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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-18

---Logopened Sun Dec 18 00:00:22 2016
00:24-!-chomwitt3 is "chomwitt" on #debian #debian-games
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00:53-!-tokai is "Christian Rosentreter" on #openttd
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02:07-!-sla_ro|master is "slamaster" on @#sla #openttd #love
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02:56-!-andythenorth is "Andy" on #openttd
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03:02-!-Alberth is "purple" on #openttd
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03:05<andythenorth>lo Alberth
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04:12<andythenorth>coop jenkins hates me :)
04:12<andythenorth>I have pushed a branch that I know won’t build there
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04:17<lorran78>hello Alberth :p
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04:20<lorran78>i have almost done my new grf from opengfx+ trains, i installed all tools to compile a new nml but now i have problem with using "make" it says "cc" not found something like that
04:21<andythenorth>paste the error?
04:21<lorran78>don't know where change cc to gcc someone told me to do that
04:21<lorran78>okay wait
04:21<@Alberth> windows?
04:22<@Alberth>oh, maybe it works anyway.. try CC=gcc make
04:23<lorran78>i am compiling :p
04:23<lorran78>lol seems the space in the folder was a prob
04:23<lorran78>even with " "
04:23<lorran78>maybe ok now it's processing
04:24<@Alberth>yeah, filenames with spaces are confusing, don't know why people do that
04:24<lorran78>juste "my documents" :p
04:24<lorran78>because i put the whole folder
04:24<lorran78>is it normal it doesn't use cache anymore?
04:25<@Alberth>it's still confusing, if you list the contents at a console you get "my" "documents"
04:25<@Alberth>now do you have 2 files or just one?
04:25<@Alberth>nope :)
04:26<lorran78>make --makefile=makefile then it seems the command "nmlc opengfx+trains.nml" automatic
04:27<lorran78>and it's longer because it doesn't use cache anymore
04:27<lorran78>processing... i hope it will be ok
04:30<@Alberth>have a tea or coffee while you let the machine compute
04:35<andythenorth>it _should_ use the nml cache after the first run
04:35<andythenorth>which is faster
04:36<andythenorth>there are some notes about make being slow under mingw also
04:36<andythenorth>no known solution
04:37<lorran78>yes but not this time the cache
04:37<lorran78>but !
04:37<lorran78>i have my first grf i think :p
04:37<lorran78>i go test :p
04:38<lorran78>make made me a folder with the new grf inside
04:38<lorran78>and the grf and a tar file
04:39<lorran78>my changes don't work :(
04:39<lorran78>but the grf is not same size
04:40<@Alberth>sure you don't load the old one?
04:40<@Alberth>run openttd with -d grf=4
04:41<@Alberth>gives a dump of where it finds/loads grfs
04:41<@Alberth>you may want to save output to a file :)
04:41<lorran78>should i remove the old nml file in the folder?
04:42<lorran78>i saw no new nml was created is it normal?
04:42<@Alberth>nml doesn't matter, openttd doesn't know nml
04:42<lorran78>but make prog?
04:42<@Alberth>oh, make checks if one of its sources has changed, if not, it skips rebuilding the same file again
04:43<@Alberth>but it's safe to either 'touch' one source file, or delete the destination file
04:43<@Alberth>make will rebuild it
04:44<@Alberth>you can ask make why it skips things, but output is usually too long to read :)
04:45<andythenorth>@seen frosch123
04:45<@DorpsGek>andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 14 hours, 35 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
04:45<@Alberth>it's not even afternoon yet!
04:46<andythenorth>14 hours is plenty of sleeping time :)
04:48<lorran78>if i delete the nml file then i have error
04:48<lorran78>[CPP] ogfx-trains.nml /bin/bash: cc: command not found make: *** [ogfx-trains.nml] Error 127
04:48<@Alberth>sounds about right
04:49<lorran78>but it's not my nml only my pnml :p
04:49<lorran78>nevermind or something wrong?
04:49<@Alberth>it concluded it needs to run the C pre-preprocessor again to construct the nml file from its *.pnml sources
04:49<@Alberth>except you don't have a 'cc' for that
04:49<@Alberth>does CC=gcc make --makefile=makefile work?
04:50<@Alberth>CC=gcc basically says "for cc, use gcc"
04:50<lorran78>it's strange when i have the original nml file there is no more "cc" error
04:50<@Alberth>no it's not
04:50<@Alberth>it checks time stamps of all *.pnml files
04:51<@Alberth>it checks timestamp of the destination .nml
04:51<@Alberth>if the latter is younger than all the former, it skips building the nml
04:51<lorran78>oh okay
04:51<@Alberth>and never reaches the point of needing cc
04:52<lorran78>but i deleted the pnml which was near the nml
04:52<lorran78>ogfx-trains.pnml(something like that)
04:52<lorran78>now it used the cache
04:53<@Alberth>no doubt make looked for a way to create that file again, and failed
04:54<@Alberth>maybe it pulled the file from the VCS :)
04:56<lorran78>hum i downloaded all grf from online content and i can't find them
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04:56<@Alberth>all grf? that's pretty useless
04:56<lorran78>where are the downloaded grf?
04:56<@Alberth>you likely only need a few
04:57<lorran78>yes i know i wanted to test something :p
04:57<@Alberth>don't know where they are at windows, but the README file of OpenTTD can tell you
04:57<lorran78>maybe i take the original grf i want to move them somewhere else
04:58<@Alberth>if you changed grfid, you should not have a problem with existing other grfs
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04:58<@Alberth>unless there is a conflict in IDs
04:59<lorran78>i made my own id :p
04:59<lorran78>wait i check
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04:59-!-efess is "afsd" on #openttdcoop #openttd #/r/openttd
04:59<@Alberth>ok, so does it show up if you select it in the newgrf window?
04:59<lorran78>yes i changed to MZ+0
05:00<lorran78>i think i select my own but don't know how to be sure
05:01<lorran78>tell me if my changes are ok to introduce the train before the original date
05:01<lorran78>item(FEAT_TRAINS, kirbypaul) { property { sprite_id: SPRITE_ID_NEW_TRAIN; // We have our own sprite misc_flags: bitmask(TRAIN_FLAG_FLIP, TRAIN_FLAG_2CC); introduction_date: date(1, 1, 1); } graphics { default: kirbypaul_default_indepot_switch; purchase: kirbypaul_default_switch_gui; } }
05:02<@Alberth>use a pastebin, like
05:02<lorran78>oh yes here it's weird
05:04<@Alberth>you can try a less drastic change first, like 1975 instead of 1925
05:05<@Alberth>hmm, you don't make a copy first?
05:06<lorran78>i want to start on year 0 :p
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05:07<lorran78>i add 100 year between all trains but no train works
05:07<Wolf01>"When I open a particular page in the browser the game fps drops" "change browser"...
05:08<@Alberth>"When I open a browser, it eats 2GB memory"
05:09<Wolf01>I have 16GB for that :P
05:09<@Alberth>lorran78: well, first have something that works at all, I think :)
05:09<Wolf01>Game's rendering is broken as shit (transport fever fyi)
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05:12<andythenorth>Alberth: if game had ’Tram’ and ‘Electric Tram’…what would ‘Tram’ refer to? o_O
05:14<@Alberth>I'd pick the former, but I very much rely on proper naming of things
05:14<andythenorth>in UK most trams would be electric by default
05:15<@Alberth>I can see some room for confusion there :p
05:15<andythenorth>tram kind of means ‘electric’
05:15<andythenorth>but ‘Non-Electric Tram’ is ugly
05:15<@Alberth>steam tram?
05:15<@Alberth>ie, it's also not "Non-maglev train"
05:16<@Alberth>Non-diesel-electric-monorail-maglev train
05:16<Wolf01>Tram is the standard tram
05:16<andythenorth>‘Self-Propelled Tram’?
05:16<Wolf01>Standard OTTD tram
05:16<Wolf01>Electric, with catenary
05:17<andythenorth>try it for yourself :)
05:17<Wolf01>It's the same problem about elrail
05:17<andythenorth>isn’t it just
05:17<Wolf01>At the beginning we had electric trains running on normal rails
05:18<Wolf01>Then catenary popped out
05:18<@Alberth>implementing that was a mistake :)
05:18<Wolf01>Now we started with catenary, then no-catenary popped out
05:19<Wolf01>The right solution would have been to make catenary as infrastructure and not as another rail/road type
05:22<andythenorth>that ship sailed :)
05:22<andythenorth>it may or may not have been electric :P
05:24<Wolf01>I tried to make it non-electric, so the electric one had to be added with grf, but frosh changed it again to electric to not break compatibility/graphics with existing grfs
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05:29-!-chomwitt3 is "chomwitt" on #debian #debian-games
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05:45<andythenorth>that means we need some way to refer to unpowered tramway
05:45<andythenorth>“UNTR” :P
05:46<@Alberth>POTT (plain old tram tracks)
05:51<Wolf01> stupid idiots
05:57<Wolf01> also, sometimes closing OTTD (with the "X" button) while debugging it gives this error, it started to do it about a week ago and happened just one or two times after every build... should I change the web browser?
05:57<__ln__>other than that, is transport fever a good game, worth the 25€?
05:58<Wolf01>No, not worth 25€
05:58<Wolf01>15€ maybe
05:58<Wolf01>It is a nice game
06:00<Wolf01>It lacks many features even to make it work (for example you can only give load orders, no leave empty), maintainance works by replacing the whole consists, no min bank balance to autoreplace, capacities fucked up and mods try to make them worse
06:00<andythenorth>early days
06:00*andythenorth would have tried something different than 3D reimplementation of Transport Tycoon
06:01<andythenorth>Factorio is more ‘interesting’ than Train Fever, even though I won’t play it
06:01<Wolf01>Train fever, as transport fever is just a train fever with ships and aircrafts, had some of these bug fixed, like the terrain filling half of the tunnel entrances
06:02<__ln__>the plural of aircraft is aircraft unless you work in the airplane industry
06:03<Wolf01>Oh, really?
06:03<__ln__>yeah, really
06:05<Wolf01>I always used aircraft as synonym of airplane
06:06*andythenorth ponders a better OpenTTD
06:06<andythenorth>something like:
06:06<andythenorth>- all vehicles inherently moddable in game by player (as a type, not individually)
06:06<andythenorth>- not much focus on cities or landscape
06:07<andythenorth>- optional ‘drive the vehicles’ stupid mode
06:07<Wolf01>You want a puzzle game?
06:07<andythenorth>- voxels
06:07<andythenorth>I had the idea before I saw Scrap Mechanic, but eh, something like Scrap Mechanic, but with a fleet of vehicles, and goals
06:08<andythenorth>Scrap Mechanic + Euro Truck Simulator + Transport Tycoon
06:10<Wolf01>That looks nice
06:11<andythenorth>X + Y + Z is the worst way to explain any creative concept, ever :D
06:11<__ln__>Wolf01: an aircraft can be a helicopter or a balloon
06:15<Wolf01>Yes, all bops are flytz and all flytz are zops, but not all zops are bops
06:16<lorran78>sorry i was afk eating :p
06:20<andythenorth>eh so the roads I want in Hog are probably not the dirt roads some people envisage
06:20<andythenorth>should I use HAUL? :P
06:20<Wolf01>Maybe is better
06:22<andythenorth>the local milk truck is not allowed on a haul road
06:23<andythenorth>300t trucks doing 45mph don’t mix with small types
06:27<Wolf01>Totally truck's fault, it's always truck's fault
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06:27-!-Wormnest is "Wormnest" on #msys2 #mingw-w64 #openttd #gcc
06:29<lorran78>re :)
06:32<lorran78>i can't find all downloaded grf from inside ottd :/
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06:43<lorran78>found !
06:43<lorran78>i am now sure that i test my grf and the first train is always in 1925
06:43<lorran78>what have i done wrong?
06:49<lorran78>i tested 1935 for the kirby but it's same windows first vehicule in 1925...
06:49<lorran78>my command should work or not in the pnml?
06:58<@Alberth>pnml is collected into nml
06:58<@Alberth>open the nml file to check
06:58<@Alberth>I'd say the change is not working, something else is needed
06:59<@Alberth>unfortunately, I have no idea what, you need someone that understand newgrfs and/or nml better
06:59<lorran78>hum okay :)
06:59<lorran78>suppose noone here can help?
06:59<andythenorth>there will be an nml file somewhere
06:59<andythenorth>compiled from the pnml
07:00<andythenorth>open that, and search for ‘1935’
07:00<lorran78>if i have good memory alberth told me that there was no "introduction_date" in the pnml
07:00<lorran78>it must be added
07:00<lorran78>so i can't find it
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: you need to install all of MinGW, not just "make"...
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07:01<lorran78>hum? all?
07:01<lorran78>i checked base for mingw and msys base too
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>you need the compiler
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>or at least the preprocessor of the compiler
07:02<lorran78>ok then i check what?
07:02<Eddi|zuHause>and it must be in your path
07:03<lorran78>i put all in path
07:03<lorran78>like explain here :
07:06<lorran78>eddi ?
07:07<lorran78>i must check all in mingw then?
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: no, it's probably not in your PATH
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>check at the end of that page under "common errors"
07:12<lorran78>i am reading and reading and i don't see what is wrong :/
07:15<lorran78>i think the cc command is the problem
07:15<lorran78>if i delete the nml it is missing
07:16<lorran78>what line must i change to use gcc and not cc?
07:19<Eddi|zuHause>what happens when you type "gcc -v" at the bash prompt?
07:21<lorran78>i test
07:21<lorran78>work good
07:22<lorran78>should i let the pnml which is not in src folder?
07:22<Eddi|zuHause>and when you type "cc -v"?
07:22<lorran78>not found
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>then try "CC=gcc make"
07:23<andythenorth>frosch123: if you want less crap test grf
07:23<andythenorth>currently splits trams / electric trams
07:23<Eddi|zuHause>(note that capital C are important)
07:23<andythenorth>although that might need rethinking w.r.t label and name
07:24<lorran78>in dos prompt?
07:24<lorran78>not possible "CC=gcc make"
07:24<Eddi|zuHause>no, in bash
07:24<lorran78>launch waiting :p
07:30<lorran78>i have new nml !
07:30<lorran78>i test if it's ok :p
07:31<lorran78>strange mine is smaller with all my new commands :)
07:31<lorran78>i launch make --makefile makefile now for the grf
07:33<lorran78>works !!!!!!!!!!!!!
07:34<lorran78>i must use bash to use gcc when cc is usefull?
07:37<lorran78>i had questions
07:37<lorran78>is there a size limit for the cities?
07:38<@Alberth>all tiles of the map?
07:39<lorran78>and is there a way to build non destructible buildings (i don't really want to use cheat code to destroy industries)
07:39<lorran78>maybe? :)
07:40<@Alberth>I don't understand how "build" and "destroy" can be combined like that :)
07:41<lorran78>build transmiter (i think it's the name in english version)
07:41<lorran78>or lighthouse
07:41<@Alberth>at least in the scenario editor
07:41<@Alberth>in-game, I don't know
07:41<lorran78>okay :)
07:42<@Alberth>but you can build objects if you load an object grf
07:42<lorran78>and i found a grf to modify industries mechanic
07:42<lorran78>but it doesn't work :/
07:43<@Alberth>never heard of it
07:43<lorran78>it does nothing
07:43<lorran78>hum ok
07:43<@Alberth>unlikely :p
07:44<@Alberth>there is FIRS, ECS, and Yeti as alternative industry sets
07:44<andythenorth>and manual industries, SPI, and Oz Industries
07:44<andythenorth>and PBI
07:44<@Alberth>and opengfx+industries
07:44<andythenorth>wow, industry sets we have :D
07:45<andythenorth>canadian industries also :P
07:46<andythenorth>“Haul Road” or “Heavy Haul Road”?
07:46<andythenorth>the shorter one is used IRL, but longer more obvious to player?
07:50<Wolf01>Remind me to spin off you grf :)
07:51<andythenorth>ho NRT types show in main toolbar menu even if no vehicles :)
07:54<Wolf01>We know
07:54<Wolf01>I should fix that, report a bug XD
07:56<andythenorth>if we tell players where the RATT build is, and where the bug tracker is
07:56<andythenorth>we can avoid that work :P :)
07:57*andythenorth thinks santa claus might bring a forum post
08:00<Wolf01>I'm not sure about that
08:01<Wolf01>I don't want suddenly people trying to make grfs with no specs and then blame us because something changed
08:03<frosch123>yay, regression no longer crashes. but there is still a different result for some bridge construction
08:04<Wolf01>frosch123, about the default tram, shouldn't we hardcode 2 different trams, one w/o catenary and one with?
08:05<frosch123>same for road then?
08:05<frosch123>ROAD ELRD TRAM ELTM
08:05<Wolf01>I think not, we don't have ELRD currently
08:06<frosch123>we also do not have TRAM then
08:06<andythenorth>Wolf01: don’t tell them where the nml fork is :)
08:06<Wolf01>But we have TRAM vehicles mixed with ELTM
08:06<Wolf01>Like the early ELRL
08:06<frosch123>default ottd has no trams at all :p
08:07<frosch123>Wolf01: there is no way to fix existing grfs, so what do you try to achieve?
08:07<andythenorth>if it’s TRAM and ELTM then ROAD and ELRD are entailed I think
08:07<Wolf01>But we have existing grfs :P
08:07<Wolf01>Eh, nothing :P
08:07<andythenorth>urgh, I changed ELTM to ELTR because I kept mistyping it
08:07<andythenorth>ELTRM doesn’t compile :P
08:07<Wolf01>Just I find ugly to have ELTM as default
08:08<Wolf01>andythenorth, label is 32 bit, 8 bits per char.. 4?
08:09<frosch123> <- it should be somewhat consistent with railtypes :)
08:10<frosch123>one could also call it DFLT and ELEC
08:10<frosch123>same labels for road and tram subtypes
08:10<frosch123>but meh
08:11<andythenorth>it’s just a reference eh :)
08:11<andythenorth>whatever it is needs to be easy to type
08:11*andythenorth wondered about CATT (catenary tram)
08:12<frosch123>anyway, exisiting tram grfs should default to electrified tram track
08:12<frosch123>people can always toggle the transparency setting if they hate catenary
08:13<Eddi|zuHause>yes, electric tram should be just "TRAM"
08:13<frosch123>no, that's stupid
08:13<frosch123>what would non-electrified tram then be?
08:14<Eddi|zuHause>well, let me rephrase that... if ANYTHING should be "TRAM", then it should be electric tram
08:14<andythenorth>no TRAM? o_O
08:14<__ln__>what about an electrified tram that doesn't have catenary?
08:15<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: that would be WTRM (weird tram)
08:15<Wolf01>Third rail tram
08:16<__ln__>no, not third rail
08:16<__ln__>for the record, the tram in Sevilla:
08:16<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i think there's a tram in belgium that only uses the two rails for power
08:16<andythenorth>there’s one in Bordeaux that switches
08:16<andythenorth>catenary / underground rail
08:16<frosch123>btw. it is not required that all labels contain "RD" or "TM"
08:16<Wolf01>I never paid attention, but in some cities we use that too
08:16<frosch123>we already know that the labels refer to road or tram :)
08:17<Wolf01>What about removing "EL*" totally and place catenary as infrastructure? (also on railroad)
08:17<Eddi|zuHause>there were also some tests with induction, where you basically have the third rail underground
08:18<Wolf01>Grfs might define if catenary can be built later, or not built at all, and what's the aspect
08:18<frosch123>Wolf01: that fails just on the next door with 3rd rail and voltage levels and whatever stuff
08:18<__ln__>the tram in Sevilla is battery-powered on a portion of its route
08:18<frosch123>we already tried separate catenary, and it failed
08:18<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i fear that digs too dep into already existing infrastructure/UI
08:19<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: but that doesn't need a new tracktype...
08:19<frosch123>also it does not fix anything about the label problem
08:19<andythenorth>that’s just ‘powered'
08:20<Wolf01>I started roadtypes with that idea in mind, that was the "catenary flag" which got removed
08:20<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: i guess not, but it needs a tram type which needs to have catenary on some parts of the route.
08:20<frosch123>it merely adds another label for catenary type
08:20<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i think a flag falls short... you need new bits for catenary type and catenary trackbits
08:21<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: because people will want to differentiate 25kV AC, 15kV AC, 3kV DC, ...
08:21<Wolf01>Yes, in my implementation the entire tile was powered regardless of bits (or better the same track bits)
08:22<Eddi|zuHause>(not that there are any 25kV trams)
08:23*andythenorth is confused
08:23<__ln__>(are you sure?)
08:23<andythenorth>we just need two labels eh? :D
08:23<frosch123>yep :)
08:23<andythenorth>steam trams look silly with catenary up
08:24<lorran78>anyway thx for help i am happy because it works :p
08:24<Wolf01>Also steam trains running on elrails
08:26<andythenorth>frosch123: it’s light rail eh? Can I just use ‘RAIL’ and ‘ELRL’? :) :P
08:27<frosch123>i like that :)
08:28<Wolf01>At least until you start making road+rail grfs
08:28<Wolf01>If that's will even be possible
08:28<andythenorth>then that whole tedious bunfight about labels is mostly done already
08:28<andythenorth>and nobody has to ‘quit the community’ over labels :P
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08:29<frosch123>most labels abbreviate "RAIL" with "R", which also works for "ROAD" :)
08:30<andythenorth>'narrow gauge road’
08:30<frosch123>happens a lot
08:30<frosch123>not navigateable by articulated vehicles
08:31<Wolf01>I'm still expecting canalroad/wetroad
08:32<andythenorth>electric canal
08:32<frosch123>canal is cominable with overhead-tram
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08:38<andythenorth>so I should change RH to use RAIL and ELRL eh?
08:39<frosch123>ROAD, ELRD, RAIL, ELRL ?
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09:25<Wolf01>I've been staring at VS for 1 hour...
09:26<frosch123>maybe listen to AS for the next hour then
09:28<Wolf01>Time to do somethinh, like fixing non-drive-through roadstops or disabling building menu if no vehicle has been found
09:28<frosch123>pull before you do that
09:29<frosch123>i think i did both :p
09:31<Wolf01>Ok, there's still this one:
09:32<Wolf01>Missing a diagdir somewhere
09:32<frosch123>you need to check the command callback for that
09:32<frosch123>it likely extracts the direction from p1 and p2, which got changed
09:35<Wolf01>Let's try changing a random 6 to a 3
09:36<Wolf01>Seem to work
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09:53<andythenorth>so eh
09:53<andythenorth>how do I make some vehicles compatible to both ROAD and HAUL?
09:53<Wolf01>Mmmh, why I can't merge from ratt? It says it's already up to date... how it can be?
09:53<andythenorth>I have to define a third type, which provides the compatibility?
09:54<Wolf01>Or define HAUL as compatible with road?
09:54<frosch123>it depends whether all HAUL vehicles are compatible, or just one
09:54<Wolf01>But you don't want milk delivery trucks to run on it
09:54<andythenorth>HAUL vehicles are HAUL only
09:54<andythenorth>ROAD vehicles are ROAD only
09:54<andythenorth>but Supplies Trucks can go on both
09:55<frosch123>OFFR then
09:55<andythenorth>ok, and I don’t need to define that as an actual type?
09:55<andythenorth>just put it in the relevant compatibility props?
09:55<Wolf01>I'm still of the idea ROAD vehs are compatible with all types (mainly for compatibility), maybe not for wetroads
09:56<andythenorth>no schoolbuses on my mining road :P
09:56<andythenorth>maybe I miss something, dunno
09:56<Wolf01>And if I want to build a school near the mine?
09:56<frosch123>i am not entirely sure :)
09:58<Wolf01>Also I want roads traversable only for certain vehicles, like only buses but no freight vehicles
09:59<andythenorth>I never did understand railtypes compatibility :D
09:59<Wolf01>So I'll shit them on all the cities to keep trucks outside
09:59<andythenorth>oh like a city truck ban? o_O
09:59*andythenorth considered something like that before
09:59<andythenorth>I thought it might be too restrictive to be fun, but yeah
09:59<andythenorth>no trucks in towns
09:59<andythenorth>would be a thing
09:59<Wolf01>I hate when 40+ trucks pile up behing a bus
10:00<andythenorth>not sure how it would be done
10:00<Wolf01>Neither do I
10:00<andythenorth>ideally, persuade towns to build a dedicated town roadtype :P
10:00<Wolf01>With dynamite?
10:01<Wolf01>Most of my towns don't even own their roads :P
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10:01<frosch123>so that would enforce servicing shops and bank by helicopter?
10:02<Wolf01>Maybe you can just leave *some* roads to be used
10:02<Wolf01>But not every single road
10:03<andythenorth>exception for town trucks
10:04<Wolf01>Define town trucks
10:04<andythenorth>mail, armoured, food, building materials, goods, beer
10:04<Wolf01>Eh.. and if I make a goods truck with a 300t one?
10:05<Wolf01>Max speed 12kmh
10:07<Wolf01>The problem might be when an industry near the town will be eaten as the town grows, but since it's you which make "no-truck" roads, it's your fault if you wall in the industry
10:08<Wolf01>I would give a look on 4 lanes roads, sure it will break all the graphics and might need transition tiles for other roadtypes
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10:12<Wolf01>Ok, synced the convert-road branch
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10:13<andythenorth>compatibility breaks my brain
10:13<andythenorth>I’m sure Eddi explained to me once that it isn’t possible
10:17<Wolf01>Yes, I know -> TODO: check for roadtype compatibility
10:18<andythenorth>I have NFI how to have a vehicle that can go on multiple labels
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10:18<andythenorth>as vehicle compatibility is defined by the type, not by the vehicle
10:18<andythenorth>so I have to define some ‘universal’ road or something
10:21<Wolf01>frosch123, did you remove the "compatible_roadtypes" variable?
10:22<Wolf01>I mean from RoadTypeInfo
10:23<andythenorth>uses powered instead
10:23<andythenorth>they’re synonymous for RVs as there are no unpowered wagons
10:24<Wolf01>So I only check if the new roadtype will be powered?
10:25<Wolf01>Unpow->pow yes; pow->pow yes; pow->unpow no
10:25<Wolf01>Third-rail -> catenary?
10:25<Wolf01>Or the contrary
10:35<andythenorth>dunno :)
10:35<andythenorth>don’t understand :)
10:36<andythenorth>the railtypes compatibility spec is…'interesting'
10:36<andythenorth>it looks like something that was designed by very clever people
10:37<andythenorth>I wish they were still around to explain it to us :)
10:38<andythenorth>peter1139: how do railtypes work then? o_O
10:47<frosch123>so, do we have a list of real use cases?
10:48<frosch123>i only read about use-cases which have some corner case where it does not work :p
10:49<peter1139>they don't work
10:49<peter1139>tron did it
10:49<peter1139>(so they do work, but only tron understands it)
10:50<Wolf01>Let's hunt for tron :D
10:50<andythenorth>frosch123: 1. roadtype specifying no other compatible types [works]
10:50<andythenorth>2. roadtype specifying some other compatible types [so RAIL trams work on ELRL, for example] [works]
10:51<andythenorth>3. vehicle that is mutually compatible between otherwise incompatible type [can’t see how to do that]
10:51<peter1139>andythenorth, iirc the compatibility stuff works backward to how you'd expect
10:52<andythenorth>ass backward
10:52<peter1139>i certainly remember getting confused when dealing with it
10:52<andythenorth>it’s built for rocket scientists
10:52<andythenorth>the railtype specificies the behaviour of the vehicles
10:52<andythenorth>which is super logical, but just not intuitive
10:53<Wolf01>Btw... I'm now able to convert: 1. *->red; 2. [normal, yellow]->blue; 3. *->yellow... no [*]->normal
10:55<Wolf01>I think some road was defined as electric even if it doesn't have the catenary
10:55<Wolf01>Or I might have switched the checks
10:56<andythenorth>I’m 99% certain that case 3 (vehicles compatible between 2 otherwise incompatible types) can’t be done
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10:56<andythenorth>I’m sure Eddi|zuHause explained that it’s why we can’t have mixed gauge trains
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>we can have mixed gauge trains if you define a mixed gauge railtype
10:58<Eddi|zuHause>the railtype says which vehicles it's compatible with, not the vehicle says which railtypes it's compatible with
10:58<Wolf01>Ok, switching the checks, *->road, [yellow, red]->blue, [blue, red]->yellow, yellow->red
10:59<Wolf01>So it was better before
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11:01<andythenorth>so how would I define a vehicle compatible with HAUL and ROAD?
11:01<andythenorth>when HAUL and ROAD are not compatible
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>you can't. either you make HAUL compatible with ROAD (one way or the other) or you define a mixed type...
11:02<Eddi|zuHause>a vehicle only has exactly one roadtype. the roadtypes then discuss amongst themselves whether to allow that vehicle on them, based on that one type.
11:04<andythenorth>ok so that is what it is
11:04<andythenorth>I’ll stop trying to implement it
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>what would occasionally be useful is that two articulated parts could have different POWERED type
11:05<Eddi|zuHause>(not COMPATIBLE)
11:05<Wolf01>Not our case
11:06<Wolf01>At least if someone finds a way to make a trolleybus with a diesel engine too
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>so you could make like electric/diesel hybrid vehicles, or something
11:06<Wolf01>*articulated trolleybus
11:06<Eddi|zuHause>currently articulated parts must have the exact same type
11:07<Eddi|zuHause>(or it's actually ignored, not sure)
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11:16<peter1139>iirc power is ignored for articulated parts
11:23<andythenorth>it is for RVs definitely
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11:27<andythenorth>so I need two kinds of supplies truck, and transfers
11:30<frosch123>i think in your case i would use ROAD, OFFR, HAUL
11:31<frosch123>ROAD is normal road, OFFR is trails, HAUL is specifically designed for heavy vehicles
11:31<frosch123>OFFR vehicles can drive on all three
11:31<frosch123>ROAD and HAUL vehicles can only drive on themself
11:31<andythenorth>works, but puts a type in the build menu I don’t otherwise need or want :)
11:32<andythenorth>I think the solution is to drop the idea of multi-compatible supplies trucks
11:32<frosch123>i thought trails were the main usecase :p
11:32<andythenorth>in 2008 :)
11:32<andythenorth>‘now we have experience’ :P
11:33<frosch123>anyway, i am not sure how the introduction works yet
11:33<frosch123>can a rv be available without the tracktype being available yet?
11:34<Wolf01><andythenorth> works, but puts a type in the build menu I don’t otherwise need or want :) <- only if you define a roadtype grf, not with just vehicles... btw, if you load a vehicle grf with no specific roadtype defined, what could happen? Defaults to ROAD?
11:34<andythenorth>defaults to ROAD
11:34<andythenorth>that’s tested in Road Hog
11:35<andythenorth>if I wanted an OFFR type, I’d have to define a buildable OFFR type, simply adding a label to table + vehicles doesn’t work
11:36<andythenorth>powered (compatibility) list is for a different thing, so that’s no use
11:36<andythenorth>and fallback is for a different thing also
11:36<andythenorth>this use case is not essential, and I worry it’s a bit of a misleading rabbit hole :)
11:37<andythenorth>frosch123: from docs I can’t understand which has priority, vehicle introduction or tracktype introduction
11:38<frosch123>i would also have to read railtype docs :)
11:38<frosch123>and then probably create a chart like
11:40<andythenorth>burn it all with fire :)
11:42<frosch123>anyway, you can now have separate (global) hotkeys for building tram
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11:43<andythenorth>that is more important than it might sound
11:43*andythenorth needs some haul road sprites
11:43<frosch123>isn't it just grey stone?
11:45<andythenorth>American Roads dirt roads will do
11:45<andythenorth>for now
11:45<andythenorth>I think ‘not brown’ is probably better in a future version
11:46<andythenorth>oh, they’re all integrated with the terrain :P
11:46<andythenorth>I’ll draw soem
11:47<Wolf01>Also pedestrian roads would be cool, they should disable any other feature than building road :P
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11:49<frosch123>Wolf01: you can do that with the oneway stuff
11:49<frosch123>it also allows noway
11:49<Wolf01>But it's ugly
11:50<Wolf01> <- I mean something like this
11:54<Wolf01>I'll do pedestrians as vehicles
11:54<andythenorth>I wondered :)
11:54<Wolf01>Which could use any other road and transport 1 goods
11:54<Wolf01>Or 1 food
11:55<Wolf01>Not 2 because the other hand is bus with the smartphone
11:56<Wolf01>Pedestrian which can carry pax would be too weird :D
11:57<andythenorth>so trams without catenary eh
11:58<andythenorth>I will need some more sprites
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12:29<andythenorth>do we need a disable_[types] list?
12:29<andythenorth>oh nvm
12:29*andythenorth being stupid
12:45<andythenorth>frosch123, Wolf01
12:45<andythenorth>updated, adds a second road type and some vehicles for it
12:45<andythenorth>also corrected some strings, and changed some labels
12:58<Wolf01>Btw, it's not clear you have to bridge/tunnel a ROAD to cross it with the HAUL one
12:58<Wolf01>Building roadbits on ROAD when building HAUL should be forbidden
12:59<andythenorth>do we need to do that in newgrf, or in ottd?
12:59*andythenorth wonders how much more nml patching is left
13:00<andythenorth>I haven’t tested the callbacks (haven’t even looked at them) :P
13:00<frosch123>when adding roadbits with a different type, it needs to pick the more-compatible roadtype, or reject it completely
13:00<frosch123>as for ail
13:00<frosch123>rail + elrail -> elrail, elrail + rail -> elrail, rail + mono -> reject
13:00*andythenorth wonders if nml needs tests adding for these types
13:01<frosch123>nml needs to learn some more roadtypeflags, otherwise it is done
13:01<andythenorth>the railtype test (008) is pretty sparse eh?
13:01<frosch123>the yellow/red stuff is already good
13:02<andythenorth>once nml is done, we could merge the fork?
13:02<andythenorth>currently I’ve broken the jenkins build of RH, as it needs forked nml
13:02<frosch123>it needs some review
13:02<frosch123>same for ottd
13:02<frosch123>every now and then there is a mixup of basetype and subtype
13:02<frosch123>or some negation
13:02<frosch123>many of the fixes are actually adding or removing "!"
13:03<frosch123>also i am a fan of vcs history that tells you something more than trial and error :)
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13:05<andythenorth>wouldn’t we just bin the current commits, and make a new set of patches for nml?
13:05<andythenorth>seems cleaner
13:06<andythenorth>got Road Vehicle twice :)
13:07<andythenorth>don’t _think_ that’s in the grf
13:08<frosch123>you likely forgot to set a name
13:08<frosch123>so it took the default
13:08<andythenorth>I’ve only defined one roadtype
13:08<andythenorth>the Heavy Haul Road
13:08<andythenorth>and two tramtypes
13:09*andythenorth experiments
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27698 /trunk/src/lang (russian.txt spanish.txt) (2016-12-18 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish: 3 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian: 3 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:55<_dp_>hi! can a newgrf disable railtypes in other grf?
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14:10<Eddi|zuHause>no, you can only disable the other grf
14:11<Eddi|zuHause>which is a total dick move, btw.
14:13<_dp_>My only objective is to configure server the way I want it, so I have an easier way of disabling grfs
14:14<Wolf01>Check if the other grf has parameters
14:15<_dp_>It has one, but it's not the one I want :(
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>best way to configure server grfs is to upload a savegame which you set up and checked locally
14:16<_dp_>then I won't be able to generate more games with same settings
14:16<_dp_>besides I can't even do it locally
14:22<Wolf01>I usually configure the server locally then upload the config, so I can generate new games
14:24<_dp_>I have a nice web interface for configuring servers
14:24<Wolf01>I don't
14:24<_dp_>Sadly it just seems impossible to do what I want in any way
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14:50<Eddi|zuHause>you can save the savegame's newgrf config as a preset, to use in other games
14:55<_dp_>whatever, I know how to configure servers :p
14:56<_dp_>I don't know how to disable railtypes :(
14:56<Wolf01>You can't
14:56<_dp_>I can even disable engines, but it won't help here because nuts have universal engines
14:57<Wolf01>Maybe if you just say what you want exactly someone could work it out...
14:58<_dp_>exactly I want to disable normal rail types in nuts and leave only purr rails)
14:58<Wolf01>V453000, ping
14:59<_dp_>In general though I want to create some cool christmas setup and that was just one of ideas for it...
15:09<Wolf01>Read last lines
15:09<V453000>disable railtypes, why?
15:09<V453000>running out of IDs?
15:10<Wolf01>Because "why not?"
15:11<_dp_>several reasons
15:12<V453000>nuts will definitely get at least one more update eventually
15:12<_dp_>most important one is that I don't undestand why are they even there)
15:12<V453000>so if you give me reasons I might consider them
15:12<_dp_>and they are cheaper so you have to use them for start and then go through all the hassle of replacing them
15:13<V453000>well having an universal rail is generally useful
15:13<V453000>having colours is just nice
15:13<_dp_>also they use different background in my setup for some reason
15:13<V453000>and can be interesting for specific setups
15:13<V453000>different background?
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15:14<_dp_>yeah, wait a sec I'll set it up on a server
15:17*andythenorth wonders how FIRS works
15:19<_dp_>V453000, check citymania test server
15:20<_dp_>normal raitypes use default climate ground
15:20<_dp_>while purr ones use grf background (that I want)
15:20<V453000>sounds like non nuts issue but let's see
15:21<_dp_>mb but still
15:21<_dp_>in fact I may even be able to fix it by changing some sprites
15:37<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: i think your best approach here is to modify the grf to your needs, and then get permission to distribute it
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15:52<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, mb... but I still hope there is smth better)
15:52*andythenorth deletes things
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15:53<_dp_>for now I'm stuck on installing nmlc though :(
15:55<_dp_>best I got so far is that in installs fine and then can't find ply
15:55<_dp_>which I think I have for all possible python versions
15:55<andythenorth>what OS?
15:55<andythenorth>using pip?
15:56<andythenorth>got a virtualenv?
15:56<_dp_>or mb not, I think I installed in with
15:56<_dp_>pip failed on egg with some weird error
15:57<andythenorth>frigging python packaging :)
15:57<andythenorth>substitute [python] for any other popular language also
15:57<_dp_>virtualenv didn't work either
15:57<andythenorth>FWIW, I use a virtualenv (for isolation of the rest of my system from localised setuptools crap)
15:58<andythenorth>and then I pip install ply for python 3.2
15:58<Eddi|zuHause>shouldn't you use pillow nowadays?
15:58<andythenorth>I am not going to remove it and test it though, as setuptools are flakey
15:58<andythenorth>ply is the lexer
15:59<andythenorth>_dp_: could always do a manual install :(
15:59<_dp_>nvm, just installed it in virtualenv
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16:00<_dp_>first time I tried have some files created under root so was getting permission errors
16:00<andythenorth>I always use virtualenv, it just prevents installs for one project crapping all over another project
16:01<_dp_>yeah, I'm usually using it too, just got confused when it suddenly required root permissions
16:01<andythenorth>ach are dates a word or dword? :P
16:01<andythenorth>(in ottd)
16:02*andythenorth doing text stack stuff again
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16:03*_dp_ "hello world" time
16:05<lorran78>rehello :p
16:06<lorran78>i wanted to know if industries can pop on a object item other than original item (transmiter and lighthouse)
16:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: surely the wiki knows that...
16:19<peter1139>hmm, odd
16:19<peter1139>my multistop docks works
16:19<peter1139>must be an edge-case issue which i don't remember
16:22<andythenorth>you couldn’t figure out how/where to make ships wait?
16:22<andythenorth>afaik, it was ‘mostly done’ but something boring needed doing
16:22<andythenorth>and boring is boring
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16:28<__ln__>so... if one of the german states decided to declare independence, what would happen?
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16:36<peter1139>nah it had path finding issues
16:36<peter1139>but i don't remember what
16:36<peter1139>possibly something to do with the dock tile not actually be traversible
16:39<andythenorth>multistop docks would be…better
16:40<andythenorth>or at least different
16:40<peter1139>they solve some issues
16:40<peter1139>i wasn't intending on making ships solid at any point though
16:40<andythenorth>not needed
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16:41<andythenorth>pathfinding nightmare, they’d always be trying to avoid each other on :P
16:55*Wolf01 hands andythenorth a cookie
16:55<andythenorth>is a commit? o_O
16:55<Wolf01>No, german cookies from lidl
16:56<Wolf01>They are good
16:56<peter1139>lebkurchen eh
16:56<Wolf01>Captain Rondo
16:58<Wolf01>The vanilla ones are pure drugs, I ate 8 before punching myself and hide the packet
16:59<__ln__>i don't recall such brand
16:59<Wolf01>There's a pirate girl on the packet
17:00<__ln__>gotta look next time i shop at lidl
17:00*andythenorth must bed
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17:02<__ln__>probably too tasty to import to finland
17:07<Wolf01>They'll keep you at diet?
17:07<_dp_>can I replace one base sprite with other base sprite in newgrf?)
17:07<_dp_>like put snow instead of grass
17:07<V453000>_dp_: yes
17:07<V453000>replaces base tiles
17:08<__ln__>can't even buy lipton ice tea or nestea pratically anywhere here :/
17:10<Wolf01>I'll bring you some crates if I'll come here
17:10<_dp_>V453000, yeah, but you're replacing them with custom ones
17:10<__ln__>Wolf01: thanks in advance
17:10<_dp_>V453000, and I don't want to make custom spritesheet, just use another sprite from the game
17:11<V453000>not sure how would one go about that
17:11<V453000>but why would you utterly break the rails to show as landscape_
17:14<_dp_>break rails? dunno, for now I'm just trying to replace grass)
17:14<_dp_>like toyland temperate replacement does, but it uses custom sprites
17:17<_dp_>V453000, btw, about railtypes, can I override NUTS engines from other grf and replace allowed railtypes to disable them on normal rails?
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: maybe look at how alpinew.grf replaces the arctic grass with temperate grass?
17:20<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: it may be more involved than you think to find all the instances, though...
17:22<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: and yes, you can change the properties of vehicles from other grfs, if you set the flag that your grf is an addon to that other grf
17:23<Eddi|zuHause>note that you can't override callbacks and stuff, you'd need to reimplement the whole graphics block
17:23<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, looks like alpinew does the same thing, at least it contains a huge spritesheet
17:23<_dp_>Eddi|zuHause, cool, I'll try replacing them, ty
17:24<V453000>I think all of nuts trains are defining important things by callbacks
17:24<V453000>and stuff
17:24<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: the sprites are mostly snowy roofs and stuff
17:25<V453000>I dont understand your problem _dp_ to be honest
17:25<V453000>you have broken terrain/rails and instead of overriding the rails with railtypes, you are trying to fuck up the rest
17:25<Eddi|zuHause>ah. i suppose it actually does copy the original sprites
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>and not reuse the base sprites
17:26<Eddi|zuHause>there might actually be a way, but probably it'd need to be a bit more hacky
17:27<Lejving>V453000, I can't msg you
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>_dp_: well, i guess at this point you might just need to make it properly, making a railtype and using the underlay
17:27<V453000>how do I do -g then "D
17:27<V453000>or join channel #V453000
17:27<Eddi|zuHause>/mode nick -g?
17:28<_dp_>V453000, I'm just trying various ideas, not specifically solving that bg problem
17:29<_dp_>V453000, for example, I like some ideas in NUTS and graphics, but there is too much redundant stuff imo, would be nice to simplify it
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17:30<V453000>I agree, I plan another train set
17:30<V453000>if you make a fork, I won't hate it probably :)
17:33<_dp_>I'd like to find some better ways of customizing grf than just forking them left and right)
17:34<_dp_>besides, I can't even clone nuts repo, is it ridiculously large?
17:39<_dp_>rofl, run out of disk space cloning it
17:40<Wolf01>"And just to be sure he can be the only one to edit it, he set up a raid 5 with 4TB hard disks"
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18:17<_dp_>what happens when two newgrfs define same rail type?
18:18<_dp_>with different compatible railtypes
18:21<lorran78>i am testing if industries are created on objects but 10 years passed and no new lol
18:21<lorran78>even with normal tile
18:21<lorran78>what are the conditions to make creation of new indust?
18:22<lorran78>oh sorry new indust :p
18:22<_dp_>lorran78, you mean for them to spawn naturally?
18:24<_dp_>lorran78, it tries to maintain certain industry density, so there wouldn't be much spawns unless some idustries start to close
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18:24<_dp_>lorran78, you can try to create map with low density and increase it in game, that should encourage it to spawn more I think
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18:27*_dp_ finally made a grf that actually does smth
18:28<_dp_>it even kind of disabling rail by setting its price to 660k/piece)
18:35<lorran78>yes i made map with no indust just one city
18:36<lorran78>just for testing this
18:39<lorran78>it seems industr can't pop on objects like beach (newgrf)
18:40<lorran78>when i create a map it's impossible to make large selection to make beach
18:40<lorran78>i must do tile by tile
18:41<lorran78>nope can pop on beach :(
18:54<lorran78>but it seems indust can't pop on non-plane surface :)
19:04<Redirect_Left>Is there a way to get the distance betwee X tile and Y tile? (or specifically, airport to airport?)
19:05<Redirect_Left>I'm trying to get the cheapest plane (as in, only just manages the range rather than some obscenely over-costly one for that distance)
19:07<Redirect_Left>I'm currently just dragging a bridge from X to (approximate distance in a draggable direction), but i'm assuming there is a better way of doing that?
19:07<_dp_>Redirect_Left, there are ruler tools in modded clients like citymania or btpro one
19:08<_dp_>Redirect_Left, but in vanilla I think it's only by checking coordinates and calculating yourself
19:09<Redirect_Left>I'm using JGRs patchpack, so i'll go and read his thread and if its not noticeable in the 'patch notes' i may suggest something similar is added!
19:10<lorran78>which industries set has the most indust between cities
19:10<_dp_>Redirect_Left, yeah, JGR is likely to have it too
19:10<lorran78>not only mail passenger and goods
19:10<Redirect_Left>ah yes, he has included a copy of
19:12<Redirect_Left>I'd have never have found that button (or guessed its meaning) without looking it up, cheers for that
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23:40<JohnnyWing>Is the github repo perhaps behind or not maintained? It doesn't compile when I pull it down...missing files :?
23:40<JohnnyWing> that is
23:41<Supercheese>might be some extras you need
23:41<Supercheese>stuff like this:
23:41<Supercheese>check the wiki for compilation guides
23:41<JohnnyWing>No I've got all that. I got it working via svn, but this git....
23:42<JohnnyWing>im missing files. Like this .h doesn't exist, yet it's imported.... #include "table/strings.h"
23:43<JohnnyWing>granted I'm new to cpp so may be missing some concept
---Logclosed Sun Dec 18 23:50:14 2016
---Logopened Sun Dec 18 23:50:19 2016
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---Logclosed Sun Dec 18 23:57:19 2016
---Logopened Sun Dec 18 23:57:26 2016
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---Logclosed Mon Dec 19 00:00:23 2016