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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-11-20

---Logopened Sun Nov 20 00:00:51 2016
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04:10<andythenorth>somehow farm supplies don’t fit forests
04:12<andythenorth>add ‘logging supplies’?
04:23<@Alberth>forests prefer no logging :p
04:23<@Alberth>maybe "farm" is the wrong word?
04:24<@Alberth>perhaps "agriculture" but it's too long, and perhaps spelled wrong :)
04:24<andythenorth>yeah :)
04:25<andythenorth>I could remove the supplies mechanic from logging, but that’s….not justified :)
04:25<andythenorth>many versions ago, forest needed engineering supplies
04:25<andythenorth>but that was strange also
04:26<@Alberth>well, if you see how people move log from eg hills, it does involves engineering :)
04:26<V453000>yo huminz
04:26<@Alberth>but in general, yes, it's a bit strange as well.
04:26<@Alberth>yo Vz
04:27<V453000>lately I have been getting a lot of repots that people who play with any of my 32bpp things get a lot of lag and shit
04:27<V453000>some say that it only happens when they combine it with zbase
04:27<V453000>but for me it's fine
04:27<V453000>WTF is that these people have some high end machines
04:27<V453000>what could be the bottleneck?
04:27<@Alberth>high end as in new video cards?
04:28<andythenorth>every time I upgrade my computer, OpenTTD performance gets worse
04:28<@Alberth>where the entire GPU is not used at all?
04:28<andythenorth>but that’s 8bpp
04:29<@Alberth>moving around the screen isn't as smooth as it used to be, but I run a development build. I think it's the switch to 32bpp that is the default now
04:29<andythenorth>V453000 any details on what kind of lag it is?
04:30<@Alberth>"plant supplies" ?
04:30<andythenorth>also how does palette cycle animation work with 32bpp? Is it same?
04:30<V453000>idk they say like 2fps when they zoom out
04:30<@Alberth>without palette? nah, won't work :p
04:30<V453000>high end as in processors
04:30<@Rubidium>V453000: sound to me like the railways in the UK. In the past your drive from London to the north in say 2 hours, but they increased the performance of that route... so now you can get there in 2:15 (but every 15 minutes instead of every 2 hours)
04:31<@Alberth>it's the bandwidth of the CPU-GPU likely
04:31<V453000>sounds weird
04:31<V453000>but it makes me consider adding 8bpp x4 sprites
04:31<andythenorth>ask them if they have ‘full animation’ on, and if turning it off helps
04:32<@Alberth>modern PCs have big fast GPUs on their video card to render stuff
04:32<@Alberth>modern games all use it
04:32<@Alberth>OpenTTD still renders everything with the CPU, and then sends all images to the GPU to display
04:33<@Alberth>so OpenTTD needs lots of speed in the transfer to the GPU
04:33<andythenorth>$somebody told me that some of the palette cycling relies on hardware transforms that were dropped
04:33<andythenorth>about 3 years ago
04:33<@Rubidium>the main problems are: a) higher resolution; increase sides by factor 2, you have 4 times as much pixels to draw. b) less optimisations for simple blitting, even Windows itself is starting to use 3D techniques to just draw an image. c) as a result old style techniques are not to be used anymore (thus lesser optimised)
04:33<V453000>well yeah but i6700k doesn't sound like a bad cpu
04:34<@Alberth>while modern games typically upload one time to the GPU, and then do all rendering at the GPU
04:34<@Alberth>no need for big lanes between CPU and GPU
04:34<@Alberth>which is also what manufacturers design for
04:34<@Rubidium>like in the past your video was completely blitted from the CPU to the GPU, now they just send the compressed video to the GPU which decodes, scales and draws it
04:34<@Rubidium>so again, the simple blitting is not needed anymore because what needs to be done fast is done fast
04:35<andythenorth>V453000: IT’S NOT “PRO"
04:35<V453000>HAS NO FRUIT ON IT
04:35<@Rubidium>after all, a 2CV is a much better car
04:35<V453000>IZ NOT CAT
04:35<V453000>so, is there anything I can tell people to help them ? :D
04:36<V453000>other than "you are fucked" ?
04:36<andythenorth>try turning off full animation, see what happens
04:36<andythenorth>it’s at least just a toggle
04:36<andythenorth>it works for me, but I am running 8bpp with 32bpp blitter
04:36<andythenorth>with ‘full animation’ on, the game is unplayable for me
04:36<V453000>I never had that issue
04:37<@Alberth>andy is willing to swap computers, I am sure :p
04:37<V453000>but that's the thing ... it "just works" for me
04:37<andythenorth>V453000: you don’t have a ‘pro’ operating system :P
04:38<V453000>does that mean osx fucks something for you?
04:38<@Rubidium>in any case, the main (graphics) performance issues OpenTTD has are due to the 1990s design and the fact that we need to remain compatible with that in some way or another
04:38<@Rubidium>otherwise you're just playing something like p1sim
04:39<V453000>colleague at work was getting a new mouse last week ... Oh I like this mouse ... does it support mac? Ok time to choose another mouse, ...
04:39<@Rubidium>only some bluetooth mouses support mac, right?
04:39<@Rubidium>the rest doesn't have USB-C connectors
04:40<V453000>idk :D
04:40<V453000>ah to say it properly
04:40<V453000>he is using osx on a normal pc
04:40<V453000>so usb is ok
04:40<V453000>but the software for the mouse usually isn't there
04:46<V453000>how could for example loading zbase AND BRIX together influence it?
04:46<V453000>something apart from
04:46<V453000>"just more 32bpp shit" ?
04:49<andythenorth>V453000 if the mouse didn’t have CF card slot, it probably wasn’t pro
04:49<andythenorth>that would be the problem
04:49<andythenorth>Serious Mac Users Need Serious Slots
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04:57<andythenorth>“Logging Supply Shop”
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06:49<andythenorth>what can produce food, that isn’t a farm or fishing ground?
06:49<andythenorth>maybe I can remove Farm Supplies from Arctic Basic
06:49<andythenorth>which would be…different
06:52<@Alberth>food factories
06:53<@Alberth>extra-terrestial launching platforms
06:54<@Alberth>restaurant, bakeries
06:54<@Alberth>hotel, sort of
06:55<@Alberth>all kinds of shops
07:02<andythenorth>hunting grounds?
07:13<@Alberth>I do hope you don't need a train for transport :p
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09:02<andythenorth>Logging Supplies, Forest Supplies, or Lumberjack Supplies? o_O
09:02*andythenorth is going to try it in a test game, what’s the best name?
09:02<andythenorth>icon can be an axe :P
09:02<FLHerne>Forestry Supplies?
09:03<andythenorth>I think it will make no sense in FIRS world TBH
09:04<andythenorth>there are too many industries which should produce ENSP, FMSP and Forestry Supplies
09:04<andythenorth>but only 2 outputs
09:04<andythenorth>so eh
09:06<andythenorth>also, it’s a bit ‘swallowed a spider to catch the fly'
09:06<andythenorth>the problem is that delivering fertiliser to a forest is weird
09:06<andythenorth>I should solve that differently
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09:24<andythenorth>‘small trees'
09:24<andythenorth>hmm, Christmas Tree Farm industry?
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09:31<@Alberth>only with snow :p
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09:33<andythenorth>ach, farms in arctic: yes / no?
09:34<andythenorth>IRL is ’kind of’; there are farms but arctic regions import the grain they need
09:34<andythenorth>can’t grow enough to be sufficient
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09:39<andythenorth>‘no farms’ :)
09:39*andythenorth tries it
09:53<@Alberth>likely farms above snow limit isn't a good idea in reality :)
10:01<Jinassi>How would one limit them? Use the same mechanics as the tree placer? WHere they only grow in rain forests, aka on the lower greener levels?
10:01<Eddi|zuHause>how "arctic" are your arctics?
10:02<Eddi|zuHause>if you think scandinavian countries, maybe try apple plantations instead of wheat farms
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>trees may be a bit sturdier concerning longer stretches of cold and a narrow growth period
10:03<Eddi|zuHause>and also sheep herding
10:05<andythenorth>they are approximately, finland and more northern bits of canada
10:05<andythenorth>Dan had a plan for a more southerly canadian economy, with apples :)
10:06<andythenorth>how could forests be better?
10:07<andythenorth>or to put it another way, why does the lumber mill mechanic suck so much?
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10:13<@Alberth>too familiar?
10:15<andythenorth>requires tree planting
10:15<andythenorth>and doesn’t move
10:15<andythenorth>ha, moving industries :)
10:15<andythenorth>that would keep you building routes
10:16<@Alberth>it's known as "he my industry closed!" :)
10:16<Eddi|zuHause>lumber mill only works in tropic because it has increased tree growth speed
10:16<andythenorth>‘all the trees are gone, the lumber mill moved'
10:16<@Alberth>it works? I never got it to work reliably
10:17<andythenorth>I tried it a few times, then ignored it
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, i never actually tried
10:17<Eddi|zuHause>but it definitely will work less well in temperate or arctic
10:17<@Alberth>ok, that explains why it works for you :p
10:18*andythenorth wondering if forest is some special type of industry
10:18<andythenorth>fishing grounds cannot be boosted, they’re unique primaries in FIRS
10:19<andythenorth>forest is neither farm nor mine
10:19<@Alberth>time scale is different with forests
10:19<@Alberth>unless you got a reaaally big forest
10:20<@Alberth>in real time, at least
10:20<andythenorth>I did consider *really big* forests
10:20<@Alberth>*real life
10:20<V453000>reel lyef
10:22<andythenorth>forests are never big enough in my game
10:22<andythenorth>they should be sprawling
10:22<andythenorth>but that makes a mess on the map
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11:11<V453000>andythenorth: if the industry doesn't have to be flat, having it BIG with somewhat random pattern could be pretty amazing actually
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11:25<V453000>it kind of even makes sense that a forest would need some big area
11:25<V453000>but I guess that is the case for all industries :D
11:28<@Alberth>it doesn't really work in the game, unless you play a crazy size map
11:28<@Alberth>but then you get major problems in placement of the industries
11:30<@Alberth>we lack a proper negotiation about the ground surface between the industry and the game
11:32<andythenorth>is proper problem
11:32<andythenorth>big forest: looks weird if has gaps; but blocks routes if no gaps
11:32<andythenorth>lumber mill is frustratingly close to a good idea, but sucks
11:32<Eddi|zuHause>for spread out industries like that we need some different approach than a rigid shape that is fixed for the entirety of the game
11:32<@Alberth>sort of cluster, like farms?
11:33<andythenorth>if lumber mill just planted trees continuously, like farm fields
11:33<Eddi|zuHause>like, if you have a farm, and it plants 90 field tiles around it, you can use 10% of them for something other than fields
11:33<andythenorth>then I could put a sawmill in it :P
11:34<Eddi|zuHause>so you could use 9 of the 90 field tiles to put like a station or roads through
11:35<Eddi|zuHause>(numbers up for debate)
11:35<andythenorth>meanwhile, I could change the forest back to use engineering supplies, not farm supplies
11:35<supermop__>if custom fields can't happen, why not have a hut that plants trees
11:35*andythenorth considers just having one type of supplies :P
11:36<Eddi|zuHause>nobody said you need to have the same sort of supplies for all economies
11:37<andythenorth>nobody did
11:38<andythenorth>the only reason forest has farm supplies is because of
11:38<andythenorth>a long time ago, it seemed weird to have wood go back to the forest to produce more wood
11:38<andythenorth>so it was switched from ENSP to FMSP
11:39<andythenorth>despite that coal -> more coal, via steel chain (and many other similar examples)
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11:41<andythenorth>dedicated ‘logging supplies’ seems all kinds of wrong
11:41<supermop__>im telling you man : chainsaws
11:42<andythenorth>‘chainsaw supplies'
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12:00<andythenorth>why are supplies?
12:02<@Alberth>excuse to get more cargo in the network?
12:02<andythenorth>why not just deliver vehicles, fuel, building materials, spares, food, passengers?
12:03<andythenorth>also fertiliser, seeds, explosives, machinery
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: usually the 3-input-limit for industries
12:07<@Alberth>it also adds a dynamic element to the industries
12:08<@Alberth>although I think most do it for the additional cargo they get
12:10<andythenorth>hmm, if we had graphviz when I made this, I would never had released it :P file:///Users/andy/Documents/OTTD_graphics/FIRS/firs_build/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
12:11<@Alberth>ah, let people play :)
12:12<@Alberth>they like insanely big maps too :p
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12:13<supermop_>ok my computer overheated and shut down running nothing but irc client
12:15<andythenorth>and all your viruses
12:15<supermop_>those virii are plenty benign an friendly
12:17<supermop_>really need to get something new so i can work from home christmas to new years
12:17<supermop_>otherwise my boss will make me come into the office
12:18<andythenorth>instead of forest, I could do a log sort
12:20<andythenorth>logs come in from the forest and are sorted for pulp / sawmill
12:20<andythenorth>could accept engineering supplies
12:21<andythenorth>works more like a junk yard, gathers from surrounding area, not extracting directly
12:21<andythenorth>might suck, dunno :P
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12:33<andythenorth>ach, what am I trying to solve?
12:33<andythenorth>having 19 cargos instead of 20 :|
12:45<@Alberth>add a supplies conversion industry :)
12:55<andythenorth>that’s a port ;)
12:55<andythenorth>or a supply yard
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13:00<@Alberth>fair enough :)
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13:59<Wolf01>Lego weekend finished
14:00<Wolf01>Not so much, people didn't expected to find lego in that fair
14:00<Wolf01>A lot of people but not interested
14:00<@Alberth>yeah, I can imagine
14:02<Wolf01>Also people only looked at star wars, train and city themes, MOCs like mine didn't get much attention
14:03<@Alberth>but more because of the theme than because it's lego, I guess
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14:40<Wolf01>frosch123, I think we have to think again at some nrt implementation
14:41<Wolf01>For example 0 mean no road and normal road
14:59<frosch123>V453000: ottd picks different blitters by default depending on whether the baseset is 32bpp, or only some newgrf is 32bpp
14:59<frosch123>so that may make a difference
15:00<frosch123>Wolf01: can you give me some more context?
15:00<frosch123>"no roadbits" means "no road" usually
15:01<Wolf01>Yes, but the GetRoadBits asserts if used with stations or bridges
15:01<V453000>ok :)
15:01<V453000>that's weird
15:01<V453000>and if BRIX was replacing ALL sprites, would that make a difference?
15:02<Wolf01>Or we remove the assert and pray, or we don't deprecate the m7 7..6 bits which tell which roadtypes are in the tile
15:04<Wolf01>Also m4 in stations is a bit... abused
15:04<Wolf01>It's free for roads, but for rails stores the station graphics
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15:05<Wolf01>So if we use it for road, we wouldn't have different roadstops (only 1 for every roadtype)
15:06<frosch123> <- V453000: if the baseset used 32bpp, it will prefer one of the sse blitters
15:06<frosch123>they can try other blitters via "-b"
15:06<frosch123>the idea was, that some blitters are faster for 32bpp but slower for 8bpp, so the decision is made based on the baseset, assuming it provides most of the graphics
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15:07<frosch123>Wolf01: i think m4 for roadstops is fine
15:07<V453000>but shouldn't that mean that with zbase it is faster?
15:08<frosch123>V453000: yes, "should" :p but what does theory matter for single computers?
15:09<V453000>so what results can we expect once BRIX is complete grf and not a baseset?
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15:12<frosch123>Wolf01: for roadstops the map bits do not matter that much, since they have pool entries anyway
15:12<frosch123>so custom roadstop graphics could always be done via the "RoadStop" struct
15:12<frosch123>i would use m4 for roadtype
15:12<frosch123>anyway, starting from thursday i should have some time for nrt :)
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15:34<andythenorth>so reindeer farm for arctic? o-O
15:34<andythenorth>it’s a legit industry, if a bit niche
15:35<V453000>im not drawing reindeer
15:35<V453000>on wagons
15:35<V453000>we can discuss slugdeer
15:35<andythenorth>Siberia, Finland, Sweden, Canada all eat reindeer…
15:35<V453000>fucking savages
15:35<andythenorth>such realisms
15:36<Wolf01>They eat it in the same quantity we use to eat cows?
15:36<andythenorth>dunno :)
15:36<frosch123>andythenorth: BOOM should have hazardous class, shouldn't it?
15:38<andythenorth>apparently, according to forums
15:38<andythenorth>if I was a vehicle set author, I’d probably want it, right?
15:38<V453000>did you really make BOOM label?
15:38<V453000>holy fuck
15:38<frosch123>i have not read forums :)
15:38<andythenorth>should I make a vehicle set? o_O
15:38<frosch123>V453000: it is loaded while burning
15:38<frosch123>you need to deliver it fast
15:39<V453000>and I thought java for coffee was weird
15:39<andythenorth>so what is hazardous class good for then?
15:39<andythenorth>V453000: also
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: nothing. nobody ever used it, it's a remnant from the silly "openttd+500" "specs" that somebody decided "maybe we keep it around, it doesn't sound as absurd as the rest"
15:41<andythenorth>ha ha
15:42<andythenorth>before my time :)
15:42<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: really, it is from that thing?
15:42<frosch123>i thought it was added with the uranium stuff, which was way before that
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure... but memory is not reliable across such times
15:42<andythenorth>reindeer farm: disallow_desert=True,
15:42<andythenorth>seems legit :P
15:43*andythenorth is copy-pasting from dairy farm
15:43<frosch123>no dates for reindeer?
15:43<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: certainly uranium was suggested earlier than that, but it wasn't included in the wiki like that
15:43<andythenorth>not in this economy
15:43<andythenorth>reindeer farm: allow above snowline? o_O
15:43<andythenorth>probably :
15:44<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: at some point we deleted stuff like "depleted uranium", which noone used
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>dangit, i updated something, now steam doesn't start... and the solution that google gave me doesn't work
15:45<Wolf01>Trash linux
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15:46<Eddi|zuHause>well, from what i can tell, the package maintainer either already applied that solution to the installation, or steam itself changed since then
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15:47<Eddi|zuHause>because i can't find these files that it suggests deleting
15:48*andythenorth wonders what openttd+500 _was_
15:48<Eddi|zuHause>a bunch of forum posts by sirxavius. pretty much.
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: yes, pretty much all of that stuff we deleted was from that openttd+500 thing
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>plus some andythenorth nonsense because he can't focus on anything :p
15:53<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the harzardous class already exists in the oldest version of the wiki 2007-02-19
15:53<frosch123>ottd+500 is 2009-05-03
15:54<Eddi|zuHause>maybe then only the ottd+500 cargos ever used it, or something
15:54<frosch123>andythenorth: <- plus the drama that all those posts at the front of the topic were separate topics
15:55<andythenorth>where is the drama these days?
15:55<andythenorth>we are lacking any primadonnas :(
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>openttd is dying
15:55<Eddi|zuHause>for years now
15:55<frosch123>does that make it better?
15:55<andythenorth>I played it yesterday
15:55<andythenorth>does that help
15:56<Wolf01>NRT will bring some new fresh air
15:57<andythenorth>also, when I release new Arctic Basic, that’s like a whole new game :P
15:57<andythenorth>or at least, it will cause someone some drama
15:57<Wolf01>People play when they look at "Feature: xyz" in the changelog :P
16:01<andythenorth>hmm, I’ll have to draw Rudolf for this reindeer farm
16:02<Wolf01>But only on xmas
16:03<Wolf01>Or better, just after xmas
16:03<andythenorth>use the level crossing flashing red from the palette
16:05<andythenorth>is it ridiculous for reindeer farm to produce goods?
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: so people who were like "thankfully this is over now" get additionally annoyed?
16:06<Wolf01>No, that's a satisfaciotn, you'll eat it
16:07<andythenorth>I doubt that there are trainloads of reindeer skin crossing finland daily
16:07*andythenorth drops that idea
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16:12<Jinassi>Could generalise it just with "game farm". A bit broader term and familiar all over the world.
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16:13<andythenorth>I have failed to get down to 19 cargos
16:15<andythenorth>could drop grain, and import alcohol and food
16:16<frosch123>oh, you replaced the old arctic, i thought you added another arctic
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16:17<andythenorth>I am moving the old arctic to ‘steeltown'
16:17<andythenorth>or a better name
16:17<andythenorth>and making it a bit bigger
16:17<frosch123>if you want to remove an industry, drop the hotel imho
16:17<andythenorth>industries I am actually 1 short :P
16:17<frosch123>oh, right, you asked for a cargo...
16:17<andythenorth>19 cargos and 19 industries is the target :)
16:18<frosch123>goods should go to reindeer farm
16:18<andythenorth>for distribution
16:18<andythenorth>only processed in November and December
16:18<andythenorth>like MB’s farms
16:19<frosch123>i guess 18/20 is fine
16:20<frosch123>it's same as tropic basic
16:20<frosch123>so, maybe temperate basic is wrong :p
16:20<andythenorth>plays nicely though :)
16:20<andythenorth>I use it quite often
16:20<andythenorth>no desire to change it
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16:22<frosch123>don't :)
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16:24<andythenorth>reindeer farm looks like a silly novelty
16:24*andythenorth removes that
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>got steam working again by downgrading mesa
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16:32<andythenorth>there is a valid industry, collecting sea logs
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---Logclosed Mon Nov 21 00:00:52 2016