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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-21

---Logopened Wed Dec 21 00:00:26 2016
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02:36<xdoL>guys guys can vehicle_cost & construction_cost be set abysmally high from the .cfg ?
02:36<xdoL>rather is there a way ?
02:38<xdoL>trying to set a game for the long haul with really long day length and all, but the costs and interest is just too low. the game is too ez.
02:44<xdoL>nvm found something that fixes my shiet
02:45<peter1139>cool
02:46<xdoL>well the .cfg file wasnt as flexible as i thought
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03:04<peter1139>there's stuff in there but i don't remember it all
03:04<peter1139>but then there are already newgrfs for it
03:08<peter1139>s/already/also/
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03:37<Flygon><xdoL> guys guys can vehicle_cost & construction_cost be set abysmally high from the .cfg ?
03:38<Flygon>Is this guy trying to follow Victorian Government practice?
04:15<crem>\o
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05:08<Wolf01>o/
05:08<ZirconiumX>\o
05:13<frosch123>moi
05:15<Wolf01>Mmmh... forgot to cut a chunk of facial hairs...
05:16<Wolf01>I'm not used to do it, I usually have a lot of facial hairs
05:17<V453000>anus?
05:20<Wolf01>I prefer to not speak about that
05:20<Wolf01>:D
05:22<Wolf01>Btw... downloading Halo Wars... also job talk this afternoon... hyped as fuck
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05:30<Wolf01>Oh, today is even winter
05:35<__ln__>how did you determine that
05:35<Wolf01>Google
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06:02<Eddi|zuHause>when i look out of the window, the side of the valley that is in the sun is green, and th side of the valley that is in the shade is white
06:03<Wolf01>Same happens in my garden, the part in the shadow is white, while the part in the sun is green :P
06:11<Wolf01>frosch123, I'm not getting the right gui sprites, I need to cleanup something?
06:12<frosch123>i added the sprites to openttd,grf, but they are not used yet
06:13<frosch123>though if you use roadtypeinfo.gui_sprites.convert_road it should be fine
06:13<Wolf01>Ok, btw, I'm syncing the "convert-road" branch with the latest changes
06:13<Wolf01>I see only question marks, both in the button and cursor
06:13<frosch123>it worked when i put them in place of the autoroad button
06:14<Wolf01>I'm still getting the message about missing sprites sterting the game
06:14<Wolf01>Maybe that's the reason
06:14<frosch123>ah, you need to select original graphics :)
06:15<Wolf01>Ok
06:15<frosch123>i did not add them to opengfx
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06:42<Wolf01>Btw, how could we define the compatibility between roadtypes of the same type? For example ROAD vs HAUL
06:43<Wolf01>I'm trying to write a IsCompatibleRoad() function but I can't figure out how
06:43<frosch123>i don't understand the question
06:44<Wolf01>When converting the roadtype, we should check if the new type is compatible
06:44<Wolf01>Not only between powered-unpowered, but also because they have different track system
06:45<frosch123>the equivalent to IsCompatibleRail is HasPowerOnRoad
06:45<Wolf01>Eh, and if you want to convert ROAD to WETR?
06:45<frosch123>"compatible" and "powered" is the same for road and tram
06:45<Wolf01>Both are unpowered
06:46<frosch123>ROAD to WETR is the same as rail to monorail
06:46<Wolf01>Yes, but I don't have a way to check it
06:46<frosch123>what do you mean with "both are unpowered"?
06:47<Wolf01>They don't have catenary
06:47<frosch123>"powered" has nothing to do with catenary
06:47<frosch123>it just means whether a vehicle of one type can drive on track of some type
06:47<Wolf01>Then the naming should be CanRunOnroad/Rail
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06:48<frosch123>don't invent new names for things where railtypes already have names
06:48<Wolf01>I know they already are, but they are confusing
06:49<frosch123>"compatible" means "can run on track, but cannot provide power, i.e. behaves like a rail wagon"
06:49<frosch123>"powered" mans "can run on track, and can provide power, i.e. behaves like a rail engine"
06:49<frosch123>since road vehicles have no wagons, both are the same
06:49<Wolf01>It's like git where commit mean save a patch and push mean commit
06:54<Wolf01>Also there's a mix of properties of the infrastructure and vehicle in the same place
06:55<frosch123>same as for railtypes :)
06:56<Wolf01>Yes, but it's not an excuse to avoid to use the right meaning of the words
06:56<frosch123>i consider consistency more important
06:56<frosch123>a single word never is fully descriptive
06:56<frosch123>so you need to know the meaning anyway
06:57<frosch123>i cannot tell whether CanRunOnRail means compatible or powered
06:58<frosch123>so i do not see how it is better
06:58<Wolf01>In fact it means both, that's why you need to have 2 functions with the right names
06:58<frosch123>yes, those functions are called Compatible, and Powered
06:59<Wolf01>But powered has "provides power from rail/catenary/magnets" in my head, because we are speaking about a rail
07:00<Wolf01>But is instead a vehicle!
07:00<Wolf01>For example IsPoweredRailType() is used in 2 different cases (both valid) while the docs tell to use it to check between vehicle and infrastructure, it's also used to check between infrastructure and infrastructure
07:01<Wolf01>*IsCompatibleRailType
07:01<Eddi|zuHause>what's confusing about that?
07:01<Wolf01>The meaning
07:02<Wolf01>Because reading the code and calling the variables A and B is easy to understand
07:03<Wolf01>IsCompatibleRail(RailType enginetype, RailType tiletype); works even if you invert the arguments, with different legit results
07:05<Wolf01>Calling them "cur_type" and "type_to_check_against" would be less confusing
07:05<Wolf01>As when upgrading a rail you don't have an "engine"
07:05<frosch123>i would claim the reverse :p
07:06<frosch123>upgrading does not check whether one railtype can run on the other, but it is about checking whether "most" engines that ran on the old one, can run on the new one
07:06<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: if you think mathematically, it's like extending a comparison operator like "a<b" which is defined on numbers to sets of numbers, like a < {b,c,d}
07:06<frosch123>convert rail is about checking compatibility of engines to tracks
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>an engine is like "a", and a railtype is like "{b,c,d}"
07:07<Eddi|zuHause>now you can also compare two sets {a,b,c} < {d,e}
07:08<Eddi|zuHause>(meaning is: all elements of the first set are smaller than all elements in the second set)
07:08<Wolf01>I'm not speaking about the functionality, I'm speaking about the names, the names are confusing
07:09<frosch123>i don't think so, the names are fine
07:09<Eddi|zuHause>and i'm saying i'm not seeing your confusion
07:09<frosch123>just convert rail uses them in a weird way
07:09<Wolf01>^
07:09<frosch123>convert rail does a simplified check whether an upgrade makes sense
07:09<frosch123>instead it should run over all engine types, and count how many are compatible to old and new
07:10<frosch123>the functions are really about checking engines vs track
07:10<frosch123>that's what the game logic uses them for, and that's what newgrf authors use them for
07:10<frosch123>convertrail just tries to make use of them, when deciding whether elrail->3rdrail conversion makes sense
07:11<frosch123>as said, the intention of convertrail is to check whether engines, which were powered before, are powered afterwards
07:11<frosch123>it does *not* check whether the tracktypes are compatible, because that makes no sense
07:12<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: yes, i think it's very much the same as what i tried to explain. the "normal" usage of "is compatible" is a < {b,c,d} where a is an enginetype and {b,c,d} is a tracktype. convert rail tries to extend that to sets of engines, so it tries to do {a,b,c} < {d,e}
07:12<Wolf01>"IsEngineCompatibleRail", because with "IsCompatibleRail" I would look if the rail has the same gauge, shape, power type (magnets, catenary), which is the same of questioning if the vehicle which ran on the old one can run on the new one, but leaving out the vehicle
07:13<Eddi|zuHause>i'm still not able to see what you find so confusing about this
07:14<Wolf01>Languages difference maybe
07:14<frosch123>i think the problem is that convertrail does not do an exact check, but an approximation
07:14<frosch123>and wolf thinks that it would be an exact check and then complains that the check is not named like that
07:14<frosch123>but it really is no exact check
07:14<Wolf01>"The road in front of my house is powered" doesn't make any sense, I might answer "yes, there's light"
07:15<frosch123>there is no exact check whether elrail is compatible to 3rdrail
07:15<frosch123>some engines are powered on either, some on both, some on none
07:15<Wolf01>The problem is that isn't the road which is powered, but it is my car which has power to run on it
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: no, that question doesn't make any sense, but nobody asks that question
07:15<frosch123>yes, that's why it is an "appoximation", and not an "exact" check
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: the usual question is "is this car powered on that road?"
07:16<Wolf01>Nobody which knows the background of the functionality, with little docs I didn't figure out until now
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: and convert rail asks "are ALL cars which are powered on this road also powered on the new road?"
07:17<Wolf01>For me "powered_railtypes" as proterty of a railtype didn't make any sense, and I thought it was related to catenary
07:17<Wolf01>Instead is a vehicle property
07:17<frosch123>it is not related to catenary
07:17<Wolf01>In railtype
07:17<frosch123>both compatible and powered are about vehicle -> tracktype relations
07:18<frosch123>since tracktype and vehicletype definitions are usually independent, the vehicle/track interaction must be defined in one place, not in both
07:19<frosch123>it was put into the track definition, and imho it is also a better place than the vehicles
07:19<frosch123>it has has a lot more to do with which tracktypes are available, than with which vehicle types are available
07:21<Wolf01>"bitmask to the OTHER railtypes on which an engine of THIS railtype generates power" and "bitmask to the OTHER railtypes on which an engine of THIS railtype can physically travel" taken those comments, what I understand is, a steam engine can physically travel in rail and elrail? yes, can generate power in both? yes -> compatible; an electric engine can physically travel in rail and elrail?
07:21<Wolf01>yes, can generate power in both? no -> not compatible, why? misses catenary
07:22<Wolf01>A boat can physically travel in rail? no -> not compatible
07:23<Wolf01>That's my confusion
07:23<Wolf01>Maybe I miss a train which can only travel in normal rail but not elrail
07:24<frosch123>andy wanted to add that case for HAUL :)
07:24<Wolf01>I know, and I didn't understand it
07:24<Wolf01>Now I do
07:27<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/psrnlzd4d <- that's a typical rail example
07:30<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p8m1zbm2i <- same for roads
07:30<frosch123>not that "only vehicletype" currently does not exist, but it may make sense to extend the spec to allow that
07:30<frosch123>*note
07:37<Wolf01>Too bad is not so easy to provide meaningful error messages
07:37<Wolf01>For example you can't convert a road with elrail (tram) over it to haul because a "4 stories truck will collide with the tram catenary"
07:38<Wolf01>Also I don't get why a mine truck couldn't generate power on road :P
07:39<frosch123>don't try to make ottd smarter than the player
07:39<frosch123>obviously the catenary is so low that it will easily go under the haul truck
07:39<frosch123>so, no problem with conversion
07:40<Wolf01>The game should charge your company each time a haul truck passes over the catenary for reconstruction :P
07:40<Eddi|zuHause>whether haul and tram can coexist on the same tile needs a new property outside the rail-derived compatible/powered
07:41<frosch123>yeah, and it won't be eary if you want to allow over-head tram over canal road
07:41<Wolf01>As we don't have even vehicles which can run on both road and tram (w/o road)
07:41<Eddi|zuHause>(and there should be separate properties for "can run along the same trackbit" and "can have crossing with")
07:42<Eddi|zuHause>for example, if i want a tram that can run along roads, and a speed-tram that cannot run along roads, only have occasional crossings
07:43<Wolf01>That was one of my ponies for roadtypes
07:43<Eddi|zuHause>those are pure tracktype<->tracktype relationships, not vehicle->tracktype
07:43<Wolf01>Along with roads without intersections
07:44<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/road_tram_crossing.png <- Eddi|zuHause: which of those flags is relevant for that?
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think anything other than an X crossing will ask for "can run along"
07:45<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: but i'm not too sure
07:48<Wolf01>About road without intersections, to resolve the problem could be that we introduce phisical infrastructures like sound barriers or fences?
07:49<Wolf01>*physical
07:49<frosch123>road fences like rail fences would make sense at some point
07:50<Wolf01>I mean, placeable like the "one way" feature
07:50<frosch123>that is what newobjects are for
07:50<Wolf01>Newobjects can't be built on road
07:50<frosch123>but next to road
07:51<Wolf01>You can build around it but you waste a tile
07:51<frosch123>anyway, we don't stack N things on top of a tile
07:51<frosch123>that creates a very closed system where everything depends on everything
07:51<Wolf01>Also with 2 close roads you can't build a newobject inbetween
07:52<frosch123>roadtypes can check adjacent tiles, and draw appropiate borders
07:52<Wolf01>But nobody stops you to build a crossing
07:52<frosch123>but that kind of stuff won't be player placeable
07:53<frosch123>yeah, but why would you stop someone from building a crossing :p
07:53<Wolf01>Eyecandy, roadflow
07:54<frosch123>well, we talked about that before. a "exclusive owned" thing makes more sense to me
07:55<Wolf01>Yes, but still not sure, I would like to keep some paths open for the future
07:55<frosch123>i think those things have to wait until we have *some* road and tramtypes
07:55<frosch123>many of these interaction-checks assume some very specific types, and make no sense in any other context
07:55<Wolf01>Agreed
07:56<frosch123>the levelcrossing flag was also not added on 1st day
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07:56<frosch123>and for tram/road stuff seems to be a lot more complicated
07:56<Wolf01>Some roadbits checking, I did many tries in these days with interesting results
07:57<Wolf01>But without exactly knowing the meaning of the "powered_roadtypes" I wasn't able to properly do it
08:00<Wolf01>Btw, the easiest pre-conversion check could be just "return IsPoweredRoad(A, B) ? IsPoweredRoad(B, A) : true;"?
08:00<Wolf01>*false
08:01<Wolf01>Derived from conversion cost
08:01<frosch123>that is "IsPoweredRoad(A, B) && IsPoweredRoad(B, A)" ?
08:01<Wolf01>Uhm, yes
08:01<frosch123>i would expect "IsPoweredRoad(A, B) || IsPoweredRoad(B, A)"
08:01<Eddi|zuHause>i'd save the "no crossings" thing for a "pipelines" type...
08:02<Wolf01>Eddi|zuHause, no crossing means also no T junctions of the same type
08:02<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: then i would save it for a "no gameplay" flag
08:02<Wolf01>Could be the right name
08:04<Wolf01>ROTF_NO_GAMEPLAY... what if we want more than one "no gameplay" to stack?
08:04<Wolf01>I'll just fall back to ROTF_ONLY_OWNER
08:04<Wolf01>So one could do whatever it wants without external interferences
08:08<Wolf01>I've looked at vehicle movement too, to do what I want the thing needs some (read "a lot") refactoring
08:09<Wolf01>Or maybe some hiding of the array
08:09<Wolf01>Like the RoadTypeInfo
08:10<Wolf01>Got to go, I'll be back in the evening
08:10<Wolf01>Bye
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08:11<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: how is "pipline" more "no gameplay" than people running A-B connections with one single train and no crossings?
08:11<frosch123>because i can safely ignore the latter
08:13<frosch123>pipelines are also the worst part of factorio
08:13<frosch123>though there are myths that it is changed to something different
08:13<frosch123>though no idea what different
08:15<frosch123>as myths go, it could as well just be the colour that is changed :p
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08:34<V453000>lol myths
08:35<V453000>pipes are the same as before
08:35<V453000>except graphics
08:35<frosch123>wasn't there something about preventing auto-join neighbouring pipelines?
08:35<V453000>it's been talked about but nobody did it yet
08:35<frosch123>yeah, "myths" :)
08:36<crem>pipes? Is pipeline transport finally in openttd? Can I pump oil?
08:36<frosch123>crem: there are newgrf, which add a pipeline railtype, and invisible engines that run on it
08:37<frosch123>some people even play with that :)
08:37<crem>That's not quite right pipes. :)
08:38<crem>anyway, I didn't play openttd for years. Tried recently to play some scenarios, but none of them happen to have required dependencies available.
08:38<frosch123>well, pipelines and electricity lines are even more boring than aircraft
08:38<V453000>xd
08:38<frosch123>aircraft are vehicles without track, pipeline/wire is track without vehicles
08:38<V453000>BUT BELTS
08:39<frosch123>add belts with 3 lanes :)
08:39<V453000>openttd needs belts
08:39<V453000>shame railtypes can't animate
08:40<frosch123>we need multicore support for animating railtypes :)
08:42<V453000>easy
08:42<V453000>just check [ ] multithreaded game in game engine editor
08:43<V453000>next problem ?
08:43<frosch123>artists with more hands
08:43<V453000>haha yes
08:44<V453000>I actually ordered a new pen tablet pc few days ago
08:44<V453000>might start drawing for openttd when in metro/bus
08:44<frosch123>is it table with display, or separate tablet and display?
08:44<crem>Do artists for newgrf mostly doing pixel art or 3d modelling?
08:44<V453000>basically a laptop without keyboard
08:45<frosch123>when i used a pen, it felt very weird to draw in front of you, but look at some other screen
08:45<V453000>well yeah that's what I have been using until now
08:45<V453000>it isn't that bad tbh
08:45<V453000>but now I will be touching the screen :) I can even connect it to a normal PC to only use the pen display
08:46<V453000>crem: it depends, but most graphics are pixel "art"
08:52<Redirect_Left>Hm
08:53<Redirect_Left>Is it possible to alter the production of an industry based on season
08:53<Redirect_Left>well, months I guess, openttd doesn't know what a season is
08:53<Redirect_Left>I'm trying to implement a theme park and other attractions GRF, that produces lots of passengers in summer, then drops to almost 0 during winter months
08:53<peter1139>ok
08:53<Redirect_Left>as they much would do in realirty
08:54<peter1139>what's the german version of "happy birthday"?
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09:08<ZirconiumX>peter1139: "Zum Geburtstag viel Glueck"
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09:15<andythenorth>o/
09:16<crem>\o
09:17<ZirconiumX>\o
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09:21<V453000>peter1139: blitzkrieg
09:22<frosch123>Redirect_Left: yes it is possible, alpine climate did implement that for farms, possibly ecs as well, and it sucks for gameplay
09:23<Redirect_Left>as long as you're paying attention and set up timetables, shouldn't affect suckability really
09:23<Redirect_Left>i can only foresee that if I (i don't release anything, so I) stop paying attention to date
09:24<frosch123>the problem is what to do with the vehicles in winter
09:24<frosch123>but true, maybe timetables improved the situation
09:24<frosch123>back then there was only full-load, so either you played without fullload or vehicles were waiting at 90% loaded during winter
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09:30<andythenorth>ho
09:30<andythenorth>much logs
09:30<frosch123>quantity != quality :p
09:30<frosch123>andythenorth: supermop made lots of sprites :)
09:31<andythenorth>I saw :)
09:34*andythenorth gets to end of logs
09:35<andythenorth>one of those discussions eh? :)
09:35<andythenorth>moar pipelines
09:35<andythenorth>moar unitised transport, with constraints
09:48<supermop__>pallet animate belts?
09:48<supermop__>andythenorth: how to show power/not power on tram and road cursor
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09:49<supermop__>or just not show? tram depot cursor just shows a regular road depot
09:49<frosch123>imho "don't show" :)
09:50<supermop__>ok
09:50<supermop__>user can infer from context
09:50<supermop__>just like most rail newgrf show plain rail cursor regardless of speed limit etc
09:50<frosch123>i am unsure about the road depots in the viewport though
09:51<frosch123>currently there is a road depot without catenary, and a tram depot with catenary
09:51<andythenorth>not show
09:51<andythenorth>not needed
09:51<frosch123>i tried to use the tram depot for road with catenary, but the sprites include rails
09:51<supermop__>thats easy enough to photoshop if you want me to
09:52<supermop__>other option is to make all tram depots look more like the train depot but wider
09:52<frosch123>i would be less worried about adding sprites to the default game, if the basesets were actually maintained :)
09:52<supermop__>where is planetmaker ?
09:52<supermop__>doesn't he do ogfx? ish?
09:53<frosch123>as it is now, we will get 10 reports in the first week that zbase shows a "please upgrade" message when starting ottd when there is no upgrade
09:53<supermop__>i mean we could make a zbase extra?
09:53<frosch123>maybe Eddi|zuHause finishes his patch that at least the gui icons are always used from openttd.grf
09:53<frosch123>but for depot sprites that does not really work
09:53<Eddi|zuHause>i what? i don't know that word :p
09:54<supermop__>like is there a method to fall back to a different base set or extra grf if sprites are missing? is that your idea Eddi|zuHause ?
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>i'm pretty sure i suggested that a few years ago...
09:55<Eddi|zuHause>there was never any work on a patch as far as i can tell
09:56<supermop__>otherwise i mean, its not really your problem frosch123 , if users complain about zbase, tell them to use ogfx
09:57<supermop__>or to update / fork zbase themselves
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09:58<supermop__>really, depot building and depot floor should be separate sprite though
09:58<frosch123>http://hg.openttd.org/trunk.hg/raw-file/daf280c56930/media/extra_grf/tramtracks.png <- 49 and 51 are the problem
09:58<frosch123>wall and tracks
09:59<frosch123>in theory one could mix the wall from the road depot, and the top of the tram depot
09:59<frosch123>but who knows what that looks like in other basesets
10:00<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: i think something's wrong with mime types there
10:00<supermop__>frosch123: thats what i am suggesting
10:00<supermop__>but, one could remove the tracks from 49 and have just the bit of wall
10:01<supermop__>and have game take the U from the regular tram end of line bit
10:01<frosch123>yeah, that is also an option
10:01<supermop__>probably most flexible
10:01<frosch123>resp, that is what is done for roadstops
10:01<supermop__>lmk what you want me to photoshop
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10:02<frosch123>i don't think we need new sprites for the basegame right now
10:03<frosch123>maybe andy has new track types in mind :)
10:06<supermop__>fair enough
10:06<supermop__>also i can live with transformer and insulator on top of my non-powered tram depot for now
10:09<@planetmaker>hm, I heard my name whispered
10:10<supermop__>sorry planetmaker
10:10<@planetmaker>no need to be sorry
10:11<supermop__>was discussing messing with the base sets
10:11<@planetmaker>I haven't been quite following the discussion lately, I have to admit. Can you frame me in?
10:12<supermop__>well base sets only provide a tram depot with both tracks and wires, and a road depot with neither
10:12<supermop__>ofc a new grf could add a new depot
10:13<supermop__>but it seems that the tracks should be drawn separate from the tracks
10:13<supermop__>oops, tracks separate from the building
10:14<supermop__>so you can combine from existing sprites to get powered road, or unpowered tram, etc
10:14<supermop__>in this case the depot would take it's tracks from the regular tram U overlay, rather than as part of the sprite that contains the back wall
10:15<crem>If I want to move old trains into "museum area", is it possible to disable "train is old" notifications for them? (for individual trains, not globally)
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10:15<Sharkman>hello
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10:17<supermop__>sharkman - he left us too soon
10:17<supermop__>crem: no
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10:17<supermop__>yessss
10:17<supermop__>hello Sharkman_
10:17<Sharkman_>hi
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10:18<Sharkman_>ive been looking at tutorials for newgrf's but all are just programming, whats the thing where you change the way the game looks?
10:19<frosch123>supermop__: https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nrt_depot.png <- i removed the tracks from the baseset
10:19<frosch123>and drew them as separate layer
10:19<supermop__>nice
10:20<supermop__>you are making me redundant frosch123
10:20<frosch123>i can draw some blue pixels :)
10:20<supermop__>Sharkman_: also newgrfs
10:20<supermop__>but you must write some code to tell the game how to change how it looks
10:20<Sharkman_>yeah but is there guides on making the graphics and not doing the programming?
10:20<andythenorth>to make the graphics, you just draw
10:20<supermop__>with NML the code is less hard
10:21<andythenorth>but with the right palette
10:21<supermop__>Sharkman_: what andy said
10:21<Sharkman_>okay i guess, i have no talent in coding or graphics, I just want to make toyland into somthing else lol
10:21<andythenorth>fair
10:21<andythenorth>‘anything but toyland'
10:21<supermop__>technically you don't need to use a pallette anymore, but it looks better if you do most of the time
10:21<frosch123>Sharkman_: then use one of the many sets "turn toyland into something else" as base for your work
10:22<Sharkman_>okay thanks, where can i find one?
10:22<supermop__>Sharkman_: do you have some ideas, or just anything different will do
10:22<Sharkman_>i have osme ideas
10:22<supermop__>i think there was a mars conversion?
10:22<Sharkman_>yeah ill use that thanks
10:22<frosch123>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx-mars <- i have no idea how complete that is
10:23<frosch123>but depending on whether you want to do landscape or vehicles, you can also look at the other vehicle or landscape grfs
10:23<supermop__>you can look at the pixel sprites and draw over them in mspaint or something
10:23<Sharkman_>thanks
10:23<supermop__>if you want to make small, easy changes
10:25<Sharkman_>how would i decompile the grf file into sprites?
10:27<supermop__>uh there is a command line tool that does that, but its easier for most projects to just use the source
10:27<supermop__>mars project frosch mention will have sources at that location
10:28<supermop__>opengfx also will have its sources on that site
10:29<supermop__>so you can just get a png of the relevant sprites instead of a huge pcx of every sprite in the grf
10:29<MonkeyDrone>frosch123: is it possible to only change the time-line on server-side by patching it with longer days and client is still able to connect with it's standard client?
10:29<MonkeyDrone>o/ everyone
10:29<supermop__>generally any GPL project should have the sources available somewhere or by request
10:30<supermop__>and if it is closed source, you are kind of in a grey area to modify the sprites
10:30<frosch123>MonkeyDrone: no
10:30<MonkeyDrone>ok , thank you.
10:32<supermop__>today wife quits her job
10:32<frosch123>MonkeyDrone: best you can do is to make all vehicles available (by adding 10000 to the date) and then using the "hide engine" option to filter vehicle lists
10:32<frosch123>MonkeyDrone: the server can then possibly also reject build commands to build those vehicles
10:33<frosch123>supermop__: moving to europe?
10:33<frosch123>:p
10:33<MonkeyDrone>ah, ok. Thanks frosch123. I was just looking into options on how much you can modify the server without needing a custom client.
10:33<supermop__>haha not yet
10:33<supermop__>she is taking a different job
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10:54<@Alberth>o/
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10:54<supermop__>yo Alberth
10:54<ElleKitty>*waves waves*
10:56<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nrt_catenary_continuation.png
10:56<frosch123>with the default catenary it is almost invisible :p
10:58<supermop__>frosch123: often i have trouble seeing trolly wire over roads in real life!
10:58<@Alberth>as long as you don't touch them, it's fine :)
10:59<supermop__>because trolley wire is not catenary - it doesn't have the extra catenary support wire - its just a thin wire with minimal support, so it often blends into the background
11:00<supermop__>i guess most neighbors would complain if there was a huge mess of wires right outside their window
11:01<frosch123>aren't overground wires quite common in us towns?
11:01<supermop__>https://www.instagram.com/p/p2YDFOjwsg/
11:01<supermop__>can't even see them
11:01<supermop__>frosch123: they were more common until the 1950s. NYC used underground power
11:02<supermop__>none of the surviving or new US tramways have underground electric power
11:02<supermop__>SF has one line that uses underground cable haulage
11:02<frosch123>hmm, how does that work?
11:02<frosch123>how does the engine get to the power?
11:03<supermop__>in SF the 'cable car' has a gripper that grabs onto a continuously moving loop of cable
11:03<supermop__>grip on to move forward, let go to slow down - better for very steep hills
11:04<Sharkman_>http://i.imgur.com/gRDnwXO.png would this work as a spritesheet
11:04<supermop__>frosch123: underground electric, the tram has a blade that sticks down through a slot into the vault, and contacts a 3rd rail
11:06<frosch123>ah, via a blade
11:07<supermop__>http://dewi.ca/trains/conduit/n08_01.jpg
11:07<supermop__>http://www.hawthorntramdepot.org.au/papers/img/strickland3.jpg
11:08<supermop__>the problem is of course the conduit occasionally gets full of trash or dirt
11:10<frosch123>no leaf trees allowed :)
11:11<supermop__>also the part in the conduit is wider than the slot, so if the tram breaks, you must tow it to the next access hatch to get it unstuck
11:13<supermop__>http://nycsubway.org.s3.amazonaws.com/images/i46000/img_46021.jpg
11:14<supermop__>the square panel next to the tram on the right track is the access hatch
11:14<frosch123>he, "air conditioned" on the front :)
11:15<supermop__>advertising works! in a hot city summer, air conditioned tram sounds nice - many subway trains did not yet have AC at that time
11:16<supermop__>although the photo looks like early march, not august
11:16<frosch123>too little green for august :)
11:17<supermop__>so hopefully the tram also has heat
11:18<supermop__>Sharkman_: yes
11:18<Sharkman_>yay
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11:43<@Alberth>o/
11:43<supermop__>frosch123: alternate power methods for tram could be interesting
11:43<supermop__>not much gameplay impact other than frustrating players who choose the method that later becomes obsolete
11:44<supermop__>120 years ago people didn't know that overhead wire would win, but any player would know not to chose the conduit trams
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11:45<Wolf01>o/
11:45<@Alberth>o/
11:46<Wolf01>So "a developer dog is not seen every day" "I'm a wolf" "you seem interesting, we'll might call you after holidays"
11:47<Markk>\o
11:48<supermop__>unless tall, oversized trucks cannot drive under trolley wire, then underground current is better
11:49<Markk>Especially when a kid runs amok and touches the underground current.
11:49<Wolf01>Underground road type, you provide only overlay with terrain tiles... I don't know how it will work on intersections
11:49<Markk>Flying kid!
11:49<Wolf01>Btw, any news?
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11:53<supermop__>Wolf01: the idea is for trams that get their power from a slot in the pavement - was popular in the earlier 20th century
11:58<Alkel_U3>well, modern variation on that is apparently emerging
11:58<Alkel_U3>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-level_power_supply
11:59<supermop__>the frnch system is cool
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12:19<_dp_>hi, is there any grf for toyland industries, preferably ground aware?
12:19<_dp_>like opengfx+ industries but for toyland
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12:24<@Alberth>I am not aware of such a newgrf
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12:27<V453000>I think YETI does reuse ground tiles _dp_ :P
12:31<V453000>but in general newgrf authors are assholes towards toyland
12:32<V453000>discrimination and stuff
12:32<_dp_>yeah, YETI is my backup plan)
12:32<_dp_>rly don't want a 200Mb download in one-time event though
12:33<V453000>everybody should already have it downloaded Obviously! :D
12:33<V453000>yeah I understand your point
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12:33<V453000>what's wrong with default toyland industries though? :)
12:34<@Alberth>they're in the wrong climate :p
12:34<_dp_>exactly)
12:35<V453000>oh you want to move toyland industries to another climate
12:35<V453000>btw are you aware that you can use japanese landscape in toyland?
12:35<_dp_>I thought it's easier to move toyland indusries to arctic than arctic landscape to toyland)
12:37<_dp_>Yeah, I considered japanese landscape but I like alpine one more
12:38<_dp_>Also would be nice to have toyland industries as grf coz they r awesome)
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12:43<V453000>yez
12:47<frosch123>Wolf01: https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nrt_catenary_continuation.png <- i've added the catenary continuation check
12:48<frosch123>Wolf01: so, they explored your github résumé?
12:48<Wolf01>Nah
12:49<Wolf01>I only said I like to give you headaches with patches
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12:53<frosch123>_dp_: i guess easiest option with existing grf is to play in toyland, and add something like "ghat landscape"
12:54<frosch123>or japan set landscape
12:55<frosch123>hmm, oh, recent japan landscape does not work in toyland
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12:57<_dp_>frosch123, I want snow! :p
12:57<frosch123>oh, right
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12:57<frosch123>yeah, then a new newgrf which enables toyland indutries in arctic
12:57<_dp_>if it was only for removing crazy checkboard there is always temperate replacement grf
12:58<frosch123>not sure whether houses would automatically accept sweets and fizzy drinks
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13:00<Eddi|zuHause>if they replace mail/food/goods?
13:01<frosch123>mail is mail
13:01<frosch123>sweets is supposed to be food
13:01<frosch123>fizzy drinks is supposed to be goods
13:02<_dp_>And I'm using swedish houses...
13:02<_dp_>Well, was thinking of adding some houses anyway
13:02<Wolf01>Strange, I always supposed they were a byproduct of refinery
13:03<Wolf01>Aren't toys the goods?
13:04<frosch123>toys go to toyshop
13:04<frosch123>the house acceptance is the tricky part
13:05<Wolf01>We need a more modular system
13:05<_dp_>drinks have same id as arctic food
13:06<_dp_>and candy is goods
13:06<frosch123>oh, so the other way around
13:07<_dp_>what happens if I use GOOD and SWET in my grf? will it be the same cargo or different ones?
13:09<frosch123>in a newgrf you have to decide which to use
13:09<frosch123>the duplicate ids only affect default stuff
13:13<_dp_>What's pnml file extension for?
13:14<@Alberth>partial nml file
13:14<@Alberth>ie the C preprocessor merges them into an nml file
13:14<_dp_>how it it different from full one? just odesn't have grf block?
13:15<@Alberth>the #include, and #define macros get expanded by the C preprocessor
13:16<_dp_>oh, so it doesn't expand macros in regular nml?
13:17<@Alberth>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C_preprocessor
13:17<@Alberth>regular nml has templates
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13:18<@Alberth>and yes, it would be nice if nml had more macro capabilities
13:19<_dp_>so, pnml is not a nmlc format but something that build system in particular grfs introduce?
13:23<frosch123>yes
13:23<frosch123>cpp is used to combine multiple pnml files into a single nml file
13:24<_dp_>print(open("toyland_industries.pnml").read())
13:24<frosch123>you can find that nml file usually also on bundles.openttdcoop.org
13:24<_dp_>that will do xD
13:24<frosch123>next to the grf
13:25<_dp_>yeah, I wanted to use include and remebered that I saw it there
13:26<@Alberth>andy uses Python to generate nml
13:26<_dp_>me too
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27702 trunk/src/lang/russian.txt (2016-12-21 19:45:40 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>russian: 16 changes by Lone_Wolf
13:50<supermop__>so frosch123 are the gui sprites working in nrt now?
13:50<frosch123>i added them and tested them, but the function itself is not available yet
13:50<frosch123>except in some hidden wolf work space
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14:03<andythenorth>o/
14:04<andythenorth>regular nml ought to have macros, or at least includes
14:04<andythenorth>but eh
14:04<andythenorth>doing the cpp style includes is probably a trivial patch
14:04<Wolf01><frosch123> except in some hidden wolf work space <- https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/tree/convert-road
14:04<andythenorth>nml already seems to know about them, or at least it knows which included file to blame when a compile fails
14:05<andythenorth>it finds correct line number, unless it’s make doing that
14:05<Wolf01>Misses the last 3 commits
14:05<Wolf01>I'm too lazy to connect the external dvd player to get the original graphics from cd
14:06<Wolf01>So I'm doing with opengfx which doesn't have the icons :P
14:06<supermop__>Wolf01: i drew ogfx icons
14:08<Wolf01>But they aren't on the repo yet
14:08<frosch123>yes, but we did not add them to ogfx :)
14:08<frosch123>it's already enough to have forks for ottd and nml
14:08<frosch123>ogfx can wait for trunkification
14:09<Wolf01>Dinner
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14:12<andythenorth>ogfx can wait :D
14:12<andythenorth>or other people can join the party
14:13<supermop__>;_:
14:23<frosch123>well, after trunkification and release we will have to close flyspray and infio@ for 2 months :p
14:23<frosch123>zbase noobs very already super annoying last time
14:26<andythenorth>closing flyspray is “probably fine”
14:26<andythenorth>I am surprised anyone answers info@ :o
14:26<andythenorth>but andythenorth doesn’t do email anyway
14:29<frosch123>info@ is 50% legit spam, 25% real spam, 15% questions that did not find the forums, 5% opensource stuff, 5% other stuff
14:31<@Rubidium>don't forget to fork grfcodec ;)
14:31<andythenorth>that is definitely at the top of the to-do list
14:32<andythenorth>Rubidium: it works fine with NotRoadTypes
14:32<andythenorth>you just have to use -d
14:34<@Rubidium>or rather the "must-not-use-white-spaces-while-developing" tool that is also in the grfcodec repository
14:35<andythenorth>$someone told me to not bother using that anymore :)
14:38<frosch123>hmm, i guess implementing RoadVehicle::GetMaxTrackSpeed is not enough
14:39<frosch123>probably needs some cache invalidation in various places
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15:31<frosch123>which unit to use for roadtype speed limitsß
15:32<frosch123>same as for road vehicles? or same as for railtypes?
15:34<@Rubidium>obviously https://xkcd.com/927/
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15:39<@Rubidium>though to be honest, I'd use the roadtype one so everything roadtypey uses the same units
15:40<frosch123>that read like a tautology :)
15:43<@Rubidium>but what's the pre for railtype units? It has a higher range that can't be used and lower granularity
15:43<frosch123>railtypes use the same unit as trains
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15:44<frosch123>readvehicle seem to use the train unit at least for airdrag, though likely noone very cared about that
15:44<frosch123>i guess i'll use the roadvehicle unit
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15:48<frosch123>Wolf01: what is the status of covert road?
15:49<Wolf01>Same as the patch I shown you
15:49<frosch123>the last two items on my todo list depend on it
15:49<Wolf01>It works but needs more checks for pre-conversion
15:49<frosch123>ok, i might pull it then
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>frosch123: roadvehicle unit seems like the obvious choice
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16:27*andythenorth must FIRS eh
16:27<andythenorth>unless frosch123 is there any NRT I can usefully do?
16:28<frosch123>when can we play a testgame? :)
16:28<andythenorth>we’d need a server :)
16:28<Wolf01>I already do, and always forget that I can't move everything with haul :P
16:28<andythenorth>also, the non-electric tram tracks have catenary
16:29<frosch123>questions for the testgame would be: bugs? split road vehicle list for road and tram?
16:29<Wolf01>Your fault, mine are right :P
16:29<andythenorth>as they don’t provide any action 2/3 stuff
16:29<frosch123>my non-electric trams have no catenary
16:29<frosch123>that is just an a0 flag
16:30<andythenorth>:o
16:30<andythenorth>when was that implemented? :P
16:30<Wolf01>Some time ago yesterday
16:30<andythenorth>I swear when I added NRT to Road Hog it didn’t work
16:30<frosch123>actually the default got changed again, now both road and tram do not have catenary by default
16:30<andythenorth>it was on my todo list
16:30<frosch123>i did not play with roadhog yet
16:30<andythenorth>if we wanted to play a test game currently, it had better feature forests a lot :P
16:31<andythenorth>there are no other HAUL vehicles
16:31<andythenorth>and I need a non-electric tram depot
16:31<frosch123>also already added
16:31<frosch123>https://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/nrt_depot.png <- those are the default depots now
16:32<andythenorth>ha awesome
16:32*andythenorth pulls
16:32<frosch123>only works with original graphics
16:32<andythenorth>I thought this would all have to be fixed in newgrf :)
16:32<andythenorth>my todo list is much shorter
16:32<frosch123>ogfx will draw tram track for elroad
16:33<Wolf01>:O we have tramway icon
16:33<frosch123>openttd.grf is complete :)
16:33<frosch123>i think the tramway icon is by andy from a month ago
16:33<andythenorth>this will be forum-able soon
16:34<andythenorth>day after christmas maybe? o_O
16:34<Wolf01>1/1/2017?
16:34<frosch123>when road conversion is done
16:34<frosch123>the last items are: split vehicle lists?
16:34<frosch123>and ai/gs api
16:34<frosch123>no idea about the latter :)
16:35<andythenorth>vehicle lists are not urgent imho
16:35<frosch123>i won't be here 12-26 till 01-xx :)
16:35<andythenorth>right :)
16:35<Wolf01>For compatibility (has power on stuff), do you want to check only same roadtype or both?
16:35<frosch123>the urgent stuff should be done by tomorrow evening
16:36<andythenorth>ai/gs can wait too imho
16:36<andythenorth>it’s a few months until April 1, eh?
16:37<andythenorth>so adjoining roadbits for non-compatible types
16:37<andythenorth>that still need arguing out properly?
16:37<frosch123>production varies a lot between months :)
16:38<frosch123>adjoining can be done after convert road is done
16:38<frosch123>rail does the same
16:38<andythenorth>I’m not sure what the right solution is
16:38<andythenorth>they have to adjoin, no?
16:38<frosch123>the rail solution should work
16:38<frosch123>adding roadbits upgrades to the better roadtype
16:38<frosch123>or fails if there is no better ytype
16:39<andythenorth>sounds like you have a plan
16:40<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pjqfcilc7 <- that's the plan :p
16:40<andythenorth>:)
16:41*andythenorth should do more HAUL vehicles
16:42<andythenorth>it bugs me that I can’t implement cross-compatible vehicles
16:42<andythenorth>wonder if I was doing it wrong
16:43<andythenorth>I tried defining UNIV instead of HAUL, with ROAD powering UNIV, and UNIV powering HAUL, and omitting HAUL
16:43<andythenorth>so HAUL -> powered on UNIV
16:44<andythenorth>UNIV -> powered on UNIV and ROAD
16:44<andythenorth>ROAD -> powered on ROAD
16:44<andythenorth>and no type defined for HAUL
16:44<andythenorth>didn’t seem to work
16:48<frosch123>you kind of can
16:49<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/psrnlzd4d https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p8m1zbm2i <- i posted that earlier
16:49<frosch123>only thing that is missing is a flag or similar to hide a roadtype from the build menu
16:52<frosch123>though ideally the vehicle-only types should not occupy one of the 15 subtypes that can be build on map
16:53<frosch123>by guess would be that the vehicle-only types are also not passed to any commands, so they can use higher subtype numbers and are not affected by the 15 limit
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18:26<Wolf01>'night
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