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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-17

---Logopened Sat Dec 17 00:00:21 2016
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04:37<peter1139>that thing then a nuget package targets .net 4.5.2 and you're using .net 4.5
04:37<peter1139>latest and greatest idiots :S
04:42<peter1139>that thing when you look at the source and it is because they are doing $"{nameof(bytes)}"
04:42<peter1139>which effectively results in the same thing as "bytes"
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05:28<peter1139>also turns out they're using classes not in my version of mono, so after fixing that shit it didn't work anyway :p
05:28<peter1139>fecking debian
05:28<Wolf01>Peter aged up again?
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06:04<Wolf01> andy :D
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06:13<andythenorth>Wolf01: one for ‘where is cat'
06:16<Wolf01>So far I believe that we did not find a simple, fun and fair solution. Ideas include: large power-up times(annoying and also weakens base defense); simply not allowing turrets to be build near biter bases (makes the player feel cheated); underground anti-turret worms (sugar-coated version of the previous idea). <- V453000, just introduce Dune's worms... so you'll even need to pavement your
06:16<Wolf01>whole base to stay safe XD
06:18<Wolf01>"I believe there is almost always an option to destroy bases without being forced to use turret-creep", yes, there is one very reliable, the ion cannon mod
06:28<@Alberth>allow tunneling, with plating to prevent that from being useful :)
06:29<Wolf01>Remembers me about Brotherhood of Nod engineers attack
06:30<Wolf01>Fill up 3-4 underground apcs with engineers and send them in the middle of the enemy base
06:31<Wolf01>That's why I always pavemented my base and make walled traps in the middle of the base for those fuckers :P
06:34<@Alberth>para=trooping from the air could work too, hard to defend against
06:35<Wolf01>You don't para-troop engineers usually, also there are SAM sites or AA guns, underground enemies can't be targeted instead
06:35<@Alberth>1st WW trench warfare in France involved lots of explosives :p
06:35<@Alberth>and tunneling
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08:55<JohnnyWing>Hello. So I'm a longtime player that's just been looking into contributing dev work...Am I right that there's no automated testing (unit tests) setup for the source?
08:55<frosch123>there is somewhat
08:56<JohnnyWing>OK. I come from a java background, the C's easy enough to pick up. What should I be looking at to see this?
08:56<frosch123>you can run "make regression" and it will start ottd, and run same game and ai scripts, which run stuff, and it compares the output
08:56<Wolf01>Which is functional testing and not unit testing
08:56<JohnnyWing>OK. anything that runs at buildtime?
08:56<Wolf01>I tried with unit tests but headers are a total mess
08:57<JohnnyWing>too much of a mess to mess with, or just a lot of work?
08:57<JohnnyWing>I ask because im a Testing SME with whatI do, and I'm interested in a challenge
08:57<Wolf01>If you want to give it a look, I preferred to avoid it
08:58<JohnnyWing>OK awesome. I'll look into the regression and go from there
08:59<peter1139>yeah it's not very... unitized
09:00<JohnnyWing>If....big if....If someone wanted to make the effort, it sounds like there would likely be refactoring to make it work. Maybe quite a bit from the sounds of it. Is such an effort something that the core team would be interested in having done and supporting?
09:01<JohnnyWing>I know that some projects dont care much about testing... and my goal would be to implement easy testing to enable changes to be made with confidence that they wont break the build
09:01<JohnnyWing>or would that just be too much?
09:01<@Alberth>you know the source is > 300K lines?
09:02<@Alberth>unit tests are likely to be bigger, I think?
09:02<JohnnyWing>Not much of a concern? Start small? again - would need analysis, unless it's already done
09:02<JohnnyWing>no no, unit breaks them into units, testing the smallest set of logic possible, in isolation from other things
09:03<@Alberth>core is very much optimized, not very unit-testable, I think
09:03<JohnnyWing>optimized for... performance, you mean, right?
09:03<@Alberth>yes, performance
09:03<peter1139>performance and memory use
09:04<peter1139>it's c++ written by c coders
09:05<Wolf01>In my case it's C++ written by VB/C# coder :P
09:05<JohnnyWing>Lol, I'm sure it's interesting then
09:06<peter1139>have a look
09:06<JohnnyWing>OK. I'm still curious to learn more so I'll do some looking around and see if there's any opportunities that make sense
09:06<peter1139>biggest issue is lots of stuff is intertwined and interdependent
09:06<@Alberth>muchos global variables :)
09:06<JohnnyWing>right and that's what I figured and where the refactoring that I mentioned was targeted at.
09:07<JohnnyWing>So, in a nutshell, I take existing legacy enterprise applications that are rather large and refactor them to enable automated testing and CI integration, so that enterprises dont have to be scared to change that legacy code any more.
09:08<JohnnyWing>This sounds like a very similar situation, hence the interest
09:08<JohnnyWing>and I've been playing ttd for 20 yrs, so it just seemed like a good match atm
09:08<@Alberth>refactor would be nice, if possible with a new feature :)
09:09<@Alberth>as refactor for refactor sake doesn't do much, and takes a lot of time, imho
09:10<JohnnyWing>right...and that's kinda my root question:
09:10<JohnnyWing>is a refactor to enable testing, by (this guy), one of those things that the team thinks is worth it? (again, if this guy does most/all the work)
09:11<@Alberth>I don't see the value of unit testing tbh, but that's just me
09:11<@Alberth>I do not speak for "the team"
09:11<@Alberth>in fact, "the team" doesn't exist
09:12<@Alberth>but have a look first
09:14<@Alberth>it's fine if you do something else than regular work :)
09:14<JohnnyWing>OK. and that's completely valid opinion. Most of my efforts are spent doing the work so I can show devs the value it provides. That's the fun part.
09:15<Wolf01>You could do some refactoring to better place some functions which are now spread over multiple files or in wrong places, I would start with that
09:15<JohnnyWing>when you say the team doesn't exist....that makes me want to ask for a synopsis of the project? It sounds not very active?
09:16<JohnnyWing>I looked at the roadmap and flyspray and found nothing. No roadmap, very informal, user contribution-based, likely?
09:17<JohnnyWing>@Wolf I'll look in that direction
09:18<peter1139>hmm, did we ever get multistop for docks?
09:18<Wolf01>The cat guy asked me to get into docks after nrt
09:18<peter1139>well i have a partial patch for it already
09:19<Wolf01>Missing the movement part?
09:20<peter1139>iirc it was mostly working
09:20<peter1139>hmm, resizing the ottd window is buggy
09:20<Wolf01>I would like to get into the vehicle movement code to provide some more features in that branch
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09:21<peter1139>how can window resize be buggy? :S
09:21<Wolf01>Roundabouts and ramps for roads, realistic locks, real grf airports
09:21<Wolf01>Bigger road stops
09:21<JohnnyWing>sounds fun
09:22<frosch123>JohnnyWing: development is mostly stalled. main issue seems to be that there are many kind of conflicting features in existence, and every new feature has to account for serval corner cases. but since noone uses all of the conflicting features, noone is interested in caring for the corner cases
09:23<JohnnyWing>ouch. So...scope creep finally took over and is winning...damn
09:23<JohnnyWing>Has there been any efforts to develop a plan to overcome it and make decisions on those things needed to get out of this situation?
09:24<JohnnyWing>sounds like no, its just kinda stopped.
09:24<frosch123>the main effort is to fork and make those features work which you use :)
09:24<JohnnyWing>that kinda makes me sad for the game tho :/
09:25<JohnnyWing>but I get it, dont get me wrong
09:25<frosch123>the main branch is now mostly about extending the add-on format
09:26<JohnnyWing>OK. so really then, theres the engine, then a bunch of mods that plugin to it. Core dev ensures that the mod system works and nothing else break?
09:26<Wolf01>Almost like that
09:26<JohnnyWing>but it sounds like the module that should be like the core logic and such (or default logic), is kinda embedded withint he engine and not yet extracted to a mod style component?
09:26<JohnnyWing>pretty much?
09:28<peter1139>everything is core logic
09:28<SpComb>just forget about OpenTTD and re-implement all of the game logic as a Cities: Skylines mod
09:29<frosch123>SpComb: you mean as a factorio mod
09:29<JohnnyWing>would be cool to see both
09:30<Eddi|zuHause>just make a factorio mod that runs cities skylines (or vice versa)
09:30<peter1139>to allow multiple docks per station, i need to touch pathfinding, station and ship handling code.
09:30<JohnnyWing>what do you mean that everything is core logic? There should be engine code and business logic separated. They're currently intertwined, yes? Is that what you're saying?
09:31<JohnnyWing>Also, I'm not sure that I saw anything to the effect, but methinks that some post on/near the front page of the dev wiki regarding the current state of developement and the project would be super helpful. A lot of what I'm hearing now conflicts with the impression I got from the wiki
09:31<Eddi|zuHause>separating them only makes sense if they're also developed separately
09:32<Eddi|zuHause>otherwise you're just adding development overhead for no benefit
09:34<peter1139>cool 2 year old patch applies with minimal fixing
09:34<JohnnyWing>separation of concerns and such?
09:34<JohnnyWing>easier changes?
09:34<Wolf01>The problem is that noone knows the entire thing to be the "right one" to write such article, a group of people can do it, but those should be the "core" devs, and I think they don't have enough time or will to do even that work
09:34<JohnnyWing>Wolf - helpful. thanks
09:35<JohnnyWing>but makes me a little more sad
09:35<JohnnyWing>However, I thank all you guys for the work thus far.
09:35<peter1139>tbh i support it
09:35<peter1139>but i don't know where you'd start, what you'd do, what you'd achieve
09:36<Wolf01>As you notice, we aren't so organized, and the project has blown up in these years so it's really big to be handled right now, we do what we can
09:36<JohnnyWing>I played back when it had just started....i've taken 2-5 years off several times but always come back to it. It's amazing to see those years' features come in big chunks like that :)
09:36<peter1139>and it is a game. within the core logic there is less of a concept of "this should do exactly this"
09:36<Wolf01>I'd support it too, because refactoring for unit test would mean also more readable code
09:37<Wolf01>*readable = understandable
09:37<JohnnyWing>aye, readable/understandable/maintanable/testable/scalable/etc.
09:37<JohnnyWing>Sounds like the "architect" role has been missing for a while and now it's just big and....big.
09:38<Wolf01>Read it as "crooked house"
09:39<SpComb>JohnnyWing: you also have to know that the source code was originally reverse-engineered from a 1990s game engine written by a single guy in assembler
09:39<Wolf01>For example frosch123 has shown me some things, like we have a function which asserts when there are certain conditions and the same function which shouldn't assert on the same contitions but return false/invalid, as asserts are our current way to intercept weirdness whyle using a functionality
09:40<SpComb>well, I haven't looked at the code for ages, but I would guess that you still see a lot of that in there :)
09:40<Wolf01>One example is "GetRoadBits" which asserts if there is no road, "GetAnyRoadBits" instead returns ROADBITS_NONE
09:40<Wolf01>But they do the same
09:40<JohnnyWing>Sp - yea...I remember that. I always wanted to get involved, but never was smart enough yet.
09:41<JohnnyWing>Gotcha. tons of technical debt & inconsistencies
09:41<Wolf01>I find that really confusing :P
09:41<JohnnyWing>my problem is that when I run into inconsistencies like that, I've got to fix them.
09:41<JohnnyWing>It tends to make my projects pretty big efforts :/
09:41<Wolf01>You should fix them later
09:42<JohnnyWing>but im OCD like that...therefore I'm a code quality guy
09:42<JohnnyWing>lol. yep
09:43<Wolf01>I'm the same type too, I start from changing a light bulb and find myself repairing the car's engine
09:43<JohnnyWing>damn that suspect looking wire...
09:45<JohnnyWing>anyways. Does anyone know of a wiki page or category within flyspray or (whatever I need to know) that is a log of things like this technical debt that needs cleaned up? I'd much rather focus on that, even if it's futile, than feature dev/bug fixes.
09:45<JohnnyWing>If there's nothing, I can whip something up and go from there
09:45<Eddi|zuHause>a code quality guy has probably been missing here for a while (*cough*tron*cough*) but at the end, someone has to actually do the work of restructuring the code
09:46<frosch123>JohnnyWing: it's mostly about removing global variables
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think there's a comprehensive list of technical debt, but you probably quickly find some if you prod the right people or read the right forum threads
09:47<Eddi|zuHause>but you'll quickly need to narrow down what area you want to touch
09:47<JohnnyWing>Alrighty. Good info to work from.
09:47<frosch123>JohnnyWing: last week we encountered a bug, where function parameters are passed via global variables, and are then messed up when the function recurses
09:48<JohnnyWing>I'll be around. I'd rather not go off and work in a silo.
09:48<frosch123> <- JohnnyWing: that is a work-around for the bug. the real fix would involve to remove Start/Stop/Rewind/Pause/Resume-TextRefStackUsage
09:49<JohnnyWing>awesome. Is there an issue logged for it?
09:49<frosch123>and to pass it directly to FormatString are calling functions
09:49<JohnnyWing>which leads me to another question, Who's the webmaster(s)?
09:51<Wolf01>Mmmh, I think that transport fever has some incompatibility with whatsapp web
09:51<Wolf01>It starts to drop the framerate only when I open the whatsapp web page
09:51<Wolf01>I could do anything else and works like a charm
09:56<frosch123>JohnnyWing: <- use that newgrf to start a game. <- the bug is that that 53250 should be a 8
09:56<JohnnyWing>@frosch Fantastic. ty
09:58<JohnnyWing>I've added a question to the Development FAQ asking what the state of the project is. I don't want to mix words, so I ask anyone willing to contribute to it to drop an update -
09:58<frosch123>JohnnyWing: just in case, there are hg and git repositories for ottd, which you can clone
09:58<frosch123>"svn" is not used for branch development
09:59<JohnnyWing>Yea....I work in git....the svn thing is new to me (tho I know it's old). I came away from the wiki guides without a clear understanding of what source I should be using for what.
09:59<JohnnyWing>so I pulled svn, but I'll go back to the others
10:01<frosch123>clone from git:// or
10:01<JohnnyWing>ty ty
10:01<JohnnyWing>is there a documented branching strategy?
10:02<frosch123>no, in the end everything is put into svn, at which point the branch information is lost
10:02<JohnnyWing>Sorry...i know I'm asking for a lot....but just want to get a clear picture
10:05*peter1139 ponders dabbling with stupid size RSA keys
10:06<@Alberth>sounds like a good cargo to transport :)
10:06<JohnnyWing>I see a stat on the wiki.... does anyone know when this happened? "Note: About 975 commits were lost when the old svn system crashed and was lost."
10:07<@Alberth>before rev 1
10:07<@Alberth>ie rev1 is what was salvaged :)
10:08<frosch123>JohnnyWing: 2004/2005
10:08<frosch123>@commit 1
10:08<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Commit by truelight :: r1 / (202 files in 13 dirs) (2004-08-09 19:04:08 +0200 )
10:08<@DorpsGek>frosch123: Import of revision 975 of old (crashed) SVN
10:09<frosch123>it started in march iirc, so about 5 months were lost
10:09<frosch123>well, not the work, but the history :)
10:09<JohnnyWing>oh ok
10:11<peter1139>if only we had git back then
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10:18<peter1139>takes a while to generate 8192 bit keys
10:19<peter1139>starts getting slow to decrypt too
10:24<JohnnyWing>Oh. I found the issue :P
10:25*peter1139 tries 16384 now
10:27<Wolf01>JohnnyWing, too many objectives? :P
10:27<JohnnyWing>Aye. Hard to focus when you don't know what you're shooting for :)
10:28<JohnnyWing>and that's a very very broad scope listed there right now haha
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10:29<peter1139>one persons stagnant and dead is another persons complete
10:35<frosch123>JohnnyWing: there are at least three groups of interest wrt. game features: 1. micromanagement like conditonal orders, refitting and loading. 2. automated economy like cargodist. 3. model railway sandbox
10:35<Wolf01>I'm for the last one :P
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10:37<JohnnyWing>so 3 game modes. Check
10:38<frosch123>maybe competitive is a 4th, but i don't get those people
10:38<JohnnyWing>to each their own, eh?
10:39<JohnnyWing>Does competitive, though, violate on of the 3 objectives?
10:39<JohnnyWing>Provide a game that is free from war themes and conflict; hence suitable for all age groups
10:39<JohnnyWing>conflict is arguable :)
10:39<frosch123>1. and 2. result in a lot of conflicting features
10:42<frosch123>3 and 4 add insane requests for very complicated stuff, which for me always sounds like "how stuff is supposed to be" instead of "fun"
10:42<frosch123>i.e. 3. and 4. are socially complicated, and 1. and 2 are technically complicated :p
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10:51<JohnnyWing>haha all of that makes sense.
10:51<JohnnyWing>They really do sound like different game modes or different games entirely, where the features can be isolated from the others
11:01<frosch123>except that different game modes or games would not offer the greyscale inbetween :)
11:02<peter1139>you could have options for everything
11:02<peter1139>and then offer another advanced settings window for all the options
11:03<peter1139>and another option to hide certain options which are deemed more advanced
11:04<frosch123>we have hidden options to show other hidden options
11:07<JohnnyWing>Yea. I could see it working out, but it'd have to be intentionally designed for such a scheme
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 17 11:31:20 2016
---Logopened Sat Dec 17 11:31:28 2016
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11:31<lorran78>i am still searching for help to make new grf (actually i always make same grf with different pnml :/
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12:27<slaca>hi guys, I just realised on, that i have not the latest opengfx, i have 0.5.2. but i see there is 0.5.4. Why is that can't be seen in the content dowload?
12:30<frosch123>likely because someone was busy and then forgot to publish it
12:32<slaca>ok, so it should work with 1.6.1 openttd?
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13:16<Wolf01> used a station to create a zig-zag
13:18<Wolf01>andythenorth, bad news for lego, they will raise prices in UK from january :(
13:19<frosch123>quick, stockpile!
13:19<andythenorth>brexit means brexit eh
13:19<andythenorth>at least I got my country back
13:20<peter1139>red white & blue
13:20<frosch123>roadtype compatibility works now btw.
13:20<frosch123>i've also added npf and yapf
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13:45*andythenorth pulls
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27697 /trunk/src/lang (spanish.txt unfinished/urdu.txt) (2016-12-17 19:45:36 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>urdu: 9 changes by siphr
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish: 3 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:49<andythenorth>frosch123: compatibilit works :D
13:50<andythenorth>tried making some invalid orders and such
13:50<andythenorth>all ok
13:51<frosch123>it's all a bit crashy
13:51<frosch123>when we fix the regression and the tram dropdown, we should make a test game or so
13:51<frosch123>earlier a random starting ai showed me that you could no longer build rail bridges :p
13:53<andythenorth>I should patch Road Hog and let players loose on it
13:53<andythenorth>can’t today, child #2 birthday
13:53<andythenorth>much parenting to do
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13:58<JohnnyWing>I'm looking at gfx.cpp. The DrawString method and many others have comments stating to see "DoDrawString() for details". Does anyone know if this method still exists and where? I can't seem to find it.
14:00<frosch123>i guess DrawLayoutLine is its predecessor
14:00<frosch123>no, successor
14:01<frosch123>no idea why that function should tell anything about colours though
14:02<frosch123>anyway, DoDrawStrings was once in gfx.cpp
14:04<frosch123>in r15000 DoDrawString refers to the comment which is now at the TextColour enum
14:04<frosch123>so, i guess that DoDrawString reference can just be dropped :)
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14:27<andythenorth>eh so what road types shall I add?
14:27<andythenorth>tram, electrified tram
14:27<andythenorth>normal road
14:27<andythenorth>and ???
14:27<Wolf01>Non-electrified tram
14:27<Wolf01>Dirt road
14:51<andythenorth>no trolleybus in this roster, but maybe in another
14:51<andythenorth>also trolley trucks
14:57<andythenorth>this steel mill is very TTD-ish
15:00<V453000>because it's small? :D
15:02<andythenorth>so this steel mill stuff, that’s dirt road too?
15:02<andythenorth>I want to call it something like ‘heavy haul road’
15:05<Wolf01>But you can also run normal rvs on them, just make it with a low speed limit, 20kmh should be enough
15:06<andythenorth>nah I’m making them exclusive :)
15:06<andythenorth>the speed limit thing is weird
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15:44<andythenorth>what’s the deal with compatibility between tram and road?
15:44<andythenorth>any tram can be built over any road?
15:57<lorran78>someone can tell me how to use make program?
16:00<andythenorth>what’s your starting point? (which OS, and do you have gcc?)
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16:18<lorran78>sorry i was afk
16:19<lorran78>i change pnml file to add introduction_date for all trains
16:20<lorran78>i dl nml program and used it using "nml opengfx+trains.nml" but i always compile the same grf without changes...
16:20<andythenorth>so you have a shell?
16:20*andythenorth assumes that because you can use nml
16:20<lorran78>yes i have dos window :p
16:21<andythenorth>do you have gcc?
16:22<lorran78>yes i dl something like that wait a sec
16:23<lorran78>i have mingw
16:23<lorran78>someone advise me this prog
16:23<lorran78>but i don't know how to use it
16:23<andythenorth>ok :D I have no idea what’s next with mingw
16:23<andythenorth>what happens if you type ‘make’ in the dos prompt?
16:23<lorran78>i test wait
16:23<andythenorth>any error?
16:23<lorran78>not recognisez
16:24<lorran78>not recognised
16:24<lorran78>i can use gcc tell me where to find it
16:24<andythenorth>ach no idea :)
16:25*andythenorth looking if someone documented this for newgrf
16:25<lorran78>i want to play but i can't :((
16:26<andythenorth>you pretty much need all of that, on windows, as far as I understand it
16:28<lorran78>okay i am reading :p
16:29*Wolf01 nods...
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16:40<andythenorth>lorran78: those instructions might be outdated about python2.7
16:41<andythenorth>I use python 3 for my newgrf stuff, nml was ported to python 3 some time ago
16:41<andythenorth>not sure how it works for the windows nml though
16:51<andythenorth>hmm maybe it’s just a specific script that uses it, nothing to do with nml perhaps
16:52<andythenorth>oh FFS
16:52<andythenorth>I broke my road-hog repo
16:53<andythenorth>I need to stop using hg, I’m incompetent
16:53*andythenorth -> bed
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19:08<lorran78>i installed all tools to compile
19:09<lorran78>how can i use make with makefile from the grf source?
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19:46<lorran78>i have that error with "make --makefile=(file)" ->"/bin/bash: cc: command not found"
19:52<+glx>means it didn't find cc.exe
19:52<+glx>I think you can edit makefile to use gcc instead
19:57<lorran78>oh i see :p
19:58<+glx>and usually "make" should be enough, unless your makefile is not "makefile"
19:58<lorran78>hum how can i recognise the line with cc error?
20:00<+glx>I guess it's around .pnml stuff
20:00<+glx>gcc is used to preprocess
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20:12<lorran78>it's in a pnml you mean or in makefile where pnml is written?
20:14<lorran78>after that error i have "make: *** [mynewgrf.nml] Error 127"
20:15<+glx>I'm not a nml specialist, maybe ask tomorrow when they are awake
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20:17<lorran78>hum okay :)
20:18<lorran78>i have a strange question now :p
20:19<lorran78>is it possible to put the item transmiter (non destructible item) in the construction item (to prevent some place from industries arrival)
20:19<lorran78>and so make it destructible :p
20:19<+glx>you can buy land
20:20<lorran78>and then destroy things?
20:20<lorran78>even non destructible?
20:21<+glx>I can't remember if magic bulldozer can remove undestructible stuff
20:22<lorran78>magic bulldozer haha :p
20:23<+glx>but it's highly recommended to only have it activated on paused game :)
20:23<+glx> <-- with pictures
20:24<lorran78>cool :p
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20:24<lorran78>how put this in game?
20:24<lorran78>grf too?
20:24<+glx>top of the page in second link
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20:26<lorran78>then maybe it will be easier to cheat to back in time lol
20:26<lorran78>and then have the first train :p
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20:55<lorran78>i was kicked ? :)
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21:00<+glx>no, when you are kicked you know it
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 18 00:00:22 2016