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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-11-17

---Logopened Thu Nov 17 00:00:47 2016
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04:15<Wolf01>Moin
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05:48<Wolf01>Not sure if it's me or is impossible to align the first line of text to right in a table cell in word O_o
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06:39<andythenorth>is ‘moomins’ a valid cargo for arctic?
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>probably not
06:50<andythenorth>shame
06:56<@peter1138>yes
06:57<@peter1138>or
06:57<@peter1138>would they not just be passengers?
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07:19<Eddi|zuHause>... was about to say something about meeples
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09:30<andythenorth>moomin carriage
09:30<andythenorth>first and second class moomins
09:30<andythenorth>moomins used to weird me out when I was small
09:30<andythenorth>but when I read it to my kids this year, it’s great
09:30<andythenorth>!!
09:39<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure the term "moomin" is actually racist
09:40<goodger>the 1990 anime utterly terrified me
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09:43<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause got a reference? :)
09:44<Eddi|zuHause>bah... facts are so last year...
09:46<goodger>I think we've heard enough from so-called experts
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10:06<@Alberth>hi hi
10:15<supermop>maybe i should get a spotify account
10:15<supermop>unless there is an openttd podcast that releases a 90 minute episode every weekday
10:23<Eddi|zuHause>you mean like a twitch stream?
10:28<supermop>or like two people rambling about the game endlessly
10:32<supermop>something to listen to while working
10:43<supermop>andy and wolf talking about lego tecnic for an hour would suffice
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11:06<Wolf01>What should be better? Not touching m4 in MakeRoadNormal or restore m4 after?
11:18<Wolf01>Mmmh, the problem occur only with the normal road, which sets the tram bits
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11:25<@Alberth>not touching is much simpler to understand
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11:27<Wolf01>It seem to remove the roadtype anyway, blue road -> roadstop -> remove roadstop -> normal road
11:27<Wolf01>If I restore the roadtype I get blue road again
11:27<Wolf01>BTW, normal road seem to have weird effects
11:28<Wolf01>Normal road is "0" so it's confusing when there is no road or normal road
11:29<Wolf01>As m4 = 0 is not a "reset"
11:30<Wolf01>With all the other combinations it works, but with normal road/tram screws up
11:31<Wolf01>For example, if I build a tram station on normal road, I lose the road as 0 + tram is tram
11:31<@Alberth>chaos! :)
11:31<Wolf01>Even if m5 bits are set O_o
11:31<Wolf01>Yes, chaos
11:34<Wolf01>New version, https://gist.github.com/Wolfolo/21b9c4f6387c8d8546ddb1d165f90f6b fixed restoring of roadtypes (other than original road) when removing the roadstop
11:39<Wolf01>I changed the HarRoadTypeRoad/Tram functions to avoid recursion in RoadTypeIdentifiers, maybe I did something wrong
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12:10<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aqrn7rp_460sv.mp4 true
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12:17<@Alberth>:)
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13:26<@Alberth>frosch123: while working on the terkhen scenario data format, I wondered if we can actually rebuild industries (and possibly other newgrf controlled instances too). I would think a newgrf could check for conditions, such as nearby other industry or so, which at the time of recreating the scenario, may not exist. Don't we run the risk that the newgrf refuses to create an industry?
13:26<@Alberth>If so, doesn't that imply that the scenario format is not going to fly?
13:27<@Alberth>At least I don't see how to fix something like that
13:29<frosch123>firs farm clusters are such an example :)
13:29<@Alberth>think so
13:30<frosch123>anyway, does the scenario format reference explicit industry types?
13:30<@Alberth>you can continue trying until it succeeds, which in some cases would work
13:30<frosch123>actually, there is a flag "build in scenario editor"
13:30<frosch123>which should ignore the weird restrictions
13:31<frosch123>if the grf refuses the be build in scenario editor, well, then bad luck :)
13:31<@Alberth>current format doesn't do indutries afaik
13:31<@Alberth>it's a "future extension" :)
13:31<frosch123>so, if you want to position specific industry types, i would go for the "scenario editor flag"
13:31<@Alberth>yeah, that should work
13:32<frosch123>that will still fail if the slope does not fit etc. but otherwise it's the best there is
13:32<@Alberth>if you copy the position from the scenario editor, the slope will likely work :)
13:33<@Alberth>I am not that worried that info from 3rd party tools doesn't work
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13:33<@Alberth>but if you have made a scenario, you'd really like to have round-trip working
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13:33<NGC3982>I'm awake!
13:34<@Alberth>nothing here, it's safe to go to sleep again
13:34<NGC3982>Ok!
13:34<frosch123>are you only awake or did you awoke?
13:34<NGC3982>Awokened.
13:35<@Alberth>he heard people discuss at the Internet :p
13:35<@Alberth>well ok, frosch123, your idea should be sufficient at first, thanks
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13:56<andythenorth>also hi
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14:02<supermop>yo
14:03<frosch123>lo
14:05<andythenorth>I should draw some NRT stuff?
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14:07<frosch123>drive-in-stop overlay?
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14:11<frosch123>https://hg.openttdcoop.org/opengfx/files/10065545725aef8ad58cc0d9a8e939d7e0fe37bb/sprites/png/infrastructure/infra08.png <- something to put on top of 976-979 to make the road red/blue/yellow
14:12<frosch123>but i have no idea how fixed that shape is
14:12<frosch123>i.e. how it looks in other basesets
14:13<andythenorth>I’m going to assume it’s fixed
14:13<andythenorth>it has to match the state machine at least
14:13<andythenorth>we need the shape with or without pavements?
14:16<andythenorth>frosch123: ^ :)
14:16<frosch123>without pavement, same as for the other roads
14:17<andythenorth>ok I’ll clip that off
14:17<frosch123>original baseset looks very similar
14:21<andythenorth>ok, they’re not very logical shapes w.r.t to pixels used
14:21<andythenorth>I am going to overlook that for now
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14:28<andythenorth>frosch123: I’ve pushed sprites for them in red, yellow and blue roads
14:28<andythenorth>dunno which sprites they correspond to, so I didn’t edit the nml yet
14:38<andythenorth>supermop: oats for arctic? o_O
14:38<andythenorth>or more generic, grain, which already exists :P
14:39<supermop>oats not exclusively cold enough?
14:39<supermop>i think rye is better as a cold climate grain
14:39<andythenorth>apparently the finest oats are swedish
14:39<andythenorth>the long summer days make them grow up high
14:39<supermop>unless you want oats -> livestock feed
14:39<andythenorth>rye also works
14:39<andythenorth>but IRL oats are a much bigger crop
14:40<supermop>how will oats be different from grain in game?
14:40<supermop>unless as stock feed
14:40<andythenorth>not really
14:40<andythenorth>it might just be grain
14:40<supermop>stockfeed could work
14:41<andythenorth>I’m only adding it because farm -> food is a bit dull
14:41<frosch123>how about maple sirup?
14:41<andythenorth>ho ho
14:41<supermop>farm -> fmsp -> farm
14:41<andythenorth>maple syrup refinery
14:41<frosch123>or is canadian not artic?
14:41<andythenorth>it might be
14:41<andythenorth>it was scandinavia
14:41<andythenorth>now I might just be making it up
14:41<andythenorth>‘northern stuff'
14:41<supermop>rename current arctic to scandinavian basic
14:41<andythenorth>that is…controversial
14:42<andythenorth>I have some problems with players
14:42<andythenorth>if it was called ‘reduced Finland’ it might be ok
14:42<frosch123>supermop: then all the scanadians nerds complain abuot the fish economy on the forums
14:42<andythenorth>it was made with Kyosuke who is Finnish
14:43<supermop>scandinavia/ boreal canadan / alaska / Kamchatka / siberia are all too different to homogenize to anyone's satisfaction
14:43<andythenorth>I figure just make cargos that look nice
14:43<frosch123>fur
14:43<andythenorth>or use a wide range of wagons
14:44*andythenorth checks plan
14:44<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pknkojrl2
14:44<andythenorth>Sulfur = tank wagons
14:44<andythenorth>Clay = hoppers
14:44<andythenorth>ENSP, FMSP = supply wagons
14:44<andythenorth>Food = refrigerated wagons
14:44<andythenorth>Goods = box wagons
14:44<andythenorth>Mail = mail van
14:45<andythenorth>Paper = flatbed with paper
14:45<andythenorth>pyrite = hoppers
14:45<andythenorth>wood = flatbed with logs
14:45<andythenorth>alcohol = edibles tanker
14:45<andythenorth>fish = fishing boat
14:45<andythenorth>MNSP = blah blah blah
14:46<andythenorth>explosives = ??? armoured mail van?
14:46<andythenorth>potash = covered hopper
14:46<andythenorth>fertiliser = covered hopper
14:46<andythenorth>gold = mail van
14:46<@Alberth>you don't want heavy armour around explosives :p
14:46<andythenorth>lumber = flat bed with visible cargo
14:47<andythenorth>http://modelspoorend.appspot.com/trains/LGB/s_wagon02.jpg
14:47<@Alberth>open wagon is much safer when shit hits the fan :p
14:47<andythenorth>grain = covered hopper
14:47<andythenorth>hmm, too many mail vans :P
14:47<@Alberth>yeah, likely build such that the roof gets blown away
14:48<@Alberth>*built
14:48*andythenorth considering wood chips
14:48<andythenorth>paper is made from them
14:49<andythenorth>peat? as fuel?
14:49<andythenorth>visible cargo / wagon choice is a much more interesting way to decide the economy
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14:50<frosch123>what happend to trash metal?
14:51<andythenorth>no metal chain
14:52<andythenorth>pyrite can be processed to a range of things…copper, gold, nickel
14:52<andythenorth>nickel would at least be visible
14:53<frosch123>pocket watches
14:54<frosch123>i have no idea what nickel is used for :)
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14:56<andythenorth>me neither http://image.ec21.com/image/ts0038/OF0011368346_1/Sell_Nickel_ingot.jpg
14:57<andythenorth>http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/sudbury/inco_ops.htm
14:58<andythenorth>goes into stainless steel mostly, it seems
14:59<andythenorth>https://www.nickelinstitute.org/NickelUseInSociety/AboutNickel/WhereWhyNickelIsUsed.aspx
15:00<supermop>TITANIUM?
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15:03*andythenorth researches it
15:03<Eddi|zuHause>https://scontent-frt3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14910431_1835874959965290_4797085864652560776_n.jpg?oh=bac35a1c7ad068c1d790d22714480d7b&oe=58B9053B
15:04<andythenorth>supermop: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilmenite
15:04<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: :)
15:05<andythenorth>anyone good at chemistry?
15:05*andythenorth struggles to follow it well
15:05<Eddi|zuHause>the questions are (in order): "are you childish", "are you nervous", "are you paranoid" and "are you drunk"
15:05<supermop>Years ago maybe
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>anyone good at metaquestions?
15:06<supermop>Ti not should probably not be metal
15:06<Eddi|zuHause>i've written programs that handle hydrochloric acid
15:07<Eddi|zuHause>does that mean i've in-depth knowledge about it? probably not
15:07<supermop>unless you want really fancy cans for your tinned fish and beer
15:07<supermop>ore->Ti-> fighter jets and golf clubs
15:08<supermop>->white paint
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>you use Titatnium for things that need to be strong like steel but also light like aluminium
15:09<andythenorth>titanium would be exported
15:09<andythenorth>‘pacific northwest’ economy could import it for airplanes
15:09<Eddi|zuHause>but there's probably not enough of it going around to make 6 mrd cars from
15:10<supermop>Eddi|zuHause: in regular firs i end up making everything out of aluminum
15:10*andythenorth trying to understand fertiliser production
15:10<Eddi|zuHause>they're not very sturdy cars, i'm assuming :p
15:10<supermop>bulk terminal -> alu plant = make all the Al you want
15:11<andythenorth>I have sulfur, do I need potash or phosphate?
15:11<supermop>presumably my trains should derail a lot more in warm weather too
15:11<Eddi|zuHause>i've not played with the last few... dozen... iterations of FIRS
15:12<andythenorth>http://yara.com/about/production_sites/finland_production_siilinjarvi.aspx
15:13<andythenorth>probably need phosphate :P
15:13<andythenorth>but phosphate is an import cargo, too many import cargos is boring
15:18<andythenorth>to put it another way, is sulphur used in non-phosphate fertiliser?
15:19<Eddi|zuHause>there's a lot of sulphur in eggs
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>(not sure if that's what you wanted to know)
15:20<Eddi|zuHause>it's basically why eggs are yellow, and why rotten eggs smell so bad
15:21<frosch123>and what do chickens eat that contains sulfur?
15:21<frosch123>or do they extract it from diesel cars?
15:22<andythenorth>they eat eggs silly
15:22<andythenorth>where else would it come from?
15:28<frosch123>http://www.rohkostwiki.de/wiki/Schwefel-Gehalt_von_Lebensmitteln <- Eddi|zuHause: that lists the same sulfur percentage for egg and egg-white
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>how is that a problem?
15:28<Eddi|zuHause>the colour depends not only on the content, but also on the structure
15:29<frosch123>the real question is whether peanuts and geese are actually fish
15:29<frosch123>there are a lot of fish at the top of the list
15:31<andythenorth>eggs are not a FIRS cargo
15:31<andythenorth>hmm also https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6295?project=1&string=OS+X&type%5B0%5D=&sev%5B0%5D=&pri%5B0%5D=&due%5B0%5D=&reported%5B0%5D=&cat%5B0%5D=&status%5B0%5D=open&percent%5B0%5D=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&pagenum=2
15:31<andythenorth>macports maintainer offering some help
15:31<andythenorth>he’s german
15:59<supermop>andythenorth: chips needs the rotary tipple seen at bottom of http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/sudbury/inco_ops.htm
15:59<andythenorth>it would be lame :)
16:00<andythenorth>it can’t actually rotate the wagons
16:00<supermop>its indoors though so i guess you use your imagination
16:00<supermop>need shunting patch to shunt two cars at a time into tipple
16:00<supermop>slag dump also needed
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16:04<supermop>firs should place more foundries next to steel mills so i can use the molten metal cars
16:06<@Alberth>can molten cars even drive?
16:07<@Alberth>gn
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16:10<Eddi|zuHause>A wild SirXavius appears.
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16:21<andythenorth>supermop: I end up funding them for that reason :P
16:24<Wolf01>fro... already gone
16:25<andythenorth>:)
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16:53<andythenorth>bloody fish
16:55<Wolf01>Bloody roadtypes
16:55<Wolf01>RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile does not work well with base tram and base road
16:55<andythenorth>still on roadstops?
16:55<Wolf01>Always
16:56<andythenorth>:|
16:57<Wolf01>And I found the problem
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16:58<Wolf01>HasRoadTypeRoad/Tram checks for != 0
16:58<Wolf01>But base road and tram ARE 0
16:58<Eddi|zuHause>sounds like a logic fail to me
16:58<Wolf01>So I should check for bits instead?
17:00<andythenorth>how does railtypes handle RAIL / ELRL?
17:00<andythenorth>do they get assigned the labels?
17:00<andythenorth>or is it bit-checking?
17:00<andythenorth>(in the case where it’s defaults)
17:01<Wolf01>Bit checking, but it's easy there, you don't have 2 railtypes on the same tile
17:01<andythenorth>yup
17:02<Wolf01>I would like to have 2 railtypes, to fix the different bits on same tile for NS/WE
17:02<andythenorth>is that the case where half-tile tracks occupy the full tile?
17:03<andythenorth>and different type can’t then be built on same tile?
17:03<Wolf01>Yes
17:03<andythenorth>that’s irritating
17:03<andythenorth>might TMWFTLB though :)
17:03<Wolf01>Lol... I broke diagdirection now
17:03<Wolf01>I get road bits being built at the sides of the roadstop
17:03<Wolf01>I think I inverted 2 bits somewhere
17:04<andythenorth>:)
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>michi_cc had a patch for that once
17:04<andythenorth>‘x had a patch’ is usually the death of the idea :D
17:04<Eddi|zuHause>for separating the two tracks
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17:14<Wolf01>Meh, I can't even use GetRoadBits because it's MP_STATION and not MP_ROAD
17:17<andythenorth>supermop: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#arctic_basic
17:17<andythenorth>not right yet, just throwing it up for opinions
17:17<andythenorth>there is a severe lack of farm / organic cargos
17:18<andythenorth>and gold will probably switch to nickel
17:18<andythenorth>and I’m not convinced by wood -> sawmill -> timber -> goods
17:24<supermop>arctic circle seems less farmy than the other areas
17:25<andythenorth>yair
17:25*andythenorth is reading about farming in the yukon
17:25<andythenorth>‘oats are the easiest to grow'
17:25<andythenorth>someone has an elk farm :P
17:26<andythenorth>‘arctic circle’ is basically a wavey-hands f*ck off to the realism nerds
17:26<Wolf01>Why don't you just focus on making it playable instead of realism-rage?
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17:27<Wolf01>I wouldn't care less if you bring logs directly to a paperworks instead of wood pulp
17:29<andythenorth>unfortunately I have upset some scandinavians
17:29<andythenorth>:(
17:29<andythenorth>so I am adjusting the docs :P
17:29<Wolf01>:(
17:29<Wolf01>You know you don't need to make everybody happy, that's in movies and anime
17:30<andythenorth>I can fix their sadness by changing the words
17:30<andythenorth>the actual economy….I’m making that to suit my taste
17:31<Wolf01>Mmmh, I would rely on m7 7..6, but we decided to deprecate them
17:32<Wolf01>As that stored 1 for road and 2 for tram, 0 meant nothing
17:32<Wolf01>3 both
17:32<andythenorth>I wondered about that
17:33<andythenorth>seems like it _shouldn’t_ be needed
17:33<andythenorth>those results should be possible to calculate always?
17:33<Wolf01>It shouldn't be needed with 15 roadtypes instead of 16
17:33*andythenorth doesn’t know how though :|
17:34<Wolf01>I need to identify when 0 means nothing or means original road/tram
17:34<andythenorth>nothing if there are no road bits?
17:34<andythenorth>or is that not possible to detect?
17:34<Wolf01>I could do it by looking at both m4+m5/m4+m3
17:34<andythenorth>roadstop has no bits?
17:35<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#arctic_basic < 20 cargos, 18 industries
17:35<andythenorth>looks about right
17:35<Wolf01>Eh, I could use GetRoadBits, but that asserts if TileType != MP_ROAD
17:35<andythenorth>and tile is station
17:35<Wolf01>So GetRoadBits is useful only on clear road
17:35<andythenorth>?
17:35<Wolf01>I could do the bitcheck by hand, but then it's the same of removing the assert
17:36<Wolf01>Or adding | MP_STATION
17:36<andythenorth>urgh, how does the station tile store whether it’s road, tram, or both?
17:36*andythenorth must to sleep :P
17:36<Wolf01>m7 7..6
17:38<Wolf01>m7 7..6 tells if it's road or tram, m4 what kind of road and/or tram
17:38<Wolf01>m4 for stations is... something I would like to discuss
17:38<Wolf01>m4: custom station id; 0 means standard graphics
17:38<andythenorth>ok so either we don’t deprecate m7 7..6, or we have to have a distinction for what 0 means?
17:38<Wolf01>For roadstops is always 0
17:39<andythenorth>if 0 means nothing OR original road / tram, that seems confused
17:39<Wolf01>That's really confused
17:40*andythenorth is ignoring the custom stops question for now :)
17:40<andythenorth>too many 0s
17:40<Wolf01>Yes
17:40<andythenorth>it’s too late for me to start reading the enums and stuff :)
17:41<Wolf01>Now I'm storing roadtypes in m4, but that mean I'm abusing the bits
17:41<andythenorth>also I have no fricking idea about most of the implementation :)
17:41<andythenorth>maybe
17:41<Wolf01>https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=blob_plain;f=docs/landscape_grid.html;h=d34fe9840c9777b4f480142714c731779537b5ac;hb=HEAD
17:42<andythenorth>I read m4 as free, for roadstops
17:42<Wolf01>Yes, but the specs tell another thing
17:42<andythenorth>oh
17:42<andythenorth>the choice of m4 was based on the grid :P
17:43<andythenorth>if pushed to choose, NRT > custom road stop graphics, every time
17:43<Wolf01>I would like to think again about having 16 subtypes for each roadtype
17:43<andythenorth>we can have fewer, surely?
17:43<andythenorth>it’s just a conventional number :P
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17:45<andythenorth>you want to reduce the number of bits? Or reserve some values to distinguish ‘default’ from ‘nothing’?
17:46<Wolf01>I would just use 8 subtypes for roadtype, and the other 2 bits are to know exactly if the tile has road or tram
17:46<Wolf01>Or we will still keep m7 7..6 and 16 subtypes
17:47<Wolf01>When 0 has too many meanings you need to use more bits, or few features
17:47<andythenorth>I originally considered 3 bits or so
17:47<andythenorth>imho, 8 types is plenty
17:48<Wolf01>I can't even think about more than 6 types :P
17:48<andythenorth>but I was persuaded that 16 is fine, so I rewrote spec
17:48<andythenorth>any types menu with more than 4 or 5 gets daft
17:49<andythenorth>if this is limiting progress, try something you know might be wrong?
17:49<andythenorth>if someone else strongly freels it’s wrong, they can refactor it
17:49<Wolf01>Ok, transport fever has 9 types of roads + 3 types of tram, but that imply state-machines (1-2-3 lane roads)
17:50<andythenorth>I am 90% certain that someone gave me a paste with 15 types, and one bit reserved for default
17:50<andythenorth>but I lost that :(
17:50<andythenorth>and pastebin doesn’t keep them very long
17:50<andythenorth>one value, not one bit :P
17:51*V453000 just spent a whole evening making models of random pipe pieces ._.
17:51<andythenorth>awesome
17:51<andythenorth>what could be finer? :)
17:51<Wolf01>More pipes!
17:52<andythenorth>I have spent the evening failing to learn about NPK fertiliser
17:52<andythenorth>also bedtime, really really
17:52<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#arctic_basic
17:52<andythenorth>bye
17:52<Wolf01>Factorio time
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17:52<Wolf01>:P
17:52<V453000>nah more of a general pipe :)
17:52<V453000>factorio has it's pipes done
17:54<Wolf01>I need to create the modules factory now
17:56<V453000>I had a very bright idea
17:56<V453000>I wanted to try to make a big train junction ASAP
17:57<V453000>so I made a factory where each train station produces only 1 thing, and a specific factory layout where there is 1 central 3-way junction
17:57<V453000>every single train goes over that junction
17:57<V453000>and to top it off, limit cargo wagon storage size to three slots
17:58<V453000>currently finishing 4 lines in each direction after like 30 hours XD
17:58<Wolf01>Seem nice
17:58<V453000>not producing shit
17:58<V453000>almos
17:58<V453000>t
17:58<V453000>basically got all researches
17:58<V453000>except follower count and the infinite ones (duh)
17:59<Wolf01>Instead I installed a mod to get different length for underground belts: yellow = standard, red = 2x, blue 3x
17:59<Wolf01>Really useful
18:00<V453000>I consider that dumb
18:00<V453000>but eh
18:01<V453000>same as the inserter shit :P
18:01<Wolf01>I know your opinion, we already had a talk about it
18:04<Wolf01>I think of them as lego pieces, there's people which only build stud-on-top and don't like snot pieces, other people only build stud-less models
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20:23<Wolf01>nn
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---Logclosed Fri Nov 18 00:00:48 2016