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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-14

---Logopened Wed Dec 14 00:00:16 2016
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05:42<__ln__>o/ + \o = \8/
05:46<Wolf01>That's... weird
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06:09<crem>What is wierd is that 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + ... = -1/12
06:10<__ln__>It most certainly doesn't equal that.
06:13<crem>For some definition of infinite sums, it does!
06:13<Wolf01>If you do it by hand no, but with the theorem yes, too bad it involves complex numbers so it's pure fantasyt
06:13<crem>I does not need complex numbers.
06:14<crem>And people say it's used a lot in quantum physics, where it "agrees with experiments", whatever it means.
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06:16<Wolf01>It's because it's a concept and not a real thing, like if you turn on and of a light for a x number of times, if you sum the states you will get that the light was half turned on and half turned off
06:19<crem>Yes, that depends on rules of summation. Classical is a limit of partial sums, which doesn't exist in this case. But if you change definition to limit of averages of partial sums produced so far, then it's clearly equal to 0.5. (and when "classical" sum exists, it will always be equal to "new" sum, so it's extention of the definition).
06:19<Wolf01>It's like defining that 0+0+0+... = 0 and 1+1+1+1+... = 1 and 1+0+1+0+1+.. = 0.5
06:20<crem>1+1+1+1 = -1/2 actually :)
06:20<crem>so 1+0+1+0.
06:20<Wolf01>1+1+1+ are states not numbers
06:21<Wolf01>Sorry if I used numbers for practicity
06:21<Wolf01>Poor perfornance warning converting int to boolean
06:21<crem>1-1+1-1+.. = 0.5. <= that's on off on off. And 1+0+0+0+0+0=1 is "on, then keep on, then keep on"
06:21<crem>That's visual studio's thing.
06:22<crem>Visual studio's warnings are often silly.
06:22<Wolf01>1+1+1+1+ means on and keep on, not changing state
06:22<Wolf01>1+0+1+0 means changing state
06:22<Wolf01>1+0+0+0 mean turn on then off and keep off
06:24<crem>No, you mean sequence (of partial sums), for example 1,0,1,0,1 <= that's on-off. And that sequence of partial sums is produced of 1-1+1-1+1..
06:24<crem>But, anyway.
06:24<crem>I just shared a weird thing, not that I wanted to discuss it much. :)
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06:29<Wolf01>I still can't get how turning on a light could be summed, you couldn't have 2x light by turning it on twice and you can't have 10x light by keeping it on for 10 seconds, but you can approximate it to be on and off for half of the time (which is where you had 5 seconds light, but no 0.5 light and neither 5x light)
06:30<Wolf01>-1/12, 0.5 light etc are valid only in a specific context
06:30<Wolf01>Which isn't the reality
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12:47<Wolf01>Cat was here?
12:47<Wolf01>Totally a cat, I didn't even notice it :P
12:47<frosch123> <- i also had a list
12:48<Wolf01>But my list have a working patch
12:48<frosch123>oh, i thought it was only a list of things to do :o
12:52<frosch123>there are some occurences of "rail" in the comments, which should be "road"
12:52<Wolf01>Yes, I know
12:53<Wolf01>It has been hard to understand what the rail convert command did.. at 2am :P
12:54<Wolf01>But I took it piece by piece and tried to learn what they did, then I rewritten most of it
12:54<Wolf01>I copied the comments for reference
12:55<frosch123>the levelcrossing check should be after the "HasType", so it does not error on tram-levelcrossing when converting road
12:56<frosch123>if (!rtids.HasType(to_type.basetype)) return error; <- that should be a "continue", noe "return"
12:56<Wolf01>Right, it's inside a loop
12:57<frosch123>it leaks the iterator, but the function sshould also just ignore those tiles
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12:58<frosch123>it also needs to check for present roadvehicles
12:58<frosch123>and not convert to types where they are stuck on
12:58<Wolf01>Yes, I left that part out
12:58<Wolf01>It's on todo list
12:59<Wolf01>I'm thinking to publish the local branch, it's a big patch
13:01<frosch123>there are no yapf caches for road btw
13:04<frosch123>i wonder whether rail conversion even works correctly :p
13:04<frosch123>i think there are various cases where you can depower vehicles
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13:06<Wolf01>Ok, now I understand why I put that check after (the hastype), because it asserts when is not road and the switch on tile type intercepts that
13:07<frosch123>yes, we have that issue in multiple places
13:07<frosch123>we need a version of HasTileRoadType that does not assert, but return false
13:07<frosch123>like GetAnyRoadBits
13:08<frosch123>we do not want that in all cases, since the assert is useful sometimes, but in many cases it is also the good behaviour
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13:08<Wolf01>Just check for tiletype and return false if !assert content
13:09<frosch123>usuually we have different functions
13:09<frosch123>like IsRoadStop and IsRoadStopTile
13:09<Wolf01>Yes, I found them
13:09<frosch123>the function without "Tile" asserts
13:09<frosch123>we have those in many places
13:11<Wolf01>But function names are starting to be weird... HasTileRoadTypeTile and even HasTileRoadTypeRoadTile
13:15<@Alberth>At least your name uses more words, unlike
13:17<Wolf01>Only because TiletileileTileTile doesn't have a meaning
13:19<frosch123>Wolf01: GetAnyRoadTypes
13:20<frosch123>consistent to GetAnyRoadBits
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13:22<frosch123>possibly also RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTileIfValid
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13:31<Wolf01><frosch123> possibly also RoadTypeIdentifiers::FromTileIfValid <- isn't it a nonsense?
13:31<Wolf01>If not valid return invalid :P
13:36<Wolf01>Btw, if valid is the one with the assert or is the other one?
13:43<frosch123>IFValid has no assert
13:43<frosch123>that's the same as for the pool functions
13:43<frosch123>and for UnpackIfValid
13:44<frosch123>consistent naming :)
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27695 /trunk/src/lang (french.txt spanish.txt) (2016-12-14 19:45:37 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish: 4 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:45<@DorpsGek>french: 26 changes by glx
13:46<Wolf01>It's not the name which bothers me, it's the meaning, because that "valid" suggests me about a valid RoadTypeIdentifier, but in this case it's the right TileType
13:47<frosch123>all IfValid functions return some "invalid" value if the parameter is invalid. all non-IfValid functions assert
13:48<Wolf01> could it be like this?
13:48<frosch123>i would make it a member, but yes
13:49<frosch123>possibly the if part could also be some "MayTileTypeHaveRoad"
13:49<frosch123>something like "MayHaveBridgeAbove"
13:50<frosch123>then all the other functions can use that function to either assert, or return invalid
13:50<frosch123>possibly "MayHaveRoad" is more consistent to "MayHaveBridgeAbove"
13:53<Wolf01>Shouldn't we put these functions in some other header, like tile_map?
13:53<Wolf01>The MayHaveBridgeAbove is in afterload
13:53<frosch123>yeah, it was more prominent in the past
13:53<frosch123>i think it got refactored away at some point
13:54<frosch123>when all tiles got those bits
13:54<Wolf01>It's still used only there, but I think it could be used for houses too
13:54<Wolf01>I found a similar check when building houses on my other patch
13:54<frosch123>if you check ottd 1.1. source or seomthing, then MayHaveBridgeAbove was in bridge_map.hpp
13:55<frosch123>MayHaveBridgeAbove is a compatibility function from the past, it was hidden in afterload, so it is not used anymore :)
13:55<frosch123>about the road stuff: for me it all belongs to GetAnyRoadBits
13:55<Wolf01>Btw, got to go
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13:58*andythenorth pulls changes
14:06<andythenorth>blocker to making a newgrf: need a name
14:06<frosch123>red hog
14:06<andythenorth>I suppose adding roadtypes to Termite is bad?
14:07<andythenorth>I have so many fricking grfs to remember to add to my games :)
14:07<andythenorth>I should just combine them :P
14:07<supermop>road termite
14:07<andythenorth>nml compiles per grf, then decompile with grfcodec, merge, recompile
14:07<supermop>set dependencies?
14:07<andythenorth>‘might have string issues'
14:17<supermop>hog road?
14:17<frosch123>what roadtypes do you want to add?
14:18<frosch123>maybe that gives a more descriptive name :)
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14:18<andythenorth>initially tram with and without catenary
14:18<@Rubidium>frosch123: airroad, waterroad and railroad?
14:18<andythenorth>thunder road?
14:18<@Rubidium>abbey road
14:18<supermop>thunder-less road
14:19<@Rubidium>rocky road
14:19<supermop>trolley wire
14:19<frosch123>sounds like you want something like "chips"
14:19<frosch123>maybe some "sauce"
14:19<frosch123>how about just "sauce"? :p
14:20<frosch123>roadvehicles can then be on the sauce
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14:20<@Rubidium>chips (en_GB) or chips (en_US)?
14:20<frosch123>chips the station set
14:21<@Rubidium>oh, even more meanings for the word... lovely
14:21<frosch123>maybe andy just wants vinegar
14:24<andythenorth>Rubidium: rocky road is not bad
14:24<andythenorth>but probably players will report that it’s not rocky
14:24<supermop>hog road
14:25<supermop>hmm name it "this road destroys all original trains"
14:25<supermop>orr "this road turns off inflation"
14:26*andythenorth should probably just call it “Trams_with_catenary+trams_without_catenary+normal_road_+private_industrial_road.grf
14:26<andythenorth>anything other than 100% literal is very dangerous when dealing with people
14:27<andythenorth>I should rename Iron Horse to “12 steam trains 12 diesel trains 8 electric trains 4 carriages 32 wagons”
14:27<andythenorth>but they’d need the intro dates and the stats and stuff too
14:28<supermop>"Andy Presents: Some trains for your consideration"
14:28<andythenorth>actually I’m probably being mean about people who are genuinely on the spectrum, which is not fair or good
14:28<supermop>"Andy Presents: some types of roads
14:29<supermop>minimalist / functionalist branding is all well and good
14:29<andythenorth>“box of bolts"
14:29<andythenorth>“2x4 finished pine”
14:31<andythenorth>“3 paintbrushes"
14:32<andythenorth>“Eating your termite since 2016"
14:33<andythenorth>supermop: can you make this grf? o_O
14:34<andythenorth>I have enough grfs :P
14:34<supermop>make as in name it?
14:34<supermop>repackage as private label and release it myself?
14:34<supermop>hmm last minute flight to memphis costs more than a computer
14:35<supermop>do you have to go to the airport to buy bereavement fares?
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14:36<supermop>supermop presents: Andy's GRF
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14:38<Wolf01>Got to go, more far away :P
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14:47<frosch123>it's fullmoon
14:48<andythenorth>ach it’s just a name
14:48<andythenorth>how about I just put the types in Road Hog, with a parameter?
14:48<andythenorth>do kittens die?
14:51<supermop>termite ate your kittens?
14:51<supermop>take other names from TTO song playlist titles?
14:53<andythenorth>what is the objection to providing the road/railtypes in the same grf as the vehicles?
14:54<supermop>seems contrary to best practices
14:54<andythenorth>‘best practice’
14:54<andythenorth>two words together I have learnt to distrust :D
14:54<supermop>someone might want to use your roads with HEQS but no RH,
14:54<supermop>or RH with someone else's roads
14:55<andythenorth>that’s ok, they can fork it :)
14:55<frosch123>andythenorth: you kill people's option to use a different track grf
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14:55<frosch123>it's a brand trap
14:56<frosch123>people may only use andy grfs
14:56<supermop>egrvts would be a good candidate too if Zepheris (sp?) pops up again
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14:56<supermop>at which point you should fork and support an andy only ottd
14:56<andythenorth>I would put the roadtypes on a parameter
14:56<andythenorth>it’s a valid use of parameter
14:56<supermop>too complex for some users
14:57<supermop>idk i generally prefer excess modularity
14:57<supermop>im sure it's fine for a test grf
14:57<supermop>but i dont know that it's best for the grf ecosystem long term
14:58<supermop>also i want to be able to load a road grf with no trolley wire at all, even if that means some of my RH trams get disabled
14:59<supermop>or a grf with no dirt roads, even if that disables my HEQs mining trucks
14:59<andythenorth>I think that more likely, most players never load termite or equivalent road grf
14:59<andythenorth>so the design of the sets is compromised in use
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15:00<supermop>andythenorth: people try to play FIRS with original vehicles too
15:00<drac_boy>I know this isn't exactly a good place to ask but any of you know if theres a particular term or not so much for these type of steam tenders that are part fixed and part articulated axles altogether?
15:01<supermop>are you going to include trains, RVs, ships and aircraft, into FIRS by default, to be turned off by parameter?
15:02<supermop>there is already precedent for newgrf features to fail silently due to lack of supporting grf
15:02<supermop>arguably, RH with steam trams running under wires is failing safer than Firs with no wagon to carry scrap metal etc
15:03<supermop>road hog
15:03<andythenorth>supermop: nah, but people know about industries
15:04<andythenorth>I could provide the FIRS industries and cargos separately
15:04<drac_boy>oh ok
15:04<andythenorth>but that would be…odd eh
15:04<supermop>andythenorth: i still see lots of posts about lack of wagon to carry X
15:04<drac_boy>either way this is what I meant re these type of tenders just in case anyone here does know
15:04<drac_boy>supermop one silly question, are these "carry X" cargos even defined by cargo class too? (not just cargo id alone)
15:04<andythenorth>but FIRS doesn’t modify the available industries and cargos due to lack of cargos
15:05<andythenorth>whereas Iron Horse removes trains due to lack of Termite
15:05<supermop>andythenorth: what i am saying is, iron horse works fine (no metros) with no track grf
15:05<andythenorth>drac_boy: that’s just a tender
15:05<supermop>road hog, all vehicles will work with default roads and tramways
15:05<supermop>steam tram still runs on powered tramway
15:06<andythenorth>some vehicles will be dropped
15:06<andythenorth>trams should be fine though
15:06<drac_boy>supermop same for 2cc and I think some another north america grf of some sort .. although it then makes it difficult to set up a low-distance high-capacity rail setup due to no matching locos (as they were all under the 3rdrail-only class)
15:06<supermop>drac_boy: i dont think original vehicles support cargo class
15:06<drac_boy>at least last I recall 2cc had its own grf to provide only 3rd rail if you didn't want to use the newrail grf that added it
15:06<andythenorth>drac_boy: it’s a centipede tender
15:07<drac_boy> many people even still use the original vehicle? I had thought they all moved onto the opengrf thing by now
15:07<andythenorth>no idea why I know that
15:07<andythenorth>everything you wanted to know about tenders
15:07<supermop>andythenorth: but there would still be a subset of trucks and buses that will run regardless of road grf
15:07<drac_boy>andythenorth ohhh centipede hm that makes sense, why didn't I think of that word before .. thanks a lot anyhow :P
15:07<@Alberth>euhm, 56km/h for a steel wagon?
15:08<supermop>drac_boy: lots of players, especially new players use original vehicles
15:08<@Alberth>me uses them too
15:08<supermop>because they may not know that new vehicles are needed or even that they exist
15:08<drac_boy>supermop does that not neglect the point of even providing the opengrf in first place?
15:08<@Alberth>nice and simple, not too much choice
15:08<drac_boy>I mean opengrf can be bundled with ottd .. while the original grf can't be
15:09<supermop>drac_boy: most people do not know that ogfx+ stuff exists
15:09<drac_boy>supermop so how did they even know ottd existed?
15:09<@Alberth>even if you bundle it with openttd, they wouldn't find it
15:09<supermop>i dont know, i found it years ago while searching online to figure out how to run TTO on XP
15:10<drac_boy>supermop..well... clicking on ottd gives you opengfx right away so I dunno what your point seem to be
15:10<@Alberth>even if you ever manage to solve the problem of a good criterium for selecting which newgrfs to add
15:10<supermop>patching the game to make original vehicles behave like ogfx+ vehicles is an option
15:11<supermop>but that violates the spirit of the game's primary mission
15:11<andythenorth>we’re having a ‘most people’ argument :)
15:11<andythenorth>and I started it
15:11<andythenorth>they never go well
15:11<supermop>andythenorth: this is all your fault
15:11<drac_boy>andythenorth either way just asking as haven't tried the grf but what is Termite?
15:11<@Alberth>and little animals too
15:11<andythenorth>it’s the tracks that are needed to make Iron Horse work
15:12<@Alberth>does that speed up steel wagon?
15:12<drac_boy>andythenorth oh ok..been a while since I last saw thread on that grf .. do you have a website for iron horse now or its still forum-only?
15:12<supermop>drac_boy: even though many of us here often play with some or many new grfs, philosophically, there is a goal of the OpenTTD project to provide a faithful clone of the original TTD experience
15:12<supermop>and that means including the original limitations where appropriate
15:13<supermop>the new grf system allows each of us to chose to what degree we want an 'original' or 'improved' experience on a per-game basis
15:13<drac_boy>supermop if its supposed to have original limit then why is there no option to have the original station cargo? or the vehicle limit? etc?? ;)
15:13<andythenorth>drac_boy: the docs aren’t 100% finished ^^
15:14<drac_boy>andythenorth ah nice, looking now to catch up ... brb :P
15:14<andythenorth>ignoring arguments about ‘most players’, which we can’t substantiate
15:14<andythenorth>the problems I have with making Yet Another GRF are:
15:14<supermop>drac_boy: you can set limit of vehicles to some low number if you want
15:14<andythenorth>- I have to get a devzone project, and setting up the repo never works
15:14<andythenorth>- I have to remember a new name to type in devzone
15:14<andythenorth>- I need another shell window and colour scheme for it
15:15<supermop>andythenorth: pay off someone else to do it for you
15:15<andythenorth>- I have to change the content for Yet Another GRF docs
15:15<andythenorth>- I have to make another release thread (I can’t even find the Termite thread) :P
15:15*andythenorth is just having a grumble
15:16<andythenorth>it’s inertia eh though?
15:16<andythenorth>another repo, another changelog, another python virtualenv, another compile and makefile to maintain
15:16<andythenorth>another grfid, bananas entry, bug tracker
15:16<supermop>andythenorth: go ahead and do a road hog roads grf now if you want - until nrt is in a x.y.z release it probably doesnt matter how proper it is
15:17<andythenorth>just for the perception of player choice, and a default state where some / most vehicles are not visible in the grf :)
15:17<andythenorth>let me finish my whining supermop :P
15:17<andythenorth>I get the costs, but not many benefits eh?
15:17<andythenorth>ok whining over
15:18<andythenorth>foobar made Termite
15:18<@Alberth>you get an excuse for much play testing :p
15:21<drac_boy>andythenorth hmm ironhorse does have some interesting locomotives across what I can see of two gauges with three different electric options
15:21<supermop>road grf name: ANDY - Andy Not interested in Doing this Yet
15:22<drac_boy>am I correct that Raven looks like the NER EF1 in uk?
15:22<supermop>drac_boy: yep
15:22<drac_boy>as I thought that body resembled the one pikka had
15:22<drac_boy>heh figured
15:22<supermop>iron horse is 'british-inspired'
15:22<andythenorth>and Irish
15:22<drac_boy>Little Bear .. that was a nice locomotive .. hobbled by the breech axe happening very shortly after production sadly :-s
15:23<supermop>with future plans to have by parameter 'Andes Inspired' and 'SAR inspired'
15:23<drac_boy>Cargo Sprinter looks like someone repainted the red Cargosprinter from germany tho? :->
15:23<supermop>I use the Little Bear almost everywhere
15:23<andythenorth>is it too boss?
15:24<supermop>no, the other locomotives are too boss
15:24<drac_boy>this anyhow
15:24<supermop>so a train 4 tiles or less doesn't need them
15:24<supermop>gridiron overkill for short freight
15:24<drac_boy>just curious tho .. what is Double Juice supposed to be relatively modelled after?
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15:25<andythenorth>drac_boy: yes cargo sprinter is a Windhoff
15:25<supermop>a high speed bi-mode locomotive
15:26<andythenorth>Double Juice is invented, but
15:26<andythenorth>and similar Vossloh and other electro-diesels
15:26<drac_boy>supermop heh ok..well tbh it may not be that fictitious if it was a 2015+ locomotive tho .. Today's Railway Europe magazine seem to keep talking about many new last-mile hybrid locomotives being contracted for or already in process of being certified
15:26<andythenorth>‘last mile’ diesel is in fashion
15:27<drac_boy>in somes cases eg Alstorm has one model that is either 100% electric .. or with a slight lower total output as to make room for a single genset in oen end of the same body
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15:28<drac_boy>andythenorth oh I almost forgot but did you know that Vossloh already sold off their railroad side of business somewhere last year? so no more vossloh-built locomotives for good
15:28*drac_boy read a column about that in the europe magazine
15:29<drac_boy>at least I think voith is still into the diesel transmission business tho
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15:31<drac_boy>andythenorth mind you I also know there were the electro-diesel locomotives on RhB but for some time now their diesel side had been used very little (probabably partially due to much more of the network being wired at this rate)
15:31<drac_boy>and yep swizterland ^
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15:32<drac_boy>heh heres an interesting photo...its under wire but still running on its diesel powerplant instead apparently :P
15:32<drac_boy>anyway thats enough from me about this little topic for now tho ;)
15:36<drac_boy>either way I hope you have fun with working more on Iron Horse if thats the case andy ;) (sorry about that I dunno if I'll ever play it tho? oh well!)
15:38<supermop>drac_boy: iron horse is great for quick games on small maps
15:38<supermop>not too complx
15:41<supermop>i've played it on 64x64 maps a lot
15:42<drac_boy>heh well last I checked I still only can have up to 3 railtypes so .. dunno which one would had to be left out .. to our own tho :)
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15:44<drac_boy>but anyway not to cut this too short but I need to afk for a bit .. might be back later or if not after supper then instead (its 15:45 now)
15:44<LordRyan>i'm playing openttd on arch but, after watching a playthrough, it's almost like half of the game settings are missing
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15:45<LordRyan> shouldn't there be at least two more submenus for vehicles?
15:49<supermop>sub menus for what?
15:51<LordRyan>supermop: this page here: -> <- shows two more submenus in `vehicles` as well as many other options, that I don't have.
15:52<supermop>hmm thats from 1.3.1, so i guess those setting got moved
15:53<supermop>i believe all of the 'max number of X vehicle' type setting got moved to the 'limitations' category
15:54<supermop>the acceleration settings would be under 'physics'
15:54<LordRyan>oh, looks like autorenew got moved to company
15:55<LordRyan>i guess i should start using the search bar more :P
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18:26<drac_boy>back like I said :) heh
18:27<drac_boy>so whos around this time?
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18:41<drac_boy>hm also just curious about it after looking at the Iron Horse before .. is there any particular restrictions on having something hosted on the devzone site?
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18:51<drac_boy>hi chomwitt, interesting name
18:52<drac_boy>you in greece?
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19:27<Eddi|zuHause>afair it should be openttd-related, and have an open-source license
19:28<drac_boy>hm well latter is probably easy .. as for former, I guess anything that doesn't depend on the few ttdxp-only game features probably could also fall under that too? :)
19:28<drac_boy>thanks anyhow
19:28<drac_boy><was just curious about it after all
19:31-!-chomwitt2 is "chomwitt" on #debian #debian-games
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19:31<chomwitt2>hi drac_boy
19:32<chomwitt2>you too
19:32<chomwitt2>yep from greece
19:33<drac_boy>connection issues? :) and I'm from canada .. was just curious when I saw *.gr
19:34<drac_boy>chomwitt and what do you think of your own country btw? considering that they've been in a lengthy bailout talk last I read any international news :-/
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19:41<drac_boy>anyway going off here sorry :-s
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20:02<lorran78>hello all
20:03<lorran78>can someone help me to make a grf with nml, i have already modify pnml but it seems i must use make to do it... and i don't know how
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20:11<chomwitt4>i think my country is in a 'economical fire zone' between EU-bank-elits and USA-IMF elits
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>could be worse...
20:11<Eddi|zuHause>you could be in aleppo
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20:15<chomwitt>that stinks
20:15<chomwitt>but i think citizens from russia and usa should go there first
20:15<chomwitt>i mean in aleppo
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20:17<lorran78>noone can help me? :(
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---Logclosed Thu Dec 15 00:00:18 2016