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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-11

---Logopened Sun Dec 11 00:00:06 2016
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03:01<andythenorth>o/
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04:41<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8229/generated_production_ratios_3.png
04:42<andythenorth>where 2 cargos are produced, the text is misleading
04:42<andythenorth>it always has been, but now it seems worse eh?
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04:42<andythenorth>it’s ‘3,000l and 3t produced per…delivered’
04:43<andythenorth>but that is clunky, and there aren’t enough text stack registers to implement it anyway
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04:46<andythenorth>‘6 units output per 8t nuts delivered’ also seems ugly
04:52<andythenorth>‘8t nuts produces 3,000l edible oil and 3t food’
04:52<andythenorth>?
04:52<andythenorth>can’t be implemented, but is it better?
04:54<@Alberth>/me reads
04:55<@Alberth>your two cargo productions are confusing with different source amounts
04:57<andythenorth>+1
04:58<@Alberth>oh, right, for each output you specify the effect for each input
04:58<andythenorth>yes
04:58<andythenorth>the mechanic is good, the explanation is bad
04:58<@Alberth>sounds a bit bulky indeed :)
04:59<@Alberth>what exactly fails in the "8t nuts produces 3,000l edible oil and 3t food" idea ?
04:59<@Alberth>ie what is too much in that sentence?
04:59<andythenorth>it’s ok to read
05:00<andythenorth>especially because I am adding some industries where output is not split 1:1
05:00<andythenorth>so “8t iron ore produces 6t iron and 2t slag"
05:00<andythenorth>is useful
05:00<@Alberth>yes
05:00<andythenorth>but I can’t implement this using substrings or text stack
05:00<andythenorth>text stack doesn’t have enough registers
05:01<@Alberth>that needs 6 registers, and you have less than 6?
05:01<andythenorth>for 3 input cargos, it needs 9 registers
05:01<andythenorth>I have 6
05:02<andythenorth>and I can’t think of any tricks like packing more bytes into the words
05:03*andythenorth checks the count is correct
05:03<@Alberth>ie you need more sentences
05:04<andythenorth>why am I using all of a register to store 4 bytes?
05:04<andythenorth>seems wrong
05:04<andythenorth>also why does it work :P
05:04<andythenorth>it shouldn’t
05:04<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Language_files#cite_note-cargoamount-1
05:04<andythenorth>says it needs 4 bytes?
05:05<@Alberth>not sure how you get 9 registers
05:05<andythenorth>oh 4 bytes is a dword, nvm
05:05*andythenorth keeps conflating nibbles and bytes
05:06<andythenorth>9? There are 3 cargos per line, 3 lines in the maximum case
05:06<andythenorth>each cargo uses a register
05:08<@Alberth>think in bits :)
05:08<andythenorth>I could compose all the ‘8t of coal’ stuff in the compile
05:09<andythenorth>but that would increase the number of translations
05:09<andythenorth>would need a lower case version of every cargo, and all the units
05:09<@Alberth>yeah, and make translations more complicated
05:09<andythenorth>and it wouldn’t respond to player unit settings
05:09<andythenorth>unless I provided all those too
05:11<@Alberth>what if you split it in two parts, "factory takes Xt of Y, Zl of Q, or P sacks of V into production" and "it produces At of N, and Bl of M"
05:13<andythenorth>maybe
05:13*andythenorth tries writing it out
05:14<@Alberth>unless the output amounts different between different input cargoes :p
05:14<@Alberth>*differ
05:15<andythenorth>they do
05:15<@Alberth>hmm, complicated
05:15<@Alberth>so drop the precise specification?
05:17<@Alberth>tbh I never looked at it, although until now there wasn't much need either, as any input had the same effect
05:18<andythenorth>wonder if there’s some other way to express it
05:18<@Alberth>hmm, not entirely true, I did look at what input cargo was the best
05:18<andythenorth>I’ve often wondered if the industry could show what the current rate is
05:19<andythenorth>i.e. do you have 1, 2 or 3 of the needed inputs in last 3 months
05:19<@Alberth>ECS outputs a lot of statistics
05:19<andythenorth>too much
05:19<andythenorth>just as numbers iirc
05:19<@Alberth>yeah, and no explanation what the numbers mean :)
05:19<andythenorth>because the text stack doesn’t have enough registers for george I guess
05:20<@Alberth>is the number of input cargo the relevant property?
05:20<andythenorth>no
05:20<andythenorth>it’s always ‘per 8t'
05:20<andythenorth>or 8 units
05:20<@Alberth>or the amount of "main" input cargo
05:21<andythenorth>1. ‘deliver coal, iron ore or limestone’
05:21<@Alberth>I like the idea of "number of used furnaces" in ECS
05:21<andythenorth>2. ‘deliver coal or limestone for a production boost’
05:21<andythenorth>3. ‘deliver limestone for a production boost'
05:22<andythenorth>dunno, doesn’t guide on what’s the best cargo to provide
05:22<@Alberth>people find out soon enough :p
05:22<andythenorth>but eh, the best strategy is *always* provide all cargos
05:23<@Alberth>I hardly ever do that :p
05:23<andythenorth>me neither
05:23<andythenorth>I provide the one that gets most output per input :P
05:23<andythenorth>based on the numbers in the industry extra text :P
05:23<@Alberth>not what BB says you should do? :)
05:24<andythenorth>not in my last few games, but actually, yes
05:24<andythenorth>whatever BB says :P
05:25<@Alberth>"cargo X improves production of cargo Y"
05:26<@Alberth>(for main influences only)
05:28<@Alberth>"other accepted cargoes also improve production"
05:29<@Alberth>will probably fail for cases where there is no obvious favorite
05:29<andythenorth>yup :)
05:30<@Alberth>on the other hand, there is not much to say then, either :)
05:30<@Alberth>"shit comes out if you deliver other shit", as V would put it :p
05:32<@Alberth>"cargo X influences production of cargo Y" is a bit more specific
05:33<@Alberth>"positively correlates" :p
05:33<andythenorth>I could express it as a ratio, unit independent
05:33<andythenorth>no need for translation then
05:33<andythenorth>‘6/8’
05:33<andythenorth>or ‘6:8'
05:33<andythenorth>but it’s maybe less accessible to players
05:33<andythenorth>‘Production per delivery’
05:34<andythenorth>‘Coal: 2/8’, ‘Iron Ore: 4/8’, ‘Stone: ‘2/8’
05:34<@Alberth>yeah, until slag output is different from cokes output or so
05:35<andythenorth>I am reading it as ‘delivered cargo: ratio’
05:35<andythenorth>without specifying how much of _each_ output you get
05:35<andythenorth>dunno
05:35<@Alberth>what that sentence says is "try to do Iron Ore first"
05:35<andythenorth>yes
05:36<andythenorth>‘Each 8t pig iron requires 4t iron ore, 2t coal, 2t stone'
05:36<@Alberth>"Factory desires large amounts of Iron Ore"
05:37<andythenorth>it’s very hard to explain the actual mechanic
05:37<@Alberth>"Factory favors large amounts of Iron Ore"
05:37<andythenorth>because if you deliver all 3 inputs within 3 months, you get 8t out for every 8t in
05:38<@Alberth>so don't, I cannot change it, so it's irrelevant, mostly
05:38<@Alberth>"Full production can be reached by providing all 3 cargoes in 3 months"
05:39<@Alberth>"all cargoes in 3 months" even
05:39<@Alberth>I never care for actual amounts, I just add more trains until I have enough of them
05:40<@Alberth>If I need more output cargo, I insert more input cargo
05:40<@Alberth>I don't run calculations how much from where etc
05:42<@Alberth>you can move the details to the documentation
05:44<@Alberth>giving all the numbers makes people do precise calculations how much supplies to deliver
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05:45<@Alberth>and you get requests like "there is no vehicle for delivering 21.35 units of supplies"
05:45<@Alberth>o/ W
05:45<Wolf01>o/
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05:52<andythenorth>would be pretty trivial to do it in docs
05:53<andythenorth>I think there’s _maybe_ more benefit in showing player ‘all needed cargos have been recently delivered’
05:53<andythenorth>but then again, maybe not also :)
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05:54<@Alberth>basically your 'gung ho' indication :)
05:55<andythenorth>similar yes
05:55<andythenorth>can I just use same for secondary industries? o_O
05:55<andythenorth>not all combine cargo, eh
05:55<andythenorth>some just produce
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06:00<andythenorth>ho
06:00<andythenorth>only one string needed
06:00<andythenorth>‘Currently producing: 0t'
06:00<andythenorth>‘Currently producing: 2t per 8t delivered'
06:00<andythenorth>and then increase it if more cargos are delivered
06:01<@Alberth>could work :)
06:01<@Alberth>sort of "1 furnace in use" :)
06:01<andythenorth>yes
06:02<Wolf01>Are you able to produce 2 different things with the same secondary industry depending on what gets delivered? Like the steel mill produce (a lot more) slag when coal is provided, which also boosts production rate?
06:02<andythenorth>I could code that, but I think it’s hard to explain :)
06:02<@Alberth>don't, players will soon figure it out :p
06:02<andythenorth>if that’s needed for gameplay, it’s usually a sign that there should be another industry type
06:03<@Alberth>it sounds a bit like a different industry set
06:03<Wolf01>I think explaining all isn't needed, you don't explain why you added coal to steel mill instead of processing just the iron ore
06:07<andythenorth>so I’ll move the ratios to the docs, somewhere
06:07<andythenorth>for people who really have to know that stuff
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06:24<@Alberth>s/have/want/ :p
06:24<@Alberth>well, as usual, you're free to ignore us :)
06:25<@Alberth>or change your mind
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06:49<Wolf01>Mmmh, going to mod the shit out of transport fever
06:49<Wolf01>http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=804069984&searchtext= specially this... a double decker bus for 12 passengers always pissed me off
06:50<Wolf01>And the concorde for 24 passengers :P
06:50<Wolf01>Also... daylength
06:50<__ln__>business class
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06:59<@Alberth>it's realistic, there is room for about 12 passengers at each bus station, the remaining space is taken by other passengers that don't leave :)
07:01<@Alberth>ok, steam website just plain fails, can only see the thumbnails
07:05<frosch123>hoi
07:05<frosch123>textstack or nrt?
07:07<Wolf01>What's next on nrt?
07:07<frosch123>roadvehicles caring about roadtypes
07:08<Wolf01>Seems interesting
07:08<Wolf01>Are you sure to start working on vehicles before finishing compatibility between roadtypes?
07:09<frosch123>what is to finish there?
07:10<Wolf01>Some subtypes shouldn't allow the other roadtype, crossings, rail crossings, houses
07:11<Wolf01>I could work on that, seems easier than vehicles
07:12<frosch123>sounds good :)
07:13<andythenorth>vehicles
07:13<andythenorth>text stack is blah
07:41*andythenorth has to do shopping and stuff
07:42<andythenorth>I can make a vehicle grf later probably
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09:48<@Alberth>andy, galvanising plant, and electric arc furnace do look very similar in-game :)
09:58<Wolf01>I think the comma after galvanising plant is wrong :P
10:00<@Alberth>s/plant,/plant/ :)
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10:03<Wolf01>I'm not a fan of the Oxford comma, as I'm not always sure when to use it, but this case looks really funny with the wrong placed comma :D
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10:33<lorran78>hello
10:34<frosch123>we need a 456 guy
10:34<lorran78>i have a question plz?
10:35<lorran78>(est-ce qu'il y a des francais ici?)
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10:37<lorran78>i wanted to know if it's possible to change release date of trains in a grf because i wanted to have a lot of time to make grow my town and have already the trains (for example not year 1880 but year 1)
10:38<frosch123>get the source of the grf, and change it
10:41<frosch123>on the other hand, why do you care about the year?
10:41<frosch123>enable "vehicles never expire" and start in year 2500
10:41<frosch123>then you can freely choose which engines to build
10:44<lorran78>sorry i was afk wait i read ur answer
10:45<lorran78>hum i care about year because of buildings changind and i wanted to see the old one and finish my own transport system :)
10:45<lorran78>and i don't like a lot monorail :)
10:51<lorran78>i tried to decompile the opengrf+ but i didn't find the year release to change it and don't know how to recompile?
10:57<@Alberth>opengfx+trains source is available, can be compiled using nml
10:58<@Alberth>the point of "vehicles never expire" is that you keep all vehicles, ie no need to use monorail
10:59<@Alberth>even at 2500, you still have all vehicles that existed before
11:01<lorran78>hum okay but the buildings will be modern i want to keep old building and see that changing :)
11:02<lorran78>and i tried to use nml but i don't understand where and how to change release date of vehicules (even in hex i don't find the year ...)
11:04<lorran78>but actually i prefer seeing the trains arriving on sale and change them so changing the year of release is my best choice
11:04<lorran78>i can't find the name of trains neither in grf
11:07<@Alberth>nml can use hex numbers, but usually it's plain text
11:08<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains
11:09<@Alberth>please change the name and the grfid if you change it, to avoid confusion
11:10<lorran78>ok
11:11<lorran78>can u explain me all step to see if i make something wrong?
11:11<lorran78>i downloaded the lastest version of ogfx-trains
11:11<@Alberth>source ?
11:11<lorran78>hum sorry not the source wait :)
11:12<@Alberth>preprocessed source is likely the simplest, unless you have a linux system with the usual development tools at it
11:13<lorran78>it's ok i took ogfx-trains-0.3.0-source.tar.gz
11:14<lorran78>uncompressed it :)
11:14<@Alberth>open the nml file with a text editor
11:14<@Alberth>find "grfid"
11:14<lorran78>which nml file?
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11:15<lorran78>*.pnml?
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11:16<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: during the "make" process, the .pnml files are combined into an .nml file
11:16<@Alberth>oh, you have unprocessed source? that's ok too, but it needs more tools to build
11:16<lorran78>ok i tried to understand all that :)
11:17<@Alberth>grfid : "OG+1"; <-- this line, in header.pnml in the unprocessed source
11:17<lorran78>ok i found it
11:17<Eddi|zuHause>the grfid can be any 4-letter string
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11:17<@Alberth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ogfx-trains/nightlies/v6018/ that's the latest build
11:18<lorran78>OG+0 for me year 0 :p
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11:18<lorran78>is it ok?
11:18<Eddi|zuHause>the usual convention is to use your initials as the first two letters
11:18<lorran78>oh okay
11:19<lorran78>then it's ok now i put 4 characters
11:19<lorran78>then i save it?
11:20<@Alberth>never hurts to save it :)
11:20<Wolf01>Mmmh, I think I should check also the already present roadtype for flags, and not only the one I'm placing :/
11:20<@Alberth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/ogfx-trains/repository/entry/src/engine_uu37.pnml
11:20<@Alberth>trains don't seem to have a new start year
11:20<@Alberth>let me look how to change that
11:21<lorran78>oh i see :)
11:22<@Alberth>you should have a similar section for each engine
11:23<@Alberth>add a introduction_date: date(yyyy, mm, dd) line in the properties
11:23<@Alberth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles properties are listed here
11:24<lorran78>how to do it?
11:24<@Alberth>got the part of the file with such a section?
11:25<@Alberth>"uu37" <-- should be unique enough to find the section
11:26<lorran78>okay wait
11:26<Wolf01>Is there a way to count road bits?
11:26<@Alberth>item(FEAT_TRAINS, uu37, 14) { that likely also works as search term
11:26<lorran78>like that : item(FEAT_TRAINS, uu37, 14) { property { sprite_id: SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN; // We have our own sprite misc_flags: bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP) introduction_date: date(yyyy, mm, dd); } ENGINE_GRAPHICS_BLOCK(uu37_indepot) }
11:27<@Alberth>Wolf01: there is a count-number-of-set-bits in src/core/bitmath or so
11:27<Wolf01>CountBits
11:28<lorran78>i can use TAB in the file?
11:28<Wolf01>I think it's safe to assume it's not a junction when bits are <=2
11:28<Wolf01>(the number of bits)
11:28<@Alberth>lorran78: yep, not insert "introduction_date: date(1500, 1, 1);" after "property {"
11:28<@Alberth>*now insert
11:28<@Alberth>TABs are no problem
11:29<lorran78>before property or after sorry i am not sure?
11:29<@Alberth>after
11:29<lorran78>okay then it's ok
11:30<@Alberth>ie property { introduction_date: date(1500, 1, 1); sprite_id: ....
11:30<lorran78>ur numbers are example?
11:30<Wolf01>Nice, I can build junctions but not curves O_o
11:30<lorran78>or i must set 1500?
11:30<lorran78>if i want of course :p
11:30<@Alberth>no idea, let's see what the properties page says :)
11:31<@Alberth>Valid range for yyyy is 0 ... 5000000. <-- take your valid year :)
11:31<lorran78>i must put a ";" after all properties?
11:32<@Alberth>yes, it terminates a property
11:32<lorran78>okay
11:32<lorran78>then i think it's okay now :)
11:32<lorran78>yyyy for using 0 to 9999?
11:32<@Alberth>good, do you have the nml compiler?
11:32<@Alberth>(05:31:18 PM) Alberth: Valid range for yyyy is 0 ... 5000000. <-- take your valid year :)
11:33<lorran78>oh okay if i start from year 0 i put 0 then?
11:34<lorran78>i have this one : nml-0.4.4-windows-win32
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11:34<@Alberth>year 0 sounds a bit early, but whatever you like :)
11:34<@Alberth>ok
11:35<lorran78>okay maybe it's a test for me now :p
11:35<@Alberth>at the command shell, run nmlc ogfxfile.nml
11:35<lorran78>so i save it :p
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11:36<lorran78>okay wait
11:36<@Alberth>where "nmlc" is the nml compiler, and ogxfile.nml is the name of the opengfx+trains nml file that you just saved :)
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11:37<andythenorth>frosch123: so what’s best? A test grf in the nml fork? Or a branch of Road Hog with NRT support?
11:37<Wolf01>Please, kill me with fire... I said n-bits <= 2 is not a junction, I was checking for <= 2 to be a junction :|
11:38<andythenorth>Wolf01: devloloping :D
11:38<Wolf01>Eh, lol is not enough here
11:38<lorran78>i don't have ogxfile.nml (i save the header.pnml with my grfid and engine_uu37.pnml with this change
11:38<frosch123>andythenorth: since we only have silly types like red and yellow, i guess something in the nml fork
11:38<andythenorth>ok I’ll copy some sprites in there
11:38<andythenorth>oh I’ll patch the existing example RV grf
11:38<andythenorth>ok
11:39<lorran78>too many questions in same place lol
11:40<lorran78>i use ogfx-trains-0.3.0-source so if i understand good i must compile pnml to nml?
11:41<@Alberth>ah, you have unprocessed source
11:41<andythenorth>usually a makefile does that
11:41<@Alberth>then you need make, and the c compiler too
11:42<lorran78>maybe i'll use the processed source then :p
11:42<lorran78>wait
11:44<@Alberth>I'd hope that has a .nml file :)
11:45<lorran78>i've done same in the processed source
11:46<lorran78>hum don't seem to have nml neither :/
11:46<lorran78>which c compiler dl?
11:46<@Alberth>how silly :(
11:47<@Alberth>gcc, normally, as it only does C pre-processing
11:47<@Alberth>*.pnml are collected into a .nml file, with the usual #include mechanism of C/C++
11:48<@Alberth>together with expanding the #define macros
11:48<lorran78>where to download it?
11:48<frosch123>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/ogfx-trains/push/LATEST/ <- you can get the precompiled nml from here
11:48<frosch123>ogfx-trains.nml
11:48<lorran78>hum
11:48<lorran78>wait
11:49<frosch123>https://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial/Installation <- that tells you about how to install and run nml
11:49<lorran78>i try this one now
11:50<Sylf>that tutorial doesn't mention anything about compiling pnml using gnu make and gcc
11:50<Sylf>which some people probably see as knowledge gap that's not covered
11:50<@Alberth>it doesn't indeed, although I would expect it to be written somewhere
11:51<lorran78>oh sorry i see the nml !
11:51<lorran78>it's not in source :p
11:52<andythenorth>ok so frosch123 I need a roadtypetable, and road_type prop
11:52<andythenorth>I won’t do any cb stuff yet
11:52<@Alberth>technically, the c pre-processing is not part of nml, it's just useful for larger projects
11:52<@Alberth>and not everybody uses it
11:53*andythenorth thinks the c pre-processing is a bit of a misleading dead end, but eh, that’s just me :)
11:53<@Alberth>Sylf: ^
11:53<andythenorth>it was useful to learn it, and useful to stop using it
11:53<lorran78>i have the ogfx-trains.nml
11:53<Sylf>:P
11:53<@Alberth>progress! :)
11:53<lorran78>i put the nml in the nml program wait
11:53<andythenorth>nml needs some kind of string replacement using ${} type convention or similar, with a simple loop syntax
11:54<andythenorth>and a global constants table maybe
11:54<frosch123>Sylf: Alberthhttps://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/1706/NewGRF_development_guide_for_Windows_users_0.9.0.pdf <- there is also a full guide to install a vm for make and stuff
11:54<frosch123>but it involes a lot of work
11:54<andythenorth>actually /me has no idea what it needs, I have my own thing
11:54<@Alberth>I tried that, but something didn't work with that
11:55<@Alberth>^ andy, about adding a pre-processor to nml
11:55<Sylf>I've written my own guide on how to use cygwin to compile pnml :P
11:55<andythenorth>the roadtypetable just makes it possible to refer to the labels as constants?
11:56*andythenorth has never understood the railtype stuff, other people implemented it for me
11:56<lorran78>something wrong when compiling
11:57<lorran78>i put the nml in the source where folder src is
11:57<frosch123>andythenorth: i guess you need a roadtypetable with ROAD and the other labels from the testgrf
11:57<andythenorth>yes
11:57<andythenorth>doing it
11:57<frosch123>and then the road_type property for the vehicle
11:57<frosch123>mind, there are also tramtypetable and tram_type
11:57<andythenorth>yes :)
11:57<lorran78>afk
11:57<andythenorth>there’s some compatibility thing in the table eh? a list
11:57*andythenorth will worry about that later
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11:57<frosch123>compatibility is in the roadtype grf, not in the vehicle grf
11:58<andythenorth>it’s funny implementing something I don’t understand :P
11:59<andythenorth>oh the list is a name assignment
11:59<frosch123>sounds familar, like extending yapf cache for roadtypes :)
11:59<Wolf01>https://gist.github.com/Wolfolo/c9c5189b98b44e13e1f97fa198293829 prototype stage, what do you think?
12:00<frosch123>oh, that's what you meant with junctions
12:00<lorran78>re
12:01<lorran78>i have this error
12:01<frosch123>i thought you only meant disallowing tram on certain roads
12:01<lorran78>wait
12:02<Wolf01>That's another flag ;)
12:03<Wolf01>For that I'm undecided if allowing only tram crossing or disallowing tram entirely
12:05<Wolf01>Both are easy, for the first one I should just check if tram and road have at least one bit in common and then return error if true, for the second just check the flag
12:05<Wolf01>This prototype is for freeways/highways
12:07<andythenorth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p0wjbgi2l
12:07<andythenorth>frosch123: choking on ‘ROAD’ at L152
12:07<andythenorth>unknown identifier, suggests my roadtypetable is not implemented correctly?
12:07<Wolf01>Try "ROAD"?
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12:07<andythenorth>nah that’s a literal
12:07<andythenorth>:)
12:07*andythenorth tries anyway
12:08<Wolf01>string(ROAD)?
12:08<Wolf01>Or what was the right function name
12:08<andythenorth>nah, it’s a constant
12:08<andythenorth>the roadtypetable should make those constants available, afaik
12:08<andythenorth>dunno
12:09<andythenorth>I implemented roadtypetable by copying railtypetable
12:09<Wolf01>Maybe it collides with something else
12:09<Wolf01>Does it work with RED_ or YELL=
12:09<Wolf01>?
12:09<andythenorth>no
12:09<andythenorth>tried it :)
12:11<@Alberth>frosch: very extensive manual :)
12:11<Wolf01>Maybe it doesn't like custom types
12:11<andythenorth>I just found some debug print handling, maybe I can use that
12:12<frosch123>andythenorth: i would just compare with working train newgrf :)
12:12<andythenorth>-s is a useful nml flag eh
12:13<@Alberth>if you can read a stack-dump :p
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12:13<andythenorth>it’s python eh
12:13<frosch123>andythenorth: global_constants.py: const_list is missing road and tram table
12:13<andythenorth>I am trying to make debug_print() do something
12:13<andythenorth>oh ok
12:14*andythenorth fixes that
12:14<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pxrq9reag?/pxrq9reag <- something like that
12:15<andythenorth>sorted
12:17<lorran78>eat time later :p
12:18<andythenorth>frosch123: I pushed, one of each truck for ROAD, BLUE, YELLOW
12:18<andythenorth>available from 1926 eh
12:18<Wolf01>Could I use {STRING1} in error messages?
12:20<frosch123>iirc the commandcost also has dparams
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12:23<Wolf01>Seem not
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12:23<Wolf01>I could write a generic error message, "... road type doesn't allow junctions"
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12:24<frosch123>oh, it only has a newgrf text stack, how funny :)
12:25<andythenorth>"text stack is everywhere”
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12:54<Wolf01>Mmmh, how bad is it that building roads with drag&drop and disallowed junctions makes difficult to build curves?
12:54<Wolf01>You need to stop in the right place with mouse or the last bit won't be built
12:55<Wolf01>Maybe it's due to my habit of dragging roads and then remove superfluous bits
12:59<Wolf01>Also, would trams get something good from this flag, or I'll keep it only for roads?
13:07<andythenorth>what’s the flag do?
13:07<Wolf01>Disallow junctions
13:08<Wolf01>https://www.packtpub.com/packt/offers/free-learning oh, nice
13:20<lorran78>i am back sorry :)
13:23<lorran78>how to select language i have language error when using nml
13:30<@Alberth>from translated languages, I am guessing?
13:30<@Alberth>not relevant, it's just warnings
13:31<@Alberth>do you get a .grf file?
13:31<@Alberth>lorran78: ^
13:31<lorran78>progress wait
13:31<lorran78>yes
13:31<lorran78>i have another error
13:31<lorran78>wait
13:31<@Alberth>/me waits
13:32<lorran78>[Knmlc ERROR: "src/header.pnml", line 10: Unknown string "STR_GRF_NAME"
13:32<@Alberth>ha :)
13:32<lorran78>←[K nmlc warning: Default language file "lang\english.lng" doesn't exist ←[Knmlc ERROR: "src/header.pnml", line 10: Unknown string "STR_GRF_NAME" Included from: "ogfx-trains.pnml", line 8 (i have all this)
13:33<lorran78>i put the nml in the nml program and pointed to the nml which is in the source folder
13:33<lorran78>(i hope my english is ok :p)
13:33<@Alberth>yeah, nml expects a "lang" sub-directory with .lng files (language files)
13:33<lorran78>sorry mistake
13:34<lorran78>i put the nml in the source folder and launch the nml program pointing it :)
13:34<@Alberth>you can tell nmlc where to look for the lang directory with a flag iirc
13:34<@Alberth>or you set it up such that a lang sub-directory exists :)
13:34<lorran78>yes if i want french (there is one :p)
13:35<lorran78>there is lang folder
13:35<@Alberth>it's a train newgrf, doesn't have much text :)
13:35<lorran78>i think so but if i want to have french what cmd to had?
13:36<@Alberth>either create a lang folder (filled with lng files) in the directory where you run nmlc, or supply a flag
13:36<lorran78>okay
13:36<lorran78>wait
13:37<@Alberth>I don't know the name of the flag, try nmlc --help
13:38<lorran78>when i put lang in nml program folder i had that error : ←[Knmlc ERROR: "lang\english.lng", line 2: Undefined command "VERSION"
13:38<lorran78>and there is this line in the file : STR_GRF_NAME :OpenGFX+ Trains {VERSION}
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>these should be filled in by the makefile at some point
13:39<lorran78>i think {} is not ok?
13:39<Eddi|zuHause>no, there's a "custom commands" file something
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>and that should be filled by the makefile with the current revision number or whaterver
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>whenever you type "make"
13:40<lorran78>okay
13:40<Eddi|zuHause>if you don't use make, you need to do that manually
13:40<lorran78>ok wait
13:41<lorran78>it pre-processing now
13:41<@Alberth>looking for the name of that file
13:42<lorran78>same error for all language
13:42<lorran78>okay
13:42<lorran78>no grf after processing or i don't know where it is?
13:42<@Alberth>do you have a custom_tags.txt file?
13:43<lorran78>should i put nml program directly in the source folder ?
13:43<lorran78>wait i check
13:43<lorran78>nope no such file
13:43<lorran78>i had that error :
13:44<lorran78>←[Knmlc ERROR: Path "F:\_Mes Documents\_DL\____OpenTTD\nml-0.4.4-windows-win32\s rc" does not exist (even after case conversions)
13:44<lorran78>i suppose i must create src folder?
13:44<Eddi|zuHause>spurious soace inbetween "s rc"?
13:44<lorran78>copy bug :p
13:44<lorran78>there is no space
13:45<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pdeeyxffw something like this, just 3 lines
13:45<@Alberth>I just invented a few names, feel free to change :)
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: Commit by translators :: r27692 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2016-12-11 19:45:39 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: -Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: croatian: 25 changes by VoyagerOne
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: english (us): 2 changes by Supercheese
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: russian: 1 change by Lone_Wolf
13:45<@DorpsGek>TrueBrain: (...)
13:46<@Alberth>always love that, instead of listing the last file too, it says (...) :)
13:47<lorran78>where do i put these line?
13:47<@Alberth>custom_tags.txt
13:47<lorran78>new file then?
13:48<lorran78>i can't find it
13:48<@Alberth>yeah, it should be included in the processed source, but apparently it's missing, so make a new one
13:49<@Alberth>clearly nobody ever tried to build a version from the prcoessed source text :p
13:49<lorran78>where did i put the file?
13:50<@Alberth>in the directory where you run nmlc
13:50<@Alberth>ie next to the 'lang' folder if you don't use a flag
13:51<lorran78>okay wait
13:51<lorran78>done and testing :p
13:52<lorran78>preprocessing
13:52<lorran78>it's always so long
13:52<lorran78>it's always so long?
13:53<lorran78>error : ←[Knmlc ERROR: Path "F:\_Mes Documents\_DL\____OpenTTD\nml-0.4.4-windows-win32\s rc" does not exist (even after case conversions)
13:53<lorran78>sorry mistake :)
13:53<lorran78>retesting
13:54<lorran78>reretesting lol
13:54<@Alberth>probably looks for image files
13:54<lorran78>folder gfx missing :p
13:54<lorran78>now ok :p
13:55<lorran78>okay :)
13:55<@Alberth>the nml file is large :)
13:56<@Alberth>oh, not that bad, just 500K
13:56<lorran78>:p
13:56<@Alberth>.grf is much worse :p
13:56<lorran78>i found the command to choose language but i am not sure :/
13:56<@Alberth>45M, and that's an old version
13:57<lorran78>hum it will be long !!!!!!!!
13:57<lorran78>bug now no error
13:57<@Alberth>.grf has all languages, you can choose language in OpenTTD
13:57<lorran78>ah okay!
14:01<lorran78>okay i wanted to know if there is a url to explain how to make best profit with train
14:01<lorran78>bad english i am searching how to ask :p
14:02<lorran78>lost by good english :/
14:02<@Alberth>is that a problem?
14:02<lorran78>lost my:p
14:02<@Alberth>you make loads of money very soon, in OpenTTTD
14:02<lorran78>long time no chat :p
14:02<@Alberth>we're open 24/7 :p
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14:02<lorran78>i used to play old tycoon
14:02<lorran78>i always have my old saves !!
14:02<lorran78>lol
14:02<@Alberth>not to mention the zillion other chats at IRC :)
14:03<lorran78>yes :p
14:03<lorran78>it's easier to earn money in openttd?
14:04<@Alberth>it has a few more easy ways than tycoon had :)
14:04<lorran78>oh yes another question !
14:04<@Alberth>playing larger maps does a lot
14:05<lorran78>is there a grf to make industries never close?
14:05<lorran78>or better to close when we want :p
14:05<lorran78>i found one to do this but somekind bug :/
14:05<lorran78>no menu nothing
14:06<@Alberth>you can check out opengfx+industries, it may have a few settings, maybe it has a way to disable closing
14:06<lorran78>maybe yes
14:06<@Alberth>otherwise you can use a different industry set, for example FIRS
14:07<lorran78>ok
14:07<@Alberth>but tbh, I hardly ever have an industry closing on me, give it good service, and it will stay in business, in general
14:07<@Alberth>ie station rating at or above 67% or so
14:08<lorran78>i read that somewhere yes :p
14:08<lorran78>but you never have time to make all industries before it's closing :p
14:08<@Alberth>that's not a problem, new industries will appear instead
14:08<lorran78>yes of course :p
14:09<lorran78>another question fun maybe :p
14:10<lorran78>is there a way to make a tile where no industries can grow?
14:10<lorran78>to define where we want to see industries (far away from town :p)
14:10<FLHerne>lorran78: There's a tool to buy land (in the landscaping toolbar)
14:10<@Alberth>have less towns? :)
14:11<FLHerne>But it's not very useful for your purpose
14:11<@Alberth>some industries are specifically constrained to only pop up in towns.
14:11<lorran78>yes i know :p
14:11<lorran78>only few
14:11<lorran78>banks for example
14:11<@Alberth>but it's a newgrf thing that you can change (no idea how though)
14:12<@Alberth>FIRS has a few more
14:12<lorran78>oh ok
14:12<@Alberth>mostly to deliver town goods
14:12<lorran78>hum and when the compiling is done how would i define a new introduction date for train?
14:13<lorran78>vehicule not only train
14:13<lorran78>:)
14:13<@Alberth>add "introduction_date: date(...);" to every engine
14:14<@Alberth>if you want other vehicles, you need other newgrfs
14:14<@Alberth>if you can settle for a little earlier, like 1800 or so, there are more newgrfs available
14:15<lorran78>i don't need more i think but in every engine ? explain more?
14:15<@Alberth>you added that text to the uu37 engine now (I think)
14:15<lorran78>i saw such grf yes
14:15<lorran78>yes that is done:p
14:15<lorran78>ah okay !
14:15<lorran78>(i understand now :p)
14:15<lorran78>lol
14:15<@Alberth>if you want any other engine, that engine also needs a different introduction date
14:16<lorran78>i'll test uu37 then i will add other :p
14:16<lorran78>but then where are the real(actual) introduction date write?
14:16<@Alberth>and you want to set the "vehicles never expire" flag in your openttd.cfg file, before you start
14:16<lorran78>yes :p
14:17<@Alberth>but then where are the real(actual) introduction date write? <-- I don't understand that question
14:17<lorran78>sorry
14:18<@Alberth>introduction_date: date(1, 1, 1); is the real introduction date (except for some randomization by OpenTTD)
14:18<@Alberth>ie year 1, Januari 1st
14:18<@Alberth>ie you write it literally in the grf file
14:18<lorran78>all vehicule has a introduction date in the original version of opengfx+ trains but we can't find it? where is it written?
14:19<@Alberth>oh those
14:19<@Alberth>it's the same as the default game
14:19<lorran78>oh okay !
14:19<lorran78>done !
14:20<@Alberth>it's in a table in the OpenTTD source code somewhere
14:20<@Alberth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Trains I use this list
14:21<lorran78>thanx :p
14:21<lorran78>i go test a game i'll be back :p
14:22<@Alberth>ok, have fun :)
14:24<lorran78>hum no train on year 1 :/ i check if i've done all :p
14:25<@Alberth>try year 3 or so
14:25<lorran78>tried :p
14:25<lorran78>year 1000 too
14:26<lorran78>wait i test more
14:26<@Alberth>you loaded the correct newgrf?
14:26<@Alberth>and started a new game?
14:27<@Alberth>did you get a warning that you had to wait for 1900 or so years at game start?
14:27<supermop>i cant think of anything else to get my dad so i am making him a tiny cooling tower
14:27<lorran78>yes for grf correct
14:27<lorran78>yes started new game
14:27<lorran78>wait testing
14:28<lorran78>nope no uu37 :/
14:29<lorran78>no warning
14:29<lorran78>what is that warning?
14:30<@Alberth>try starting a game in 1500 without newgrfs :)
14:30<lorran78>okay
14:30<@Alberth>it says something like "there won't be vehicles in another xx years"
14:31<@Alberth>but that is not the case now, so apparently there is some vehicle in your start year
14:31<lorran78>i have no warning without grf
14:31<lorran78>strange no?
14:31<@Alberth>it is
14:31<@Alberth>no idea what happens
14:32<lorran78>i really don't have vehicules lol
14:32<lorran78>hum
14:33<lorran78>tried another time to run game and new game and no warning :p
14:33<lorran78>i have 1.6.1 ver
14:36<@Alberth>hmm, maybe I am going mad :p
14:38<lorran78>lol
14:38<lorran78>i never saw that warning since i discover openttd
14:39<lorran78>and what if there is no nml file?
14:39<lorran78>for other grf etc
14:41<@Alberth>I hope you are very good at reading hex numbers then :)
14:41<@Alberth>there is grfcodec for decoding and encoding grf files, but it speaks hex numbers, basically
14:42<@Alberth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Main_Page manual :)
14:44<lorran78>i already tried grfcodec and i am not that good :(
14:44<lorran78>but there is no other way?
14:44<@Alberth>another option is to make your own newgrfs
14:45<@Alberth>do the tutorial of nml, it explains how to code a vehicle
14:45<@Alberth>while normally, you also have your own graphics, it's not actually required, you can use the graphics of the default vehicles
14:46<lorran78>okay for that :)
14:46<@Alberth>I think by simply not stating your own graphics, but not sure
14:47<@Alberth>if you use the GPL license, you can find a lot of graphics that you can use
14:48<@Alberth>that of course means you have to publish your source, if you publish the grf
14:48<lorran78>yes yes
14:49<lorran78>wait baby time lol :p
14:52<@Alberth>andythenorth: worried about small inland seas eh? what about small islands? http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/small_island.png
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15:02<Wolf01>I'm defeated... tetris with lego boxes again
15:03<Wolf01>Also now I migrated all the 9 mixels series into a single amazon big box
15:04<Eddi|zuHause>is that english you are speaking? i don't understand a word
15:04<Wolf01>Who knows?
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15:22<andythenorth>Alberth: I get that quite a lot :)
15:27<andythenorth>Wolf01: trams get nothing from disallow junctions, but eh, is it easier to have common spec?
15:28<andythenorth>also if junctions are disallowed…how do you do junctions? o_O
15:28<Wolf01>You end up with a straight road to another roadtype
15:29<Eddi|zuHause>how do you build highway onramps if the highway roadype disallows junctions?
15:29<Wolf01>I could review it to disallow junctions with other roadtypes, but that's exploitable to build unwanted junctions
15:30<andythenorth>you have to build an occasional junction tile from other type eh?
15:30<Wolf01>If you want to build an intersection with a highway, you can always build it as normal road
15:31<andythenorth>is there a disallow crossings flag?
15:31<Wolf01>Yes
15:31<andythenorth>preventing railroad crossings might be a thing
15:32<Wolf01>We could put some different flags to define all the wanted behaviours of the roadtype
15:34<Wolf01>And if stars and planets will align, provided graphics and state machines, we could have proper highway ramps, highway gates, highways where faster vehicles could overtake
15:36<andythenorth>overtaking :D
15:36<andythenorth>how hard can it be eh? o_O
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15:49<Wolf01>I'm going to make ottd explode again
15:53<Wolf01>Mmmh, expand town in scenario editor disapoints me
16:03<Wolf01>CmdExpandTown how does it work? I got that makes new roads, expands the town radius and increments the houses cache, but where does it effectively builds the houses? O_O
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16:27<@Alberth>lots of random walking very quickly in the next loops?
16:27<Wolf01>I noticed that
16:28<@Alberth>there is probably a counter that increments or decrements to the next walk
16:28<@Alberth>just set it to some high or low number, and regular tile loop does the rest?
16:28<@Alberth>nn
16:28<Wolf01>nn
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16:31<__ln__>i think there's something odd about spotify's timeline indicator when playing this particular album: http://imgur.com/a/lvXJC
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16:31<Wolf01>static const TileIndexDiffC tiles[] = { {0, 1}, {1, 0}, {0, -1}, {-1, 0} }; I'm checking the wrong tiles?, or not enough tiles?
16:32<Wolf01>__ln__, iirc even google did something like that
16:32<Wolf01>Google=youtube
16:36<__ln__>first customization i've seen in spotify though
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16:38<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i don't think i see what you're seeing
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16:42<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: in your spotify you always have a light saber?
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16:47<Wolf01>Yeah, no more towns along tram routes
16:47<Wolf01>I made it
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17:24<lorran78>hum
17:25<lorran78>i noticed that even if i change data in my pnml file when i compile with nml i always have the same grf file...
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17:26<Eddi|zuHause>then you forgot a step
17:27<lorran78>i'll resume what i do tell me if something wrong
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>if you change a pnml file, you need to rerun the preprocessing step to get a new nml file, then call nmlc again on that new nml file
17:27<lorran78>wait i read :)
17:28<Eddi|zuHause>(make should do this automatically, unless the makefile is missing dependencies)
17:28<lorran78>if i see the step "preprocessing" with nml then it's ok?
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17:28<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, probably not
17:28<lorran78>okay...
17:29<lorran78>i have nml program and source of my modified grf in the same place is it ok?
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17:29<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know what you see
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17:29<lorran78>the second time i compile it's faster
17:29<+glx>maybe nml doesn't depend on pnml in makefile
17:29<lorran78>it's the cache i suppose
17:30<lorran78>oh
17:30<lorran78>how can i check that?
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>yes, nml caches images, so it doesn't need to run them again if you only change text
17:30<lorran78>it's cool then :p
17:30<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: please tell us which commands you run and what their output is
17:31<lorran78>ok
17:31<Eddi|zuHause>(put on paste.openttdcoop.org)
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17:33<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: no, i'm just having a hard time identifying that as a lightsabre
17:34<lorran78>i have problem to copy from my dos windows :/
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>rightclick->select?
17:35<Eddi|zuHause>windows was always a bit weird with that
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17:36<lorran78>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p5rlji8aq
17:36<lorran78>done maybe :p
17:39<Wolf01>As shit happens always, how do I sync a local branch with master without losing all the edits?
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17:43<lorran78>eddi did u see it?
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17:53<lorran78>Ya un francais ici par hasard? :p
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17:53<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: sorry, i wasn't paying attention for a minute
17:53<lorran78>okay np :p
17:53<lorran78>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p5rlji8aq
17:53<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: yeah, you're not doing the preprocessing
17:53<lorran78>okay
17:53<lorran78>then how?
17:54<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: you should install mingw (if you haven't already), and use the "make" program
17:55<lorran78>okay
17:57<lorran78>here ? https://sourceforge.net/projects/mingw/files/latest/download?source=top3_dlp_t5
18:06<lorran78>how do i use it?
18:06<lorran78>i have a windows "mingw installation manager"
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18:27<lorran78>eddi are u here?
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18:33<lorran78>how can i use minGW?
18:33<lorran78>i installed make from the installer manager from minGW...
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18:37<lorran78>noone else to help me with my nml program and preprocessing?
18:44<FLHerne_>lorran78: What are you modifying?
18:45<FLHerne_>Generally, cd to the project's base directory and run `make`
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19:08<Wolf01>'night
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