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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-01-06

---Logopened Fri Jan 06 00:00:49 2017
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04:23<Wolf01>o/
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06:20<Wolf01>Quak
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06:22<frosch123>hoi
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09:26<supermop>snow today
09:26<Wolf01>Sunny here, really clear sky
09:27<Wolf01>Snow maybe tomorrow, or sunday
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09:31<supermop>time for snowy tram sprites
09:47<Wolf01>I think I healed myself enough to try to do something
09:48<Wolf01>I have been able to play for a massive 1:45 hours today before fainting
09:58<supermop>???
09:58<Wolf01>Flu
10:00<supermop>ouch
10:11<Wolf01>frosch123, are you working on something?
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10:13<frosch123>no, i am waiting on people to use the shit :)
10:14<Wolf01>:)
10:14<Wolf01>o/ Alberth
10:15<@Alberth>o/
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10:30<supermop>so many good sheds in firs
10:32<Wolf01>Meh, they dropped minecraft for windows phones... no more updates
10:33-!-Rubidium_ is now known as Rubidium
10:33<Rubidium>Windows phone? Is that still a thing?
10:34<Wolf01>Some people still use it
10:34<Wolf01>For example I won't switch to android or iphone for any reason
10:35<@Alberth>not for minecraft updates? :p
10:35<Wolf01>Nah, I play on pc
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10:36<Wolf01>But since I purchased it again on the phone to play when far from home I would have liked some more support
10:36<Wolf01>I still could play on tablet
10:37<Wolf01>Maybe not the same performance, but biggest screen
10:37<@Alberth>that counts too :)
10:37<V453000>SIZE MATTERS
10:39<Wolf01>ANUS
10:40<Wolf01>Is FFF?
10:40<Wolf01>Not yet
10:40<Wolf01>Write it, quick!
10:45<Wolf01>frosch123, should I publish the "no houses" branch? I'm syncing my local copy with master
10:47<frosch123>sure, i guess there is nothing controversial about that one :)
10:48<frosch123>but for all the other suggestions i would like to see people using stuff first
10:48<frosch123>it's rather moody to talk about towns building different road types, when there are none for players to build :p
10:49<Wolf01>:D
10:54<Wolf01>Playing a quick game just to be sure it doesn't assert at the firts house construction :P
10:57<frosch123>build 5 bus stops, send 3 bus in a circle and fast forward :)
10:57<Wolf01>Yup
11:02<@Alberth>press "fund new buildings" :)
11:03<@Alberth>hmm, have a town road type that doesn't like houses? :o
11:04<Wolf01>Lol, self killing city
11:05<Wolf01>Btw, the flag will be enabled only for tramways by default, grfs may change it as they want
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11:48<Wolf01>I noticed there's only one problem with that patch, the flag is only useful for ROAD
11:48<Wolf01>Tramways are already ignored by the game as houses won't be built along them
11:58<frosch123>same applies to drive-in stops :)
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12:01<Wolf01>Having a feature working on only half of the spec is a bad feature imho :/
12:02<Wolf01>Also I noticed a nice thing, when loading a game all vehicles lose power :P
12:02<frosch123>i am more worried about electrified road + non-electrified tram
12:02<supermop>is there an example nml code for writing a road newgrf?
12:02<frosch123>because you cannot see that the tram is not-electrified
12:02<frosch123>but then, the same applies to train depots
12:02<Wolf01>Yeah, that's weird
12:03<frosch123>supermop: https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/tree/NotRoadTypes/examples/roadtype_and_tramtype
12:03<frosch123>it's in the nrt nml
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12:16<Wolf01>Could I hide "convert-road" from repo?
12:19<frosch123>it's merged
12:19<Wolf01>Ok, removed
12:23<Wolf01>http://xkcd.com/1782/ Ha! :D
12:25<frosch123>he, is the author in our channel?
12:26<frosch123>wasn't there recently that management gui here?
12:26<Wolf01>Yeah, it made me think that too
12:27<Wolf01>I think the "problem" is more common than it seem
12:27<frosch123>"management" is always the problem :p
12:28<LordAro>Wolf01: :D
12:32<frosch123>yay, i found a 62 in the code
12:32<frosch123>sometimes ottd is just crap :p
12:32<Wolf01>A what?
12:33<frosch123>a random number that is either wrong, or does not matter
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13:16<supermop>if i have 4 types of chips/isr pavement, that is easily 8 road types and 8 tram types before even adding exotic stuff like HAUL
13:17<Wolf01>Do they have different features or just eyecandy?
13:17<supermop>so i guess will need a param for like, do you want isr or chips style ground
13:17<supermop>Wolf01: just to match station gound tiles
13:18<supermop>chips mud, chips cobble, chips asphalt, and ISR
13:19<supermop>wanted to add the slag-y looking ground tile from new FIRS steelmill too
13:19<Wolf01>Not even max speed?
13:20<supermop>realistically they would all be slower than road, as it is meant to be part of a freight yard or industrial area
13:21<supermop>but maybe players want their molten metal driving at 100kmh from the blast furnace to foundry
13:21<Wolf01>Make a prop to disable speed limits
13:21<Wolf01>Or set speed limits like on rail sets
13:22<supermop>for gameplay, or some other reason?
13:22<Wolf01>Why do we have speed limits for rails?
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13:24<supermop>not all rail sets have speed limits
13:24<Wolf01>All the ones I tried
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13:27<Wolf01>Cat
13:27<@Alberth>try default set :)
13:27<@Alberth>yo andy
13:28<andythenorth>lo
13:29<supermop>Wolf01: use case is for this: http://imgur.com/a/D69Xa
13:29<supermop>road or tram type to match those tiles
13:29<Wolf01>+1
13:29<supermop>so whole harbor looks consistent
13:29<@Alberth>as soon as we have more than 1 tile to stop, it becomes useful to consider speed limits
13:30<supermop>Alberth: sure, but i wonder if asphalt>cobble is actually meaningfully fun
13:32<supermop>FIRS metal workshop has cobble base, but if cobble is super slow, then player is penalized to choose the 'right looking' road
13:32<supermop>and then why even bother using the road set at all
13:33<Wolf01>I would use the best looking road even if vehicles will go backwards
13:34<supermop>Wolf01: should mud/gravel/cobble/asphalt have different costs too?
13:34<Wolf01>I think yes
13:34<+glx>mud should cost nothing :)
13:34<supermop>currently, station tiles are generally all trivially cheap across newgrfs
13:35<Wolf01>And should not have maintainance cost
13:35<andythenorth>Wolf01: speed limits are, imho, daft
13:35<supermop>so there is no huge cost to build a big eyecandy station of any type you wish
13:35<andythenorth>I already have speed limits for the trains
13:35<andythenorth>termite has no speed limits
13:35*andythenorth back from logs :P
13:35<Wolf01>I use NuTracks :P
13:36<supermop>i would be fine saying, all of these 'yard roads' are 50 or 80 kmh or something, with param to disable speed limit
13:36<andythenorth>I am going to fold Termite into Iron Horse
13:36<andythenorth>and be damned
13:36<supermop>haha
13:36<supermop>andytheworstpractices
13:36<andythenorth>[shrug]
13:37<andythenorth>too many times I’ve followed best practice
13:37<supermop>we need a station feature to alter load speed, etc based on platform type
13:38<andythenorth>‘OpenTTD cannot have port industries, it breaks the in-world cargo model'
13:38<supermop>people have a hard time climbing up into the train from the mud
13:38<andythenorth>‘all fieldsets should have legends, and legends should be nested'
13:38<supermop>nor to passengers enjoy being poured into the train from a tipple
13:38<andythenorth>‘use CPP, not an arcane templating language nobody else understands'
13:39*andythenorth cherry-picking examples
13:39<andythenorth>:P
13:41<supermop>a weir object would be nice
13:41<supermop>freely overbuildable by locks
13:41<andythenorth>o_O
13:42<andythenorth>what would be nicer is…ships going up slopes
13:42<andythenorth>the rapids thing is daft
13:42<supermop>those river rapids flowing into side of that port look silly
13:42*andythenorth might try hacking rivers in 2017 :P
13:42<andythenorth>although, if I buy a new laptop
13:42<andythenorth>I won’t be hacking any more ottd at all :P
13:43<supermop>andy just add 10 variants of slihtly less steep slope
13:43<supermop>was playing on a PL server last night
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13:44<supermop>building a lock was like half a million quid
13:44<supermop>all these big wide long rivers and couldn't get my boats into them
13:45<andythenorth>eh, let’s make some roads first :)
13:45<supermop>also need flat docks - the terraforming cost was set so high i couldn't build any docks up on the river either
13:45<andythenorth>one feature per year :)
13:46<supermop>chips tile roads quickly runs out of 15 road types
13:46<supermop>unless i am not thinking of something correctly
13:46<supermop>4 for road, 4 for haul, 4 for electric road?
13:47<supermop>then 4 for tram and 4 for electric tram
13:47<supermop>soo 12/15 and 8/15 used
13:48<andythenorth>yup, you broke it :)
13:48<supermop>leaves only 3 regular roads - road, E Road, and Haul
13:48<andythenorth>someone had to
13:48<supermop>more pls
13:50<supermop>i want 600mm, 1M, standard and broad gauge tramways, plus all combinations thereof
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13:52<frosch123>hmm, i think the pattern is: if there are two simliar functions, and the older one does not work, the newer one was likely added just because of that
13:53<andythenorth>I have owned code like that :)
13:53<supermop>chips asphalt and ISR pavement are probably the two that would be most useful to the typical player who wants to make nice stations
13:53<andythenorth>it’s extra fun in monkey patches I would think http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5626193/what-is-a-monkey-patch
13:54<supermop>but they are visually almost the same
13:54<supermop>turn each type on or off by parameter?
13:54<andythenorth>https://web.archive.org/web/20120730014107/http://wiki.zope.org/zope2/MonkeyPatch
13:54<andythenorth>supermop: two grfs :D
13:54<supermop>T_T
13:55<supermop>fork firs to use ISR groundtiles throughout
13:55<andythenorth>ugh
13:56<supermop>isr has a separate ore station grf with dark brown ground
13:56<supermop>also - steelmill slag ground tiles?
13:57<supermop>brb lunch
13:59<andythenorth>one grf per type :P
13:59<andythenorth>frosch123: any inclination to patch hidden types?
13:59<andythenorth>I would update RH for it
14:00<frosch123>i am unsure how to implement them
14:00<frosch123>if one grf defines a label as hidden type, and another one as real type, the real type has to win
14:01<andythenorth>yes
14:02<frosch123>i think it cannot be just a flag in that case, i guess it needs some different "label" property to perform a different reservation procedure
14:03<andythenorth>I wonder if it has unexpected / unwanted side effects
14:03<andythenorth>the mapping of vehicles to types is already confusing enough, as an author
14:03<andythenorth>does this just make it worse?
14:03<frosch123>it certainly affects tracktype introduction
14:04<frosch123>currently a vehicle introduces its tracktype, if not available yet
14:04<frosch123>which types does the virtual one introduce?
14:04<frosch123>those from the "introduces" property?
14:04<frosch123>and the vehicle is disabled if none of them exists?
14:05<frosch123>anyway, why do you not add trails as off-road track :p
14:06<frosch123>you need something to connect road and haul, don't you?
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14:06<andythenorth>I might just treat the non-compatibility as a constraint
14:06<andythenorth>not all things need to be solved
14:06<andythenorth>constraints are useful, total freedom is boring
14:07<andythenorth>maybe HAUL should be trams? o_O
14:08<frosch123>HAUL souinds like mostly underlay
14:08<frosch123>and road underlay wins over tram underlay
14:08<andythenorth>well yes
14:08<andythenorth>but RAIL -> HAUL could be done with the convert tool
14:08<frosch123>i think you rather want some mining train
14:08<andythenorth>round about 1960, when my trams run out :)
14:09<frosch123>600mm gauge for mining
14:09<frosch123>andythenorth: that sounds like the stupid rail -> mono -> maglev conversion
14:10<frosch123>sell all, remove all, restart from scratch
14:10<frosch123>i always prefered adding stuff
14:10<frosch123>than replacing stuff
14:10<frosch123>so something that allows both the old tram and new haul sounds better to me
14:11<andythenorth>fair
14:11<frosch123>esp. with your one-to-one compatibility
14:11<andythenorth>also they’re road vehicles, it’s bad hax to build them as light rail :P
14:11<frosch123>otherwise you need bridges :p
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14:36<andythenorth>maybe I should add a universal road
14:36<andythenorth>but crippled by speed limits
14:39<Wolf01>Change speed limit in different town zones, to confuse the player
14:47<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aLM5PeP_460s.jpg V would approve
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15:01<supermop>andythenorth: thats called mud
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15:02<supermop>whats a hidden type
15:04<andythenorth>not a thing :)
15:04<frosch123>something that would allow andy to skip drawing trail road :)
15:06*andythenorth could cut power to most ROAD vehicles on HAUL
15:06<andythenorth>so they go incredibly slowly
15:06<andythenorth>user hostile? o_O
15:06<frosch123>speed limit is a static thing from the roadtype pov
15:06<andythenorth>cb to current roadtype? o_O
15:06<frosch123>no thanks :)
15:06<andythenorth>ach
15:07<andythenorth>where’s the fun :P
15:07<andythenorth>how will I animate dust effects on trail only?
15:07<frosch123>someone did the work to cache stuff as long as the roadtype does not change under the vehicle
15:07<andythenorth>And Other Important Features
15:07<frosch123>if roadtypes get callbacks, we would have to invalidate on every tile
15:08<andythenorth>I was thinking a var on cb36 (or so)
15:08<andythenorth>current type
15:08<andythenorth>it’s evil
15:08<andythenorth>but trains have it
15:08<frosch123>road vehicles have that too
15:08<andythenorth>problem solved
15:09<andythenorth>can I nerf the relibability to 0 O_O
15:09<frosch123>so, hog can draw effects on specific roads
15:14<supermop>andythenorth: why exactly can a bus not drive on haul?
15:15<andythenorth>because it drives on ROAD? o_O
15:16<supermop>is the haul road too bumpy or something?
15:17<supermop>or just because there is a sign saying private road, do not enter?
15:18<andythenorth>dunno
15:18<andythenorth>I didn’t rationalise it
15:18<andythenorth>it’s just a different route type
15:19<supermop>fair enough
15:19<andythenorth>for me, game is about building routes
15:19<andythenorth>and fitting them into tiles
15:19<supermop>then why bother cutting bus power? just disallow
15:19<andythenorth>yeah, that’s the current solution
15:19<andythenorth>everything else is basically trolling :P
15:20<andythenorth>I wondered if the railtypes spec design went like this:
15:21<andythenorth>- putting the compatibility property on the vehicle is really a lot of repetitive work when coding a set
15:21<andythenorth>- so put it on the railtype instead
15:21<andythenorth>or whether there was some other rationale
15:22<frosch123>the rationale is that track types are not supplied by vehicle grfs :)
15:23<andythenorth>but vehicles are not supplied by track type grfs
15:23<andythenorth>:P
15:23*andythenorth is not grumbling
15:23<andythenorth>just curious
15:23<andythenorth>anyway, here’s factorio https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=209052#p209052
15:23<supermop>next andy will add code to disable all andy grfs if a non-andy road or track grf is loaded
15:24<andythenorth>I think that’s probably wise
15:24<andythenorth>hey look, trolleybuses exist
15:24<andythenorth>and DaleStan coded them https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=217676#p217676
15:25<andythenorth>can we crowdfund ‘return of DaleStan’ o_O
15:33<andythenorth>old forums
15:34<andythenorth>sometimes I think things were ‘better’ in the old days
15:34<andythenorth>they weren’t, and I am wrong :)
15:34<andythenorth>same stuff, different user names :)
15:36<andythenorth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=38108&p=720544&hilit=railtypes#p720544
15:36<andythenorth>ha ha https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=42617&hilit=railtypes
15:38<frosch123>that was a follow up post to a post in the locomotion section on the same day
15:38<andythenorth>oh look, we’ve nearly completed my wish list :o https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=828391#p828391
15:40<frosch123>see, it's all in the trails topic
15:42<andythenorth>still no Canadian trainset though :(
15:43<frosch123>does nars not qualify?
15:44<andythenorth>nah
15:44<andythenorth>well maybe
15:45<andythenorth>might be time to dust this off https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=46689&hilit=pony
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15:59<andythenorth>frosch123: o_O http://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/Town_Control
16:00<andythenorth>redundant due to GS? o_O
16:00<frosch123>yes, it's in the abandoned section, if you check the parent page :)
16:01*andythenorth checks the parent page :P
16:01<frosch123>1.5 years ago there was a newgrf/gs interface stuff
16:01<frosch123>it even has a compile farm set up
16:01<frosch123>but then nothing was done :p
16:01<andythenorth>was there a discussion logged somewhere? o_O
16:03<@Alberth>likely
16:04<andythenorth>ho https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/GS_Area_Control
16:04<supermop>hah the someone who picked it up was you andythenorth
16:04<andythenorth>only took 8 years or so
16:05<andythenorth>7 even
16:06<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/GS-NewGRF_Communication_via_JSON <- i wrote that, https://github.com/Leffe108/OpenTTD/tree/gs-newgrf <- zuu wrote that
16:06<@Alberth>There is discussion about "Newgrf/GS" at nov 9, 2014
16:06<frosch123>i think there is also a forum topic
16:06<frosch123>and quite sure a lot in irc
16:07<@Alberth>areas are still in my head :)
16:07<@Alberth>not to mention they seem part of certain wild-west ideas here :)
16:08<frosch123>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=73366 <- that one
16:09<frosch123>looks like that topic was quite popular :p
16:09<andythenorth>ach I owed Zuu some tests on that
16:09*andythenorth had forgotten
16:09<andythenorth>it released the day before I went on holiday or so
16:10<frosch123>area control was not done, because noone had an interesting application :)
16:10*andythenorth is not starting a GS project any time soon
16:10<frosch123>it was written because i browsed simutrans forums
16:10<andythenorth>enough newgrfs unfinished :P
16:11<frosch123>maybe i should do that again :p
16:11<andythenorth>frosch123: well meanwhile this http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8296/ship-refit-capacity.png
16:11<andythenorth>I think I’ll have to replace my ‘x units’ text with ‘underload, [empty], overload’ strings
16:11<frosch123>you already posted that last month?
16:12<andythenorth>I tried making it show the actual cargo
16:12<andythenorth>but eh, the cb doesn’t have support for that
16:12<andythenorth>the cargo presumably isn’t known
16:13<andythenorth>also I realised the vehicle window text would repeat the cargo capacity twice
16:13<frosch123>how about "+25%", "-25%"
16:13<andythenorth>pretty much the best solution I think
16:13<supermop>light ship goes faster?
16:13<andythenorth>I had a horrible idea about ships having holds
16:14<supermop>yes pls
16:14<andythenorth>fixed capacity per hold, all same cargo, store the number of holds; actual capacity is number_holds * fixed_capacity
16:14<andythenorth>probably stupid and pointless
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17:37<LordAro>V453000: dem rails look nice
17:41<Wolf01>'night
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