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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-01

---Logopened Thu Dec 01 00:00:06 2016
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04:22<Wolf01>Moin
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08:27<andythenorth>o/
08:29<Wolf01>o/
08:33<andythenorth>is cats?
08:33<Wolf01>No, just depression
08:33<andythenorth>:|
08:34<andythenorth>tried ‘not depression’?
08:34<andythenorth>of the two options, ‘not’ is better
08:34<Wolf01>It's bound to money
08:34<Wolf01>Money = not depression, not money = depression
08:35<andythenorth>money = spending power = sense of autonomy, ability to meet needs
08:35<andythenorth>can’t eat money :)
08:35<Wolf01>+1
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08:40<Wolf01>o/
08:41<@Alberth>hi hi
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08:54<goodger>Wolf01: can confirm that money != not depression
08:57<Wolf01>You have a bf/gf? You have close friends? You don't have to deal with continuous harassment by your own country? You still have pets? At least I have some spare money, but I don't want to spend it because things can go even worse
08:58<Wolf01>Also, do you still have space in your room to put lego?
09:00<goodger>I have five years of cohabitation with what is essentially my husband, several friends, my country of birth is a hair's breadth away from going fascist, I have no pets, and theoretically there is space in here for lego, but I haven't tried
09:00<Wolf01>Then it does seem that your life is fairly better than mine
09:01<goodger>and yet still depression
09:03<Wolf01>Did you got it diagnosed? I was cured once, so I know what it is
09:05<Wolf01>And I'm actively trying to get rid of it, but now that winter is coming it bites even more
09:07<Wolf01>I found that a constant supply of new things is enough to keep me happy in these times, but I don't have a constant money balance
09:10<@Alberth>sell old stuff ?
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09:10<Wolf01>Eh... I could sell some books
09:11<Wolf01>Lego not for sure :P
09:12<@Alberth>:D
09:12<Wolf01>I still have a lot of sets still MISB (sealed)
09:12<Wolf01>Which I really want to build, but no space to put them
09:12<@Alberth>hmm, taking up space and you can't even play with it
09:14<Wolf01>I need to get rid of at least 6 amazon big boxes filled with lego sealed boxes or built models
09:15<andythenorth>I keep considering selling more Lego
09:15<andythenorth>we sold some City stuff
09:15<andythenorth>I have hoarded rare technic parts also
09:19<andythenorth>should maybe sell those
09:19<Wolf01>I would buy :P
09:20<Wolf01>But 25kg of loose lego is waiting for me at a friend's home, because we decided to purchase some to split up
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09:26<goodger>Wolf01: yes, I have, I see a psychiatrist every month and I'm on four medications
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09:42<Wolf01>Speaking of happier things, how's NRT?? What do we need now?
09:42<Wolf01>I should leave a note to myself to fix editor
09:49<Wolf01>https://ideas.lego.com/projects/158489 andy, this awaits your vote
09:51<andythenorth>I don’t know what’s next on NRT
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10:11<supermop>good morning
10:12<@Alberth>moin
10:15<supermop>bought a monitor last night, still no computer tho
10:15<@Alberth>:D
10:15<@Alberth>at least you have something to look at :)
10:15<supermop>three phones ago i had a phone with mini hdmi out
10:16<supermop>maybe ill dig that up and connect it to the monitor and then pair a bluetooth mouse and keyboard to it
10:16<@Alberth>get the shoe box out!
10:17<@Alberth>would seem a bit silly though, a phone connected to a large monitor
10:22<supermop>esp a phone from 2011
10:25<@Alberth>oh, that's very recent :p
10:26<supermop>it was replaced when i moved to australia because it didn't work very well in 2014...
10:27<@Alberth>ah, fair enough
10:28<supermop>so i don't know if it will quite work as a desktop replacement in late 2016
10:33<@Alberth>a monitor dedicated to the #openttd channel seems like a good idea
10:34<@Alberth>I hope it meets the minimal 28" size requirements
10:39<supermop>haha
10:39<supermop>use monitor and phone as a dedicated read only #openttd appliance
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11:23<supermop>an andy appears
11:36<supermop>andythenorth: opioids for steeltown economy
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12:03<@Alberth>wrong question :p
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12:23<andythenorth>supermop: playing Steeltown? o_O
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12:32<supermop>andythenorth: reading about opioid treatment in rustbelt
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12:47<Wolf01>Quak
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12:55<frosch123>moi
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14:04<andythenorth>ok so http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html#steeltown
14:05<andythenorth>works ok, in a first-time-played test game
14:05<andythenorth>but
14:05<andythenorth>ENSP and SESP are hard to get
14:05<andythenorth>I have one shipyard with low output, and no ENSP at all
14:08<frosch123>is that a good thing?
14:08<andythenorth>I wondered
14:08<andythenorth>it gives an obvious focus
14:08<andythenorth>but the number of industries needing ENSP, and the amount I can produce are quite far apart
14:09<andythenorth>options
14:09<andythenorth>- it’s fine do nothing
14:09<andythenorth>- add forest->lumber->ensp chain
14:09<andythenorth>- add supply yard, accepting building materials -> ensp
14:11<frosch123>could the pipe mill produce ensp?
14:11<andythenorth>it could
14:11<frosch123>water/air/stuff in mines
14:11<andythenorth>plausible
14:12<andythenorth>can’t remember why I removed ‘PIPE’
14:12<andythenorth>maybe it was just one cargo too many
14:13<frosch123>no, it was because building materials already contained pipes
14:13<frosch123>you found pipes on the builders yard or something
14:15<andythenorth>ach why is chrome search so crap :P
14:15<andythenorth>oh pipe messed up the graphviz layouts :)
14:15<andythenorth>it’s an ‘interesting’ reason to remove it as a cargo :D
14:15<frosch123>nah, it was because of building material
14:16<frosch123>you cannot have nickel and base metals in the same economy
14:16<frosch123>because nickel is part of base metals
14:16<andythenorth>yes
14:16<frosch123>do you cannot have pipe and building materials
14:16<frosch123>vehicles draw pipes and stuff when they have building materials loaded
14:16<andythenorth>can have in same economy if there’s a converter industry, but iff
14:17<andythenorth>‘subtypes’ :P
14:17<andythenorth>might be an accident that pipe mill doesn’t have ensp
14:18<andythenorth>logs suggest it was intended
14:21<supermop>make some industries accept bdmt instead of ensp?
14:22<andythenorth>every so often I consider that
14:22<andythenorth>then I reject it
14:22<andythenorth>the ENSP / FMSP thing is now pretty entrenched
14:22<andythenorth>it’s a useful design constraint
14:22<frosch123>yeah, players know what "supplies" means :)
14:22<andythenorth>solid constraints are very valuable
14:22<andythenorth>otherwise choices have no meaning
14:22<supermop>industry needs bdmt to expand?
14:23<andythenorth>might be valid, but it’s a new mechanic
14:23<andythenorth>I don’t hate the idea, but it doesn’t fit FIRS I think
14:23<supermop>just wondering
14:24<supermop>somewhere for all those ibeams and precast concrete to go
14:25<andythenorth>bdmt -> supply yard -> ensp
14:25<supermop>feels like a cheat
14:25<andythenorth>one unfinished steel chain has 12 primary source currently :P
14:26<supermop>whats at the other end?
14:32<andythenorth>so far, some galvanised steel
14:32<andythenorth>and some marine supplies
14:32<andythenorth>it’s definitely not suitable for a simple ‘connect all industries’ game :)
14:33<andythenorth>might play quite well with silicon valley, with the right industries
14:33<supermop>galvanized hmm
14:33<supermop>light poles?
14:33<supermop>catwalks?
14:33<andythenorth>‘building materials’ ;D
14:35<andythenorth>also car bodies
14:36<andythenorth>frosch123: know of any reason station refit order couldn’t offer choice of subtypes? o_O
14:36<andythenorth>other than ‘UI would suck’
14:36<andythenorth>and ‘nobody wanted to do it’
14:36<supermop>i think you need to separate bdmt into every minuscule subtype
14:37<supermop>"you delivered enough floorboards but not enough nails: town is not growing"
14:37<andythenorth>urban economy eh?
14:37<andythenorth>cement, coffee, flowers, furniture
14:37<andythenorth>trainers
14:38<frosch123>andythenorth: because subtypes depend on vehicle types, and there is no consistent way to store that in savegames
14:38<supermop>"you delivered too many nails. the hardware stores went broke paying to store them: town is not growing"
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14:38<andythenorth>frosch123: and so refitting in depot has no need to store anything?
14:39<andythenorth>because it’s not an order
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14:39<supermop>"you delivered air jordans but town wants Yeezeys: town is not growing"
14:39<frosch123>manual refit only affects a single vehicle
14:39<andythenorth>yup ok
14:39*andythenorth has understood
14:39<frosch123>ordered refit affects any vehicles, esp. when autoreplace is involved
14:40<frosch123>you could try it with template based consist replacement
14:42<supermop>"you delivered 100 British racing green cars, only one buyer wanted lime, 99 wanted forest green: town is not growing"
14:42<andythenorth>we have template based consist replacement? o_O
14:42<supermop>patch i think?
14:43<andythenorth>ach, yes, the subtype potentially varies completely by vehicle, I should know that as newgrf author :P
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14:51<supermop>is there a steeltown for testing on dev zone?
14:51<frosch123>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/
14:53<andythenorth>I’ve also been updating IH and RH and CHIPS with cargo support
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14:53<andythenorth>although that’s not essential
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15:07<andythenorth>anyone got any bright ideas for ship capacity?
15:07<andythenorth>it’s hard to get it ‘just right’, unlike trains and RVs
15:10<@Rubidium>why not make capacity refits where the running costs are scaled by the capacity. Then the ships can have the right capacity for many playing styles
15:10<frosch123>capacity could equal 4, 6 and 8 tile trains
15:11<andythenorth>capacity refits are…out
15:11<andythenorth>because they can’t be used with station refit orders :)
15:11<@Rubidium>so one person says... okay 200 tons of X is for a small ship, 2000 for a large ship whereas someone else might say... well 50 tons is a small ship and 200 tons are huge
15:11<frosch123>andythenorth: you can still use station refits
15:11<andythenorth>I have capacity parameter however
15:11<frosch123>just the subtype cannot change
15:12<frosch123>a station refit from coal (medium) to iore (medium) works
15:12<andythenorth>it does yes :)
15:12<frosch123>you just need to make sure that all compatible cargos have the same subtypes (same strings)
15:13<andythenorth>but I only use station refits in my game, and I’m making the grf :P ;)
15:13<frosch123>oh, i remember, for andy station refits means to purchase a vehicle and just send it to the station
15:13<andythenorth>yes
15:14<andythenorth>that’s not scalable across different vehicle types with cargo subtypes
15:15<andythenorth>there was some request for ‘build already refitted’ recently
15:16<frosch123>it exists in patches
15:16<frosch123>but users will complain that the preview capacity is incorrect :)
15:17<frosch123>yet another case for template based consist purchase :p
15:17<andythenorth>ha
15:17<frosch123>not sure whether the template patch also does that
15:17*andythenorth wonders about ships with holds
15:17<andythenorth>and other ideas rejected many times over
15:18<andythenorth>IRL, if a buyer has 3000t of grain, and the easiest charter is a 5000t ship
15:18<andythenorth>they don’t fill every hold full
15:19<andythenorth>ho, % full load would do it :P
15:19<supermop>if its a charter, they would sell the other capacity
15:19<andythenorth>only if there’s a buyer on hand
15:19<andythenorth>small coastal shipping, might not be
15:19<andythenorth>as if IRL matters anyway :)
15:19<supermop>i meant wouldnt
15:19<andythenorth>:)
15:20<supermop>probably not worth waiting to find someone to take the other 2000t for the same route
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15:20<andythenorth>% full load, with a crazy overload option
15:21<supermop>thats sort of the whole point of containerization and palatalization, before the ship just had to do what the customer wanted
15:21<andythenorth>> 100% full load, increased chance of new ‘ship sank’ disaster
15:21<supermop>even if it meant wasting capacity
15:21<andythenorth>'such gameplay’
15:21<supermop>or 'containers fell off'
15:21<andythenorth>‘cargo fell overboard'
15:21<supermop>'legos wash up on english beaches'
15:25<Eddi|zuHause>"the front fell off"?
15:27<frosch123>lego should be bulk cargo
15:31<andythenorth>countable or uncountable?
15:32<frosch123>pourable
15:33<andythenorth>what about an order type restricted to ships, specifying amount of cargo to load :P
15:34<andythenorth>[UI to enter a number]
15:34<andythenorth>and there’s only one size of ship :P
15:34<frosch123>i am wondering how trams should behave when encountering an incompatible tram type
15:34<andythenorth>they get stuck
15:34<frosch123>i think they should just revert, even though tram can usually not revert on full tile end
15:35<andythenorth>they can if you hit ‘turn around’ enough times
15:35<andythenorth>I can never figure out under what conditions that works
15:35<frosch123>hmm, maybe they do
15:35<supermop>andythenorth: click 3 times quickly
15:36<supermop>unless its stuck at a dead end
15:36<frosch123>but there is specific code to decide whether one could build tram track on the next tile for unstucking
15:38<andythenorth>seems over-thought
15:38<andythenorth>there’s no gain to punishing player?
15:38<andythenorth>maybe there is, if they don’t build routes properly
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15:42<supermop>the game should be an exercise in misery
15:42<supermop>the news should randomly pop up saying that your employees dislike you personally
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---Logclosed Fri Dec 02 00:00:07 2016