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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-26

---Logopened Mon Dec 26 00:00:34 2016
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04:48<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
04:48<Wolf01>So it is then... Eddi was right
04:50<andythenorth>he often is
04:50<andythenorth>what was he right about?
04:50<Wolf01>George Michael
04:51<andythenorth>2016 rolls on
04:51<andythenorth>also, shall we fix tooltips for main toolbar? o_O
04:51<andythenorth>(try them for tramtype onwards)
04:51<Wolf01>Nah, I like how they are ;)
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05:00<Wolf01>Uhm, it's me or the scenario editor tramway button is missing?
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05:01<andythenorth>Wolf01: it’s missing :)
05:01<Wolf01>I was sure I pushed it
05:02<andythenorth>is the commit just for the roadtypes?
05:03<andythenorth>and not the tramtypes/
05:03<andythenorth>also, mine includes ‘electrified roads’, which is curious
05:03<Wolf01>Uhm, yes, it is
05:05<Wolf01>Also roadtypes different from normal road can't be built on editor... I wonder why, it worked
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05:09<andythenorth>‘many eyes make shallow bugs’ etc :P
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05:26<Wolf01>Mmmh, I need to hide some roadtypes from editor dropdown
05:26<Wolf01>Like electric road
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06:56<frosch123>let's see how upgrading roads works
06:58<andythenorth>probably better than this wifi
06:58<andythenorth>probably better than this wifi network
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07:01<frosch123>thanks for the demonstration
07:02<andythenorth>it’s fantastic
07:05<@Alberth>congrats with the christmas present, all!
07:05<andythenorth>lo Alberth :)
07:18*andythenorth wonders what to do next
07:20<frosch123>should road and tram depots look differently?
07:20*andythenorth wondered
07:20<andythenorth>I dislike the electric tram depot quite a bit
07:20<andythenorth>but for consistencies sake I wondered about keeping it unchanged
07:22<andythenorth>the HAUL depot would make a better tram depot
07:23<andythenorth>and HAUL should look more like it fits with a mine or quarry or such
07:26<Eddi|zuHause>i always used a tram grf with slightly wider rails, which also came with a tram depot
07:34*andythenorth looks
07:35*andythenorth used Light-rail/Tramtracks grf
07:35<andythenorth>which has nice catenary, but horrible depot
07:35<andythenorth>default catenary is really horrible
07:59<Wolf01>I was about to see how I could fix the editor roadtypes dropdown before lunch, any suggestion?
08:07<frosch123>what is it supposed to show?
08:07<Wolf01>Not the electric road
08:07<Wolf01>No loaded grf with vehicles for it
08:08<frosch123>then compare GetScenRoadTypeDropDownList with GetRoadTypeDropDownList :)
08:08<frosch123>also i believe HasRoadTypeAvail disallows all roadtypes but normal road
08:09<Wolf01>Yes, you see them but you can't effectively build them
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08:15<Wolf01>:o 2 frogs
08:17<frosch>the other one was jelly of andy's wifi or so
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08:24<Wolf01>Ha! Removed haul but kept elroad
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09:45<andythenorth>too much WIP :P
09:45<andythenorth>big broken FIRS patch, big unfinished Iron Horse change
09:45<andythenorth>unfinished Road Hog
09:45<andythenorth>and Unsinkable Sam is barely a prototype
09:46<Wolf01>Did they already start to ask for more features on NRT?
09:46<andythenorth>probably :)
09:46<andythenorth>it’s a good sign
09:46<andythenorth>means it’s not ‘meh'
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09:58<frosch>gah, i can't decide whether overbuilding roadstop/bridges/tunnels with different roadtypes should error, convert or upgrade
09:58<Wolf01>Or just build
09:58<frosch>and it is so inconsistent for railtypes that it does not give a good example :p
10:01<Wolf01>Should we be able to build even tramways in editor?
10:05<frosch>they cannot be town-owned
10:05<frosch>only bankrupt-owned
10:05<Wolf01>Ok, then roads only
10:06<Wolf01>I wonder if one day we could have generated maps with connections, and maybe industries too with the possibility to take over single routes
10:10<Wolf01>Good guy adf88 provided a temporary fix for opengfx+ missing graphics :P
10:25<andythenorth>frosch: upgrade = increases compatibility, never reduces it?
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10:28<Wolf01>Yes, like RAIL->ELRL
10:29<Wolf01>For example you can't upgrade ROAD->HAUL
10:29<Wolf01>Only convert
10:37<frosch>andythenorth: in practice yes, in theory compatibilty is not transitive
10:51<andythenorth>upgrade seems like the right thing to do, but is the hardest behaviour to explain
10:51<andythenorth>actually no
10:51<andythenorth>what’s wrong with having to explicitly convert?
10:51<frosch>the best behaviour is the one that does not need explanation :)
10:51<andythenorth>or choose the right type before overbuilding
10:51<frosch>anyway, already pushed
10:51<frosch>made it the same as for railtypes
10:51*andythenorth pulls
10:52<frosch>though the behaviour for bridges and tunnels is meh in for both :p
10:58<andythenorth>so HAUL won’t build over ROAD, but ELRL will build over RAIL
10:58<andythenorth>makes sense
10:58<frosch>and building ELRL over RAIL and RAIL over ELRL both result in ELRL
11:01<frosch>ok, so... roadstops...
11:01<andythenorth>ah I was talking about roadstops :)
11:01<frosch>the gui sprites for road and rail include sprites for build tunnel, but not for build bridge
11:02<frosch>the gui sprites for rail do not include sprites for build station and build waypoint
11:02<andythenorth>ok so if road is also present on the tile, I can build RAIL stop over ELRL
11:02<frosch>i think the gui sprites for road should also not include sprites for build busstation and build truckstop
11:03<andythenorth>if road is not present I cannot build RAIL stop over ELRL
11:27<frosch>all gui sprites are meh
11:29<andythenorth>I would leave them out as far as possible
11:30<andythenorth>it’s nice if they look like what you’re building, cos it’s WYSIWG
11:30<andythenorth>but it’s more important that you can recognise them quickly, and they don’t change a lot between types
11:30<andythenorth>they’re an icon, not a preview
11:31<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> if road is not present I cannot build RAIL stop over ELRL <-- why not?
11:31<andythenorth>because it doesn’t work? o_O
11:31<frosch>it does
11:31<frosch>you can convert any station to any station by overbuilding, same as for railtypes
11:31<frosch>you can only upgrade by building a station over plain track, same as for railtypes
11:32<frosch>as said, it is as inconsistent as for railtypes :)
11:32<frosch>but road does not have anything to do with it
11:34<andythenorth>oh it’s too many variables, my report is wrong sorry :P
11:34<andythenorth>testing requires a very precise set of actions, I didn’t do them :P
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11:46<Wolf01>Needs a better error than "Cannot build road here", is it possible to tell at least "not compatible roadtypes"?
11:51*andythenorth biab, flat battery
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11:52<Eddi|zuHause>can you repair flat batteries with hotglue and tape?
11:52<frosch>Wolf01: please also add a better message for railtypes :)
11:52<Wolf01>Oh, they suffer from that disease too?
11:53<Wolf01>I only use rail (no mono/magl) so I never noticed that :P
11:53<frosch>Wolf01: i could not decide for what is the right behaviour, so i made it exactly the same as for railtypes
11:53<Wolf01>It's ok for me, at least is consistent
11:53<frosch>Eddi|zuHause: everything that easily burns is suitable to mess with batteries
11:55<Wolf01>Bah... I'm watching a dvd rip because I'm too lazy to connect the dvd player and play my own dvd... but the overall quality makes me want to do that
11:55<Eddi|zuHause>anyway, back to my original question before: what i think should happen if you build a RAIL station on a tile that has ELRL is the same as when you build a RAIL trackbit on a tile that has ELRL, so it should automatically upgrade to ELRL
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>no matter if there is ROAD or not
11:56<Wolf01>And you shouldn't be able to build HAUL roadstop over ROAD
11:57<Wolf01>But it builds ROAD roadstop instead
11:57<Wolf01>It should be changed for train too if that's the case
11:58<frosch>yep, same for rail :)
11:58<frosch>rail + elrail station -> elrail station; elrail + rail station -> command failed
11:58<frosch>rail station + elrail station -> elrail station; elrail station + rail station -> rail station
11:59<Wolf01>Which is not backwards compatible, so it will break your route
12:01<Wolf01>That could be ok for non-track tiles... but meh
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12:45<andythenorth>also now we can add subways
12:45<andythenorth>killer feature
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12:47<frosch>maybe there should be an option to assign trucks to airports, to increase the airport cargo throughput
12:48<andythenorth>transferring the baggage? o_O
12:48<frosch>i did not dare to suggest to add inner-airport roads :p
12:49<andythenorth>faster conveyor belts
12:49<andythenorth>I need that no-junctions patch, for point-to-point
12:49<andythenorth>then NRT can provide conveyors and pipes :P
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>it really should not do that...
12:50*andythenorth thinks Eddi just says that for encouragement
12:50<frosch>since when can pipes not branch?
12:50<andythenorth>reverse pyschology
12:50<andythenorth>if they branch, how does the milk know which branch to take? :o
12:51<frosch>the new one into the branch, the old one from the branch can continue
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13:06<frosch>even andy's wifi is good compared to that :)
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13:08<Wolf01><andythenorth> I need that no-junctions patch, for point-to-point <- lol
13:08<Wolf01>Got to go, dinner
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13:30<Frage>Hey all. Anyone who can help me get openttd working on Android?
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13:36<andythenorth>Don’t leave me hanging on like a yo-yo
13:36<andythenorth>Wake me up before you go-go
13:44<andythenorth>ho, what smells bad about my ship size schema?
13:44<andythenorth>I have large, small, mini, micro
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27715 trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt (2016-12-26 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish: 2 changes by SilverSurferZzZ
13:47<@Alberth>too many sizes?
13:50<@Alberth>"micro" for ships doesn't make much sense?
13:50<@Alberth>"huge" is missing?
13:50<@Alberth>/me is just making random guesses
13:50<Redirect_Left>Surely a 'micro' ship is just a dinghy?
13:50<Redirect_Left>with a single envelope of mail on it
13:51<@Alberth>you send those by pigeon :)
13:51<Redirect_Left>ah, of course.
13:52<@Alberth>hmm, aircraft set with pigeons :p
13:52<Redirect_Left>Let's spice it up a bit, use owls!
13:52<andythenorth>there’s no ‘medium'
13:52<Redirect_Left>Pigeons are so predictable and old school!
13:52<andythenorth>medium is boring
13:52<@Alberth>good idea :)
13:53<@Alberth>sounds like a nice experiment :)
13:56<andythenorth>so what will the WaterTypes spec be? o_O
13:58<frosch>i thought canal road is next?
14:05<andythenorth>is hax? :)
14:05*andythenorth needs electrified canal
14:06<andythenorth>EELS would be the label
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14:12<andythenorth>electric canals
14:12<andythenorth>there are some extant in france
14:12*andythenorth was trolling, but as usual RL trolls back stronger
14:12<Redirect_Left>wow, that's an odd idea
14:12<Redirect_Left>I assume there is some sort of huge fuse so if a certain part of it falls into the canal it won't kill all the wildlife in the water within X radius of the fault...
14:23<Snail>hey Andy, I was looking for the list of your FIRS cargo
14:23<Snail>I was referring to this:
14:23<Snail>but I fear it’s incomplete… I read somewhere you added some new cargoes like Explosives
14:23<Snail>but I can’t fing them there
14:24<frosch>try replacing "releases" with "push" in the url
14:25<Snail> —> 404 Not Found :(
14:26<frosch> <- you dropped an "l"
14:27<Snail>works, thanks
14:49<Snail>andythenorth: maybe a silly question… but don’t you think the Vehicles Factory could also churn out Engineering / Farm supplies?
14:49<andythenorth>it could
14:49<Snail>like excavators, tractors...
14:49<andythenorth>but it doesn’t currently
14:49<Snail>any plans to do that?
14:50<andythenorth>there is the Machine Shop for that
14:50<andythenorth>it would be hard to decide whether to drop FMSP or ENSP
14:50<andythenorth>it’s better to avoid the question
14:51<Snail>ah…. because industries can only produce two products?
14:57<andythenorth>not sure what to do for pax ships
14:57<andythenorth>my notes say ‘probably all ideas are wrong’ :P
14:58<andythenorth>last idea was
14:58<andythenorth>- fast, very uncomfortable, normal loading
14:59<andythenorth>- medium, +/-0 on comfort (cargo penalty), fast loading
14:59<andythenorth>- slow, very comfortable (cargo payment bonus), slow loading
14:59<andythenorth>and 3 sizes of each
15:01<andythenorth>so hydrofoil/hovercraft; commuter ferry; pax liner
15:01*andythenorth is seriously unconvinced
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15:08<fleet75>idk but for some reason or another nuts train set seems give me a less than a frame a second, but only on servers
15:13<frosch>and why would you blame that onto a train set?
15:16<fleet75>if i join a server without the nuts train set which is 32bpp it works as expected
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15:17<frosch>try disabling "full animation" in the menu
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15:18<fleet75>kk thx
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15:31<fleet75>actually i have no idea that its nuts trains set but i think it might be
15:32<fleet75>i have gone through all the different blitters and none of them have an affect on the framerate
15:32<fleet75>the framerate dies as soon as you enter the server, going from like 2fps to 2 seconds a frame
15:34<_dp_>fleet75, which server is it? Did you try any other servers with nuts?
15:35<peter1139>sprite cache size?
15:37<fleet75>i tried it on openttdcoop welcome server, public server, and pro zone server
15:38<fleet75>the welcome server works absolutely fine, however the public and pro zone servers framerate do what i just said
15:39<Eddi|zuHause>i'd also suspect the sprite cache
15:39<Lejving>should mention that it worked fine offline fleet75 right?
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>but make sure that it's not just their massive networks that slowing things dow
15:40<Eddi|zuHause>(i did type that n, but then sausage-fingered backspace when hitting enter)
15:41<fleet75>yup was going to mention that at one point i downloaded the pro zone server and it run as expected, and just ran the public server offline and it worked fine
15:41<Eddi|zuHause>there's also a way to force the game to run in 8bpp mode, but it involves secret config settings
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>that may or may not actually improve things
15:42<fleet75>tried that, no effect
15:42<fleet75>might not even be the nuts train set
15:42<_dp_>fleet75, check citymania #0 it has nuts also
15:42<Eddi|zuHause>more likely to be the industry set
15:42<_dp_>most of it is disabled though...
15:43<fleet75>prozone runs yeti, but public server doesnt
15:44<Eddi|zuHause>fleet75: even if you specify 8bpp blitter on the command line, the game will still turn on 32bpp mode if a newgrf requests it, there's a separate config setting to override that
15:45<fleet75>i changed the blitter setting in the openttd.cfg file if thats what you mean
15:45<Eddi|zuHause>yes, that's not enough
15:46<fleet75>oh wheres the second config?
15:46<fleet75>i thought it was as all the buttons seemed lower quality and the trains looked like they were in 8bpp
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's the "support8bpp" option
15:49<Eddi|zuHause>but you need to look at what the values are
15:50<Eddi|zuHause>it was something like no/software/hardware or something
15:50<fleet75>oh kk
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15:51<Eddi|zuHause>it might be called differently, or changed
15:51<Eddi|zuHause>my info on that is very old
15:53<fleet75>yh its support8bpp u=i need to change it to system
15:54<fleet75>it still doesnt seem to do anything
15:54<fleet75>alot of other people on #openttdcoop seem to be having the same issue
15:56<andythenorth>frosch: you’re away for some time now?
15:57<frosch>yep, gone in an hour for 7..9 days
15:59<frosch>my nrt todo list does not contain anything important, so people can play for a week :p
16:00<andythenorth>happy new year :)
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16:01<frosch>btw. i made the "overlay" sprites optional
16:02<frosch>at least i think i did :p
16:02<andythenorth>ok so I could drop those from Road Hog
16:03*andythenorth learning about ship size names
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16:08<peter1139>120km today
16:09<frosch>on your home trainer?
16:09<peter1139>Nah, just my bicycle.
16:09<peter1139>I actually leave my house these days.
16:09<__ln__>sounds dangerous
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16:14<peter1139>12,650km this year
16:15<frosch>so you do that trip every 3 days?
16:17<frosch>did you get a job as bicycle courier?
16:18<frosch>otherwise that is quite a lot
16:19<Wolf01>He's the newspaper delivery kid
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16:23<peter1139>Nah, 12km cycle commute to the office, plus weekend rides.
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16:35*andythenorth driven away by flakey wifi
16:36<andythenorth>bye :)
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17:43<Supercheese>What is this madness?
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17:44<Wolf01>What? Where?
17:45<Wolf01>Didn't ever notice that
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---Logclosed Tue Dec 27 00:00:35 2016