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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-11-26

---Logopened Sat Nov 26 00:00:59 2016
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00:26<Flygon>Is there a chart that shows pax. loading speeds for non-Metro EMUs?
00:27<Flygon>I'm interested on if the Red Rattlers do actually unload/reload as fast as Metro EMUs, given they're almost entirely doors
00:27<Flygon>http://www.westonlangford.com/media/photos/112813.jpg Each handle has a door attached @_@
00:36-!-Flygon_ [~Flygon@124.149.140.249] has joined #openttd
00:36-!-Flygon_ is "Flygon" on #openttd
00:37<sim-al2>Pretty narrow doors though
00:39<Flygon_>Yeah, but half the EMU is still doors :U
00:39<Flygon_>Sliding Door sets had a similiar quirk
00:39<Flygon_>(They're both rebuilds of carriage-only stock, only door types differentiated them)
00:40<Flygon_>(Hence, everyone just called them both Red Rattlers. Electronically and mechanically the same thing)
00:40<sim-al2>Don't forget that the guard or station staff might have to close doors left open
00:40<Flygon_>http://www.pjv101.net/cd/images/c225m.jpg Sliding ver.
00:40<Flygon_>Trust me, they didn't give a crap :D
00:40<Flygon_>It was very
00:41<Flygon_>VERY common for Swing Door sets to run around with their doors left open
00:41<sim-al2>Wouldn't the doors hit if two trains with doors open passed each other?
00:41<Flygon_>...this did, incidentally, result in door removals caused by the doors hidding a tunnel wall
00:41<Flygon_>Nah, the loading gauge wasn't that tight
00:41<sim-al2>I don't know how generous the metropolitan loading gauge is
00:41<Flygon_>Keep in mind, when they converted a fair few of the Swing Door sets, some were 40 years old
00:42<sim-al2>lol losing doors is still kinda bad
00:42<sim-al2>Might make a big mess
00:42<Flygon_>They had 40 years to think about if they really REALLY wanted to convert them all to sliding doors :D
00:42<Flygon_>Well, it certainly made the EMUs/Steam Hauled units look like they had gaps in the teeth
00:42<Flygon_>OH&S simply didn't exist
00:42<Flygon_>But, yeah
00:43<Flygon_>Keep in mind, we were like, the Southern Hemisphere's busiest railway from the 1860s through to... 1960sish (?)
00:43-!-Flygon [~Flygon@124.149.140.249] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:43<Flygon_>VR clearly saw the benefit in having more doors than a rich person's house
00:43-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
00:43<sim-al2>lol
00:44<Flygon>Though, the EMUs they got in the 1950s had only three (quite wide) doors, so presumably some revised math came in around then
00:44<sim-al2>Seems to be quite similar to UK practice, where suburban EMUs had a similar deisgn going
00:44<Flygon>Keep in mind, more doors = Less pax capacity
00:44<Flygon>Yeah, well, we were a British colony :P
00:45<Flygon>Our technological evolution was basically "Clone British stock, then see what cool shit the Germans and Americans are doing and clone that too"
00:45<sim-al2>I suppose it's a viable design for high level platforms, probably explains why the UK stuck with it long after the Europeans moved to more familar designs
00:46<sim-al2>Hell I think BR still had some compartment-type EMUs running in the mid 80's
00:47<Flygon>Yeah. We went with high-level platforms since the 1850s
00:47<Flygon>Or - As soon as we laid the first track, really.
00:47<Flygon>But, yeah
00:48<Flygon>http://www.brownfam.com.au/ROLL48/ROLL48_files/image005.jpg Eventually, we evolved into this sort of design (iirc, a clone of a British or Canadian design)
00:49<Flygon>"Near South Yarra. It was arranged for the special to parallel the Harris suburban train as far as Caulfield so that fans could photograph and film the special on the way. I stayed on the special and photographed the Harris. Considering that there are preserved Swing-door trains and no preserved Harris trains, it was fortunate."
00:51<Flygon>But, yeah. 3 (wide) doors on Harrises, but better pax capacity. It was the design Melbourne used ever since (Including on X'traps... I still wish 2CC set had a toggle for X'traps to be both Chilean and Australian :B), except for the Siemens.
00:51<Flygon>But the Siemens was enough of a shitstorm for them to be blacklisted from Government-related Railway projects >_>
00:52<Flygon>But, yeah, sim-al2 - http://www.brownfam.com.au/ROLL48/ROLL48_files/image016.jpg
00:52-!-user_8475 [6dc98930@107.161.19.109] has joined #openttd
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00:52<Flygon>There was enough space between the tracks that the doors, swinging out, could never really hit another train
00:52<user_8475>allah is doing
00:52<sim-al2>Oh I see
00:52<user_8475>sun is not doing allah is doing
00:52<user_8475>moon is not doing allah is doing
00:52<sim-al2>?
00:53<Flygon>Oh, for fucks sake. Not another bot.
00:53<user_8475>stars are not doing allah is doing
00:53<user_8475>planets are not doing allah is doing
00:53<Flygon>Paging planetmaker Rubidium Terkhen orudge
00:53<sim-al2>Does this happen a lot?
00:53<user_8475>galaxies are not doing allah is doing
00:53<user_8475>oceans are not doing allah is doing
00:53<Flygon>And peter1138, derp
00:53<user_8475>mountains are not doing allah is doing
00:53<Flygon>Any OPs, anyway :U
00:53<user_8475>trees are not doing allah is doing
00:53<user_8475>mom is not doing allah is doing
00:53<user_8475>dad is not doing allah is doing
00:53<Flygon>sim-al2: Enough so that it's become kinda blase
00:54<user_8475>boss is not doing allah is doing
00:54<user_8475>job is not doing allah is doing
00:54<sim-al2>Hmm that picture makes the swing-door trains look pretty narrow actually
00:54<user_8475>dollar is not doing allah is doing
00:54<user_8475>degree is not doing allah is doing
00:54<sim-al2>Also my boss is totally doing
00:54<user_8475>medicine is not doing allah is doing
00:54<Flygon>sim-al2: Yeah. VR were quite conservative when they tried.
00:54<user_8475>customers are not doing allah is doing
00:54<user_8475>you can not get a job without the permission of allah
00:55<Flygon>This same sort of thing results in things like "Heavy Harry" managing to look gigantically imposing, while being not too much bigger than the biggest of British locomotives.
00:55<user_8475>you can not get married without the permission of allah
00:55<sim-al2>Ok mr bot is getting annoying now
00:55<user_8475>nobody can get angry at you without the permission of allah
00:55<Flygon>(Harry's tiny compared to some American locos. But 4.5k horsepower still isn't much to scoff at. They packed a lot of shit into a relatively tight loading gauge)
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00:56<Flygon>(Was also VR's first loco to use three cylinders... VR really really wanted to keep maintainence costs down on any loco)
00:56<Flygon>Well, that was anti-climactic
00:56-!-user_8475 [6dc98930@107.161.19.109] has joined #openttd
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00:56<Flygon>Oh.
00:56<user_8475>light is not doing allah is doing
00:56<sim-al2>Oh god it's back
00:56<user_8475>fan is not doing allah is doing
00:56<user_8475>businessess are not doing allah is doing
00:56<user_8475>america is not doing allah is doing
00:56<Flygon>I mean, I'd spam a lot of weird furry porn into it's inbox with /query, but that's probably against some sort of OFTC policy
00:56<user_8475>fire can not burn without the permission of allah
00:57<sim-al2>Also this is some really terrible philosphical interpretation
00:57<Flygon>IS DorpsGek on?
00:57<Flygon>I'm not sure anyone mods are actually on
00:57<user_8475>knife can not cut without the permission of allah
00:57<sim-al2>I have a suspicion that nobody actually checks the bot's PMs anyway
00:57<Flygon>And I have no idea if we're allowed to drag network opers into this, given this's ambiguously either a bot, or a teenager :U
00:58<Flygon>Yeah, but the idea is to DDoS the bot into disconnecting with weird porn :U
00:58<Flygon>Like, weird, not disgusting.
00:58<sim-al2>Well I think that the bot can safely be considered spam
00:58<Flygon>True, but it's still channel spam.
00:58<Flygon>Urgh, I don't know enough about OFTC's internal beaurocracy.
00:59<user_8475>rulers are not doing allah is doing
00:59<Flygon>Like, this other network I'm on, the rules are EXPLICITLY clear that opers don't interfere with individual channel's affairs
00:59<user_8475>governments are not doing allah is doing
00:59<Flygon>But there is provisions to handle spambots, or in this case, a guy that's clearly reading the chatroom text :U
01:00<user_8475>sleep is not doing allah is doing
01:00<Flygon>http://pics.victrainz.com.au/Rods/Harris_Electrics_and_Country_Cars_/bl652.jpg Huh, they look quite weird in green
01:00<user_8475>hunger is not doing allah is doing
01:00<Flygon>(They're traditonally Blue-Yellow)
01:00<sim-al2>Speaking of sleep I need to do that soon
01:00<sim-al2>tbh I think the green and gold looks nice
01:01<Flygon>Oh jeeze, I just nearly crashed my client using /list
01:01<Flygon>I forgot how big OFTC is
01:01<Flygon>sim-al2: Yeah, but it's still an odd colour if you're use to Royal Blue :D
01:01<user_8475>food does not take away the hunger allah takes takes away the hunger
01:01<Flygon>http://tdu.to/a35927/Harris 788M - Flinders St - 25-Feb-1987.jpg In colour
01:01<Flygon>You'll need to copypasta that URL
01:02<user_8475>water does not take away the thirst allah takes away the thirst
01:02<user_8475>seeing is not doing allah is doing
01:02<user_8475>hearing is not doing allah is doing
01:02<user_8475>seasons are not doing allah is doing
01:02<user_8475>weather is not doing allah is doing
01:02<user_8475>humans are not doing allah is doing
01:02<Flygon>Dafuk, he's on about Weather now?
01:03<user_8475>animals are not doing allah is doing
01:03<Flygon>Everyone knows the Weather's caused by British conversation.
01:03<user_8475>the best amongst you is he who learns the quran and teaches it
01:04<Flygon>sim-al2: http://www.trainbuilder.com/img/hcars2.jpg There's also the Yellow variants, but they're only used for Greasers (historically). Quite gnarly looking.
01:04<Flygon>It looks like a log of cheese
01:04<sim-al2>lol
01:04<sim-al2>Looks like some kind of maintainence paint scheme
01:04<Flygon>Exactly :D
01:04<Flygon>It was used to grease the rails
01:05<user_8475>one letter read from book of allah amounts to one good deed and allah multiplies one good deed ten times
01:05<sim-al2>Kinda funny that almost every railway uses a similar shade of yellow for MoW stuff
01:05<user_8475>hearts get rusted as does iron with water to remove rust from heart recitation of quran and rememberance of death
01:05<sim-al2>Well I guess modern equipment isn't necessairly so, but still
01:05<Flygon>Modern equipment here is...
01:05<user_8475>heart is likened to a mirror
01:06<user_8475>when a person commits one sin a black dot sustains the heart
01:06<sim-al2>I've seen the small self-propelled stuff that use they during heavy maintainence in orange paint a lot
01:07<sim-al2>But yeah a lot of track machinery is yellow
01:07<Flygon>http://vicsig.net/suburban/photos/20120306-t377-iev102-t376-scs-ig.jpg This is our newest maintainence train. The locos and EMU unit are 60 years old.
01:07<user_8475>to accept islam say that i bear witness that there is no deity worthy of worship except allah and muhammad peace be upon him is his slave and messenger
01:07<Flygon>The EMU is a Harris unit, seriously.
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01:07<sim-al2>Inspection unit I assume?
01:07<Flygon>It was converted to non-self propelled running
01:07<Flygon>Then re-converted to electric running between locos
01:07<Flygon>sim-al2: Yeah.
01:08<Flygon>https://railgallery.wongm.com/albums/em100/E115_0811.jpg A unit that wasn't made from a box of scraps
01:08<Flygon>Not that it doesn't look it :P
01:08<sim-al2>Yeah I figured that with the dome on the roof and decidely non-standard pantographs, but you never know
01:08<sim-al2>wow that's rather interesting
01:09<Flygon>Well, Harris Pantos haven't been made in 60 years. Gotta give-em a break for improvising. :P
01:09<user_8475>read book http://www.fazaileamaal.com
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01:09<user_8475>read book http://www.muntakhabahadith.com
01:09<sim-al2>Yes random bot I'm going to click on your sketchy links
01:10<Flygon>Finding an oper
01:10<user_8475>need spiritual teacher visit http://www.alhaadi.org.za
01:10<user_8475>allah created the sky without any pillars
01:11<sim-al2>We do have some converted locomotives like that: https://500px.com/photo/10526447/herzog-mow-locomotive-by-felipe-garcia
01:11<user_8475>allah makes the sun rise from the east and allah makes the sun set in the west
01:11<sim-al2>I assume the new cab and (partial) body rework is for crew comfort
01:12<Flygon>And the OFTC website is cryptic as to who to PM
01:12<sim-al2>You can see the orginal portion at the top and rear
01:12<Flygon>Oh, wow
01:12<Flygon>Yeah, I can see what you mean :D
01:12<user_8475>allah makes the day into the night and allah makes the night into the day
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01:13<Flygon>Oh, hey, kode54
01:13<kode54>hello
01:13<kode54>I was already on this network anyway
01:14<kode54>figured I'd help report the mess, but it looks like the idiot has gone
01:14<Flygon>Noo, he's still here
01:14<Flygon>user_8475
01:14<kode54>oh
01:14<Flygon>But he's gone mysteriously silent. Maybe your aura shut him up. :U
01:14<Flygon>Until he resumes again.
01:15<Flygon>sim-al2: They look kinda like Hippos
01:15<sim-al2>Hmmm I see that in some photos the Harris units had only a driver-side window while some others have windows on both sides
01:15<sim-al2>lol they do
01:15<Flygon>Yeah, iirc, the later ones got two Windows due to drivers kinda sorta wanting them.
01:15<kode54>well
01:16<kode54>the IP is ramnode
01:16<kode54>the ident is another valid IP
01:16<Flygon>Every time he's /quit and rejoined, it's been the same hostmask.
01:16<kode54>109.201.131.48 is the ident
01:16<Flygon>I'm beginning to suspect the bot just ran out of stuff to spam
01:17<kode54>another vps account
01:17-!-Elec_A [~oftc-webi@2605:a000:ea92:b700:2eb2:9d16:5d92:1c2] has joined #openttd
01:17-!-Elec_A is "OFTC WebIRC Client" on #openttd
01:17<kode54>either it's the originator, or this guy is bouncing multiple times
01:18<sim-al2>Dropped a .org.za web link
01:18<kode54>good old south africa
01:19<kode54>last I recall, they were linking to Quran reference sites
01:19<sim-al2>That only begs further questions
01:19<sim-al2>Yeah they are
01:19<sim-al2>I think, not really planning to click on them without precautions
01:20<sim-al2>Flygon there's also a non-powered (I think) variant also rebuilt from a locomotive: http://66.media.tumblr.com/c1371bf3c6d957eee6579f17e8504359/tumblr_nj3zablflf1qaxd5wo2_1280.jpg
01:20<sim-al2>Although it could defintely have a genset in there
01:20<Flygon>I wonder why they'd have it non-powered
01:20<Flygon>Sensitivity of the equipment?
01:21<sim-al2>Oh whoops it is powered
01:22<Flygon>btw, it would seem Red Rattlers in the 2CC-set have near-Metro-like speeds in unloading/reloading
01:22<Flygon>It seems the set designers took into account the amount of doorage
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01:23<sim-al2>Although 2cc also has the RENFE high-speed trains with metro-like loading speed, so maybe take it with a grain of salt
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01:23<Flygon>The ones that look like a duck?
01:23<sim-al2>Ok yeah I think those units are all actually locomotives, even the ones with completely new bodies: http://rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2951501
01:24<Flygon>Though, the RENFE HST may've been a bug
01:24<sim-al2>Err not the duck ones, the regional 250 km/h ones
01:24<Flygon>Hmm
01:24<Flygon>Wait, got a unit type ID for me?
01:24-!-Alberth [~alberth@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
01:24-!-Alberth is "purple" on #openttd
01:24-!-mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
01:24<sim-al2>I can't remember the class name right now, but it loads incredibly quickly
01:24<Flygon>Also, I wonder if they're using that-
01:24<Flygon>Alberth
01:24<Flygon>Thank god you're here
01:24<@Alberth>oh dear
01:24<kode54>okay
01:24<kode54>I see now
01:24<kode54>that ip is someone's kiwiirc server
01:25<kode54>and the ident is the ip address they're connected from
01:25<Flygon>While user_8475's quiet as fuck atm, he's actually an Allah-bot
01:25<Flygon>HE would not shut up for 45 minutes
01:25<Flygon>I couldn't get a hold of any oper's
01:25<kode54>feel free to report them both to their respective ISPs
01:25<Flygon>And kode54's been biopsying the shit out of this
01:25<kode54>or owners
01:25<kode54>I wouldn't call it much effort
01:25<kode54>just whois on two ip addresses
01:25<Flygon>I know you can't quite trust me until he restarts his babbling, but I'm gonna have to ask for a good /kickban when he does. @_@
01:25<sim-al2>Flygon RENFE 120
01:26<kode54>and recognizing that 8 digit hex ident as an ip address
01:26<sim-al2>Even though the real thing was one narrow-ish door per car
01:26<kode54>and now that recent quit, since it managed to stay connected long enough to advertise its default quit message
01:26<@Alberth>I think you have very wrong ideas about me
01:27<Flygon>Oh, yeah, that's definitely not suppose to load fadt
01:27<Flygon>Phone
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01:33<Flygon>back
01:33<Flygon>But yeah
01:33-!-user_8475 [6dc98930@107.161.19.109] has quit []
01:33<Flygon>That RENFE is definitely not suppose to load that fast
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01:33<Flygon>Alberth: You're the first ANYONE with the power to do something to be able to help x.x
01:33<Flygon>You're actually AWAKE
01:34<@Alberth>ha, not really :p
01:34<Flygon>???
01:35<Flygon>Aren't ya staff?
01:37<user_8475>allah gives life and allah gives death
01:38<Flygon>Annnd there he fucking goes
01:38<user_8475>all creation are useless,worthless,hopeless
01:38<user_8475>can not do
01:38<Flygon>Alberth: But... you got the OP powers @_@
01:38<user_8475>can not benefit
01:38<user_8475>can not harm
01:38<user_8475>allah is the doer of each and everything
01:38<user_8475>when allah wants us to stand we stand
01:39<user_8475>when allah wants us to sit we sit
01:39<kode54>Alberth: ^
01:39<@Alberth>yeah, but so little clue what to type :(
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01:39<kode54>okay, I don't know what to think about that
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01:39<user_8475>i am not doing allah is doing
01:40<user_8475>you are not doing allah is doing
01:40<user_8475>atom bomb is not doing allah is doing
01:40<Flygon>Alberth: We'll record the user data
01:40<kode54>you can /mode #openttd +b *!6dc98930@107.161.19.109
01:40<user_8475>rice is not doing allah is doing
01:40<Flygon>And, yeah
01:40<Flygon>Do what kode54 typed @_@
01:40<kode54>and /kick #openttd user_8475 bye
01:40<user_8475>all creation get together can not create one grain of rice
01:40-!-mode/#openttd [+b *!6dc98930@107.161.19.109] by Alberth
01:40<kode54>that'll shut him up
01:41<kode54>why are you an op if you don't know common IRC management commands?
01:41<Flygon>Community leader
01:41-!-user_8475 was kicked from #openttd by Alberth [bye]
01:41<kode54>oh
01:41<sim-al2>wow that bot was really getting around
01:41<@Alberth>thanks
01:42<Flygon>Thank you, a tonne, kode54 >_<
01:42<kode54>that will keep that particular user out
01:42<kode54>no telling if that IP will do other idents
01:42<kode54>in case this idiot has other shells they can connect through
01:42<kode54>Flygon: no proble
01:42<kode54>m
01:42<sim-al2>In a bunch of debian channels, mingw channels, and https-everywhere
01:42<kode54>I'll see about reporting that combination of ips to their owners
01:43<kode54>kiwiirc owner will probably want to ban whoever that is, if they care about their server
01:44<@Alberth>thanks
01:45<kode54>you're welcome
01:46<Flygon>We do need to work on getting additional staff. Allahbots keep popping up around this time.
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01:50<user_9484>all humans get together can not stop rain
01:50<user_9484>all humans get together can not make anybody hungry
01:50<Flygon>Paging kode54, Alberth
01:51<user_9484>all humans get together can not move sun one second up or down
01:51<user_9484>we can not count the hair on our head
01:51<Flygon>This may be a good time to teach Alberth just HOW the specific ban method was come up with.
01:51<user_9484>we can not count the rain drops
01:51<user_9484>we can not count the particles of sand
01:51<user_9484>medicine has no power to cure
01:51<Flygon>btw, this same user's in a fucktonne of channels already
01:51<Flygon>We should probably try and get an OPER in
01:51<Flygon>aka. Network Admin
01:51<user_9484>two people take same medicine one passes away and one does not
01:52<user_9484>degree has no power to give job
01:52<user_9484>many people have degrees but do not have jobs
01:52<user_9484>sustenance does not depend on effort
01:52<@Alberth>yep, it won't do much good
01:52<Flygon>I mean, it'll shut it up in #openttd, at the very least
01:52<user_9484>one person is working very much but is earning very less
01:52<@Alberth>a /ignore works too :p
01:52<user_9484>other person is working very less but is earning very much
01:53<Flygon>They said that about School bullies, and it never got to the root cause of the problem :U
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02:12<kode54>wow
02:12<kode54>another one
02:12<kode54>same kiwi server, different remote ip
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02:16<kode54>another nforce.com user
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02:22<@Alberth>maybe irc is just a bad idea :p
02:23<Elec_A>Hello, May I ask someone please tell me, which file contains the main function of openttd? I am search the files but I cannot find it.
02:23<Elec_A>searching*
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02:27<Elec_A>depend.cpp, endian_check.cpp and G5_detector.cpp contain "int main" but none of them are the main function of the program.
02:28<Elec_A>I think I found it. it is in openttd.cpp
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02:35<andythenorth>o/
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02:44<@Alberth>o/
02:45<@Alberth>Elec_A: there is src/os/* the main entry point for each type of OS, which then points to openttd.cpp
02:46<@Alberth>not sure how useful that is though, it will take ages of searching before finding the low level stuff, that way
02:47<andythenorth>who ever though this was a good idea (that graph is crazy) :) http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#extreme
02:47<Elec_A>Alberth: Thank you. I'm just interested in studying the code. I'm not going to put my whole time on it. I thought maybe it would be a good programming exercise.
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02:48<@Alberth>andythenorth: it's useful for BB :)
02:49<andythenorth>if the graph had been available when I was designing Extreme, it would have come out very differently :)
02:49<@Alberth>Elec_A: it may be more useful to study a particular area, openttd.cpp does a lot of high level stuff, calling other high level stuff, it's very easy to get completely lost there
02:49<andythenorth>‘designing’ is th wrong word even :P
02:49<@Alberth>"throwing together" works :p
02:50<@Alberth>I think it was a good strategy though, you could concentrate on making sprites,and getting the code generation up
02:51<Elec_A>Alberth: So how can you add stuff to this game when you don't have overall understanding of the code? you know what I mean? Imagine you are going to add another window to the game, don't you need to write the code of that window in a way that it works optimally with other areas?
02:52<andythenorth>optimally is the wrong quality measure there
02:52<@Alberth>Elec_A: I know, working in openttd code since 2007, haven't studied 1/2 of it yet :p
02:52<andythenorth>openttd is quite similar to working on a big web app
02:53<andythenorth>lots of it is quite boxed off, independent, and there’s no sense of a single purpose or vision
02:53<Elec_A>Alberth: wow, So don't you think you have reduced the efficiency of the code? :)
02:53<andythenorth>other aspects tangle their way through everything
02:53<andythenorth>the primary efficiency goal is probably avoiding network desyncs
02:53<Elec_A>andythenorth: oh got it.
02:53<andythenorth>and then making it easy to delete / change / code review
02:53*andythenorth is guessing
02:54<andythenorth>my included patches count is about 2
02:54<andythenorth>and one of those is sprites
02:54<@Alberth>well, you typicially look at some other windows to get some ideas how it looks. Then you study the area whatever you want to display or control from the window, then start experimenting
02:54<@Alberth>Elec_A: at 300,000+ lines of code, nobody knows every detail
02:55<Elec_A>andythenorth: you know when I write a code and when I want to add some new features, I see that If I redo a major part of the code, it would run faster.
02:55<@Alberth>so as andy says, you work in sub-areas
02:55<andythenorth>in some places, I suspect this is the best mental model for it :P http://thecodelesscode.com/case/33
02:55<andythenorth>(scroll to picture)
02:56<Elec_A>Alberth: I see. what a great reference is that! Thank you !
02:56<Elec_A>I mean andythenorth :)
02:56<Elec_A>andythenorth: Thats a great reference.
02:57<andythenorth>I don’t think it’s a fair representation of a lot of the code :)
02:57<@Alberth>and yeah, we might have a sub-optimal piece of code, in fact, I am quite sure of that. Rewriting it is no option though
02:58<@Alberth>at best, you find these things, and locally improve
02:58<Elec_A>Alberth: Oh, thank you, so we cannot say that openttd is 100% optimal
02:58<Elec_A>It is interesting.
02:58<@Alberth>I don't think you can say that either for any of your programs
02:59<@Alberth>it would mean you have verified the solution against all other possible solutions, and found no better one
02:59<@Alberth>since "all other possible solutions" is infinitely large, that would take a while
03:00<andythenorth>openttd is ‘optimal’ in that it is one of the most successful open source games
03:00<@Alberth>oh, did I mention the program runs at a multitude of CPUs and operating systems?
03:01<@Alberth>and motherboards, disk speeds, memory speeds, etc etc
03:01<Elec_A>Alberth: Actually, when I'm talking about being optimal, What comes into my mind is some optimizations in loops and memory consumption. So instead of going through a large loop, using a parralel loop is optimization in my point of view, or reducing the number of generated classes to avoid memory leakages is what I meant.
03:02<@Alberth>oh, not doing obviously stupid stuff :)
03:02<@Alberth>yep, we do that :)
03:02<@Alberth>for as far as possible
03:02<Elec_A>andythenorth: I agree with that. I love this opensource game :)
03:03<Elec_A>Alberth: Oh, Ok. very motivating to learn what's going on in behind the scenes :) (I mean source code)
03:03<@Alberth>but clarity in code comes first, compilers tend to be fairly smart in doing smaller optimizations
03:04<@Alberth>Elec_A: partly yeah, it also spoils the game, as you know what the code does exactly, rather than guessing its intelligence :p
03:05<@Alberth>contributors come and leave, and the next person must be able to pick up and make the next step, at all times
03:05<Elec_A>Alberth: from a discussion, I remember that, A friend told me try to write your code in Python and just convert those part that needs optimization to C++. Do you agree with that? Why openttd is not in Python ?
03:06<Elec_A>Python is much more readable :
03:06<Elec_A>:)
03:07<@Alberth>ever tried writing and maintaining a Python program for several years with say 30,000 lines?
03:07<andythenorth>python would likely be much slower, is one reason
03:07<andythenorth>python is slow
03:07*andythenorth cannot back that with objective facts
03:07<Elec_A>Alberth: Nope. Your questioning tone explains everything :)
03:08<Elec_A>andythenorth: Ok. got it.
03:08<@Alberth>it has no compile-time checking of types, so it may take years before some edge case happens, and it blows up due to a undefined variable or so
03:08<andythenorth>I have no benchmarks, but I run a company that almost exclusively writes python web apps
03:09<andythenorth>I don’t think python is where you’d start for cross-platform performance of a mid-sized game with multiplayer, on a very wide range of hardware
03:09<@Alberth>also, origin of openttd is from assembly language, at a time that Python barely existed
03:09<Elec_A>I'm hearing mind blowing stuff, thank you guys.
03:10<@Alberth>but for smaller size programs and limited number of operating systems, Python approach does make sense
03:11<@Alberth>but eg Windows is already a major challenge, no Python installed by default, no C/C++ compiler
03:11<Elec_A>that's right.
03:11<@Alberth>just getting your optimized program to run is a major hassle
03:12<andythenorth>dunno, these might be cherry-picked benchmarks, it’s easy to make a case with dubious numbers, but http://benchmarksgame.alioth.debian.org/u64q/compare.php?lang=python3&lang2=gpp
03:13<@Alberth>running low level computations in python is a bad idea
03:14<@Alberth>ie "mandelbrot" is not a friendly Python program :)
03:14<Elec_A>andythenorth: I've seen this benchmark before, the thing is that when they say Python it is a pure Python code. The point I was making was to profile a python code and convert the most time consuming part to C++. but according to what you both said before it does not really worth it.
03:14<@Alberth>Python is good at glueing libraries together
03:14<Elec_A>Alberth: I like that glueing stuff. I agree.
03:15<@Alberth>Elec_A: it is, if you move the main mandelbrot function to C, and call it from Python, you get near the C speed
03:15<@Alberth>that's what Python is designed for
03:16<Elec_A>right.
03:16<@Alberth>ie, move the 10% code that does 90% of the computation time to C, and write the other 90% of the code in nice Python
03:17<@Alberth>although I typically don't care for speed, as long as it's < 8 hours
03:18<Elec_A>Alberth: but the fact that python does not really compile the code to find the compile-time errors is a major drawback.
03:18<@Alberth>it's hard to make speed improvements such that dev-time + waiting-time is optimized
03:19<Elec_A>That completely makes sense based on what I learned here.
03:19<@Alberth>Elec_A: yep, if you want to see that yourself, come to the corsix-th project, 40,000 lines lua, no documentation, no compile time checking, loads of bugs with deep causes :p
03:20<Elec_A>Alberth: Haha, :) I really had a great time discussing with you. I need to go, its late at night here :) its almost 3:30am :)
03:20<@Alberth>ok, bye
03:20<Elec_A>bye :)
03:20<Elec_A>and Thank you again.
03:20<@Alberth>yw
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04:19<Wolf01>o/
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04:36<@Alberth>o/
04:46<__ln__> /
04:46<__ln__>o/
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04:56<@Alberth>_/
05:03<Wolf01>\
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05:12<Wolf01>o/
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05:13<Wolf01>Meh, I scared the cat
05:15<@Alberth>he'll be back :)
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05:15<Wolf01>Yup :)
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05:44<andythenorth>such FIRS research
05:45<andythenorth>Wolf01 o/ also
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05:45<Wolf01>We put on another lego black market in the restaurant's parking lot yesterday evening :P
05:45<Wolf01>I finally have the whole mixel series
05:46<andythenorth>ha
05:46<andythenorth>those ball joints always seem like they should be useful
05:46<andythenorth>but never are somehow :)
05:47<Wolf01>I make mechs, they are useful :P But mixels stay mixels
05:47<andythenorth>fair
05:48<andythenorth>so steel making needs limestone (into the blast furnace) and lime (quicklime / calcinated dolomite)
05:48<andythenorth>is lime bulk, liquid, covered? or what?
05:48<andythenorth>‘lime’ in english is pretty generic, it covers a wide range of industrial products derived from limestone
05:49<andythenorth>google is not my friend today
05:49<@Alberth>'what' seems a nice option
05:49<Wolf01>Usually bulk, could be covered too, at least of what I have seen on tv
05:50<andythenorth>https://farkham4mm.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/pab.jpg
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05:50<andythenorth>apparently ^
05:51<andythenorth>I actually have a half-finished build of that type of wagon, from 20 years ago :P
05:51<@Alberth>usually a bit larger, but yep :)
05:51<andythenorth>scratchbuild
05:51<@Alberth>scratchhalfbuild, thus
05:51<andythenorth>http://www.industriallime.com/images/tanker3.jpg
05:53<andythenorth>can’t find any evidence of it being transported as liquid
05:53<@Alberth>"tanker" is not always a ship, apparently :)
05:53<andythenorth>no :)
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06:27<andythenorth>‘lime’ or ‘quicklime'
06:37<@Alberth>unless you have more than 1 lime kind, prefixes don't add much, do they?
06:37<@Alberth>and quick lime immediately raises the question of what slow lime would be :p
06:42<andythenorth>‘lime’ in some places is just crushed stone, applied to farm fields
06:43<andythenorth>‘quicklime’ has been through a lime kiln, and is a caustic chemical
06:43<andythenorth>but both are called ‘lime’ in common use :P
06:49<@Alberth>as long as no confusion is possible :)
06:52<andythenorth>ach LIME cargo label is taken for limestone
06:52<@Alberth>QLME or QLIM :)
06:54<andythenorth>ta
06:56<@Rubidium>andythenorth: 'CaO '
06:56<andythenorth>:D
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07:56<+michi_cc>Alberth: Seen the screenshot directly above the linked heading at https://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/news/releasenotes/vs2017-relnotes#c-installation-workloads ?
08:00<@Alberth>ha, we're famous :D
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08:00<@Alberth>LordAro: ^
08:01*LordAro awakens from slumber
08:01<LordAro>hrm?
08:02<LordAro>:D
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08:34<Wolf01>Quak
08:35<@Alberth>o/
08:37<frosch123>moin
08:39*andythenorth adds a coke oven
08:39<andythenorth>dunno about that though
08:39<andythenorth>steel chain is getting bonkers long, to get any final cargo out
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08:41<@Alberth>keeping players busy :)
08:42<@Alberth>"extreme steel" :p
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09:17<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
09:17<andythenorth>needs some basics, like a source of food :)
09:18<frosch123>i like the copper chain
09:20<andythenorth>nice isn’t it
09:21<andythenorth>I am not sure where to go with this next
09:21<andythenorth>it’s quite easy to split apart the steel production even further and more detailed
09:21<frosch123>total number of industries seems ok
09:21<andythenorth>or add more vectors to the final product
09:21<frosch123>you just need to clean up the cargos
09:21<andythenorth>e.g. electrical components etc
09:21<frosch123>remove the cargos with no source or destination
09:21<frosch123>and add the missnig cargos
09:21<andythenorth>ha yes
09:21<andythenorth>that
09:21<andythenorth>thanks :P
09:22<frosch123>like, make the port produce engsup instead of copper
09:23<frosch123>maybe also replace glass with aluminium
09:23<frosch123>that appears more steelish to me
09:24<frosch123>you could also try to make it focus on vehicles
09:24<frosch123>and add rubber imports
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09:25<frosch123>hmm, na, better idea: rename vehicles to rail vehicles :p
09:25<frosch123>cars are stupid, better make a train production chain
09:26<frosch123>chemicals + copper + plastics -> electronics ?
09:27<frosch123>(oh, there is already rubber)
09:27<andythenorth>there is a tyre plant
09:27<frosch123>maybe remove liquids terminal/oil/rubber? not related to trains
09:27<andythenorth>I was getting a bit carried away with charcoal and iron and stuff at the input end
09:27<andythenorth>I think vehicles are more interesting end maybe
09:27<frosch123>i think the iron/charcoal part is fine
09:28<andythenorth>or split out chemicals, but that’s all tankers
09:28<Wolf01>copper->copper plates->coils + iron->iron plates -> electronics
09:28<frosch123>Wolf01: no :p
09:28<andythenorth>electronics can go in a japan/china economy
09:28<Wolf01>electronics + plastic -> better electronics
09:28<andythenorth>I have about 4 more economies in mind, then it’s ‘done'
09:29<frosch123>ok, so you want to build old cars without electronics :)
09:29<Wolf01>Do a factorio economy
09:29<andythenorth>I thought about basic electrical machines factory
09:29<andythenorth>copper + such
09:29<andythenorth>or not
09:30<andythenorth>I could also split out vehicles
09:30<andythenorth>bodies + drivetrain + parts = vehicles
09:31<andythenorth>the main thing now is to find cargos that look interesting as loads
09:31<andythenorth>:D
09:32<frosch123>the standard steel mill add-ons would be roller mills and pipe mills
09:32<frosch123>but no idea how to continue from there :)
09:32<andythenorth>pipe mill = building materials
09:32<andythenorth>roller = plate -> shipyard, etc
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09:34<Wolf01>Is NRT? I finished to play with lego today, I need to order more parts to continue
09:36*andythenorth could NRT
09:37<andythenorth>give or take children wanting to build great ball chain contraptions
09:38<Wolf01>Give them some of the 2015-16 sets and make one module with each one
09:39<andythenorth>they ‘make’ things by searching youtube and saying ‘make me this’ :P
09:39<andythenorth>and GBC needs a lot of tuning
09:39<Wolf01>http://pv-productions.com/product-category/lego/ <-
09:40<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cGRuzbjWto look what you can build with the Claas
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09:48<andythenorth>awesome
09:48<andythenorth>GBC is nuts
09:49<andythenorth>I would never think of these mechanisms
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09:54<andythenorth>is it time for NRT vehicle stuff yet?
09:54<andythenorth>or are we still drawing?
09:54<andythenorth>frosch123: do we need road-depot ground tiles? o_O
09:54<Wolf01>We are still arguing on how NRT should be done
09:55<frosch123>andythenorth: we already have them?
09:55<andythenorth>we do?
09:55<frosch123>though they look like a rail depot :)
09:55*andythenorth hasn’t drawn any
09:55<andythenorth>oic :)
09:55<frosch123>Wolf01: are we?
09:56<frosch123>i am adding level crossings now
09:56<Wolf01>I think we finally decided for 15 types, but not sure
09:56<frosch123>i think i can also draw tram crossing without road
09:56<frosch123>Wolf01: yes we did
09:56<frosch123>thus m7 6..7 should be freed
09:56<andythenorth>frosch123: you can, I have a patch for that from years ago :)
09:56<frosch123>do you have a screenshot?
09:56*andythenorth looks
09:58<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8204/road-rail-crossing-10.png
09:59<Wolf01>Maglev crossing is ugly AF
09:59<andythenorth>I abandoned it because it got a ’meh’ response, didn’t look like it would get included and maglev looks stupid also
09:59<frosch123>yep, looks like i would draw them now
10:00<frosch123>hmm, actually not sure
10:00<frosch123>maybe they would look different
10:00<frosch123>not sure what is underlay/overlay for maglev
10:01<frosch123>anyway, maglev/monorail-tram-crossing does not look more stupid than the maglev/monorail-road-crossing :)
10:03<andythenorth>file it under ‘maglev is ugly’
10:03<andythenorth>in base set
10:03<andythenorth>ban crossings on maglev :P
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10:04<@Rubidium>actually the junctions of monorail and maglev are ugly as well
10:05<andythenorth>+1
10:05*andythenorth considers doing a maglev set
10:05<andythenorth>...nah
10:05<@Rubidium>though in theory I could imagine providing different sprites for the junctions based on the path reservation through it
10:05<@Rubidium>would even help normal rail switches in zoom-in level maximum
10:06<frosch123>i think newrailtypes already provide that
10:06<@Rubidium>i.e. based on the path reservation one tongue is open and the other closed (or
10:06<frosch123>they have custom level crossing graphics, and they can check the reservation stage
10:06<@Rubidium>whatever it's called in proper English)
10:07<@Rubidium>if that's the case, based on the reservation you could draw a different sprite
10:07<@Rubidium>i.e. with reservation draw the maglev, without it draw the tram/road as if the maglev is dropped below the road surface
10:08<andythenorth>that would look better
10:14<Wolf01>This https://grfcrawler.tt-forums.net/grf/235/TR_GC_L.png looked really good
10:15<andythenorth>hax :)
10:19<@Alberth>Rb: these maglev tracks are a lot better https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=75240
10:20<Wolf01>Yup, they look really cool
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10:23<andythenorth>bit heavy to my eye
10:23<andythenorth>not clear if they’re steel or concrete, or whatever
10:24<Wolf01>ROADSUBTYPE_END = 14, or better as 0xE?
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10:25<frosch123>14 is fine :)
10:27<andythenorth>:o
10:27<andythenorth>Steeltown economy does not have alcohol
10:27<andythenorth>that’s not standard
10:27<@Alberth>:D
10:28<Wolf01>Mmmh, no, it should be 15 not 14
10:29<Wolf01>I hope it won't confuse with INVALID_ROADSUBTYPE
10:29<@Alberth>inclusive or exclusive boundary? otherwise, you may want to name it *LAST
10:29<Wolf01>Which need to be 0xF
10:29<Wolf01>Exclusive
10:29<@Alberth>yeah, I guessed as much from the previous sentence :)
10:29<Wolf01>Is used to initialize arrays
10:29<@Alberth>should be fine
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10:33*andythenorth needs food
10:33<andythenorth>farm only?
10:34<Wolf01>andythenorth, how to reintegrate a branch? I think it's better to work directly on road-and-tram-types and just use local branches if needed
10:34<andythenorth>just merge it?
10:35<Wolf01>Ok, then I simply won't use anymore the "wolf" branch
10:36<andythenorth>yeah just merge your stuff into road-and-tram-types
10:37<Wolf01>frosch123, already did that some days ago
10:37<andythenorth>I’d only use a feature branch if we hit a stable point, and start something new, like vehicle routing
10:37<andythenorth>then we have a stable candidate, and unstable feature branch
10:42<frosch123>Wolf01: https://help.github.com/articles/deleting-unused-branches/
10:44<frosch123>https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/branches <- resp, the trash buttons on that page
10:44<Wolf01>Ok, we could delete some branches then, wolf, dev, gui...
10:45<frosch123>revert-9-master :)
10:45<Wolf01>Good, much clean now :P
10:46<@Alberth>:)
10:47<Wolf01>Is it possible to delete a forked repository too?
10:47<andythenorth>probably in github
10:47<andythenorth>you’re the owner so only you can do it probably
10:48<Wolf01>There's a delete in "danger zone"
10:48<andythenorth>it’s hard to keep git branches deleted btw :P
10:48<andythenorth>they tend to come back from the dead
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10:53<Wolf01>Ok, at least now removing the roadstop it restores normal road
10:53<Wolf01>I need to restore the right road type
10:55<andythenorth>\o/
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11:07<andythenorth>tyres, drivetrain components, windscreens, bodies, electrical parts, trim parts
11:07<andythenorth>6 into 3 don’t go :P
11:09<@Alberth>tires + drive train + bodies merge ?
11:10<@Alberth>or windscreens + electrical parts -> car doors?
11:10<andythenorth>I can consolidate parts in a warehouse
11:11<andythenorth>is IRL :P
11:11<@Alberth>not sure what trim parts are
11:11<andythenorth>seats and stuff
11:11<andythenorth>also plastci
11:11<andythenorth>plastic *
11:11<@Alberth>ah, things and stuff :)
11:11<andythenorth>but I don’t have textiles in this economy :)
11:11<andythenorth>so eh
11:12<andythenorth>engine plant -> drivetrain components
11:12<@Alberth>it's all fake leather :p
11:12<andythenorth>body plant -> vehicle bodies
11:12<@Alberth>you could make an "upgrade" factory to enhance the cars :)
11:12<andythenorth>ha ha
11:12<andythenorth>‘respray'
11:13<@Alberth>better seats, bigger engine, etc
11:13<andythenorth>‘level up'
11:13<@Alberth>:D
11:13<andythenorth>I dunno, the vehicle chain might be getting too detailed :P
11:13<andythenorth>it’s Steeltown not Motown
11:13*andythenorth exploring different options this could have
11:14<andythenorth>I kind of wanted to explore chemicals more
11:14<andythenorth>or slag -> cement
11:14<@Alberth>but you have chemicals elsewhere too, iirc
11:14<andythenorth>not in much detail
11:15<andythenorth>the downside, it’s all just tanker trucks / wagons
11:15<andythenorth>tankers -> more tankers
11:15<andythenorth>in different colours
11:15<@Alberth>clearly it needs an open tanker
11:16<@Alberth>and sprinkling colours, like neon light green, yellow, orange
11:16<andythenorth>fire cycle
11:16<@Alberth>all these silly RL ideas :p
11:17<@Alberth>nah, that would be the magic potion industry chain
11:17<andythenorth>glow sticks factory http://www.altereglow.co.uk/_images/_products_0/4_923_l.jpg
11:17<@Alberth>+1
11:18<andythenorth>biab
11:18<@Alberth>it only needs a glowing factory :p
11:19<frosch123>andythenorth: i think you added additional sprites for your crossing back then
11:20<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nrt_crossing_no_second_overlay.png https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nrt_crossing_no_second_overlay_ogfx.png
11:20<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nrt_crossing_with_second_overlay.png https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nrt_crossing_with_second_overlay_ogfx.png
11:20<frosch123>"with" looks better than "no" for everything but default roadf
11:21<frosch123>maglev is hopeless :)
11:21<frosch123>but newrailtypes should be fine
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11:30<Klanticus>hey guys, is there any way no name an order list?
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11:31<frosch123>no, you can only name vehicles and vehicle groups
11:31<frosch123>usualy people name vehicle groups and put all vehicles with shared orders into a group
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11:32<Klanticus>would you accept a patch to allow that?
11:33<frosch123>where would such a name be shown?
11:33<frosch123>you cannot select order list anywhere, can you?
11:34<Klanticus>I think it could be displayed inside the order list window, and on another window, showing all lists (by their name)
11:35<frosch123>so it adds a another way to group vehicles other than vehicle groups
11:35<Klanticus>ultimately i'd like to be able to display detailed information obout any order list
11:35<frosch123>do you know about vehicle groups
11:35<frosch123>you suggest something that is *very* similar to vehicle groups
11:36<frosch123>there are various patches which create tons of information for vehicle groups
11:36<Klanticus>the main problem with them is that you have to change them every time you add a new vehicle to a route
11:36<Klanticus>if that wasn't the case, they'd be great
11:37<frosch123>without thinking about the implications, i would think you rather want some setting like "automatically put vehicles with shared orders into new vehicle groups" or something
11:37<Sylf>You just can't select the set of orders from a drop-down list currently - you have to find a vehicle with the exact order you want to copy, then clone the vehicle/orders
11:37<@Alberth>generalizing vehicle groups could be an alternative path
11:37<frosch123>Klanticus: shared-cloning also copies the group
11:37<Sylf>So, the only thing that's missing is the UI for list of unique orders - that's what it sounds like to me
11:37<Klanticus>frosch123: really? That I didn't knew
11:38<Klanticus>so it looks like a better way is to work on top of vehicle groups
11:38<andythenorth>frosch123: I don’t remember drawing extra sprites, I wouldn’t have known how to add them to the game :)
11:39<andythenorth>I think I did abuse the PBS overlay sprite though
11:39<frosch123>andythenorth: i drew just those in the "with" screenshots
11:39<andythenorth>makes sense
11:39<frosch123>Klanticus: extending vehicle groups would make it less redunant/confusing imho
11:39<Klanticus>but I still think they would be more useable if tied to an order list, somehow
11:40<andythenorth>vehicle groups are more arbitrary than that
11:40<andythenorth>although arguably that’s a weakness
11:40<Klanticus>yeah.. there's no easy way to see how much profit I get from a route
11:41<Klanticus>I could add that statistic to vehicle groups, but then the player would need to keep it always up to date
11:41<Wolf01>andythenorth, enjoy your new roadstops
11:41<frosch123>i would suggest a setting "put vehicles automatically in a new vehicle group, when sharing orders and the vehicles are not yet in a group"
11:41<Wolf01>It still trigger an assert when removing the roadstops if you drag and drop an area without a roadstop inside
11:41<frosch123>Klanticus: there are already patches for vehicle group statistics
11:42<Wolf01>I''m not sure on what to do there
11:42<frosch123>Wolf01: i just fixed RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile wrt that
11:42*andythenorth pulls
11:42<Klanticus>frosch123: looks like a good idea. Are those patches on flyspray?
11:42<Wolf01>Uhm, I fixed it too
11:42<frosch123>all problems arise from using GetRoadBits instead of GetRoadTypes in various places
11:43<Wolf01>But GetRoadTypes should be deprecated, or changed to extract them from roadbits+subtypes
11:43<frosch123>Klanticus: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=72855 <- that is also part of jgr pack (assuming jgr would use the newest incarnation of patches like that)
11:45<Klanticus>frosch123: thanks! As a matter of curiosity, any reason for not merging it in trunk?
11:46<andythenorth>Wolf01: yay stops :)
11:47<frosch123>personally i don't care about money and spreadsheets in ottd. no idea about other people's opinion
11:48<frosch123>Wolf01: do not use roadbits, only subtypes
11:48<andythenorth>frosch123: if it was a train factory…train cargo? http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sbcc3rmBFRo/TzzJb5NhRUI/AAAAAAAADeo/ne6FfqzImJI/s1600/Vale%2BMining%2BEMD.jpg
11:48<frosch123>roadbits only exist for 1 of 5 tiletypes with road or something
11:52<Wolf01>if (GetAnyRoadBits(t, ROADTYPE_TRAM) != ROAD_NONE) { -> GB(_m[t].m4, 0, 4) != INVALID_ROAD_SUBTYPE ??
11:52<frosch123>why?
11:53<Wolf01>How would you do that?
11:53<frosch123>bool HasRoadTypeRoad(TileType tile) { return GetRoadSubtype(tile) == INVALID_ROADSUBTYPE; }
11:54<frosch123>the subtype specifies whether there is any road
11:54<frosch123>subtype exists for *all* roady tiles
11:54<frosch123>it needs a savegame conversion to move m7 6..7 to m4
11:55<Wolf01>But HasRoadTypeRoad uses RoadTypeIdentifiers, I'm creating the RoadTypeIdentifiers -> recursion
11:55<frosch123>but after that m4 can give the information that m7 had
11:55<Wolf01>I would change HasRoadTypeRoad to GB(_m[t].m4, 0, 4) != INVALID_ROAD_SUBTYPE
11:55<frosch123>RoadTypeIdentifiers can directly read m4
11:55<frosch123>it does not need to check any bits
11:58<Wolf01>I can't follow you
12:00<Wolf01>HasRoadTypeRoad/Tram(TileIndex t) are a bit weird and shouldn't use RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile() but instead check m4 imho
12:06<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pbiz8js5r?/pbiz8js5r <- i mean like that
12:06<frosch123>removing all usage of m7 and use m4 instead
12:06<frosch123>RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTile is very simple now
12:06<frosch123>it does not need to check tiletypes or similar
12:06<frosch123>because the INVALID is directly stored in m4
12:08<Wolf01>Oh, ok
12:09<andythenorth>ach
12:09*andythenorth is getting too obsessed with vehicle chain :(
12:16<Wolf01>Ok, this assers in GetRoadTypeInfo, somewhere the roadtype is 0xF
12:16<Wolf01>*asserts
12:16<frosch123>yes, that is my fault
12:16<frosch123>i was about to patch that
12:17<frosch123>i use GetRoadTypeInfo in all drawing functions, without checking the presence first
12:17<frosch123>just wait until i am done with dinner, then i can fix that :)
12:17<Wolf01>Np
12:17<andythenorth>hmm
12:18<andythenorth>‘paint’ is not an interesting cargo?
12:18<andythenorth>it moves in crates or cans, and not in high volume
12:18<andythenorth>might as well be chemicals or manufacturing supplies
12:19<frosch123>"paint" gets very interesting very fast, if you transport it in open vans
12:19<andythenorth>we don’t have particle generator
12:19<andythenorth>could use extended vehicle effects though
12:19<andythenorth>tyres are interesting visually? Or at least different?
12:20<andythenorth>http://www.bbscshipping.com/uploads/img/gallery/16_foto2.JPG
12:25<Wolf01>Because makyng them rolling was too easy?
12:25<Wolf01>*making
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12:34<andythenorth>‘vehicle bodies’ cargo? http://automotivelogistics.media/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Hyttlossning-3.jpg
12:37<Wolf01>There's a similar thing next to my town
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12:39<FLHerne>andythenorth: UKRS2 (+)? has some vehicle wagons, they look rather good
12:40<andythenorth>I drew them :)
12:40<andythenorth>‘just saying’ :)
12:40<FLHerne>Ah, that would be why they look so good :D
12:40<andythenorth>:P
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12:58<frosch123>Wolf01: pull
13:00<@Alberth>andy, the vehicle factory should make those big mining trucks :)
13:02<Wolf01>There's a strange overlay/underlay on everything with the changes to HasRoadTypeRoad/Tram, or do you see them too?
13:03<frosch123>yes, that is missing savegame conversion
13:03<frosch123>noone convers m7 to m4
13:03<frosch123>so all tiles get road+tram subtype 0
13:03<Wolf01>Oh, ok
13:16<andythenorth>Alberth: that’s the Machine Shop :)
13:16<andythenorth>file:///Users/andy/Documents/OTTD_graphics/FIRS/firs_build/docs/html/industries.html#machine_shop
13:16<andythenorth>oops
13:16<andythenorth>I should make a plugin for my irc client to stop doing that :P
13:16<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#machine_shop
13:19<@Alberth>nice :)
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14:26<andythenorth>slag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cn-XnwHvcQ4
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14:42<andythenorth>http://www.euroslag.com/
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14:47<andythenorth>ha
14:47<andythenorth>slag is being tested as marine fertiliser for seabeds that have become desert
14:47<andythenorth>deliver it to fishing grounds :P
14:49<andythenorth>‘ag slag’
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14:51<frosch123>i don't think they dump it in hot state
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15:08<andythenorth>we could pretend? o_O
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15:11<frosch123>with animation?
15:11<frosch123>like at the end of your video?
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15:20<andythenorth>it could be a method of fishing?
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15:22<tane>howdy
15:22<tane>is there a way to get data out of openttd, e.g. cargo waiting by station etc?
15:27<frosch123>there are gamescript, there is the admin port, there is source code
15:28<frosch123>there are gamescripts talking via the admin port with the outside world
15:28*andythenorth wonders if ‘slag’ cargo is going to produce childish reaction :P
15:28<frosch123>it all depends on your preconditions, whether you can modify the source, or whether you require an unmodified binary
15:31<tane>just trying to enhance my single player experience, so I can work on all of it, just trying to determine the work required and best way to access the data
15:32<Wolf01>andythenorth, transport fever has slag cargo
15:33<frosch123>without modifying the ottd source, i guess all other options are linked from https://wiki.openttd.org/Server_admin_port
15:33<frosch123>andythenorth: you mean everyone would read it as "slug"?
15:34<andythenorth>‘slag’ means something different in UK English :P
15:34<tane>frosch123, thanks
15:34<andythenorth>ha ha Train Fever comments are referencing FIRS http://www.transportfever.com/transport-fever-developer-blog-5-cargo-system/
15:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: are there any docs about TF cargos?
15:35*andythenorth can’t find them
15:37<Wolf01>"About 20 cargo types (six end products are required by towns)"
15:37<andythenorth>that’s all I could find :)
15:37<frosch123>andythenorth: http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/industrie403zbpy49jhm.png
15:38<frosch123>it even has a "smithy forge"
15:38<Wolf01>That's a mod
15:38<andythenorth>so I see :)
15:38<frosch123>is that a common name, or is that copied from firs? :p
15:38<andythenorth>from FIRS
15:39<frosch123>Wolf01: ah, then the mod copied it from firs :)
15:39<andythenorth>much of FIRS is copied from various Railroad Tycoon versions
15:39<Wolf01>https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=789179397
15:39<andythenorth>but that mod is basically FIRS in TF
15:39<Wolf01>You can also have different byproducts based on what you deliver to a factory
15:39<Wolf01>(cargo diagram at the end)
15:40<frosch123>ok, the plain tf chain looks a lot like ttd temperate
15:40<frosch123>i guess all standard :)
15:40<Wolf01>Yes, the only difference is the construction materials plant
15:41<frosch123>and the chemical plant
15:41<frosch123>andythenorth: tf firs has "paint" :)
15:42<andythenorth>:P
15:42<frosch123>no idea what a "sport factory" is
15:42<andythenorth>‘paint tanker'
15:42<frosch123>oh, it even replicated the stupid bank valuables cycle
15:44<frosch123>never mind, it's actually only a "suggestion" :p
15:44<@Alberth>:p
15:45<frosch123>and then many "does not work in tf due to X and Y bugs"
15:47<andythenorth>hmm
15:47<andythenorth>so steel slag is sometimes left to cool and then ‘mined’
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15:47<andythenorth>I could just fill the FIRS quarry with fire cycle
15:48<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/industries.html#quarry
15:49<andythenorth>http://research.ncl.ac.uk/engscc/assets/scunthorpe.jpg
15:49<andythenorth>made by https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bsve9ekIYAAHewH.jpg:large
15:50<andythenorth>even has the dragline :P http://www.clugston.co.uk/x/img/historyimg.jpg
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15:57<andythenorth>I’d have to recreate the fire cycle in frames though
15:58<andythenorth>it doesn’t work any more for me
16:04<@Alberth>nn
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19:13<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sun Nov 27 00:00:00 2016