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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-09

---Logopened Fri Dec 09 00:00:54 2016
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05:21<andythenorth>o/
05:22<crem>\o
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06:04<Wolf01>o/
06:10<__ln__>signore 01
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06:40<@Alberth>o/
06:41<andythenorth>lo Alberth
06:42<Wolf01>o/
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06:43*andythenorth reading nml source to try and figure out the string literal problem
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06:45<andythenorth>I’m hitting L165 here http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/nml/repository/entry/nml/grfstrings.py#L162
06:50<@Alberth>reads to me like it expects a literal like "andy", or a string type string(...)
06:51<andythenorth>yes
06:52<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1180055#p1180055
06:52<andythenorth>chokes on TTD_STR_CARGO_SINGULAR_COAL
06:52<andythenorth>which isn’t a literal?
06:53<@Alberth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1179647#p1179647
06:53<@Alberth>no, a literal is something with " thingies
06:53<@Alberth>string(TTD_STR_CARGO_SINGULAR_COAL) would work I think
06:54<@Alberth>^ I am pretty sure I copied that knowledge from one of your projects :p
06:54<@Alberth>(forum link)
06:56<@Alberth>yep, from fish: grep string fish.nml | grep ,
06:57<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pp60mv3nj
06:58<andythenorth>grf strings work
06:58<andythenorth>but the problem is TTD strings
06:59<@Alberth>they are a number?
06:59<andythenorth>they have constants defined
06:59<andythenorth>and they’re expected to be literals
06:59<@Alberth>string(1234) doesn't do anything useful (with a more useful number probably)
06:59<@Alberth>?
07:00<andythenorth>but can’t use a literal inside string()
07:00<@Alberth>ah
07:01<andythenorth>I am just double-checking, but I expect to get ‘not found’ if I do string(TTD_STRING)
07:01<andythenorth>yeah, not found :)
07:01<andythenorth>interesting problem
07:02<@Alberth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Default_TTD_strings <-- says not to use string()
07:02<@Alberth>I assume it's correct there :)
07:04<andythenorth>it’s correct :)
07:04<andythenorth>but that means TTD strings can’t be used as substrings
07:04<andythenorth>nvm
07:05<andythenorth>if I don’t use the default TTD cargo strings (where they exist), translators will have to duplicate existing translations
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07:06<andythenorth>I already provide them in English for the docs, which can’t access TTD strings, so it’s no extra work for me
07:06<andythenorth>but for translators, might be annoying
07:10<@Alberth>what happens if you use the number inside the 'string()' ?
07:11<@Alberth>also, do you use it as parameter, or as main string?
07:12<@Alberth>there is no regression test either, so it may have been tested last a looong time ago, if at all
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07:26<argoneus>good morning train friends
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07:30<andythenorth>Alberth: using the string number fails as ‘First parameter of string() must be an identifier'
07:30<andythenorth>which is expected I think :)
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07:36<@Alberth>yeah, and parameter?
07:37<@Alberth>string(STR_JUST_STRING, 1234) where STR_JUST_STRING : {STRING}
07:39*andythenorth tests
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07:39<@Alberth>this would suggest you can just use the constant name instead of string(...)
07:39<andythenorth>that was my initial expectation
07:40<@Alberth>1234 can be a TTD_STR_... literal, I would expect
07:40<andythenorth>the number doesn’t work as a parameter
07:41<@Alberth>:(
07:41<andythenorth>Expected a (literal) string
07:41*andythenorth checks the generated nml
07:41<andythenorth>it’s a very not-simple test case :(
07:41<@Alberth>it starts to sound like a bug, imho
07:42<andythenorth>in the parser?
07:42*andythenorth would suspect more likely in FIRS, right now :P
07:42<andythenorth>I need to make a simple test case
07:42<@Alberth>no, you'd get a "parse error" then :)
07:43<@Alberth>nml has a 'regression' directory with tests
07:43<andythenorth>yes
07:44<@Alberth>no TTD_ text in there
07:46<andythenorth>so I made a simpler test case which fails also
07:46<andythenorth>string(STR_EXTRA_TEXT_SECONDARY, TTD_STR_CARGO_SINGULAR_COAL, string(STR_EXTRA_ALUMINUM_PLANT))
07:47<andythenorth>not a literal
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>i would expect you can only use TTD_STR_* by pushing it to the text stack
07:47<Eddi|zuHause>not using the string(..., ...) method
07:47<andythenorth>that is plausible, and might give a solution
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09:27<supermop>yo
09:30<crem>yo++
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10:20<andythenorth>ach now I have to look up text stack syntax for nml :P
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10:52<Wolf01>:o today is friday
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11:03<@Alberth>yep
11:23<Wolf01>Mid week holidays disturb me a lot
11:25<@Alberth>lack of mid-week holidays is also disturibing, every now and then :)
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27684 trunk/src/lang/italian.txt (2016-12-09 19:45:36 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian: 1 change by lorenzodv
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14:14<andythenorth>o/
14:14<supermop>yo
14:16<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pym4p67ue?/pym4p67ue <- andythenorth: can you try that one?
14:18*andythenorth patches nml
14:18<supermop>i still haven't picked a malware appliance yet
14:19<frosch123>supermop: do you need a list of boat owners?
14:20<supermop>my dad is lobbying for me to get a surface book, but 2700USD and still only 16gb ram is tough for my budget
14:20<andythenorth>supermop: ‘many options, decide late’ is usually a good strategy
14:20<andythenorth>or you just buy a mac, like me, because eh, choice is boring
14:20<supermop>frosch123: sure why not
14:20<supermop>andythenorth: that what the wife does
14:20<andythenorth>it’s a much simpler form of consumerism
14:20<andythenorth>particularly for phones, about which I have zero interest
14:20<andythenorth>so I just buy ‘phone’ which = cheapest iphone with 32GB
14:21<supermop>getting anything set up with autocad etc by week before christmas would be nice though, allowing me to work from 'home' in the week before new years
14:21<supermop>andythenorth: pixel with 128 is nice
14:21<supermop>where 'home' is possibly asia
14:22*andythenorth prefers no research, no thinking, no angst about ‘what kind of person am I?’ or ‘what’s the most performance per £?’ :P
14:24<supermop>over the past year ive used a home computer, when mine was still working, for 1)playing go, 2) reading tt-forums, 3) designing a few pieces of junk to 3d print
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14:25<supermop>so really dont need much of a beast
14:29<supermop>maybe ill just spend computer budget on gifts for wife
14:29<supermop>and hope that she then buys me a computer
14:29<andythenorth>buy wife new mac, use wife’s old mac
14:29<andythenorth>install windows if you need it
14:32<andythenorth>ach
14:32<andythenorth>how do I build nmlc binary? o_O
14:32<andythenorth>I thought it was just ‘make'
14:32<frosch123>binary?
14:33<andythenorth>I need an nmlc I can install in python
14:33<frosch123>i thought you would just run /home/andy/nml/nmlc firs.nml
14:34<andythenorth>yes I should do that
14:34<andythenorth>but I still need to build that nmlc?
14:35*andythenorth has serious Friday brain
14:35<frosch123>no :) it's python
14:35<frosch123>or did you move to windows?
14:35<andythenorth>oh that nmlc is just an entry point
14:35<andythenorth>I should have opened it and looked :P
14:37<andythenorth>I am being surrounded by brio train track construction right now
14:38<frosch123>someone likes trains?
14:39<andythenorth>two someones
14:41<andythenorth>I have to dig some more
14:41<andythenorth>nmlc ERROR: "../lang/english.lng", line 5: Undefined command "TITLE"
14:41<andythenorth>firs nml can’t be built without all the args
14:41<andythenorth>which is why I was trying to install it :)
14:42<andythenorth>(it=nmlc in my python bin dir)
14:42*andythenorth will figure it out
14:42<supermop>NewBrioTypes
14:43<andythenorth>ach I need to give the path to custom_tags.txt
14:44<andythenorth>ok, building now
14:46<andythenorth>frosch123: https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pybnluwuo
14:46*andythenorth must parent for a bit :)
14:50<frosch123>hmm, is the string() stuff even meant for parameters?
14:51<frosch123>it looks more like static concatenation of string
14:52<frosch123>looking at extra_text_primary.pynml: the textstack stuff is done via STORE_TEMP, not via string
15:04<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/railtiledesc.png https://paste.openttdcoop.org/plzzu7ujn?/plzzu7ujn <- listing the railtype explicitly in the tile info window
15:05<frosch123>the previous construction from strings was only done for plain rail tiles, likely was weird for translations, and does not work for road/tram types :)
15:09<frosch123>trashing 22 translations per language :)
15:10<frosch123>hmm, does trashing translations actually work in eints?
15:10<frosch123>i think it just keeps them as invalid
15:57<andythenorth>it’s not a great user story for translators afaik
15:57<andythenorth>the FIRS change I want to make will improve translations for the long term
15:57<andythenorth>but in the short term, translations will be very broken, until translators fix them
15:58<andythenorth>I can do this with text stack if I need to
15:58<andythenorth>it’s just usually easier to start by concatenating strings, especially because they’re static
16:00<@Alberth>there is a minimum number of old translations that eints keeps, and a time out, iirc
16:00<frosch123>i wonder how to trick eints
16:00<frosch123>i could commit the script-fixed translations first
16:00<frosch123>and then commit the baselanguage change
16:01<frosch123>maybe that results in valid but outdated strings, so people could still look at them
16:01<@Alberth>reduce the numbers, restart, eints throws stuff in the bin, stop eints, revert numbers, start eints again
16:01<@Alberth>no idea what values you use, maybe it's ok already :)
16:02<@Alberth>oh, base strings change of course, it trashes deleted base strings afaik, no way to ever see them again
16:03<@Alberth>ie, it's all attached to the string name
16:04<@Alberth>upload language should know, I guess
16:07<andythenorth>hmm
16:07<andythenorth>dunno whether to try switching to text stack
16:07<andythenorth>or just put the cargo strings I need in the lang file
16:08<frosch123>how many strings does firs need?
16:08<frosch123>in the compiled output
16:10<andythenorth>total string count? Or just for this one use case?
16:11<frosch123>hmm, firs does not compile
16:11<andythenorth>error? o_O
16:12<@Alberth>it seems, after modifying the base language, it walks through all translations, and deletes all string names that are no longer available (pages/upload_language.py, lines 174
16:12<frosch123>i guess you already pushed stuff :)
16:13<frosch123> nmlc info: D0xx strings: 84/1024 <- ok, looks like there is no problem currently
16:13<frosch123>i was worried that composing all the combinations would result in many strings
16:13<andythenorth>DCxx strings: 236/256
16:13<andythenorth>but that’s...ok?
16:13<frosch123>those are cargo names :)
16:14<andythenorth>hmm
16:14<andythenorth>that’s….possibly a problem soon
16:14<frosch123>maybe also industry names, not sure
16:14<andythenorth>especially if I duplicate the OpenTTD default strings
16:14<andythenorth>I use 19 default cargo names
16:15<andythenorth>also I pushed ‘not broken compile’ :|
16:15<frosch123>Alberth: are you talking to me or to andy?
16:15<frosch123>we kind of had two string discussions :)
16:15<andythenorth>me :)
16:18<andythenorth>I don’t understand the result of using nml ‘string(ID, substring)’ w.r.t string count
16:18<andythenorth>does each resulting string use up a string ID?
16:18<frosch123>if you use STR_A and STR_B then string(STR_A, STR_B) adds a third string
16:19<andythenorth>ach
16:19<frosch123>it does not actually use the textstack, it statically composes a new one
16:19<andythenorth>I was hoping there were magic bytes for ‘insert another string’
16:19<andythenorth>I might switch to the text stack for this
16:19<andythenorth>does the text stack have any performance costs?
16:19<frosch123>none that you can measure
16:20<frosch123>rendering the actual font will always take longer
16:20<andythenorth>it will increase compile time marginally, there will be a lot more nml switches
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16:26<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27685 /trunk/src/lang (56 files in 2 dirs) (2016-12-09 22:26:37 +0100 )
16:26<@DorpsGek>-Change: Preemptively invalidate translation changes of next commit for eints.
16:27<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27686 /trunk/src (7 files in 2 dirs) (2016-12-09 22:27:22 +0100 )
16:27<@DorpsGek>-Change: List railtype of rail tiles explicitly in the tile info window.
16:27<frosch123>let's see whether that tricked eints
16:28<frosch123>yay, looks good
16:28<frosch123>i may get scolded by the farm for one commit, but the eints result is fine :p
16:29<@Alberth>:)
16:30<@Alberth>nn
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16:35*andythenorth must find nml text stack docs
16:36<frosch123>pretty sure there are none :)
16:37<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Language_files#String_parameters <- possibly trhat one
16:38<andythenorth>so just store temp, and {STRING} (or with formatting)
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16:39<andythenorth>oh and I might have to stuff the dwords :P
16:39<andythenorth>just like old times
16:57<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/roadtiledesc.png <- so many lines :p
16:59<Wolf01>+1
17:01<frosch123>road vehicle property 05 ?
17:01<frosch123>would be the same number of for trains
17:03<frosch123>did someone already check whether road compatibility works the same as for railtypes?
17:03<frosch123>is railtype compatibility transitive?
17:04<frosch123>so, if off-road vehicles could run on town roads, and normal vehicles could run on highway, would that imply that off-road vehicles could run on highways?
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17:08<@Rubidium>but isn't normal road like the universal railtype?
17:08<frosch123>venice road is pretty much incompatible to everything
17:09<frosch123>anyway, looks like railtype poweredness is not transitive, so the same applies to roads
17:09<andythenorth>type compatibility is always nuts :D
17:10<andythenorth>the only way I could make sense of it in a grf was…
17:10<andythenorth>…types aren’t compatible, except for el-[type]
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17:13<Wolf01>Anything that can run on normal road could also run on any other road-like type, the inverse is not entirely true
17:13<Wolf01>A truck should be able to run on dirt road too
17:14<Wolf01>The problem might be if you define a tram type to be like a road
17:14<frosch123>there was a story about some garbage truck driver, who get stuck in the middle of some forest
17:15<frosch123>apparently he had an rendezvous during working hours in his "company car" and took a detour :)
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17:27<Eddi|zuHause>anyone ever wonder why germans sleep "out" and english sleep "in"?
17:27<Wolf01>?
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>the name for when you start your day late
17:28<Wolf01>I prefer oversleep
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>that's when you didn't intend to...
17:29<Wolf01>Then lazy
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause>that's... always :p
17:30<Wolf01>I had the habit to really wake up only after drinking the coffee at work, at least 1 hour after starting from home
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>that's probably the opposite of "sleeping in"
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17:51<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, do you think urban games will release another patch for TF or they will just make TF2 with the fixes?
17:51<goodger>they already did that
17:51<Eddi|zuHause>i'm sure there will be fixes for about a year after release
17:52<Eddi|zuHause>and then they're probably working on the next thing
17:53<Wolf01>The last patch was really needed, but I still have those annoying performance drop for no reason at all :(
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>it's a bit early to lose hope, i think...
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17:54<Eddi|zuHause>these types of fixes take some time
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20:56<Wolf01>'night
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 10 00:00:05 2016