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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-01-09

---Logopened Mon Jan 09 00:00:53 2017
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07:12<Wolf01>Moin
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10:51<Wolf01>Quak
10:51<Wolf01>Wrong animal
10:51<Wolf01>o/
10:52<Eddi|zuHause>Moo?
10:53<Wolf01>I'm a bit poor on ideas this period... I would like to fix my terraforming tools but I don't have clue on how to do it :(
10:54<Eddi|zuHause>i don't think i can help you there
10:55<@Alberth>o/
10:55<@Alberth>how do they fail?
10:56<Wolf01>The problem is that the brush continuously raises the terrain, and does it really fast
10:56<Wolf01>If I slow it down, it misses spots when dragging
10:57<@Alberth>raise one level each time you visit a tile?
10:57<@Alberth>or once every x seconds
11:03<@Alberth>conceptually, as soon as you cover a new tile with the brush, you raise the tile, and start a counter from x to 0. If it hits 0, raise again, and reset the counter to x. If the tile is no longer covered, remove the counter of it
11:04<Wolf01>I'll end up having counters for 64 tiles at time
11:04<@Alberth>hmm, maybe not remove, but keep it running until timeout
11:05<@Alberth>less messy when you move back and forth
11:05<@Alberth>is 64 counters a problem?
11:06<Wolf01>The problem is how to handle an array of counters which change continuously
11:07<@Alberth>2D round-robin buffer?
11:09<@Alberth>for 64 tiles, a 6x6 area, where you point into it for one of the corners of the tool, which is at a known location in the map
11:10<@Alberth>all other tiles are relative to that position, but wrapping around in positive direction, instead of a negative offset
11:10<@Alberth>need a picture for that?
11:10<Wolf01>I'm reading about it
11:11<@Alberth>:O it exists? :)
11:11<@Alberth>I just made it up :)
11:17<@Alberth>SO discussion looks different from my 2D idea
11:24<Wolf01>Mmmh, an array of tile areas for a paintbrush pass, with the same exact area appearing only once, then when releasing the button it loops throught the array and raises the tiles
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11:39<Wolf01>Bah, I just limited the terraformation on cursor movement, which is better than nothing, but I think is even better if I'll go read a book instead
11:40<@Alberth>if the book is any good, sure :)
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11:41<Lejving>I don't know if anyone here who did it but I just want to say who ever made the mods/load/menu map things for this game you're a god damn hero
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11:41<Lejving>Being able to load like 6 year old maps and just get right version number for a 10 year old mod without problem is a major masterpiece
11:41<@Alberth>oh :)
11:42<@Alberth>md5sum goes a long way :)
11:42<Lejving>was it you who did it Alberth?
11:43<@Alberth>nah, done way before me arrived
11:43<Lejving>ah ok but it's really fucking nice
11:44<Lejving>I've been looking through some old openttdcoop games and it just hit me how amazing it is I can just load any old save and it works every time
11:46<@Alberth>:)
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13:13<moonpunter>Argh can't seem to create an account for the wiki
13:13<moonpunter>Not receiving any e-mails
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13:17<+glx>try to signup at http://account.openttd.org/ directly
13:20<frosch123>hoin
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14:23<andythenorth>o/
14:24<frosch123>mo
14:25<andythenorth>ha ha
14:25<Wolf01>o/
14:25<andythenorth>an entire new class of routes in NotRoadTypes
14:25<andythenorth>but...
14:25<andythenorth>“Transmitters must be removable!!!!!"
14:26<frosch123>well, at least someone might have got to "default objects should be overrideable by newgrf"
14:31<moonpunter>glx: i've tried that numerous times before coming here
14:32<moonpunter>gets to the screen where it says check your e-mail, e-mail never arrives
14:32<andythenorth>“there are at least three groups of interest wrt. game features: 1. micromanagement like conditonal orders, refitting and loading. 2. automated economy like cargodist. 3. model railway sandbox” <- I think there is something else
14:33<frosch123>reading ancient logs :p
14:33<andythenorth>'ancient'
14:33<frosch123>last year
14:33<andythenorth>so last year
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14:39<andythenorth>5. mostly the original game, only more, and with GUI annoyances reduced
14:39<andythenorth>6. a platform for people to make addons
14:39<andythenorth>yeah, as goals, the wording of those is a bit crap
14:40<frosch123>is 6 an interest group, or just the comprimise of the rest?
14:40<andythenorth>I think it’s a specific interest
14:41<andythenorth>there is a meta-game and community enabled by newgrf, AI, GS and scenarios
14:41<andythenorth>it’s a creative platform, not similar, but in same direction as minecraft, etc
14:41<andythenorth>people who are just having fun creating things
14:42<andythenorth>it’s quite valid to give people creative tools imho
14:42<@Alberth>a canvas and some paint
14:43<andythenorth>AI bores me so I don’t know how well that goes
14:43<andythenorth>newgrf is pretty strong
14:44<andythenorth>scenario…seems a bit fragile?
14:44<andythenorth>GS is….not as good as I’d hope, dunno why
14:44<frosch123>i think gs is more interesting when other do it
14:45<andythenorth>maybe it’s a limited audience, or maybe it’s the format, or maybe it’s lack of ideas
14:45<frosch123>playing something you designed yourself is always weird
14:45<andythenorth>I only use 3 GS
14:45<frosch123>problem is that most gs do this weird town growth stuff, which is all equally meh to me
14:46<andythenorth>yup
14:46<andythenorth>I can grow towns way bigger than I want already
14:46<@Alberth>give more control over cargo payment?
14:46<andythenorth>although….my 6 year old is a good barometer
14:46<andythenorth>(1) his main goal is to grow his toyland city as big as possible
14:46<frosch123>i play with industries, not with towns :)
14:46<@Alberth>city GS make grow more difficult
14:47<andythenorth>(2) he is very jealous that I have two 20k cities next to each other
14:47<andythenorth>(3) the other day in the car, I was wondering (in my head) why people want multi-layer bridges, then in same moment, he asked me out loud how multi-level bridges could be coded
14:47<andythenorth>so eh
14:47<andythenorth>6 year olds
14:47<@Alberth>:D
14:48<frosch123>enabling crossing bridges is like 3 lines
14:48<frosch123>stacked bridges in same direction is a lot more work
14:49<andythenorth>I still don’t see the point :P
14:49<andythenorth>although he said it means he can fit more tracks in
14:49<frosch123>maybe it's the hope that 3d construction would make it more interesting
14:49<andythenorth>to me, the core challenge of the game is cramming routes in :P
14:50<andythenorth>I want it harder not easier
14:50<frosch123>while for me that hope got crushed with bridge builder 15 years ago
14:50<andythenorth>bridge builder? o_O
14:51<frosch123>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridge_Builder
14:51<frosch123>was an awesome puzzle game in 2000
14:52<frosch123>then got a 3d version "pontifex", which was exactly what i had hoped for, but was actually completely boring
14:52<andythenorth>oh yeah, 6 year old also wants me to pay for this :P https://bridge-constructor.en.softonic.com/mac
14:52<andythenorth>he’s done the free levels
15:02<andythenorth>so what stops GS providing things like this? http://theterminal.dune2k.com/?p=rrt3-files-maps&id=453
15:02<andythenorth>other than authors :D
15:03<frosch123>isn't that busy bee?
15:03<frosch123>just "replayablity" swapped with "hand crafted single scenario and balancing"
15:04<andythenorth>probably
15:04<andythenorth>each RT3 scenario was quite crafted, and needed a different strategy
15:04<andythenorth>ottd is quite different, I think differences might be:
15:04<andythenorth>- map is different :P
15:05<andythenorth>- newgrf makes it impossible to know which industries and vehicles are present
15:05<@Alberth>this looks like a scenario, where you do know such things
15:06<@Alberth>arguably, you could code the knowledge in the gs, eg from grfid
15:06<@Alberth>although you may not have access to it now
15:06<V453000>andythenorth your research brings me to conclusion my daughter should start playing openttd about now
15:06<andythenorth>arguably, the newgrf author might revamp the grf :P
15:06<andythenorth>V453000: how old? 6-7 months?
15:07<V453000>11
15:07<@Alberth>andy: well, ok, +md5sum :p
15:07<V453000>frosch123: pontifex and bridge builder "D
15:07<V453000>:D
15:08<V453000>those were teh days
15:08<andythenorth>V453000: maybe in 7 months more
15:08<V453000>k
15:08<V453000>will put on schedule
15:08<frosch123>V453000: i was thoroughly disappointed by pontifex
15:08<V453000>I dont remember shit tbh
15:09<frosch123>Alberth: andy likes duck-typing. so: if it is a ship that refits to coal, it's proabably a bulk freighter
15:09<andythenorth>'probably'
15:10<frosch123>V453000: blobby volley is the other thing that was played between cs 0.6-1.1 matches
15:10<andythenorth>the scenario approach worked ok with a game on a DVD eh
15:10<andythenorth>not so much with ottd
15:10<V453000>I was thinking about buying planet coaster
15:10<V453000>then I realized I might as well just play RCT2
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15:12<V453000>so I didn't do either
15:12<V453000>tada, conclusion
15:12<V453000>big story
15:12<Zuu>Hello
15:13<frosch123>computer games are like music :) if you know enough, everything is covered from some earlier one
15:13<frosch123>hoi zuu
15:13<moonpunter>this game has stood the test of time at least
15:14<andythenorth>lo Zuu
15:15<Zuu>I read about your road types work.
15:18<frosch123>can we recruit you to design the script api? :)
15:20<Zuu>Could be similar to rail types script API, although maybe some care is needed to not break most AIs in one go. :-)
15:21<frosch123>the compatibility layer would probably always build the first available road/tram type
15:22<Zuu>And then a method in the new version to set the road/tram type just like there is a method to set road or tram.
15:22<Zuu>And some list to get a list of all road/tram types.
15:22<frosch123>road/tram now play a more important role
15:23<frosch123>they are more like a infrastructure type on their own
15:23<frosch123>like tram having different reversal rules and such
15:24<Zuu>And abiliy to query properties of the types as long as it is possible and not the result of a cb or deep in to the newgrf. (lower speed in winter etc.)
15:24<frosch123>the properties work mostly the same as for railtypes
15:24<frosch123>and iirc there was an api for railtypes
15:25<Zuu>I never wrote a rail AI so I haven't looked too deep in to rail types. :-)
15:29<frosch123>oh, another weirdness: gs could build road with no owner/town owner; but not trams :p
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15:29<Zuu>frosch123: Why is that wierd in the game?
15:30<Zuu>Are you using reality as a point here?
15:30<Zuu>;-)
15:30<frosch123>hmm, actually, you can also build canals
15:30<frosch123>so tram should also be fine
15:31<frosch123>we do not offer it in scenario editor though
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15:32<Zuu>But sure, for some game modes or scenarios it could be interesting, and I would not oppose giving GS that power.
15:32<Zuu>I don't think we will break any GS by allowing it to build trams.
15:32<frosch123>the thing was: rail is only company owned and is removed when bankrupt
15:32<frosch123>road can be town owned
15:33<Zuu>s/trams/tram rails/
15:33<frosch123>tram cannot be town owner, but is also not removed when bankrupt
15:33<frosch123>but then i remembered that canals behave the same as tram
15:33<frosch123>canals are also not town owned, but are not removed when bankrupt
15:34<Zuu>So if tram is not removed when bankrupt, will it still have a company id as owner? Or was it that deity and town is two separate values?
15:34<frosch123>tram and canal are OWNER_NONE after bankrupt
15:34<frosch123>everyone can remove them
15:34<frosch123>road turns into OWNER_TOWN when near a town, and OWNER_NONE when far away
15:34<frosch123>or something like that
15:35<frosch123>town can also build road, which you cannot easily remove
15:35<frosch123>while clearing OWNER_NONE stuff is unlimited
15:35<Zuu>I guess the reason to not let towns own tram was that towns would then have to be teached what to do with the tram network.
15:36<frosch123>nah, it was actually bit stuffing :)
15:36<ConductCat>:3
15:36<frosch123>15 companies, 1 no company
15:36<frosch123>town owner requires another bit
15:36<Zuu>:-)
15:36<frosch123>the regular tile owner is 5 bits
15:37<Zuu>Ok
15:37<frosch123>but since stations have 3 owners meanwhile, it needed to safe bits
15:37<frosch123>(roadstop owner, road owner, tram owner)
15:37<frosch123>weirdness :)
15:38*andythenorth has too much indirection in this ship compile
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15:38<andythenorth>capacity -> by cargo -> by size class -> from hull class
15:38<andythenorth>that’s ridiculous :P
15:39<andythenorth>4 lookups / method calls to get capacity :P
15:39<frosch123>i believe you can make it ludicrous
15:40<andythenorth>I was wondering about mixins
15:40<andythenorth>I could add a mixin to the hull class, providing a size
15:42<andythenorth>ha ha
15:42<andythenorth>frosch123 the diagram here is like your diagram for capacity http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=246341
15:50<frosch123>but i can read my diagram
15:50<frosch123>can the author of that read their diagram?
15:51<andythenorth>I think not :)
15:51<andythenorth>I will not miss being free of Plone, once I am finally free of Plone
15:51<andythenorth>bue h
15:51<andythenorth>poor typing :P
15:51<frosch123>https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/images/grfwiki/3/35/CargoMagic12flag5cleared.dot.png <- there is even only one cross-over
15:52<andythenorth>much nicer :)
16:03<frosch123>am i done with watching ludicrous related scenes on yt?
16:03<frosch123>i even found one which i did not remember
16:11<andythenorth>it sucks me in
16:12<andythenorth>right now I have gone from take-apart videos of dangerous electrical devices
16:12<andythenorth>to this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfLbfGGhE_A
16:12<andythenorth>in two clicks
16:12<frosch123>how boring
16:13<frosch123>some years ago the sun-equivalent reported about two women competing on how many they could handle in one day
16:13<andythenorth>the YT automatic subtitles really don’t handle regional English accents
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16:18<frosch123>https://youtu.be/yprhPXm-_c8?t=72 <- maybe that is still a better hobby then
16:18<+glx><andythenorth> right now I have gone from take-apart videos of dangerous electrical devices <-- bigclivedotcom ?
16:18<andythenorth>yup
16:18<+glx>crazy chinese devices :)
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16:19<Vinicius_Brasil>hi
16:19<Vinicius_Brasil>anybody wants to play online?
16:26<Supercheese>Reddit's r/OpenTTD servers are usually populated
16:26<frosch123>you can also sort the server list by number of active clients :)
16:27<andythenorth>is the subreddit for ottd good?
16:27<frosch123>it has no original informat
16:27<frosch123>it's a link aggegator for forums
16:28<frosch123>and a support forum
16:28<frosch123>i like it for the latter, because i am not involved :)
16:29<andythenorth>fair :)
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16:46<jack__>if anybody wantsto play the servers name is jack's server
16:48<jack__>anybody wants?]
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16:58<Wolf01>'night
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18:36<Eddi|zuHause>i've completely lost track of what the transmitter thread is trying to achieve
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>less obstacles?
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>more obstacles?
18:37<Eddi|zuHause>more obstacles that are less obstacly?
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19:19<Flygon>Eddi|zuHause: More Cowbell
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21:16<_dp_>more or less, obstacles
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21:45<Eddi|zuHause>that was helpful, thanks.
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---Logclosed Tue Jan 10 00:00:55 2017