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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-27

---Logopened Tue Dec 27 00:00:35 2016
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02:52<andythenorth>o/
02:54<Supercheese>Road
02:54<Supercheese>Types
02:54<andythenorth>Not
02:55<Supercheese>oh ok
02:55<Supercheese>Toad
02:55<Supercheese>Rypes
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03:01<BONGA>Hi
03:02<BONGA>So much ppl here and so few people really playing xD
03:02<Supercheese>well, if you're intently playing...
03:02<Supercheese>...you probably won't be monitoring IRC that intently
03:03<BONGA>First time i join irc since like 2005
03:03<BONGA>Im at mobile
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03:04-!-Alberth is "purple" on @#openttd
03:04<@Alberth>o/
03:05<BONGA>Great teenage times asking for voices and ops lol
03:05<BONGA>Hey gmorning
03:06<BONGA>Can we talk with ppl ingame from here
03:06<BONGA>!players
03:07<Supercheese>wrong channel maybe?
03:07<Supercheese>Reddit might have that feature
03:07<Supercheese>or no
03:07<Supercheese>coop?
03:08<BONGA>Yes reedit
03:08<Supercheese>#/r/openttd ?
03:20<andythenorth>lo Alberth
03:25<@Alberth>moin andy
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03:38<andythenorth>wow such newgrf
03:38<andythenorth>much commits
03:38<andythenorth>very regret
03:38<andythenorth>not branches
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04:17<@Alberth>:O
04:17<@Alberth>bbl
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05:34<Wolf01>o/
05:36<andythenorth>rar
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05:52<andythenorth>hrm
05:52<andythenorth>if multiprocessing is slower not faster (for some cases)
05:52<andythenorth>why am I using it for them? :P
05:53<Wolf01>Wat?
05:54<andythenorth>in newgrf compile
05:54<andythenorth>python
05:55<andythenorth>there are some tasks where I start 16 processes in an attempt to go faster
05:55<andythenorth>but the overhead of starting 16 pythons and loading the modules
05:55<andythenorth>is much higher than the run time of all the tasks in a single process
05:55<andythenorth>‘but it goes to 11’ :P
05:56<Wolf01>Eh
05:58<Wolf01>https://docs.python.org/2/library/multiprocessing.html doing this?
06:07<andythenorth>yes
06:07<andythenorth>for some things it’s much faster
06:07<andythenorth>for others...not
06:08<Eddi|zuHause>if the overhead gets too big, you should separate the jobs into larger chunks
06:08<Wolf01>It's a mix of chinese and arabic for me :P
06:09<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause: agreed; in this case I think mp is substantially over-engineering for the actual problem
06:09<andythenorth>it’s a templating run-time of 1-4s depending on size of grf
06:13<andythenorth>hmmm
06:13<andythenorth>simply importing a module shouldn’t really modify the local filesystem, right?
06:14<andythenorth>bad behaviour?
06:14<Eddi|zuHause>probably...
06:15<Eddi|zuHause>unless you need like a lock file or something
06:16<andythenorth>nope
06:16<andythenorth>just paying down old debts
06:20<andythenorth>hmm
06:20<andythenorth>‘consists’ not ‘ships
06:20<andythenorth>more copy-paste friendly between my grfs
06:21<andythenorth>can $someone articulate ships o_O
06:26<Wolf01>Just wetrails?
06:28<andythenorth>one day, ships will be good
06:28<andythenorth>in the far future :P
06:30<Wolf01>I hope we could restore some appealing for roads now, the game is too unbalanced toward rails
06:34<andythenorth>depends on play style I think
06:34<andythenorth>I find from 1960s onwards I build a lot more roads
06:34<andythenorth>I usually start around 1900 with trains and ships
06:35<Eddi|zuHause>steam dead again?
06:36<Wolf01>Works for me
06:36<andythenorth>works for me
06:36*andythenorth deletes a bunch of architectural stuff from newgrf compile
06:36<Eddi|zuHause>shop works, but account stuff is down
06:37<andythenorth>when you have a 4 line dispatcher calling a 1 line function, something is wrong :P
06:56<andythenorth>all compile scripts now consistent :P
06:56<andythenorth>it’s like having clean clothers
06:56<andythenorth>clothes *
07:06<andythenorth>Wolf01: HAUL depot doesn’t auto-connect to adjacent roadtile for me
07:06<andythenorth>can you replicate?
07:23<Wolf01>HAUL to ROAD? Only HAUL depot?
07:24<andythenorth>HAUL to HAUL
07:24<andythenorth>default ROAD to ROAD works fine
07:24<Wolf01>Nice
07:28<Wolf01>Where the fuck is the call to connect to existing road O_o
07:28<andythenorth>IHNI :)
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07:29<TTD_Dev>hi
07:29<TTD_Dev>How can I compile Openttd on the newest Visual studio 2017 RC IDE.
07:29<TTD_Dev>I get compatibility problems.
07:30<Wolf01>andythenorth, the problem is that it connects to ROAD :D
07:30<andythenorth>Wolf01: which line / file?
07:30<Wolf01>I'm looking for it
07:30<andythenorth>I can’t see it in road_cmd.cpp
07:30<TTD_Dev>Why is no one reading my question?
07:31<andythenorth>they are
07:31<TTD_Dev>and why is Openttd source not supporting VS 2017
07:31<andythenorth>but nobody who is reading it knows the answer
07:31<Wolf01><andythenorth> I can’t see it in road_cmd.cpp <- that was the source of my previous reaction :D
07:31<TTD_Dev>@andynorth
07:32<TTD_Dev>wich IDE are your using?
07:32<andythenorth>I don’t use an IDE
07:32<TTD_Dev>How are writing code then?
07:32<andythenorth>text editor
07:32<TTD_Dev>:)
07:32*andythenorth doesn’t understand IDEs
07:32<andythenorth>I am not clever enough to use one
07:33<TTD_Dev>But you're clever enough to program in C++
07:33<andythenorth>no
07:33<TTD_Dev>one of the most dificult C-language
07:33<andythenorth>I am not an ottd dev
07:33<TTD_Dev>?
07:33<TTD_Dev>What are you then?
07:34<LordAro>yeah andythenorth, what are you? :p
07:34<andythenorth>dunno
07:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: try looking for ConnectRoadToStructure
07:35<andythenorth>at a guess
07:35<LordAro>TTD_Dev: i suspect the actual answer to your question is that no one's tried using VS2017 with OTTD yet
07:35<LordAro>or at least, not to the point that anyone shared how to
07:36<andythenorth>Wolf01: yeah it’s a generic problem also affecting roadstops
07:36<andythenorth>so ConnectRoadToStructure is probably needing updated
07:37<LordAro>TTD_Dev: especially since it's only an RC, and doesn't have a full release yet
07:37<TTD_Dev>But is it working on 2015?
07:37<andythenorth>reddit might know? https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/wiki/client
07:37<Wolf01>andythenorth, I know, but I can't find the callback for the depot
07:38<LordAro>TTD_Dev: http://wiki.openttd.org/Compiling_on_Windows_using_Microsoft_Visual_C%2B%2B_2015 looks like it
07:38<Wolf01>Does it use the roadstop one?
07:38<TTD_Dev>Nice
07:38<andythenorth>Wolf01: CcRoadDepot
07:38<andythenorth>in road_gui.cpp
07:38<Wolf01>I'm blind
07:38<TTD_Dev>How can I add my fixed bugs to the repo
07:38<andythenorth>Wolf01: somewhere I learnt the trick of searching by CommandCost
07:39<andythenorth>because of the weird thing in ottd code with how commands are handled
07:39<andythenorth>the chains are not always obvious
07:39<LordAro>TTD_Dev: post the patches at http://bugs.openttd.org/ if they're deemed good enough, they'll get committed
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07:39<Wolf01>He... passes the basetype only
07:39<andythenorth>LordAro: possibly not, depends on there being any active devs ;)
07:40<LordAro>andythenorth: true
07:40<andythenorth>mostly, these days, there aren’t ;)
07:40<LordAro>frosch turns up occasionally
07:41<Wolf01>Ok, let's try to pass the right value
07:42<Wolf01>Ok, it didn't explode and seem to work
07:44<Wolf01>Pushed the fix
07:46<TTD_Dev>Are you also having an Eclipse
07:46<TTD_Dev>guide
07:46<TTD_Dev>Because i'm downgrading my visualstudio at the moment to 2015
07:46<TTD_Dev>but I want to code in the meantime
07:47<andythenorth>https://wiki.openttd.org/Eclipse
07:47<andythenorth>dunno if that’s up to date
07:47<andythenorth>I just googled it ;)
07:48<TTD_Dev>why is the -d command not working in Openttd
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07:48<TTD_Dev>because i want to debug the softwar
07:48<TTD_Dev>e
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07:49<andythenorth>Wolf01: sorted
07:49<andythenorth>wfm
07:54<Wolf01>We have a shitload of problems to fix and features to complete
07:55<TTD_Dev>I want to make a Kanban board
07:55<TTD_Dev>for this project; OpenTTD
07:55<TTD_Dev>on Taiga
07:55<TTD_Dev>to structure things and improve our workflows
07:55<TTD_Dev>Am I having permission to do that?
07:55<Wolf01>I think noone would use it
07:56<TTD_Dev>and why?
07:56<TTD_Dev>A Kanban board gives a clear view to see what a Dev can do
07:56<TTD_Dev>we can also use JIRA.
07:57<LordAro>or... we could not
07:57<Wolf01>Devs here aren't full time committed to ottd
07:57<TTD_Dev>The currently used system is so chaotic.
07:58<LordAro>is it?
07:58<TTD_Dev>that's true, i'm also having a full-time job as an executive of a SMB.
07:58<LordAro>i think you're very new and so don't understand it properly
07:58<Wolf01>And we use the tracker/forum/chat to decide what to do next
07:58<TTD_Dev>Programming is only a hobby for me :-)
07:58<Wolf01>Also for us
07:59<TTD_Dev>What are you doing for a living?
07:59<Wolf01>Other jobs
07:59<TTD_Dev>Which jobs?
08:00<Wolf01>To speak for myself, nothing at the moment, so I use my time to do house chores, playing and writing code for different projects
08:01<Wolf01>Other people are designers, (train) drivers, chemists
08:02<TTD_Dev>Am I the only executive?
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08:03<TTD_Dev>Here :)
08:03<Wolf01>I don't know
08:03<andythenorth>kanban board works when people are paid
08:03<andythenorth>or for single-person projects
08:03<TTD_Dev>But is that unique to see executives programming code?
08:03<andythenorth>what we’d learn from a kanban board here is that lead time is highly inconsistent
08:04<andythenorth>:P
08:04<andythenorth>and that the backlog only grows :P
08:04<TTD_Dev>:) P
08:04<TTD_Dev>:P
08:04<TTD_Dev>We are having 42 pages in that bug-system.
08:04<andythenorth>also controlling WIP is fairly meaningless
08:04<andythenorth>here
08:05<TTD_Dev>https://bugs.openttd.org/proj1?do=index
08:05<andythenorth>there’s no common measure of value :P
08:05<Lejving>request: an option to turn off bridge speed (so you can pick any bridge and it follows the current speed for the rail type)
08:05<Lejving>similar to turn off wagon speed
08:05<_dp_>"Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" that should be on bugtracker main page :p
08:05<andythenorth>it’s only 833
08:05<Wolf01>:)
08:05<andythenorth>it’s not that many
08:06<LordAro>TTD_Dev: that does go back mroe than a decade though
08:06<LordAro>i do agree that someone should probably go through them all and close (probably) most of them
08:06<andythenorth>and nobody gets paid to close it
08:06<andythenorth>or what LordAro said
08:06<LordAro>but ^
08:06<LordAro>:)
08:07<TTD_Dev>But that's a chaotic workflow.
08:07<LordAro>welcome to open source
08:07<andythenorth>hey Wolf01 look https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1374?project=1&pagenum=40
08:08<Wolf01>Nope :D
08:08<LordAro>andythenorth: is your stuff going to enable roads that are more than one tile wide? :p
08:08<andythenorth>nah
08:08<TTD_Dev>but why are you using Flyspray/
08:08<andythenorth>someone probably set it up one day
08:08<LordAro>because someone chose that in 2006, presumably
08:08<andythenorth>likely nobody who is here today knows
08:09<TTD_Dev>and not bugzilla or mantis
08:09<andythenorth>it’s just software eh
08:09<TTD_Dev>It looks like 1980
08:09<TTD_Dev>back to the future.
08:09<Wolf01>"I believe this has been implentend with one-way roads (hold down ctrl while dragging the road)"... so another hidden feature existed and I didn't even know about it?
08:09<andythenorth>well it has a responsive skin :)
08:10<TTD_Dev>833 open tasks
08:10<TTD_Dev>:P
08:10<TTD_Dev>This will take years
08:10<LordAro>there is a 1.0 rc out for flyspray, which has been reskinned
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08:11<andythenorth>477 of them are feature requests
08:11<LordAro>TTD_Dev: most are "feature requests" which probably don't really belong in the bug tracker
08:11<LordAro>andythenorth: :D
08:11<andythenorth>at least 470 won’t get done, I would bet $1000
08:11<TTD_Dev>that's why a public Kanban is working.
08:11<TTD_Dev>or Scrum
08:11<Wolf01>LordAro, FS 1.0RC is shit... I'm stuck with 0.9.9.x because *a lot* of broken things... but it has some new interesting features
08:12<TTD_Dev>Where every developer get it's own Kanban -> Connecting with a master Kanban Server)
08:12<andythenorth>TTD_Dev sounds like a solution in need of a problem :)
08:12<TTD_Dev>It is
08:12<andythenorth>‘every developer’ is currently ~1 person
08:12<TTD_Dev>There +-20
08:13<TTD_Dev>devs
08:13<TTD_Dev>see wiki
08:13<andythenorth>nah
08:13<andythenorth>there’s one remaining maintainer
08:13<andythenorth>and a few others who contribute or review occasionally
08:13<andythenorth>and a sysadmin
08:14<TTD_Dev>This project is started in 2006
08:14<TTD_Dev>?
08:14<andythenorth>older
08:14<LordAro><2004, actually
08:14<andythenorth>not sure when, I’ll search
08:14<LordAro>first public in march(?) 04
08:14<TTD_Dev>2004
08:14<andythenorth>faster than me
08:14<TTD_Dev>but why is the UI
08:14<TTD_Dev>Not updated
08:15<LordAro>why would it be?
08:15<LordAro>also, you've clearly never played TTD
08:15<andythenorth>UI of flyspray?
08:15<TTD_Dev>I play OTTD.
08:15<LordAro>oh, flyspray?
08:15<LordAro>what are we talking about here
08:15<TTD_Dev>No, the UI
08:15<TTD_Dev>of OTTD
08:16<andythenorth>ship tunnels eh? https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1212
08:16<Wolf01>Oh the UI was updated many times
08:16<Wolf01>It's the appearance which is almost the same ;)
08:16<LordAro>^
08:16<andythenorth>surely this should be closed :P https://bugs.openttd.org/task/1279
08:17<LordAro>i believe so :)
08:17<andythenorth>I don’t have admin rights on FS
08:17<Wolf01>Slap Bjarni
08:17<LordAro>@seen bjarni
08:17<@DorpsGek>LordAro: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 5 years, 11 weeks, 6 days, 12 hours, 58 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
08:18<LordAro>heh.
08:19<Wolf01>See the problem?
08:23<__ln__>how about acquiring a cake and delivering it to bjarni's home address?
08:23<__ln__>would that help?
08:24<LordAro>i mean, probably
08:24<LordAro>wouldn't hurt
08:24<LordAro>cake never hurts
08:24<Wolf01>How about acquire bjarni's home address first?
08:24<__ln__>Wolf01: it's googleable
08:25<__ln__>besides, how many streets can there be in denmark
08:26<TTD_Dev>But why are you using IRC
08:26<TTD_Dev>and not Gitter
08:26<TTD_Dev>.im
08:26<Wolf01>The 282nd Map of the Week is from the second Jörðgarð (TM) Trails adventure on the Fallen Empire Trail, "Draug Hunters." The map shows the house of the Æsir ranger Bjarni and his wife, the warrior Ölveig, on their island in the Misty Spring lake area.
08:26<Wolf01>Dunno...
08:27<Wolf01>Because we were using irc since before most things were invented?
08:27<__ln__>TTD_Dev: wtf is gitter .im?
08:27<TTD_Dev>Gitter is a nice chat software
08:28<TTD_Dev>https://gitter.im/
08:28<TTD_Dev>Made by Developers for Developers
08:28<__ln__>it can't be, because software is a non-countable noun.
08:28<LordAro>gitter is another boring irc clone
08:28<LordAro>like slack, hipchat, discord, and gitter
08:28<TTD_Dev>yes
08:29<LordAro>irc is and will outlast them
08:29<TTD_Dev>IRC is old-fashioned
08:29<TTD_Dev>and not safe
08:29<Wolf01>Oh we know, but we have fun too
08:29<LordAro>not safe?
08:29<__ln__>TTD_Dev: yes, there's a constant risk of being kicked
08:29<TTD_Dev>No
08:30<TTD_Dev>It's using oldfashioned protocols
08:30<LordAro>boo hoo
08:30<TTD_Dev>and the UI is boring
08:30*LordAro blinks
08:30<LordAro>irc doesn't have a UI
08:30<LordAro>it's literally just the protocol
08:30<Wolf01>We don't have things to hide here, it's an open source project
08:31<TTD_Dev>Gitter is also like webchat.oftc.net
08:31<__ln__>TTD_Dev: email is even more old-fashioned than irc.
08:31<FLHerne>TTD_Dev: "Old-fashioned" is a *good* thing - it means there's support everywhere and for everything
08:32<FLHerne>I've been on IRC from my (eInk, not Fire) Kindle before
08:32<LordAro>and doesn't require a web browser to use
08:33<__ln__>TTD_Dev: can you access gitter using Microsoft's Comic Chat?
08:33<FLHerne>There are IRC libs for every non-toy language, so you can hook IRC up to just about everything (e.g. the commit bots here, #/r/openttd's bridge to insert IRC chat into the in-game chat)
08:33<FLHerne>(and vice versa)
08:34<FLHerne>The UI is absolutely anything you like, it's a protocol, that's the point...
08:34<FLHerne>If you're on a Reddit OTTD server, the UI is openttd's chat UI (which is pretty boring, but eh)
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08:36<TTD_Dev>comic is discontinued
08:36<FLHerne>If you want a fancy touch-enabled UI with emoticons, great, that exists
08:36<Wolf01>Yeah, and I use it :P
08:36<TTD_Dev>Jabber
08:36<Wolf01>Not right now, but on my tablet
08:37<TTD_Dev>A long time ago we were using IRC for our in-company communication
08:37<FLHerne>Was thinking of http://tchat.website/, but I expect there are at least half-a-dozen decent ones
08:38<TTD_Dev>But today we are using Slack and Whatsapp for our in-company communication
08:38<andythenorth>IRC sucks inside a company
08:38<TTD_Dev>why/
08:38<andythenorth>it’s hard to secure a server, anyone can join
08:38<TTD_Dev>We had using it with a proxyserver
08:38<Wolf01>NetMeeting
08:38<TTD_Dev>and VPN
08:38<andythenorth>if you add auth, you have to support auth, and you might as well use a better chat protocol
08:39<TTD_Dev>and we had auth-modules
08:39<andythenorth>if you add VPN, now you’re supporting a VPN just for IRC
08:39<TTD_Dev>That's why we have migrated
08:39<andythenorth>and you have to teach staff to use a VPN
08:39<andythenorth>and maintain a VPN
08:39*andythenorth is waiting to see if slack has actually won
08:39<TTD_Dev>the costs were $200.000 fo a year alone.
08:39<andythenorth>or whether discord is better
08:39<TTD_Dev>That's why we have migrated to cheaper solutions.
08:40*andythenorth wants a teamspeak app, but whether it should be integrated with chat or not…who knows
08:41<FLHerne>Most KDE channels use a Telegram<->IRC bridge, apparently people like the former on mobile
08:42<LordAro>i feel like you were doing something wrong if a vpn + irc server cost you $200k/year
08:43<__ln__>or was it $200 with three decimals
08:46<andythenorth>ho ho, there really used to be a lot more contributors eh
08:46<andythenorth>there was much more scope I guess
08:47*andythenorth still in FS
08:47<TTD_Dev>no we had a very complex implementation
08:47<TTD_Dev>with 60 servers
08:47<TTD_Dev>1/3 where IRC and relayed and cached
08:48<TTD_Dev>We had also End -> End node configurations
08:48<__ln__>how many people were using this $200k irc?
08:48<TTD_Dev>and we had CAS
08:48<TTD_Dev>10.000
08:48<TTD_Dev>people
08:48<TTD_Dev>We had 2 project
08:48<TTD_Dev>s
08:49<TTD_Dev>1/2 of 10.000 where on IRC and 1/2 on Slack (Pilot and Testing)
08:49<LordAro>10k people could be a bit tricky
08:49<__ln__>quite some projects
08:49<LordAro>not sure how many are concurrently on freenode
08:50<__ln__>$200k for 10k people is only $20 per employee per year, isn't that pretty negligible
08:51<LordAro>http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode "During last connections to freenode its servers reported an average of 83033 users and 52962 chat rooms."
08:53<LordAro>http://irc.netsplit.de/networks/top10.php?year=2006 far cry from the old days though
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09:00*andythenorth wonders how many of the requests are from george :)
09:01<LordAro>:D
09:01<andythenorth>they all look legit
09:01<andythenorth>but eh
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09:04<@Alberth>o/
09:05<andythenorth>lo Alberth
09:06<Wolf01>o/
09:10<Eddi|zuHause><Wolf01> Other people are designers, (train) drivers, chemists <-- for the record, i'm not a chemist, i just happen to do programming in the chemistry industry
09:10*andythenorth wasting time reading old FS issues
09:10*andythenorth should be writing graphics generation script for ships :P
09:12<andythenorth>what would happen if we just mass-closed most of FS? o_O
09:12<__ln__>Eddi|zuHause: so they don't mind if you use the classical 4-element system in your code. (5 if counting milla jovovich)
09:13<andythenorth>I love how much george got the newgrf spec pushed forward
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: i don't think they would actually notice what's in my code :p
09:13<andythenorth>but seeing how many requests he has…
09:13<andythenorth>I’m not sure it’s always going in a good direction :P
09:13<Eddi|zuHause>__ln__: they're reasonably impressed by the right thing happening when they press a button
09:14<Wolf01>One of my teachers was a developer for industrial machines, at the time he worked for a mining explosive packager, he was our hero :P
09:14<andythenorth>yeah no https://bugs.openttd.org/task/5698
09:14<andythenorth>who has admin on FS? o_O
09:17*andythenorth bored of FS now :P
09:21<_dp_>oh, nice, people are posting bugs that I was too lazy to report)
09:21<Wolf01>That's a bad behaviour :(
09:22<_dp_>well, I usually post bugs with patches ;)
09:34<andythenorth>deck cargo
09:34<andythenorth>http://c8.alamy.com/comp/DC92G4/timber-cargo-ship-in-svir-river-volga-baltic-waterway-russia-DC92G4.jpg
09:34<andythenorth>http://stockcargo.eu/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/roro-mutipurpese-vsl-e1418918795351.jpg
09:34<andythenorth>isn’t needed, right?
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09:52<_dp_>is there an easy way to get industry type id when grf is used?
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09:53<_dp_>not from gs or anything, just want to know the numbre
09:56<andythenorth>_dp_: no
09:56<andythenorth>it’s not in the newgrf debug window
09:56<andythenorth>nor in the land info window
09:57<andythenorth>you need it for specific grf, or generally?
09:58<_dp_>for specific grf
09:59<andythenorth>if it’s FIRS, easy :P
09:59<_dp_>no, it's not)
09:59<andythenorth>otherwise grfcodec -d is your friend
09:59<andythenorth>and reading some nfo :P
10:00<_dp_>I'd rather add it to land info :p
10:00<andythenorth>probably not a hard patch
10:00<andythenorth>it wouldn’t be bad to have it in the newgrf debug window
10:00<_dp_>actually, I's my grf, if i set id in item() how does it translate to ttd id?
10:01*andythenorth checks
10:01<andythenorth>ID should come out as inside ottd ID
10:01<andythenorth>I don’t know if the game transposes them or anything
10:02<andythenorth>what are you trying to do?
10:02<andythenorth>o_O
10:03<_dp_>spawn some industries manually
10:03<_dp_>in server patch I mean)
10:04<_dp_>and override random spawn chances)
10:04<andythenorth>you can override random spawn chance in newgrf if you want
10:04<andythenorth>might not give enough control though
10:05<_dp_>well, yeah, but I already have them in config for other grfs
10:06<andythenorth>biab
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10:12<_dp_>oh god, how do I even get it in newgrf debug window. there's some alien code there %)
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10:28<@Alberth>isn't it listed in the newgrf window?
10:28<@Alberth>iirc there is a command-line util for it too
10:31<@Alberth>ah, "grfid", part of the grfcodec project
10:31<_dp_>Alberth, not in newgrf debug
10:32<_dp_>but it seems to match id in nml if there is only one industry grf
10:32<@Alberth>no, the regular newgrf window, where you select the newgrfs that you want in the game
10:34<_dp_>Alberth, no, why would it be there? I'm talking about industly type id, not grfid
10:38<@Alberth>:O
10:39*LordAro waves at Alberth
10:39<_dp_>actually, I don't even know what I'm talking about anymore %)
10:39<@Alberth>hi hi, LordAro
10:39<LordAro>how's Alberth ?
10:40<@Alberth>_dp_: it may be easier to identify industries by accepted and produced cargoes
10:40<@Alberth>oh, I am fine, should make some dinner soon-ish
10:40<_dp_>Alberth, not sure that will help here
10:41<_dp_>Alberth, right now I'm getting the same industry I wan't except that it's not from grf and it says "invalid insdustry" %)
10:41<_dp_>but it looks like real one and accepts everything as it should)))
10:41<andythenorth>IDs should be fine with only one industry grf
10:42<andythenorth>but eh, I don’t know for sure
10:42<andythenorth>multiple grfs, it will have to pool them somehow
10:42<andythenorth>you probably can’t rely on it, unelss you are in complete control of the grfs
10:42*andythenorth is guessing though
10:42<_dp_>gladly I have it
10:42<@Alberth>there is also a "is valid" flag that you may want to check :)
10:42<andythenorth>peter1139 might know, but he might not remember or care :)
10:43<peter1139>nah
10:44<_dp_>what I'm not getting here is why does it spawn different industry even if I pass same IndustryType
10:47<andythenorth>ach is the cargo present for cargo_subtype_text
10:47*andythenorth needs it
10:48<andythenorth>docs don’t say
10:49<_dp_>oh, or I'm not...
10:49<andythenorth>I can’t show the cargo capacity with correct units if I don’t have the cargo :D
10:49<_dp_>aren't INDUSTRYTYPE_* nml constants the same as IT_* ones in ttd code?
10:52<andythenorth>gah
10:53<andythenorth>well that’s crap eh :P
10:54<andythenorth>cargo subtypes are a terrible idea anyway
10:57<_dp_>ok, constants are the same but looks like it doesn't always keep nml id for industry even if there is only one grf
10:58<andythenorth>have you explicitly set the ID in the nml?
10:58<_dp_>I do item(FEAT_INDUSTRIES, sugar_mine, 36) but get 10 in game
10:59<_dp_>mb coz they aren't continuous, it seemed to keep auto-assigned ones
11:03<_dp_>definitely it, if I set 0 1 2 3 5 I get 0 1 2 3 4
11:06<andythenorth>so could cb 19 provide the cargo?
11:07<andythenorth>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Cargo_Subtype_Display_.2819.29
11:08<andythenorth>(as a var)
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>wasn't that an andy-feature so he doesn't have to reshuffle industry ids when he enables/disables industries in the grf?
11:12<Eddi|zuHause>so the grf can define higher industry IDs
11:13<Eddi|zuHause>and the game distributes them among the available ones, as long as there are not too many industries in general
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11:23<andythenorth>the industry limit was increased
11:23<andythenorth>dunno if that affects pooling of the IDs or not
11:24<andythenorth>can text stack even be used in CB 19?
11:24<andythenorth>not sure what it does to the registers when it cycles through the subtypes
11:24*andythenorth getting odd results
11:24<andythenorth>CB 19 = vehicle subtype text
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11:41<lorran78>hello i have always a bug while compilings opengfx+rv, i tested all available version from bundles...and no one works without bug :(
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: well, increasing the industry limit is impossible without this pooling
11:41<Eddi|zuHause>i don't know if it was there before
11:42<Eddi|zuHause>but also i don't know why anyone would care...
11:45<lorran78>i have that sort of bug : https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pyca4o94u
11:48<lorran78>that when i test bash : make and https://paste.openttdcoop.org/plsy3dzc5 when i use nmlc open...rv.nml (created by the bash command)
11:52*Wolf01 is bored
11:54<V453000>https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=196371
11:55<V453000>testing wacom :)
11:55<Wolf01>Nice details
11:56<Eddi|zuHause>have i ever mentioned that there are too few sleepers in the rails?
11:56<@Alberth>lorran78: so likely, "make" fails to create the png, and then nml then fails to find it, of course
11:56<V453000>it has reasons eddi
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11:58<andythenorth>Wolf01: fix CB 19? o_O
11:58<andythenorth>V453000: both sides are nice :) :P
11:58<lorran78>for the nml i suppose it's logical
11:58<@Alberth>lorran78: confirmed, I have that error too, while it worked before
11:58<V453000>._.
11:59<lorran78>i see
11:59<Wolf01>I can't even understand of what you are talking about, btw not in the mood for coding
11:59<V453000>back later
11:59<@Alberth>use _V= make to run make
11:59<andythenorth>Wolf01: play openttd? o_O
11:59<Wolf01>Maybe
11:59<andythenorth>watch YT
11:59<Wolf01>Already done
11:59*andythenorth defaults to watching YT
12:00<@Alberth>lorran78: "_V=" enables echoing of the commands being executed
12:00<lorran78>okay i've done it
12:01<@Alberth>so at least you can see what it's doing :)
12:01<lorran78>you have this error too? TypeError: Required argument 'year' (pos 1) not found
12:02<@Alberth>no "year" in my output
12:02<lorran78>strange then
12:02<lorran78>wait
12:03<@Alberth>do you run it from a hg checkout?
12:03<lorran78>i launch it from bash command
12:04<@Alberth>yeah, but is the directory a checkout?
12:04<@Alberth>or did you use a zip or so?
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12:04<lorran78>it's the result directory of the tar source file
12:04<@Alberth>it may query the VCS for date information
12:04<@Alberth>ok, no hg meta information thus
12:05<lorran78>hum the compiling bug at end :/
12:06<lorran78>[NML] ogfx-rv.grf /f/_Mes Documents/_DL/____OpenTTD/nml-0.4.4-windows-win32/nmlc.exe -c --grf ogfx -rv.grf ogfx-rv.nml /bin/bash: /f/_Mes: No such file or directory make: *** [ogfx-rv.grf] Error 127 bash-3.1$ exit
12:06<@Alberth>it probably does something that fails internally while generating the png file
12:06<lorran78>i tried to change directory and put it on F:\"original folder" and same :/
12:06<lorran78>yes probably :
12:07<lorran78>:/
12:07<@Alberth>well, it tries to be smart in lots of things, like path to gimp, version of files, etc
12:07<@Alberth>maybe path to conversion script
12:07<lorran78>i must have gimp or some "n" software?
12:07<@Alberth>oh, did you install gimp?
12:07<lorran78>i saw it's missing
12:08<@Alberth>for me too, so that's common
12:08<@Alberth>I installed a new system, and didn't add gimp
12:08<lorran78>nope don't need it for the other opengfx+ so i don't have gimp
12:08<lorran78>must i have it?
12:09<@Alberth>some opengfx projects use it to generate png files
12:09<@Alberth>not exactly sure which ones
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12:09<lorran78>okay then i'll install it
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12:10<@Alberth>the ".gimp." in the filename suggests this project uses it
12:11<lorran78>okay noticed
12:13<lorran78>i'll test when gimp will be installed then (installing in progress)
12:14<andythenorth>eh, ships that go faster empty than loaded
12:14<andythenorth>BAD FEATURE?
12:14<andythenorth>it’s coded, but I am tempted to delete it
12:14<andythenorth>ships are so slow that it’s only a marginal difference
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>empty ships tend to be less stable, so they get filled with ballast
12:15<andythenorth>yup
12:15<Eddi|zuHause>also, gtg. something about star wars
12:16<lorran78>python is with gimp lol
12:16<lorran78>don't know which python use then
12:16<@Alberth>2, likely
12:17<@Alberth>and newer nmlc's use python 3 :)
12:17<lorran78>n still command not found after gimp installation
12:18<lorran78>i added gimp in path of course
12:18<@Alberth>restarted the shell?
12:18<lorran78>ys
12:18<lorran78>yes
12:18<@Alberth>:(
12:18<lorran78>same bug :(
12:21<lorran78>i still have the year error :(
12:21<lorran78>i changed the path from "mes documents" to F:\OpenTTD to erase the "space" in folder retrying
12:22<lorran78>error : ←[Knmlc ERROR: Path "F:\ogfx-rv-0.4.1-source\src\gfx\flatbed_truck\flatbed_truck _2_farm_supplies.gimp.png" does not exist (even after case conversions) make: *** [ogfx-rv.grf] Error 1
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12:24<lorran78>maybe gimp executable not named correctly?
12:24<@Alberth>"n" doesn't sound like a feasible name for gimp
12:25<@Alberth>likely the makefile tries to be more clever than it should be
12:25<lorran78>okay what can i do the? :)
12:25<lorran78>N=" " works?
12:26<lorran78>like CC=gcc
12:27<andythenorth>wow ships
12:27<andythenorth>much speed
12:27<andythenorth>such adjustments
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12:28<@Alberth>Makefile line 203 tries to guess gimp path (GIMP = ....), what happens if you set the real path there? (use / instead of \ just in case of backslashes problems)
12:28<lorran78>okay
12:28<@Alberth>Makefile.def also seems to have such a line, not sure why, but better replace that too
12:30<andythenorth>steam ship speed of 25mph
12:30<andythenorth>too much?
12:30<@Alberth>oh, it's a ?= assignment, so you can override
12:30<lorran78>o don't have makefile.def??
12:30<lorran78>i*
12:30<@Alberth>GIMP="/path/to/gimp" make
12:30<@Alberth>scripts/Makefile.def
12:32<lorran78>like that ok? "C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe" make
12:33<@Alberth>GIMP="..." make
12:33<@Alberth>and a C: ?
12:33<lorran78>juste the exe maybe (i have gimp in path)
12:34<@Alberth>what does which gimp say?
12:35<@Alberth>it should print its path if it can be found
12:35<lorran78>gimp not found wait
12:36<@Alberth>ok, let's see what happens if I install gimp too
12:37<lorran78>try :)
12:37<lorran78>"C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe" make did not work
12:38<@Alberth>it needs GIMP="C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe" make
12:38<@Alberth>otherwise it doesn't know which variable to replace :)
12:39<lorran78>"GIMP=", "GIMP =" is it same?
12:40<@Alberth>not sure, the shell may break it into pieces and fail to see GIMP=... as environment setting
12:41<@Alberth>maybe you can also added after make not sure how make finds ?= assigned variables
12:42<lorran78>try and tell me how lol i am a little lost
12:42<lorran78>same bug thought [GIMP] src/gfx/bulk_truck/bulk_truck_1_coal.gimp.png /bin/bash: C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe: No such file or directory make: *** [src/gfx/bulk_truck/bulk_truck_1_coal.gimp.png] Error 127
12:43<@Alberth>well, at least it picks up the path
12:43<lorran78>yes lol
12:43<lorran78>and i always have it : Traceback (most recent call last): File "<string>", line 1, in <module> TypeError: Required argument 'year' (pos 1) not found
12:43<@Alberth>what happens if you run it from the shell directly?
12:43<lorran78>11 times
12:43<lorran78>same
12:43<lorran78>wait i retest
12:44<@Alberth>I mean start gimp from the shell
12:44<@Alberth>that should work
12:44<@Alberth>ie "C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe"
12:44<lorran78>all same
12:44<lorran78>and 9 times the year error
12:45<@Alberth>if you run gimp?
12:45<lorran78>it run gimp program
12:45<@Alberth>ie no make, just the gimp
12:45<lorran78>hum how?
12:45<@Alberth>"C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe"
12:45<@Alberth>instead of "make" :)
12:45<lorran78>no such directory :/
12:46<lorran78>from bash?
12:46<@Alberth>ie see if gimp run at all from the shell
12:46<lorran78>gimp runs
12:46<@Alberth>yes, make uses bash
12:46<@Alberth>ok, so that works
12:46<lorran78>so if i type "C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe" from bash
12:46<lorran78>bash: C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe: No such file or directory
12:46<lorran78>you tried?
12:47<@Alberth>I have a Unix system :)
12:47<lorran78>oh :(
12:47<@Alberth>opengfx-rv seems to be building now
12:47<@Alberth>so likely getting gimp running is the key
12:48<@Alberth>and the shell must be able to do that
12:48<@Alberth>as make uses the shell to do its work, eventually
12:48<lorran78>oh it's okay for u :/
12:48<lorran78>yes sure but how lol
12:49<@Alberth>let's try a link
12:49<lorran78>same error if i put "C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe" whitout make
12:49<@Alberth>ln -s "C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe" gimp
12:49<lorran78>F:\ogfx-rv-0.4.1-source>ln -s "C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe" gimp ln: creating symbolic link `gimp' to `C/Program Files/GIMP 2/bin/gimp-2.8.exe': No such file or directory
12:50<Wolf01>I bet it is "/C/Program..."
12:50<lorran78>from shell
12:50<lorran78>oh
12:50<@Alberth>Wolf01: that looks better at least
12:50<lorran78>yes it works now!
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12:50<@Alberth>\o/
12:50<lorran78>i test to modify
12:50<@Alberth>Thanks W :)
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12:52<lorran78>it seems to work lol
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12:52<lorran78>gimp windows is here
12:52<lorran78>but
12:52<lorran78>my year bug? :-
12:52<lorran78>:(
12:52<lorran78>i hope that won't make bug after
12:52<Wolf01>lorran78, are you on win10?
12:52<lorran78>nope
12:52<lorran78>WXP
12:53<lorran78>normal it's so long for one file?
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12:54<lorran78>[GIMP] src/gfx/bulk_truck/bulk_truck_1_coal.gimp.png still processing
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12:56<lorran78>i see that program created one file gimp.png
12:56<lorran78>but it seems to be stucked
12:57<lorran78>hum i must use keyboard to continue??
13:05<@Alberth>I don't
13:05<@Alberth>but who knows what gimp does at windows
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13:08<__ln__>Carrie Fisher 1956-2016
13:08<peter1139>yup
13:08<Wolf01>Just read about it
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13:11<lorran78>sorry internet problem
13:12<lorran78>must i wait and push a key to continue converting with gimp???
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13:18<lorran78>another internet bug :(
13:18<lorran78>how can i do to make gimp automatic and not resuming with a key? lol
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13:22<andythenorth>keypress robot? o_O
13:27<Wolf01>Depression robot?
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13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27716 trunk/src/lang/catalan.txt (2016-12-27 19:45:39 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>catalan: 1 change by juanjo
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14:03<lorran78>lol
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14:33<V453000>how do I generate a map with a seed?
14:58<strei>hmm
14:59<strei>openttd.cfg | [game_creation]>generation_seed =
14:59<strei>try setting it there, dunno
15:32<lorran78>is there an autokey press in it ? GIMP ?= $(shell [ `which gimp 2>/dev/null` ] && echo "gimp" || echo "")
15:43<lorran78>Alberth or someone why have i that error when compiling opengfx+rv 0.4.1 : Traceback (most recent call last): File "<string>", line 1, in <module> TypeError: Required argument 'year' (pos 1) not found
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16:04<@Alberth>lorran78: probably some python code in the makefile trying to decide some date or so
16:05<lorran78>oh ok
16:05<lorran78>so it should not be a problem for the grf?
16:05<lorran78>it's processing the png lol
16:05<lorran78>seems it's stucked (but notices successful...)
16:06<@Alberth>release date text may be broken, which may or may not get copied into the grf text somewhere
16:06<lorran78>batch command executed successfully
16:06<lorran78>it's the first part of converting :/
16:06<lorran78>i hope i can close it (it's really stucked because it's noticed it's processing the next file
16:07<andythenorth>probably the python error is the date parser for revisions
16:07<andythenorth>I haven’t got the code to hand
16:07<@Alberth>$(shell [ `which gimp 2>/dev/null` ] && echo "gimp" || echo "") <-- tries to find gimp with "which gimp", and if found results in "gimp" as GIMP variable value, else ""
16:08<lorran78>okay then it's normal to press key lol
16:08<@Alberth>not really, at least in Unix
16:08<lorran78>nooo!
16:08<lorran78>i've closed and error:///
16:08<@Alberth>maybe gimp has some commandline flag for disabling key-press?
16:08<lorran78>[GIMP] src/gfx/flatbed_truck/flatbed_truck_1_goods.gimp.png make: *** [src/gfx/flatbed_truck/flatbed_truck_1_goods.gimp.png] Error 58
16:08<lorran78>maybe :(
16:09<lorran78>i run it again maybe if file are here it will go ahead
16:10<lorran78>yes it works :p
16:10<@Alberth>make src/gfx/flatbed_truck/flatbed_truck_1_goods.gimp.png may try that one command directly
16:10<lorran78>good idea i'll see if it's not ok (39 files to go and then i hope no more error)
16:11<@Alberth>oh, yes, indeed, make checks for time stamps of files, and skips anything that looks newer than its sources
16:12<lorran78>at last i have last requests
16:12<lorran78>if this works lol
16:12<lorran78>it is not possible to find somewhere original src for original planes and ships?
16:13<lorran78>opengfx+ planes and ships are empty :(
16:13<@Alberth>baseset?
16:13<lorran78>hum but it's gfx not source?
16:14<@Alberth>source?
16:14<@Alberth>oh, the statistics perhaps
16:14<@Alberth>no, they are hardcoded in the program
16:16<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: i already told you that original vehicles means an empty grf, you just need to add the stuff you want to change
16:17<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: like it shows you in the tutorial
16:20<Eddi|zuHause>holy force... 2016 still not over...
16:20<lorran78>lol
16:21<andythenorth>“# normalise default loading time for this set to 240 ticks, regardless of capacity”
16:21<Eddi|zuHause>not "lol"...
16:21<andythenorth>in traditional ottd, ships load every 10 ticks
16:21<lorran78>eddi yes i remember but where find empty grf?
16:21<lorran78>i mean source for making empty grf
16:21<lorran78>(i searched)
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: i already told you that.
16:22<lorran78>oh maybe sorry i am daddy and my baby make me tired lol
16:22<andythenorth>also andythenorth can’t do basic arithmetic
16:22<andythenorth>lorran78 I couldn’t brain when I had babies
16:22<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: i said like 5 lines... can't be that hard to review them
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16:23<lorran78>today you mean lol?
16:23<andythenorth>https://webster.openttdcoop.org/?channel=openttd < always helpful
16:24<lorran78>this line: [22:25] <Eddi|zuHause> lorran78: like it shows you in the tutorial ?
16:24<andythenorth>Eddi|zuHause so if my trains load 6t of cargo every 40 ticks, and my road vehicles load 12t every 20 ticks
16:24<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: looks about right
16:24<lorran78>lol
16:24<andythenorth>how bad is my maths, if they are supposed to be normalised? :P
16:24<lorran78>url for the tutorial?
16:25<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: 12t every 20 ticks is 4 times faster than 6t every 40 ticks
16:25<andythenorth>isn’t it
16:25<andythenorth>hmm, maybe I wasn’t so stupid, the formula in the compile might handle it correctly
16:26<Eddi|zuHause>lorran78: https://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NMLTutorial
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16:26<lorran78>oh i see
16:27<lorran78>if i just want to change the introduction_date of all planes and ships the only thing i must add is the introduction_date with the correct code for planes and ships
16:27<lorran78>and i can find all that codes somewhere?
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16:28<Eddi|zuHause>yes, all the default values are in the wiki
16:28<lorran78>cool then i think i can do it :p
16:28<lorran78>i hope !
16:30<andythenorth>anyway, should ships load to full capacity in 240 ticks?
16:31<andythenorth>I’m not sure how loading of a 300t ship compares with loading 10 train wagons at 30t ea.
16:31<andythenorth>in-game, not IRL
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16:36<andythenorth>Wolf01: was it 16 roadtypes and 16 tramtypes in final result?
16:36<andythenorth>or did we cut them down?
16:36<Wolf01>No, 15 and 15
16:37<andythenorth>I’ll correct my error :)
16:45<SpComb>http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/401181547213210538/484B4759B3178C13AEC7CA6657C9A09D163984BF/ not quite as good as OpenTTD yet
16:55<peter1139>what's that?
16:55<Eddi|zuHause>looks like cities:skylines
16:56<peter1139>is it worth it? £5.74 :S
16:57<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't got far into it, but i think so, yes.
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17:39<lorran78>:(((
17:39<lorran78>another error
17:41<lorran78>"/bin/bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `('"
17:41<lorran78>gimp done and ok
17:49<debdog>nice. what's gimp?
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17:59<FLHerne_>debdog: Image editor
18:00<debdog>;)
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18:54<Wolf01>'night
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20:39<lorran78>strange
20:39<lorran78>now it works no error
20:39<lorran78>i just run the make command from shell again
20:40<lorran78>just these info while compiling
20:40<lorran78>←[K nmlc info: Concurrent Action10 labels: 1/240 ("src/header.pnml", line 116) ←[K nmlc info: Concurrent spritesets: 4/255 ("src/truck_bulk.pnml", line 18) ←[K nmlc info: Concurrent spritegroups: 27/256 ("src/truck_flatbed.pnml", line 7 8) ←[K nmlc info: Concurrent ActionD registers: 17/64 ("src/truck_flatbed.pnml", li ne 78)
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20:51<lorran78>all my introduction date works yes!!!!!! :p
21:32<Eddi|zuHause>well, the info is just for info...
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---Logclosed Wed Dec 28 00:00:36 2016