is a dict with 8 values in
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05:12<Wolf01>Shit 2 seconds late
05:15<@Alberth>to compensate, leave 2 seconds earlier
05:20<@Alberth>V453000: if you have a 32bpp sprite, a 8 bit palette, and a definition of 'closest', it should be quite trivial
05:22<@Alberth>or rather a notion of "distance" between 32bpp colour and a 8bpp colour
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05:28<@Alberth>lo andy
05:33<andythenorth>python doesn’t need ; chars :P
05:33<andythenorth>silly andythenorth
05:34*andythenorth has 91 ‘legacy’ spritesheets and 49 ‘current’
05:34<andythenorth>what I need is 140 ‘current’
05:35<@Alberth>maybe you're converting in the wrong direction? :p
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06:58<andythenorth>‘legacy’ can’t fit 10/8 vehicles on
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07:36<V453000>I just realized it isn't so straight forward to be able to tell if colours are actually similar in RGB
07:41<Wolf01>A topic I followed to know how to use colours in development suggested to use the Lab colour space
07:42<Wolf01>Mainly for blend modes
07:43<V453000>idk if lab is enough
07:43<V453000> ?
07:43<V453000>is this even valid somehow?
07:44<V453000>since I am "just"comparing palette colours to some other colours, both electronic without screen shit?
07:45<Wolf01>IDK, really, I still have troubles recolouring my game objects with a mask :P
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07:49<V453000>the problem is converting from 32bpp to 8bpp in general
07:51<Wolf01>Lol, calculation in colour spaces use immaginary colours like complex numbers in math
08:08<Eddi|zuHause>imaginary numbers are fun
08:10<V453000>for starters I will probably interpret RGB as cube and just compare the distances between points
08:11<V453000>if that fails then maybe diving into this CIE bullfuck
08:13<@Alberth>my first simplistic attempt would be sum of differences in r,g, and b component, multiplied by the conversion factor used for greyscale conversion, as the latter is an indication how strong we perceive colour differences in a channel
08:13<Wolf01>TL;DR contrast?
08:14<V453000>yes something like that
08:14<@Alberth>contrast, but for each colour component individually
08:18<V453000>sounds reasonable
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08:19<@Alberth>maybe take the square, to make many small differences favourable against one big difference
08:19<V453000>I think distance in cube is a good measure
08:20<V453000>then I will just make some comparing function which sorts the distances "closest" to the index colours
08:20<V453000>and list the RGB possibilities
08:20<V453000>list will be long. :D
08:20<V453000>I wonder how fast will the computer output the 16.7M values
08:22<@Alberth>don't pre-compute
08:22<@Alberth>just test every colour that you find against the 256 options
08:23<V453000>wouldn't it be faster with pre-computed list? Assuming FUCKING LARGE spritesheets?
08:23<V453000>bridges are 16384 x 3200 for example
08:23<V453000>landscape 4864 x 8000
08:23<@Alberth>you don't want just Z1 for 8bpp?
08:24<V453000>tracks 16000 x 3840
08:24<V453000>ah zoom
08:24<@Alberth>normal zoom, as in original
08:24<V453000>well, could do yes
08:24<@Alberth>@calc 16000*3840
08:24<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 61440000
08:24<V453000>but still, whether pre-process or not sounds like it matters little in this scale, right?
08:24<@Alberth>@calc 2**24
08:24<@DorpsGek>Alberth: 16777216
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08:28<@Alberth>V453000: <-- gimp conversion, how does that look?
08:29<Wolf01>Converted from?
08:29<V453000>Alberth: the general colour conversion is fine
08:29<V453000>the issue is alpha, and having control over it
08:30<Wolf01>Yup, it seem to suffer from the gif-ify effect
08:30<@Alberth>right, so why not just fix alpha then, and then apply photoshop, gimp, whatever?
08:31<V453000>because I want the alpha to actually do something, like if the pixel is pure black, but half-transparent, I want the output pixel to be half-gray
08:31<@Alberth>Wolf01: 1/11th original size is not for free :)
08:31<V453000>idk if it actually makes sense to do
08:32<@Alberth>ok, fix alpha + colour then (for the non-opaque pixels)
08:32<Wolf01>Mmmh, it will be gray only with a white background
08:33<V453000>fixing alpha + colour isn't really doable in any graphical program as far as I know
08:33<V453000>well maybe
08:33<@Alberth>pretty simple in Pillow
08:34<@Alberth>and a whole lot simpler than colour conversion to 8bpp
08:34<@Alberth>although it can be fun to figure it how it works
08:34<V453000>lets try and see
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08:49<V453000>maybe defining x4 zoom 8bpp isn't a terrible idea either
08:55<@peter1138>we should've just stopped at 1x 8bpp :p
08:55<@peter1138>32bpp is a waste
08:57<V453000>+1 fuck all this
08:57<V453000>it always looks better in the end anyway
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09:31<@Alberth>hmm, asking for the other end of a bridge while dealing with a tunnel, doesn't work :p
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09:36<argoneus>good morning train friends
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10:28<supermop_>yo andy
10:28<supermop_>trump thread has been bike-shedded
10:29<supermop_>time to play with trains then
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10:53<Wolf01> XDDDD
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12:38<supermop_>V453000: nice asiastar
12:38<V453000>working on moar
12:44<V453000>it's far from finished but I will probably just plop down concepts of all trains now
12:44<V453000>because I have sketches of all of them on paper
12:44<V453000>and I can finalize them at some random points
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13:10<supermop_>andythenorth: 136knh gondola shows no cargo sprites for wood or paper in arctic basic
13:14<andythenorth>which roster?
13:14<andythenorth>actually, it’s irrelevant, IH gondolas only show a tarp or bulk, currently
13:14<andythenorth>working on that currently
13:15<supermop_>a full car does seem to show a tarp
13:15<supermop_>anything less than 35 t shows empty gondola
13:16<andythenorth>it’ll take a few days to get generated cargo working
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13:22<Michaellaneous>I got a question about secondary track. I have 4 lanes each, two going in each direction.
13:23<Michaellaneous>The two middle lanes have a junction for a station, the outwards two are supposed for train to pass through.
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13:23<Michaellaneous>How can I direct the trains onto the correct track? i.e. the trains that need to go to the station to the middle two, and the ones that need to pass to the outer?
13:24<Michaellaneous>Ohhh, waypoints.
13:24<Michaellaneous>Sorry, should have looked at the wiki earlier!
13:28<@Alberth>if you add a junction close before the station, trains passing through will try to avoid the platform
13:29<Michaellaneous>That would be a good idea!
13:29<Michaellaneous>But I don't build that was sadly.
13:29<Michaellaneous>I have one main highway for trains.
13:29<Michaellaneous>And all the stations branch off that.
13:29<Michaellaneous>I it more that way.
13:29<@Alberth>that's ok :)
13:30<Michaellaneous>Recently god back into the OpenTTD fevern.
13:30<Michaellaneous>And with FIRS on extreme it scratches that special itch.
13:31<@Alberth>distance stuff fixed already?
13:31<Michaellaneous>What do you mean?
13:31<@Alberth>I had a few times where the industries to connect were ridiculously close to each other
13:32<@Alberth>they could have thrown the cargo over a tile themselves :p
13:32<Michaellaneous>I am playing with normal industry density and I did not run into that problem.
13:32<Michaellaneous>Actually, getting producting/manufacturing/consuming industries together in a chain is quite the challenge!
13:33<@Alberth>that's the idea :)
13:33<Michaellaneous>Did you set FIRS to extreme or did you leave it on the default settings?
13:33<Michaellaneous>Because extreme adds like 100% more industries and chains, so naturally they are much further apart.
13:33<@Alberth>I play FIRS extreme only with busy-bee
13:34<Michaellaneous>Oh, does that set goals for cargo?
13:34<@Alberth>without that, I play a basic climate usually, with few industries
13:34<Michaellaneous>Damn I gotta try that out.
13:34<@Alberth>yep it gives you small cargo goals to connect
13:34<@Alberth>"transport 25 tonne coal to power station"
13:35<@Alberth>"transport 3500 mail to blah town"
13:35<Michaellaneous>Speaking of connecting, is there a way to easily connect stations together?
13:35<Michaellaneous>I had that problem with a drydock and a trainstation.
13:35<Michaellaneous>Had to delete the trainstation because it was 1 tile apart.
13:35<Michaellaneous>And cargo did not get shared.
13:35<@Alberth>building against each other works
13:35<+glx>only build with ctrl I think
13:35<+glx>no way to link them later
13:36<@Alberth>other wise hold ctrl while building, and you get a window to select a station to connect from
13:36<@Alberth>it does need some setting to be enabled, so if it doesn't work, check station settings
13:37<+glx>the usual magic ctrl key ;)
13:39<+glx>and deleting a station to rebuild it can be a problem if the town hates you
13:40<Michaellaneous>but that was an industry.
13:41<+glx>in this case you can build a road station linked to the train station
13:41<Michaellaneous>Oh, okay.
13:41<+glx>it's hacky but it works
13:41<Michaellaneous>Also, how do you space your block signals?
13:42<Michaellaneous>I feel like 8 is way too narrow.
13:42<+glx>I use path signals
13:42<Michaellaneous>Me too, but you know what I mean.
13:42<Michaellaneous>On a perfectly straight track with no junctions.
13:43<@Alberth>6 tiles or so, with 5 tile trains
13:43<Michaellaneous>Ah, i use 8 tiles train.
13:43<@Alberth>but it's not fixed with me, I just play with whatever length it has, unless it's very short
13:44<@Alberth>I play with breakdowns enabled, so I need lots of space at the track anyway
13:45<Michaellaneous>I do too.
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27680 trunk/src/lang/romanian.txt (2016-11-12 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>romanian: 1 change by kneekoo
13:49<Michaellaneous>see ya latetr
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15:24<@Alberth>I mean nn
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 13 00:00:42 2016