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#openttd IRC Logs for 2016-12-30

---Logopened Fri Dec 30 00:00:39 2016
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05:47<Wolf01> heh
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05:58<andythenorth>would need a hack of trams/RVs
05:58<andythenorth>specify which level they’re on, for pathfinding
05:59<andythenorth>just an integer, if the integers don’t match they’re blind to each other
05:59<andythenorth>but there are 50 problems with ‘above ground’ vehicles
05:59<andythenorth>tunnels, catenary, bridges...
05:59<Wolf01>Also an offset for graphics
05:59<Wolf01>Must be drawn over overlay
05:59<andythenorth>you’ve seen elevated monorail?
05:59<andythenorth>it’s a grf
05:59<Wolf01>It's a hugly hack
06:06<@Alberth>needs newmap, imho
06:06<andythenorth>we would need more active developers if that was ever to happen :)
06:07<@Alberth>ie a map with several levels above each other
06:08<@Alberth>so far, I am stuck in how to store the tile data at all
06:10*andythenorth would have no idea :)
06:10<andythenorth>but presumably this just eats a lot more RAM?
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06:11<@Alberth>not necessarily
06:11<andythenorth>how many levels are really needed?
06:11<andythenorth>it can’t be arbitrarily extensible
06:11<@Alberth>if you split tracks from the ground, it would save memory
06:12<@Alberth>there are many ground tiles, but they don't all need all the bits of train tracks
06:12<andythenorth>strikes me that only 3 levels are needed
06:12<andythenorth>sub-surface, surface, above-surface
06:12<@Alberth>in fact, most of them re just empty, or have a few trees
06:12<peter1139>but sub-surface tunnels
06:12<andythenorth>I don’t actually like the idea, it would need a rework of transparency / gui tools to hide/show layers
06:13<peter1139>it would need more than a rework of the game
06:13<andythenorth>but eh, it’s a fun game to try and figure it out
06:13<andythenorth>lomo solved it?
06:13*andythenorth never played lomo, it’s not pretty
06:13<peter1139>i had a... special version once.
06:14<peter1139>building was annoying
06:14<peter1139>a bit like stock ttd i suppose.
06:14<@Alberth>yeah :)
06:14<@Alberth>or rather, like building a rollercoaster
06:15<peter1139>that was annoying too
06:18<@Alberth>andy: yes, it was solved in RCT
06:23<andythenorth>presumably RCT allowed multiple coaster track heights on same tile?
06:23<andythenorth>otherwise loops etc wouldn’t work?
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06:24<peter1139>i guess. maybe not different types though.
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06:29<andythenorth>is multiple map levels actually more fun? o_O
06:32<@Alberth>yes, you can have the same coaster passing the same tile several times. Other coasters work too
06:33<@Alberth>more fun depends on having loopings in our tracks, wouldn't it :D
06:33<@Alberth>NRT is spreading to patchpacks :p
06:34<@Alberth>basically you can build layers of transport then
06:35<@Alberth>a local train layer, a passing through layer, and a bus layer all on top of each other
06:35<@Alberth>useful in crowded cities, as we found out in RL :)
06:36<@Alberth>bridges and tunnels is our current limited form of layers
06:37<@Alberth>but you can't have a junction on a bridge
06:39<+michi_cc>Alberth: You want to complete for me? :P
06:40<+michi_cc>Splitting tracks from ground is already done (except making the tile struct smaller afterwards).
06:40<Eddi|zuHause><andythenorth> tunnels, catenary, bridges... <-- the current "solution" to catenaries is to suppress drawing them when a bridge above is too low
06:41<Eddi|zuHause>and obviously, elevated tracks won't be able to have tunnels, they have to transition to ground first
06:42<andythenorth>how does FIRS cause an infinite loop in ottd?
06:42<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: make a backtrace?
06:42<andythenorth>there are no loops in nfo
06:42<andythenorth>not possible
06:44<Eddi|zuHause>andythenorth: infinite loops are definitely an openttd bug, not a firs bug
06:44<andythenorth>I haven’t tried a repro
06:44<andythenorth>no idea which FIRS
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07:01<@Alberth>michi_cc: how do you store map tiles?
07:02<@Alberth>but to answer your question: it's not impossible, but not high on my list
07:03<peter1139>2011 :(
07:03<andythenorth>a classic year
07:05<+michi_cc>It's basically the RCT way (there's a web page somewhere). Instead of a 2D array like now it is an array containing an array for each map Y line. Each line has one or more Tile structs per TileIndex.
07:05<+michi_cc>A cache maps TileIndex -> Tile* for speed.
07:06*andythenorth wonders if there’s a way to have multiple routes from one pickup station with cdist
07:07<andythenorth>is it true that industries only distribute cargo to 2 stations with highest ratings
07:08<andythenorth>those are two different questions :P Two different solutions to same problem
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07:10<Eddi|zuHause>1) yes, but gets tricky with more than, say, 4 destinations, 2) yes
07:10<@Alberth>latter seems true-ish, I remember rewriting such code once
07:11<Eddi|zuHause>try having distribution hubs, so each station has fewer next hops
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07:13<andythenorth>I never understood the cdist pickup behaviour, I’ve talked to fonso about it a few times
07:14<Eddi|zuHause>say you have one source A and 9 destinations {1..9}, then try making 3 hubs {X,Y,Z} so you have 3 routes: A->X->{1,2,3}, A->Y->{4,5,6} and A->Z->{7,8,9}
07:14<andythenorth>if I add a route to an existing pickup station, cdist (1) seems to take a very long time to recognise the new links and allocate cargo (2) always appears to distribute more cargo to the first established route, even though AIUI it should be a 50:50 split (distance effect is 0)
07:15<Eddi|zuHause>if distribution takes long, you might have too many disconnected networks
07:15<andythenorth>whereas, I have routes where cargo arriving at a a station is split between accepting industry and another route (transfer)
07:15<andythenorth>which works perfectly, and near-instantly after building the route
07:16<@Alberth>(1) is a startup effect. Existing cargo at a station is never rerouted unless you remove the route, and a new distribution is computed only once every soo many days
07:16<Eddi|zuHause>also, if using full load, it helps sending one train empty on a roundtrip at the start
07:16<andythenorth>is that true, or is it superstition and voodoo?
07:17<Eddi|zuHause>something inbetween. theoretically cargodist should figure it out based on orders, but i've seen that fail occasionally
07:18<Eddi|zuHause>also, cargodist might fail on autorefit
07:19<andythenorth>I use station refit to explicit cargo
07:19<andythenorth>which does very occasionally fail to perform the refit
07:19<andythenorth>but they’re not connect I think
07:19<andythenorth>connected *
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>well, cargodist's order-prediction can only work on the vehicle's current refit, not on the future potential refits
07:20<Eddi|zuHause>so it might fail to detect valid routes if no vehicle ever goes there
07:21*andythenorth continues to build single-route pickup stations
07:21<andythenorth>the limitation of 2 is just another gameplay feature eh?
07:21<Eddi|zuHause>i suppose it was meant for competitors
07:22<andythenorth>it’s fine, it’s just another constraint
07:22<andythenorth>more what bothers me is that I should probably try and prove if/why cdist isn’t working right
07:22<andythenorth>otherwise it can’t be fixed :P
07:46<andythenorth>are vehicle rosters a BAD FEATURE?
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08:17<@Alberth>creating the possibility to make distinct experiences in picking vehicles? not necessarily, imho
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09:51<Arkhip>hi, who can tell me pass for nice_server (ver. 1.5.3)?
09:57<Arkhip>Anyone is here?
10:09<@Alberth>did you check the server page?
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11:56<Wolf01> could be a nice ottd grf set
11:57<Wolf01>Maybe too green
11:59<__ln__>what are the WW2-era japanese fighters doing in the same village with modern-day trucks?
12:00<Wolf01>I think the author started by doing one thing and then end up doing a mashup of different green things
12:00<__ln__>how unrealistic
12:01<__ln__>(although yeah, i like the pic)
12:02<Wolf01>Long time ago I started doing a similar work (futuristic factory) but I abandoned it because I don't know how to do details
12:02<@Alberth>looks a bit very green indeed (or rather, dark), but nice otherwise
12:04<Wolf01>I would do brown/dark red roofs to catch the eye and break the green tint
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12:22<Wolf01>Uhm, I really think that tomorrow evening I'll be here
12:26<Wolf01>Nice... train
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13:27<peter1139>nice gif
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13:29<V453000>nice indeed
13:30<Wolf01>I hope to not have given some weird idea to V :P
13:30<V453000>i only draw animls
13:33<Lejving>dickbutt is an animal
13:33<Wolf01>Totally in V's style also
13:34<Wolf01>I'm bored again :|
13:37<Arkhip>Alberth, all servers 1.5.3 with pass
13:37<Arkhip>there are only three
13:45<@DorpsGek>Commit by translators :: r27718 trunk/src/lang/spanish_MX.txt (2016-12-30 19:45:38 +0100 )
13:45<@DorpsGek>-Update from Eints:
13:45<@DorpsGek>spanish (mexican): 25 changes by Absay
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15:16<lorran78>is this normal that fist with opengfx+industries make bank industries which create and accept nothing.
15:19<lorran78>it seems it depends which one if first but if fist if first then another industries create and accept nothing :(
15:32<+michi_cc>lorran78: In general combining multiple industry NewGRFs will not work, unless there where explicitly designed to do so.
15:39<andythenorth>lorran78: is it the only grf in your test game?
15:40<andythenorth>there might be some town sets that add banks
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---Logclosed Sat Dec 31 00:00:41 2016