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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-20

---Logopened Tue Dec 20 00:00:25 2016
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02:25<dihedral>hi
02:26<__ln__>gm, d
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05:20<@Alberth>o/
05:20<Wolf01>o/
05:20<Wolf01>I read about some shit happened yesterday :(
05:21<@Alberth>in the news? indeed :(
05:28<dihedral>perhaps kenedey can repeat itself
06:06<V453000>jesus fucking christ
06:06<V453000>again?
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06:27*ZirconiumX blows dust off OFTC login
06:28<ZirconiumX>LordAro, you around?
06:29<LordAro>occasionally
06:29*LordAro waves
06:29<ZirconiumX>Been a while, hasn't it?
06:30<LordAro>indeed so
06:30<ZirconiumX>Still, I remembered this place!
06:30<ZirconiumX>And even ~~not so secretly~~ named a chess program in honor of old DorpsGek
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06:37<peter1139>hi
06:38<ZirconiumX>o/
06:38<dihedral>hi peter
06:38<__ln__>hi, peter-increased-by-one
06:39<dihedral>oh, __ln__ ;-)
06:39<dihedral>you did it ... again
06:49<__ln__>thanks
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07:06<ZirconiumX>o/
07:07<frosch123>hoi
07:07<ZirconiumX>Been a while.
07:08<Wolf01>Quak, o/
07:08<ZirconiumX>Wolves don't quack :p
07:09<Wolf01>They don't type with keyboards too :P
07:10<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pvr6tv039?/pvr6tv039 <- am i missing something? or is _introduced_railtypes completely pointless?
07:10<ZirconiumX>Eh, I dunno
07:10<@Alberth>:O you CAN use a keyboard to hit a letter at another keyboard :p
07:11<ZirconiumX>Hi Alberth
07:11<@Alberth>o/
07:12<Wolf01>frosch123, seem so
07:12<frosch123>it was added in r21842
07:12<frosch123>it looks like it tries to optimise something, but i think it only triggers if all 16 railtypes are available
07:12<frosch123>i.e. never if not all railtypes are actually defined
07:13<@Alberth>:)
07:13<ZirconiumX>Not much of an optimisation then
07:13<@Alberth>given the wide definition of the data, it's probably for the best to remove it :)
07:18<frosch123>ah, it actually sets the never-introduced types at line 61 in the diff
07:19<frosch123>so it kind of does work, but it still appears pointless
07:35<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27700 trunk/src/engine.cpp (2016-12-20 13:35:36 +0100 )
07:35<@DorpsGek>-Codechange: Simplify railtype date introduction. A check that is safe to run every day before the last railtype has been introduced, is also safe to run after the last railtype has been introduced.
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08:29<Eddi|zuHause>and todays earworm is presented by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2W_G3xmSGfo
08:30<ZirconiumX>Oh, hi Eddi!
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09:37<supermop_>good morning
09:37<supermop_>let's hope today is a bit nicer
09:38<ZirconiumX>Morning
09:41<supermop_>i guess i should stop replying in this forum thread...
09:51<Eddi|zuHause>well, statistically, if you have one attack, there's going to be more for a while. it's like earthquakes and aftershocks
09:57<supermop_>i was planning to buy a new plain black suit this winter but now i feel it would be in bad taste
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10:04<supermop_>maybe i will buy this puzzle for my in-laws to work on over christmas: https://www.aplusrstore.com/product/2228/gradient-puzzle
10:12<@Alberth>nasty :p
10:12<supermop_>hehe
10:13<@Alberth>https://www.amazon.com/Pomegranate-Escher-Ascending-Descending-Puzzle/dp/B001M4Z90E also nasty, but less :)
10:14<@Alberth>The "relativity" one is quite doable even, I have it
10:14<@Alberth>lots of grey tones, but no big areas with all the same colour
10:15<supermop_>i always feel weird about buying puzzles
10:15<supermop_>its nice for christmas, when everyone is visiting at home and you spread out the puzzle on a table over a day or two
10:16<supermop_>and maybe then leave the finished puzzle out to view for a while
10:16<@Alberth>esscher wil not be done in 2 days :p
10:16<@Alberth>unless everybody helps, perhaps
10:16<supermop_>but once everyone goes home and the puzzle is finished
10:16<supermop_>it just goes into the box and never gets used again
10:17<@Alberth>fair enough :)
10:17<supermop_>occasionally my mom will swap some old puzzles with a friend so they get reused
10:17<supermop_>but the cardboard doesn't last long enough to go through more than 1-2 owners
10:17<@Alberth>although after a few years, you've forgotten all about them, so no harm in doing them again
10:18<supermop_>and it's not like a board game, where you can play them over and over, so it seems like they take up a lot of room
10:18<@Alberth>depends a lot on the board game :p
10:19<supermop_>nice 3d puzzles that are made of wood or metal you can keep around for years on a shelf, but they are not really fun for more than one person to play
10:19<supermop_>really just become decoration after the first hour or so
10:19<@Alberth>but yeah, board game has higher re-use value
10:19<supermop_>only boardgame i have in my apartment is go board
10:19<supermop_>of which i have 3
10:19<supermop_>but no one to play against in person
10:20<@Alberth>:)
10:20<supermop_>my wife's sister knows how to play, but has not since she was a child, so it would have to be a handicapped game
10:21<@Alberth>that's not a big problem in go
10:21<@Alberth>we could try next week?
10:23<supermop_>you are in nyc then?
10:24<@Alberth>no :)
10:34<supermop_>i wonder if my wife will let me buy another goban
10:34<supermop_>i've told myself that if i make it to 8 kyu on KGS i'll buy one
10:35<supermop_>but when i got to 8 kyu i didn't have any disposable cash, spare space, or a trip to japan on which to buy it
10:35<supermop_>so i changed the goal to 1 dan
10:36<supermop_>(the thick wood kind that sits on the floor - i finally have a floor i can sit on to play, but i dont think my wife would like a goban always sitting in the middle of the living room)
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10:40<frosch123>supermop_: that puzzle will be very easy and boring
10:40<frosch123>the "predictability" of the picture enabled you to immediately locate the position of single tiles
10:41<frosch123>(refering to the gradient one)
10:41<@Alberth>stack your 3 go boards onto each other :p
10:43<@Alberth>frosch123: actually it depends on what's on the puzzle pieces, if it's the box + heap + white around it, ...
10:43<@Alberth>but plain white without any marking on them is also very boring, in my experience
10:44<frosch123>Alberth: there is a picture of the content
10:44<frosch123>you can possibly make a speedrun with that puzzle
10:44<frosch123>i wonder whether one could do it in one hour
10:45<ZirconiumX>Possibly?
10:45<ZirconiumX>I mean, you can get to 2051 with ctrl-alt-c
10:45<@Alberth>frosch123: I right, I didn't check the 2nd image. Very boring indeed
10:45<ZirconiumX>So there's gotta be a way :p
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11:42<Eddi|zuHause><Alberth> stack your 3 go boards onto each other :p <-- 3D-go?
11:46<frosch123>then you need 21 boards, not 3
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11:52<frosch123>@seen andythenorth
11:52<@DorpsGek>frosch123: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 18 hours, 52 minutes, and 43 seconds ago: <andythenorth> bye
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12:02<Eddi|zuHause>man i'm such an idiot.
12:02<Eddi|zuHause>i tried bringing raw oil to the plastic factory :/
12:03<frosch123>isn't that normal in ottd?
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12:03<Eddi|zuHause>they were right next to each other, and i didn't realize i had to fit in a refinery first
12:04<Eddi|zuHause>there's no refinery nearby :/
12:22<Wolf01>Once I got 2 different translations for the same cargo (industry set and train set) and I didn't figure out where to deliver a particular cargo, I had to switch to english again (I was playing with italian because I needed to help a friend in coop)
12:23<Wolf01>I think they were petrol or fuel
12:24<supermop_>frosch123: the boringness of the puzzle is kind of the joke i think - it like a meta work on the tradition of doing a puzzle with your in laws over the holiday because there is nothing else to do
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12:45<supermop_>i should buy them a puzzle that is simply 1000 identical cubes, to be arranged in a rectangle
12:56<Wolf01>Ever tried with lego?
12:57<frosch123>1000 cubes would work for a 10x10x10 cube
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13:05<frosch123>wow, tram behaviour when encountering incompatible track is insane
13:06<Wolf01>Yes, they seem to reverse in totally random places
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13:29<Eddi|zuHause>can we drop the special tram turning rules?
13:29<Wolf01>They wouldn't be able to exit roadstops at eol
13:31<Eddi|zuHause>no, i mean, treat trams and busses the same way wrt turning
13:33<Wolf01>Oh, turning on curves, I thought reversing... because how it is now?
13:33<Eddi|zuHause>i do mean reversing
13:33<frosch123>already fixed it
13:36<supermop_>??
13:37<supermop_>frosch123: how about tram derails and explodes at incompatible type
13:37<Wolf01>Does it happen with trains?
13:37<Alkel_U3>or it attracts a UFO that abducts it
13:38<Alkel_U3>the aliens are always out to get your trams but the tracks are a safehouse
13:39<frosch123>do we want to implement the "curve_speed" property? and if, how should it behave?
13:40<supermop_>frosch123: overspeed tram derails and explodes
13:43<frosch123>RoadVehicle::GetCurrentMaxSpeed() currently seems to do 50% speed when reversing, 75% speed in curves
13:44<Wolf01>Dunno... cat guy doesn't even like speed limits too, I think he just want to have separated road types to not mix vehicles
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27701 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2016-12-20 19:45:37 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian: 37 changes by Lone_Wolf
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13:46<Wolf01>You speak of the cat...
13:46<Wolf01>o/
13:46<supermop_>aha
13:46<frosch123>trains have absolute speed limits for curves
13:46<frosch123>road vehicle seem to have relative speed limits
13:47<Wolf01>Usually because rvs drivers are dicks :P
13:47<frosch123>i think we should drop the curve_speed from the roadtype spec
13:47<frosch123>seems silly to do the same as for trains
13:48<frosch123>all the cool roadtypes we thought about do not have particular high speed anyway
13:58*andythenorth logs
13:59*andythenorth is not cat
13:59<andythenorth>cat is cat
14:00<ZirconiumX>But is cat andythenorth?
14:00<andythenorth>https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=air.com.bartbonte.whereiscat
14:00<andythenorth>also http://cousinsvenslarder.tumblr.com/post/130048891670/where-is-cat
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14:01<andythenorth>frosch123: I don’t think curve speed is very interesting
14:01<andythenorth>I could make a case either way though
14:02<andythenorth>because RVs can’t have diagonals, curves can be quite punishing :P
14:02<frosch123>rv are not supposed to be fast, and rail curve speed is mostly about being fast
14:02<andythenorth>I am not convinced it’s a problem that needs solving for RV
14:02<frosch123>so, i think to remove the curve speed property for roadtypes
14:03<andythenorth>simple is better
14:03<andythenorth>less things, more simple
14:04<frosch123>i added ROAD, ELRD, RAIL and ELRL as default types, and adjusted the test grfs
14:04<frosch123>however, the depot gfx are bad
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14:04<frosch123>the tram depot has tram tracks and catenary in the same sprite
14:05<frosch123>so the eltram depot cannot be used for tram nor elroad
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14:08<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think it'll be terribly confusing in the long run to use "RAIL" for trams...
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14:09<frosch123>just think a LT in front of it
14:10<Eddi|zuHause>it's not that trams aren't rails, but that it's now doubled between railtypes and tramtypes
14:10<andythenorth>yes
14:10<andythenorth>that’s the advantage
14:11<andythenorth>that work has already been done
14:11<andythenorth>everything needed is here https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/RailtypeLabels
14:11<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: including "TM" into every label would be stupid
14:11<frosch123>that's redundant waste
14:12<andythenorth>it’s spurious to insist on different identifiers, they don’t share a namespace
14:12<andythenorth>and they’re meaningless and arbitrary, except for remembering what to type
14:12<andythenorth>:)
14:13<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: what if we introduce a tram<->rail connector piece? :p
14:13<andythenorth>what if aliens land :)
14:13<ZirconiumX>tram<->alien<->rail, then
14:14<andythenorth>ok that works
14:14<ZirconiumX>Not even the third kind can stop the express
14:15<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: the rails will blow up, obviously... have you learned nothing from this game? :p
14:16<andythenorth>we need ufo-types
14:16*andythenorth has disasters off :P
14:16<ZirconiumX>Disasters off is a wise choice.
14:18<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aG07nYz_460sv.mp4 lol, andythenorth
14:18<andythenorth>Wolf01: for real :o
14:18<andythenorth>or fake?
14:18<ZirconiumX>I'd say real
14:18<Wolf01>I think for real, but they don't show the crash :P
14:19<ZirconiumX>You can see it having taken the stairs to accelerate
14:19<supermop__>andythenorth: any pixels need doing for steeltown?
14:20<Eddi|zuHause>you just need enough speed
14:20<andythenorth>supermop__: probably :)
14:20<andythenorth>but I am not sure right now
14:20<supermop__>or do you need a new tram depot? i have lots of depots
14:20<andythenorth>yesterday was work christmas party, today is…less brain
14:21<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/a5Z5VLL_460sv.mp4 ok, another one
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>i'd have some concerns over the end of the track being a bit short to stop
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: well, that was not enough speed :p
14:22<supermop__>Eddi|zuHause: wire tail end of track with reversed voltage
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>supermop__: that sounds unsafe
14:23<supermop__>motors in full reverse
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>supermop__: you need an isolated stretch the length of the train
14:23<Eddi|zuHause>or, the engine
14:23<supermop__>Eddi|zuHause: just length of powered part
14:24<supermop__>also, i wonder if you can get sparks out of little model train wheels
14:24<Eddi|zuHause>uhm... sure?
14:24<supermop__>have seen sparks flying from a slipping tram bogie once in melbourne
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>but a simple short-circut is not enough to cause sparks
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>you need to slightly lift off
14:25<Eddi|zuHause>or dirty tracks
14:26<Wolf01>Considering that rail is not powered and it's entirely plastic, I doubt that you can use it to reverse the speed... or make sparks ;)
14:26<supermop__>Eddi|zuHause: i meant sparks from grinding metal
14:26<Wolf01>There is no metal
14:27<supermop__>well thats no fun
14:27<Eddi|zuHause>supermop__: uhm, yes, but your wheels won't last long :p
14:27<supermop__>Eddi|zuHause: i think if you are sending your model train through a loop you probably dont care about it lasting long
14:28<Eddi|zuHause>supermop__: still, it's easier to get sparks from dirty track
14:29<Wolf01>http://i.imgur.com/lJqNQ.jpg
14:29<supermop__>Wolf01: nice
14:30<Eddi|zuHause>yeah, we had that already years ago :p
14:30<frosch123>on icy mornings i see a lot of catenary sparks when passing the railway tracks
14:32<Wolf01>http://wac.b76a.edgecastcdn.net/80B76A/site/uploads/assets/e0a5800a-96b7-11e3-a7bc-599c0985a36a_large.jpg?v=2 <- this is nice
14:32<Wolf01>How to keep sitches working in winter
14:32<Wolf01>*switches
14:33<Eddi|zuHause>if you can't afford a permanently installed heater...
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14:36<Wolf01>Lol, interesting find: "Why is the Eurostar so slow in England but so fast in France?"
14:37<frosch123>trains are generally faster in france
14:38<@Rubidium>because it's using a different system for speeds?
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14:51<Wolf01>Ahah, good one Rb
15:02<andythenorth>“Now I know why you don’t dig with a shovel near buried power” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qe29y7EpfAQ
15:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think i'm missing some context there
15:09<frosch123>some guy missed the darvin award
15:09<frosch123>*darwin
15:12<Eddi|zuHause>that's not context :p
15:13<Wolf01>I think the idiot tried to steal some power from the buried cable
15:14<andythenorth>he’s building a new grain store
15:15<andythenorth>and he wanted to know where the power was, as they’ll need to avoid it when they’re digging
15:15<Wolf01>So you dig to find it
15:16<andythenorth>yup
15:16<andythenorth>or you use a locator :P
15:22*andythenorth builds latest NRT
15:23<andythenorth>lots of nice fixes
15:24<supermop__>nice
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15:37<Wolf01>Ohhhhh, performance update for TF
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: i noticed most of the delays when picking construction tools are gone, but otherwise i haven't really felt a difference in performance
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: also, i got my very first crash...
15:45<Wolf01>Yes, people are complaining about crashes
15:45<Wolf01>Maybe they are freeing too much memory :P
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>the graphics got really flickery, and a few seconds later it crashed
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15:58<Wolf01>The gui seem to be more responsive
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16:27<supermop__>andythenorth: i feel like messing about with some pixels
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16:32<andythenorth>supermop__: cargo icons? o_O
16:32<supermop__>sounds boring but ok
16:32<andythenorth>quite boutique, and I never have any interest in them :)
16:32<supermop__>which cargoes
16:32*andythenorth looking
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16:32<supermop__>can't recall FIRS graphics standards for icons
16:32<andythenorth>here’s what we have http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/src/graphics/other/cargoicons.png
16:33<supermop__>you should kickstart an Andy Graphics Standards Manual
16:33<andythenorth>http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/push/LATEST/docs/html/code_reference.html#cargos
16:33<supermop__>https://standardsmanual.com/
16:33<frosch123>supermop__: how about a "convert road" icon :)
16:33<andythenorth>that
16:33<andythenorth>^^
16:34<supermop__>https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1863728218/british-rail-corporate-identity-manual
16:34<supermop__>i just got mine in the mail
16:34<supermop__>so much rail blue
16:34<supermop__>and a BR logo union jack, sample menus from 1968, etc
16:34<supermop__>convert road easy enough
16:35<supermop__>ogfx style?
16:35<frosch123>kind of both: original for openttd.grf, ogfx for ogfx_extra.grf
16:36<supermop__>hmmmm ok
16:45<supermop__>where can i find originalish pixels for extra grf?
16:46<frosch123>http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/raw-file/daf280c56930/media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png
16:47<frosch123>i wonder whether we can use the rail icon for tram
16:47<frosch123>then we only need a road icon
16:50<frosch123>night
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16:54<andythenorth>supermop__: that is pretty epic
16:54<andythenorth>an interview I read with BR design team made me want to be a designer
16:55<andythenorth>when I was about 14
16:55<andythenorth>pivotal moment
16:55<supermop__>rail alphabet
16:55<andythenorth>TL;DR: ’everything is designed, people design it’
16:55<supermop__>margaret calvert
16:56<andythenorth>yup
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16:56<andythenorth>I was going to contact her foundry to license New Transport for our products
16:56<andythenorth>but decided it’s too expensive right now
16:56<andythenorth>we chose Lato instead, which is free :P
16:57<supermop__>yeah
16:57<supermop__>ive considered buying it now and then
16:57<supermop__>but its sooo expensive
16:57<andythenorth>any idea how much?
16:57<supermop__>i recall like 2000 or something
16:58<andythenorth>it’s probably more for my case, I’d be serving it in about 150 customer sites
16:58<supermop__>basically i could buy half an espresso machine
16:58<supermop__>or an old celica
16:59<supermop__>or a reallly nice suit
16:59<supermop__>and i have no business case for a signage font
17:00<andythenorth>no :P
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17:05<andythenorth>bed
17:05<andythenorth>bye
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17:42<supermop__>ok convert sprites done
17:42<supermop__>for tarmac road and tramway
17:42<supermop__>i guess will need a dirt one?
17:42<Wolf01>Grfs would provide custom ones
17:43<supermop__>frosch and andy are gone, so i leave it to you Wolf01 to be the nrt client on this one
17:44<supermop__>if regular road and regular tramway are sufficient for NRT at this point?
17:44<supermop__>idk if they wanted these for a grf or a patch
17:44<Wolf01>I think there are also electrified road/tramway
17:45<supermop__>vanilla tramway doesn't currently show wires on the gui
17:45<supermop__>i can make another set of sprites for electric road and electric tram
17:48<supermop__>orig base draws wires on the gui for ELRL
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17:48<supermop__>on the tramway cursor adding wires will make it basically just a grey blob
17:48<supermop__>I can use the blue spark like in ogfx, but that is out of style for orig
17:50<supermop__>hmm ogfx doesn't use the blue spark either... that must have been a different rail grf i was thinking of
17:51<Wolf01>I don't know, you and andy are the graphics geniuses :P
17:53<supermop__>blue spark is clearly the graphically superior option
17:54<supermop__>but people like original graphics because it looks original
17:54<supermop__>so breaking that style ruins the point
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17:56<supermop__>huh, now i can't recall which rail grf uses a spark in gui
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18:12<supermop__>yeah adding wires to the tramway cursor sprites you can't even see
18:13<supermop__>just need to find a good GPL spark now
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18:15<Wolf01>'night
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19:45<Eddi|zuHause>supermop__: the dutch catenary grf pops into my head, but not sure...
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 21 00:00:26 2016