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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-10

---Logopened Sat Dec 10 00:00:05 2016
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03:49<@Rubidium>Eddi|zuHause: the same reason Americans park on the drive way and drive on the park way?
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05:38<@Alberth>Saturday today!
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07:16<andythenorth>quiet eh?
07:17<@Rubidium>that's to balance with the noisiness of your children ;)
07:18<andythenorth>there are 4 kids here right now
07:18<andythenorth>they are playing mario
07:18<andythenorth>it’s loud
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>they multiply?
07:18<andythenorth>they have friends :P
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>how dare they.
07:25<andythenorth>can I crash ottd?
07:25<andythenorth>let’s see
07:31<andythenorth>so eh, how many strings can I put on the text stack?
07:31<@Alberth>less than infinite?
07:31<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... more than 4
07:31<@Alberth>4 will likely work
07:31<andythenorth>nml has them in 256-259
07:32<andythenorth>which I count as 4
07:32<@Alberth>gotta try them all
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>you can put 2 strings per register
07:32<Eddi|zuHause>since they are word sized
07:32<andythenorth>yes I can
07:32<andythenorth>and also that’s why my code doesn’t work right now
07:33<andythenorth>so what do I do to stuff them?
07:33<andythenorth>switch (FEAT_INDUSTRIES, SELF, ${}_extra_text_non_debug_2, [STORE_TEMP(string(STR_TEST_2) | STORE_TEMP(string(STR_TEST_2) << 16, 256)]) {
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>something along the lines of STORE_TEMP(STR_2 | (STR_1 << 16))
07:34<andythenorth>yes the one I posted had clown shoes on
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>err switch 1 and 2
07:34<Eddi|zuHause>i think
07:35<andythenorth>I’ll test
07:35<Eddi|zuHause>i have some parameter magic buried in CETS somewhere
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07:36<Eddi|zuHause>if you can decipher that...
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07:59<andythenorth>I should pull NRT updates eh?
08:00<frosch123>next is patching nml to add roadvehicle property 05
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08:07<Wolf01>About the editor, we will let designers lay every know roadtype then?
08:09<frosch123>how does it work for industries?
08:10<frosch123>can you plant oilrigs in 1920?
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08:13<Wolf01>At least it is in the list
08:25<andythenorth>I am putting strings on the stack
08:25<andythenorth>and those strings need parameters from the stack
08:25<andythenorth>this is getting hard to parse in my head :)
08:26<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27687 /trunk/src (rail.h rail_cmd.cpp) (2016-12-10 14:26:29 +0100 )
08:26<@DorpsGek>-Fix: RailtypeInfo::alternate_labels leaked when reloading NewGRF. (adf88)
08:28<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27688 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2016-12-10 14:28:47 +0100 )
08:28<@DorpsGek>-Fix-ish: Initialise new railtypes with the original railtype data, though strictly NewGRF could only have modified 'label' and 'alternate_labels' at the time AllocateRailType is called, which are reset anyway.
08:31<Wolf01>Let's see how badly I can crash OTTD this time
08:32<Wolf01>Mmmh, the engine pool doesn't like the editor
08:32<Wolf01>Not so bad, I just make another function without the company shit
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08:39<Wolf01>Ok, I got a geyed out dropdown and it opens the industries window when released :P
08:40<Wolf01>For the greyed part was easy, the problem now is why the items open strange windows
08:44<Wolf01>Oh, shared clicked procs list, bad
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09:11<andythenorth>sometimes I wonder
09:11<andythenorth>is there a better way than ‘start coding at the beginning’
09:12<frosch123>people argue whether to do top-down or bottom-up or alternating between them :)
09:15<andythenorth>I am always curious how to start with the design, without writing some code
09:15<andythenorth>but eh
09:17<@Alberth>think big blocks of functionality, and how to exchange data
09:17<@Alberth>or rather what kind of data each has, and what other blocks need access in what way to it
09:18<andythenorth>that is predicated on knowing what the functionality is :)
09:18<andythenorth>there’s always this assumption that the design can be known a priori
09:18<@Alberth>yep, an idea of suggested functionality for each block helps a lot :)
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09:19<@Alberth>I think nobody knows exactly how one reaches a design
09:19<@Alberth>so they abstract all the details away :)
09:20<@Alberth>I don't even know how I do it, let alone how you should do it in general
09:20<@Alberth>likely each person does things a little different
09:21<@Alberth>not a problem, as there are loads of good solutions, it doesn't matter much which good one you precisely pick
09:21<@Alberth>as long as you avoid bad ones, for your situation
09:23<@Alberth>in my experience, the problem with a design without coding it at least roughly, is that it's too easy to forget some crucial piece of data
09:24<@Alberth>which sometimes completely invalidates your design
09:25<andythenorth>common findings I have from writing spike code...
09:25<andythenorth>(1) not possible within spec (mostly a newgrf thing, not other places)
09:25<andythenorth>(2) idea sucks
09:25<andythenorth>(3) there’s a simpler way and most of the idea can be deleted
09:25<andythenorth>(4) ‘this will take much longer than hoped’
09:25<@Alberth>(3) is normal :)
09:26<@Alberth>I also always start at the wrong end of the problem :p
09:27<@Alberth>you can avoid writing code by doing much high level thinking what you need everywhere, but it seems more complicated than just writing rough pseudo code
09:28<@Alberth>or experimental code in python
09:28<@Alberth>start at the core, or the unknown parts, if that fails, no point in going further
09:34<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27689 /trunk/src (3 files) (2016-12-10 15:33:58 +0100 )
09:34<@DorpsGek>-Fix: MSVC warnings.
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09:48<Wolf01>I really need a VCS which allows me to work backwards
09:48<frosch123>sounds good, i would just stop at the star then :)
09:48<Wolf01>I pushed the changes for the scenario editor
09:49<Wolf01>It still open the standard road toolbar for every item on the dropdown
09:50<Wolf01>But when you buid it it is the right type
09:51<Wolf01>I need to change the widget definitions for the editor, because those weren't shared
09:52<Wolf01>(which is strange because it is the same toolbar)
09:57<Wolf01>Could be that RoadTypeInfo is not correctly set up in editor?
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09:58<Wolf01>The SetupRoadToolbar() is executed the same way of the normal game
10:03<frosch123>Wolf01: are you on windows?
10:04<frosch123>can you still build road and rail?
10:04<frosch123>the win compile farm fails with the regression
10:04<Wolf01>Seem so, I just built it
10:04<frosch123>i already emrged the change to rnt
10:04<Wolf01>Yes I got it
10:06<andythenorth>how do I use ‘CARGO_SHORT'
10:06<frosch123>you give two parameters
10:06<frosch123>amount and cargo type
10:06<frosch123>or cargo type and amount
10:06<frosch123>i never know the order
10:06<andythenorth>let’s see
10:10<Wolf01><Wolf01> I really need a VCS which allows me to work backwards <- as always
10:11<andythenorth>backwards :)
10:12<andythenorth>ach slow compile is slow
10:12<andythenorth>fast FIRS is now slow FIRS, because I added more economies
10:13<Wolf01>Eh, I look on what I need to work, seems easy, I start working on it, 90%... I need to change something else, save changes, revert changes, change the other thing, compile and test, do something stupid like try to add the saved changes, test, remove added changes... commit
10:14<Wolf01>And usually I miss the last CTRL+Z
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10:19<Wolf01>The stupid is always in ambush inside my head
10:25<+michi_cc>Wolf01: git commit -i allows you to stage changes line by line, best way IMHO to split the complete changes into sensible commits (the various GUI tools all provide an equivalent function).
10:25<andythenorth>is there a very abbreviated cargo format (’t’ instead of ‘tonnes’)?
10:26<+michi_cc>Wolf01: Or rather git add -i, we aren't at commiting yet :)
10:26<frosch123>andythenorth: CARGO_TINY
10:26<frosch123>or something like that
10:27<Wolf01>Nah, the problem is that I need to reorder my actions edit->test->commit->more edit->more test->commit instead of edit->test->more edit->test->revert more edit->commit
10:27<andythenorth>docs imply that doesn’t show units :)
10:27*andythenorth tries it
10:30<andythenorth>no units :)
10:32<andythenorth>industry window text will just get longer :P
10:39<andythenorth>ach cargo names are capitalised :P
10:39<andythenorth>this time-saving automation idea is one of my worst ever :|
10:41<andythenorth>there’s no formatter to lower-case all chars?
10:42<@Rubidium>andythenorth: but that fails for some language where words need to be capitalised
10:42<@Rubidium>you could, however, use cases
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10:46<andythenorth>if this works, it possibly saves a lot of translator effort
10:46<andythenorth>but it saves me nothing :D
10:46<andythenorth>and the formatting is wasteful
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10:48<andythenorth>ach I could write my own formatters
10:49<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27690 trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp (2016-12-10 16:49:25 +0100 )
10:49<@DorpsGek>-Fix: Old compilers do not zero-initialise POD members when explicitly calling implicitly created default constructors.
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11:11<frosch>he, same second :p
11:12<goodger>automatic tabulating machines are noted for their speed and efficiency
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11:38<andythenorth>ach I could process the lang files
11:38<andythenorth>duplicating all the cargo names, and calling .lower() on them
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11:41<andythenorth>nah, there must be a better way
11:47<andythenorth>CARGO_LONG is better
11:47<andythenorth>and one less word needed
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11:59*Wolf01 is booored
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12:12<@Alberth>play a game?
12:16<Wolf01>Boring too :P
12:30<Wolf01>I need to fix all the cargo amount and costs of train fever, it's everything stupid as fuck... a boeing 757 for 55 passengers, the concorde 24, a ferry ship for 12
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27691 trunk/src/lang/italian.txt (2016-12-10 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>italian: 9 changes by lorenzodv
13:46<andythenorth>so I might need a way to deprecate a lot of translation strings in FIRS
13:46<andythenorth>and I’d prefer not to remove them manually :P
13:47<@Alberth>base language?
13:47<andythenorth>I could (a) write a script to rename them, or delete them from lang files
13:47<andythenorth>(b) something else
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13:48<@Alberth>find strings in the source?
13:50<andythenorth>specifically strings like
13:51<andythenorth>STR_EXTRA_ALUMINUM_PLANT will no longer need the ‘2t voor iedere 8.000l’ stuff
13:51<andythenorth>and it needs removing, otherwise it will appear broken in game (duplicated info)
13:51<andythenorth>just delete them from the lang files?
13:51<@Alberth>translations are done by Eints
13:52<@Alberth>it follows the base language
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13:52<@Alberth>so no point in doing that manually, although the devzone machine may like you less afterwards :p
13:53<@Alberth>but you have a diff in the base language?
13:53<andythenorth>I am confused about what the proposal is :D
13:53<andythenorth>I don’t have the base lang diff yet, no
13:53<@Alberth>I am confused what your problem is :)
13:53<andythenorth>me too
13:54<andythenorth>so STR_EXTRA_MACHINE_SHOP
13:54<@Alberth>I'd suggest concentrate on base language only, for now
13:54<+glx>I guess eints auto removes strings
13:54<andythenorth>is currently :{BLACK}Builds and services machinery.{}{}Cargo production:{} 8 crates per 8,000l petroleum fuels delivered{} 8 crates per 8t metal delivered
13:54<andythenorth>it will become: :{BLACK}Builds and services machinery.
13:55<andythenorth>the ‘Cargo production’ information is generated automatically
13:55<+glx>translation will be marked outdated
13:55<andythenorth>this means that my choices are (1) delete some translation information (2) ship broken FIRS
13:55<andythenorth>which is worse?
13:56<+glx>but you can also remove the extra text yourself
13:56<andythenorth>ha ha ha ha ha
13:56<andythenorth>no :)
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13:56<andythenorth>there are 38 languages
13:56<andythenorth>and 58 strings
13:57<@Alberth>ah, you want all languages changed, and not just base language
13:57<@Alberth>not sure if that's possible
13:57<+glx>then only touch base language and let translators do their work
13:57<andythenorth>then FIRS is broken
13:57<@Alberth>I wouldn't know what text the first part is for all but a few languages
13:57<frosch>i added the necessary stuff to give roadvehicles a roadtype to nml and ottd. anyone fancy to extend the testgrf with roadtypes of different compatibility, and also some roadvehicles with different type? :)
13:57<+glx>or remove strings from translations
13:57<andythenorth>best thing I think is to delete all those strings, it’s a trivial script
13:58<andythenorth>but that pisses off translators?
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13:58<andythenorth>it deletes their work with no way to get it back?
13:58<@Alberth>you have to consider what happens if the translation never gets updated
13:59<frosch>andythenorth: if you fix the baselanguage, eints will fix the rest
13:59<andythenorth>fix how? ;)
13:59<frosch>eints removes translations which do not exist in the baselanguage
13:59<@Alberth>frosch: he wants to rescue some parts of the old strings for all languages
13:59<andythenorth>yeah, they’ll still exist, I’ve just edited the contents
13:59<@Alberth>which is complicated to say the least
13:59<andythenorth>also I will happily do the NRT grf, I just need to finish a bit more of this first :)
13:59<frosch>well, then they will show as outdated
14:00<frosch>will they be much wrong?
14:00<@Alberth>:{BLACK}Builds and services machinery.{}{}Cargo production:{} 8 crates per 8,000l petroleum fuels delivered{} 8 crates per 8t metal delivered{}{}Cargo production:{} 8 crates per 8,000l petroleum fuels delivered{} 8 crates per 8t metal delivered
14:00<@Alberth>that's what you'd get
14:00<@Alberth>the cargo info twice
14:01<frosch> <- yesterday i ported some ottd translations with that
14:01<@Alberth>what if you make new strings, and replace the old texts with "obsolete?" and not use them in the grf, but keep them in the language file?
14:02<frosch>Alberth: then i would try to cut the translations after the n-th {}
14:02<andythenorth>Alberth: I wondered about new strings
14:02<frosch>translators will still see the old translation in the eints history
14:02<@Alberth>well, for some languages that would work
14:02<andythenorth>and the old ones are just unused
14:02<andythenorth>and I blank the contents for base lang
14:02<frosch>if you commit the translation changes before the baselang changes, then the translatiosn will still show up as "outdated" for validation
14:02<frosch>i did just that yesterday in ottd
14:03<@Alberth>^ that advantage of that andy, is I can copy/paste the relevant bit from the outdated version
14:03<@Alberth>which beats typing it again
14:04<@Alberth>hmm, even without changing the translation
14:05<andythenorth>I think that’s the nicest solution
14:05<@Alberth>after a few weeks you could remove translation texts that still have the {}{} things
14:05<@Alberth>so they fall back to base language
14:08<andythenorth>ach this won’t work anyway
14:09<andythenorth>I’m up to register 261 already, and I have one more cargo to display
14:11<frosch>spreadsheets :)
14:11<andythenorth>? :P
14:16<andythenorth>5 dwords is apparently not enough for this
14:17<frosch>gamescripts complainted that 20 were not enough :p
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14:19<andythenorth>I wonder if I can do it differently, with more duplication, and fewer reused substrings
14:19<andythenorth>should only need 10 items on the stack
14:19<andythenorth>that should fit
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14:23<andythenorth> is rendering N/A or -ve values for CARGO_LONG
14:23<andythenorth>I shouldn’t be storing the cargo labels like that?
14:25<frosch>cargolabels are fine
14:25<frosch>did you miscount the bits maybe?
14:25<@Alberth>IL) | GOOD << 16 <-- that looks wrong, add parentheses (GOOD << 16) ?
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14:26<andythenorth>I took it from nml docs :)
14:26<@Alberth>ah, ok, maybe I am wrong :)
14:26<andythenorth>but those have a typo in already
14:26<andythenorth>missing ]
14:28<@Alberth>adding parentheses around shift operations wouldn't do harm
14:28<andythenorth>no, but nor does it fix it :)
14:28*andythenorth just tried
14:28<@Alberth>ok, thanks
14:28<frosch> <- well, code is there, you can always add printf or something
14:29<andythenorth>it doesn’t only work with default cargos?
14:29*andythenorth assumes not, but it appeared to work for coal
14:29<andythenorth>and not cargos I added
14:29<frosch>there is a GetCargoTranslation in the code
14:30<frosch>it may not work, but at least it is intended to work :)
14:32<andythenorth>coal works, FIRS cargos don’t
14:32<andythenorth>STR_CARGO_UNIT_STONE :{WEIGHT} of stone
14:34<andythenorth>I’ve pushed all this if anyone wants to try :P
14:34<andythenorth>make clean, then make install TEST_INDUSTRY=lime_kiln
14:34<andythenorth>is a quick compile
14:44<frosch>what would be the expeted output?
14:47<frosch> <- looks like that is passed
14:49<frosch>should the 53000 be a 8 ?
15:25<frosch>found the issue
15:25<frosch>it's the popular "pass parameters via global variables, and then break everything via recursions" issue
15:25<andythenorth>the 53000 should be an 8 :)
15:28<frosch> <- if you need a temporary fix for your testing
15:28<frosch>but i will look again tomorrow for a proper fix
15:29<andythenorth>thanks :)
15:30<andythenorth>I have other things I could do right now
15:30<andythenorth>like….NRT vehicles
15:30<frosch>make sure to both pull nrt-ottd and nrt-nml :)
15:31<frosch>roadvehicles now have a road_type / tram_type property to give them a road/tram label
15:31<frosch>it is loaded by ottd, but has not yet any gameplay effect
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16:22<andythenorth>I need 13 bytes on the text stack
16:23<andythenorth>I’m allowed 12 :(
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16:25<andythenorth>actually I need 14
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16:34<andythenorth>26 bytes
16:34*andythenorth can’t count
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16:35<andythenorth>but I use 14 words
16:35<andythenorth>maybe I could stuff them more efficiently, dunno
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16:41<andythenorth>some of the values are in the range 1-8
16:41<andythenorth>hardly needs a dword for that
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18:50<Wolf01>I'm LMAO, and I always thought we had one of the worst services
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>there's always some place that's worse...
18:56<Eddi|zuHause>like... tansania... where "the train is late" means "if the train doesn't come today, it'll probably come tomorrow"
18:57<Wolf01>Don't worry, we like to copy USA, Trenitalia is running very very fast towards Amtrak's problems
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19:00<Eddi|zuHause>well, a friend of mine once told me how they were in the military and were moving stuff by train, but they had such low priority, that they practically spent the whole day on some side track in the station, until there was a free space on the line
19:00<Eddi|zuHause>so for a train journey that should take like 2 hours, they spent 2 days
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>i think that was in pre-unification east germany, so the network was probably a lot more densely used than now
19:02<Eddi|zuHause>since a lot higher fraction of transport was done by train
19:03<Eddi|zuHause>both passenger and freight
19:03<Wolf01>Now I hardly notice freight trains, ages ago there were a lot
19:04<Eddi|zuHause>that's because of the quiet brakes :p
19:06<Wolf01>Also no more gaps on rails :P
19:06<Wolf01>(until they cut the rails to raise the bridge during floods)
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20:50<sim-al2>Aren't they finally moving away from cast-iron brake blocks too?
20:51<sim-al2>The US did beginning in the 60's, but they are still used in Europe
20:52<sim-al2>Cast-iron gives good performance, but causes some irregularity in the wheel tread to develop, which creates a lot of noise
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20:58<Ethereal_Whisper>I just built a huge two-sided station :D
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21:05<Eddi|zuHause>there's still a little resistance to refitting the wagons with the silent brakes, but i'm pretty sure in 10-ish years nobody is going to remember how bad the old brakes were
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21:06<Eddi|zuHause>i think the current political approach is to raise the cost for reserving the track if you don't have the silent brakes
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21:06<Eddi|zuHause>in the hope the economy is sorting itself out over time
21:07<Eddi|zuHause>approaches might vary across different european countries
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 11 00:00:06 2016