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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-01-13

---Logopened Fri Jan 13 00:00:59 2017
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07:32<MonkeyDrone>o/ aloha people. is there anyway to get in touch with Jinassi besides IRC?
07:39<V453000>touch him real hard
07:39<V453000>try reddit
07:40<V453000>(website, not IRC)
07:45<MonkeyDrone>IRL, he better be damn hot for that to happen
07:45<MonkeyDrone>i'll shoot him a pm on reddit if it's possiburu
07:49<@peter1138>Is this directory services?
07:53<MonkeyDrone>it is now!
07:53<MonkeyDrone>all your dreams come true here
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08:26<roidal>may anyone explain me the frame-packet:
08:26<roidal>seems like iam not getting the point of it, especially because the exact meaning of "Frame counter" and "frame counter max"
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>the way i see it, it's a measure how far the server may be ahead of all the clients, to make sure all clients have time to process the commands that the server sends out
08:36<Eddi|zuHause>or the other way around
08:37<Eddi|zuHause>when a client processes a click from a player, it may not know what frame the server will assign this click to
08:38<roidal>its not clear to me why
08:39<roidal>ok, which one of both has the higher value? "counter" or "counter max"?
08:39<roidal>from the description is think its counter?
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>yes, i think it's the counter. the counter says at which frame the server currently is, and the frame counter max the frame that the server thinks it's safe for clients to advance to because all data is present
08:40<Eddi|zuHause>or something
08:44<roidal>and the "Frame of execution" in the Command-packet say that this command should be executed when "frame counter max" >= "frame of execution"
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>so i think what it's meant to do (for the client) is: collect DoCommands, advance to max frame, collect DoCommands, advance to next max frame, etc.
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>no, the Command packet must be executed on the exact tick
08:44<Eddi|zuHause>not >=
08:45<roidal>thats exactly why iam wondering about "max"
08:45<Eddi|zuHause>i think it's to allow reducing the net_frame_freq, so you process multiple ticks at the same time
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08:46<roidal>no, the execution of the command have to be at the same frame/tick as set in the "frame of execution", but the client is allowed to handle all commands up to "frame counter max"?
08:46<roidal>i see
08:47<Eddi|zuHause>but the client will still process them tick-by-tick, just multiple ticks in a row
08:48<roidal>so, frame != tick?
08:48<roidal>i don't see a tick-number within the command-packet?
08:49<roidal>hey andythenorth
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>no, tick is the internal clock of the client, the frame may wobble a bit due to network delays
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>so the client may spend some ticks doing nothing
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>and then speeding up a bit to catch up
08:49<Eddi|zuHause>on average, they should balance out
08:50<roidal>so, frame-numbers match tick-numbers, but there may less frames than ticks?
08:51<Eddi|zuHause>something like that
08:51<roidal>nice, political, answer
08:52<Eddi|zuHause>well, i'm not the resident network protocol expert...
08:52<roidal>is there still one?
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09:16<andythenorth>lo Alberth
09:46<@Alberth>and the weekend barely started :)
09:48<Wolf01>And I'm already bored
09:52<supermop_>ok i have every sprite except for bridge overlays
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09:55<supermop_>i guess i can just copy those from ogfx
09:56<supermop_>but really dont feel like adding another row to my png
09:56<@Alberth>take an entire new png instead!
09:57<supermop_>V453000: how does layering sprites work, is it only useful for cargo?
09:57<andythenorth>in vehicles?
09:59<supermop_>could you make a locomotive grf that only contains a cab sprite, and 1-3 'chunks' of locomotive side, then just combine those in various ways to make several locomotives?
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09:59<@Alberth>andy does such things at source level :)
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10:00<supermop_>like a steam train has the front thing that has the headlamp and chimney, thats usually black, then a short cc cylinder for a segment of boiler
10:00<supermop_>then you just repeat that boiler sprite as much as you need
10:00<andythenorth>you could
10:01<andythenorth>I did code totally procedural trucks a long time ago
10:01<supermop_>thought experiment on 2CC 32bpp train that isn't like 1GB
10:01<andythenorth>they lack character, it’s ultimately easier just to draw them
10:02<andythenorth>I am using standard hulls for Sam, and comping the holds / tanks / whatever over that
10:02<supermop_>what about each game each locomotive randomly gets either a US or UK style cab
10:02<andythenorth>yes that could be done
10:02<andythenorth>I do it in python, because I can then open the spritesheet and immediately see all the states, no need to run a test game
10:03<andythenorth>I use the vehicle sprite layers for ship wakes
10:03<andythenorth>because they don’t need to be in the spritesheet
10:03<andythenorth>so I use both methods in one ship
10:04<Lejving>why can't you have the ship hull in one .png (it stays the same) then just swap out the above picture with cargo.png?
10:05<@Alberth>different width, height, and colours of each ship
10:05<@Alberth>ie to look good, you must do each one separately
10:05<Wolf01> exactly my plans for the weekend
10:05<Lejving>well for one ship
10:06<@Alberth>Wolf01: looks difficult :)
10:08<@Alberth>Lejving: to make it look good, you start with drawing the cargo in the ship sprite
10:08<@Alberth>so to make them separate is more work
10:08<@Alberth>as you have to split them afterwards
10:08<Lejving>ok :)
10:09<@Alberth>feel free to prove me wrong though :)
10:17<Lejving>epic paint skills
10:17<Lejving>but this probably explains how I think more Alberth
10:18<Lejving>I'm just a hobby coder though so probably don't understnad this deep programing :)
10:19<andythenorth>Lejving: the ships are in here
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10:20<andythenorth>this is a standard hull (only the purple one is drawn correctly)
10:20<andythenorth>this is then comped over them
10:20<Lejving>aha cool
10:20<andythenorth>cargo is then drawn on
10:21<Lejving>then you're pretty much doing waht I thought
10:21<Lejving>just more advanced
10:21<andythenorth>the wakes are put in by ottd, using layered sprites
10:21<andythenorth>they hide / show for stopped / moving ships
10:22<Lejving>interesting :)
10:22<andythenorth>there’s some extra stuff with masks that I won’t get into :P
10:23<@Alberth>Lejving: may I recommend a bit of Python, and PIL ?
10:23<andythenorth>end result is
10:23<andythenorth>(except that’s currently broken, work in progress)
10:23<Lejving>never used PIL but I have some python experience
10:24<@Alberth>trivial to paint pixels on an image
10:25<@Alberth>and a lot of fun :)
10:26<@Alberth>New PIL is named Pillow
10:34<supermop_>well i cut open my thumb shattering floor tile samples in our stairwell
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10:49<andythenorth>supermop_: don’t bleed out
10:49<supermop_>thanks for the advice
10:55<supermop_>do we still have to provide the 'back' truss on bridges as part of the road?
10:56<Wolf01>Is nrt hype already gone?
10:56<supermop_>Wolf01: i havent even coded my nrt grf yet
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10:57<Wolf01>1-3 people talking about it or working on it is not hype
10:57<Wolf01>There's more hype about transmitters
11:16<andythenorth>Wolf01: nrt IS NOT UNDERGROUND ROADS
11:16<andythenorth>MUST CAN HAZ UNDERGROUDN
11:16<andythenorth>MORE EXCITING IF YOU CANT SEE IT!!!
11:17<Wolf01>I would go for eddi's implementation of multi level roads/rails, underground is not my priority
11:18<supermop_>make it like locomotion, where you accidentally blow up invisible town buildings whenever you try to modify tracks or roads underground
11:20<andythenorth>nrt hype is limited by needing nml fork
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11:20<supermop_>i like the assertion that magic buldozer is an unacceptable cheat, but patching the game to bypass intentional limitations is not
11:21<Wolf01>Only because "build while in pause" is not a cheat anymore
11:21<andythenorth>it’s to do with how you feel
11:22<andythenorth>configuring a setting doesn’t make you feel bad
11:22<supermop_>being able to play the game without stupid AIs ruining the map is a cheat
11:22<andythenorth>‘cheating’ makes you feel bad
11:22<Wolf01>TBH, I would like to have different kinds of unmovables placed on map generation
11:22<andythenorth>I give zero fucks, whilst totally understanding the user
11:22<andythenorth>it’s a totally non-interesting problem to consider
11:22<supermop_>patch to change 'cheat menu' to 'philosophical gameplay settings'
11:23<andythenorth>should title that as “fucks I don’t give menu”
11:23<andythenorth>Money: no fucks given, give me more
11:23<andythenorth>Date: don’t give a fuck, use this one
11:23*andythenorth should stop
11:23<@Alberth>quite :)
11:23<@Alberth>we get the idea :)
11:24<andythenorth>I blame V453000
11:24<supermop_>related sentiment i've seen, no names given, 'no inflation is cheating' but 'playing with many non balanced newgrfs at the same time is not'
11:25<andythenorth>people gonna people :)
11:25<andythenorth>supermop_: is your nrt grf done yet? o_O
11:26<supermop_>that egrvts flatbed that carries 72 head of livestock from your dairy farm whilst your ukrs wagon only hold 6...
11:26<supermop_>andythenorth: sprites are
11:41<supermop_>have a strong disinclination to code it
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11:57<andythenorth>mu mu
11:59<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: ukrs is a bit low on capacities in general (supposed to make the game "harder", i guess), and livestock is a bit weird anyway...
12:00<Eddi|zuHause>because it's meant to simulate that livestock is not transported by rail anmore in modern times
12:00<supermop_>UKRS stock seems to be cattle, and egrvts seems to be chickens, so the disparity is quite stark
12:01<Eddi|zuHause>still, you're mixing two sets that serve totally different balancing approaches
12:02<andythenorth>what’s needed
12:02<supermop_>but yeah, what i meant though is that playing with sets with wildly different ideas about capacity seems just as much of a cheat as say, disabling inflation
12:02<andythenorth>is sets with a common schema
12:02<andythenorth>who’d do that though? o_O
12:04<supermop_>and that it strikes me as tone deaf to complain that playing with feature X is a cheat, while then also using feature Y to totally unbalance the game
12:04<supermop_>andythenorth: want to code my roads
12:05<Eddi|zuHause>supermop_: are you talking about baldy's boss? he's a bit... special...
12:05<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: tangentially, but also transmitted topic
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>he's part of that thread, i think
12:06<Eddi|zuHause>the transmitter thread is... special... as well... everybody seems to talk about something completely different
12:07<supermop_>to me it seems if you are going to worry about 'cheating' patching the game to alter gameplay is at least as much of a cheat as turning on bulldozer sparingly
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but psychologically, it's different.
12:08<andythenorth>it is
12:08<supermop_>if anything, patching the game is worse, as now its no longer even the same game
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>like, in a crime series, the people who raid shops and take everything they can carry are criminals, but in a zombie series, the people who raid shops and take everything they can carry are the heroes.
12:09<supermop_>why hasn't anyone told him to load map in SE to remove transmitter? i do that occasionally to fix rivers
12:10<supermop_>local record shop closed and all the labels that have releases out today i want to buy are in UK so i'd have to pay like 15 quid royal mail to buy direct
12:11<supermop_>i should load NYC into scenario editor to put a record shop back into my neighborhood
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>what do you use physical records for anyway?
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>[by "physical records" i include CDs, and everything]
12:14<@Alberth>hard-disks, network cables, ..
12:18<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: looking at on the shelf
12:19<supermop_>being inside the record shop is probably the best part of the experience
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12:21<supermop_>MP3 is a cheat
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12:21<supermop_>lossless encoding is a cheat
12:21<supermop_>i need a switch added to turn all of my MP3s into vinyl records
12:24<supermop_>andythenorth: should i even bother with a harbor tramway? or let use build regular tram types over bits of the chips road to save a few slots?
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12:36<andythenorth>supermop_: start without it
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12:36<andythenorth>always start nearly-spartan
12:36<andythenorth>have too many ideas, reduce most of them, leave it slightly bloated
12:36<andythenorth>then add more when the core is strong
12:36*andythenorth does have methods, whatever it looks like from the outside :P
12:37<supermop_>well there are sprite sheets for tram and tram overlays, but i'd be fine doing without for now
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13:13<roidal>is UDP required for a multiplayer game?
13:14<SpComb>afaik only LAN discovery
13:15<frosch123>also for non-lan discovery
13:15<frosch123>if you know the url of your server, you do not need udp though
13:18<roidal>oh, my fault
13:18<roidal>wrong configuration
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13:24<supermop_>frosch123: do you have a chunk of sample nrt nml? i had some last week but lost it
13:24<supermop_>looks like im going to need to suck it up and try to code this thing
13:25<supermop_>i can't even remember how i used to format my grf ids. DE something i think
13:27<frosch123>there is an example in the nml fork
13:27<frosch123>which you also need to compile
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13:28<supermop_>might need to do this later this weekend then
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13:40*andythenorth should get on and write a developer job ad
13:40<andythenorth>what should it say?
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13:42<Wolf01>"Don't be like Wolf"
13:44<frosch123>"eu imigrants welcome"?
13:44<andythenorth>here’s the last one:
13:44<andythenorth>didn’t work :P
13:45<andythenorth>frosch123: no idea, but ‘brexit means brexit'
13:45<andythenorth>whatever that means
13:45<frosch123>maybe the mac scared people away
13:47<andythenorth>some of you have jobs?
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13:51*andythenorth wonders how people get jobs
13:51<Wolf01>Me too
13:51<andythenorth>I had a job a few times, in supermarkets
13:53<__ln__>even apple doesn't have jobs anymore, as he passed away.
13:55<andythenorth>it does have a jobs page
13:55<andythenorth>it’s quite…corporate :P
13:58<frosch123>we get almost everyone via private agents
13:58<frosch123>or however that translates
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14:04<supermop_>we say recruiters
14:04<supermop_>last 2-4 jobs ive got nearly by accident
14:05<andythenorth>we say “please don’t call us again"
14:05<andythenorth>all our current developers are by accident or FOAF
14:05<supermop_>wife however busting her ass researching then studying for a select few companies she wanted to work at last round
14:06<supermop_>andythenorth: are you going to make the applicants do homework?
14:06<andythenorth>we do that in the interview
14:07<supermop_>facebook flew her to bay area just to do 8 hours of whiteboard math and coding
14:07<supermop_>for a job in the nyc office
14:08<supermop_>also: cuba has some cool rusty old soviet jetliners sitting on tarmac
14:09<supermop_>saw a cubana liveried one of these:
14:10<andythenorth>what do people want from a job?
14:10<supermop_>and excuse to leave house
14:11<andythenorth>anything else?
14:11<andythenorth>“Will pay you to leave house, tweet me to apply"
14:12<frosch123>you want those who want an interesting job
14:13<frosch123>those who want to develop stuff, not those who specify stuff for external contractors
14:13<andythenorth>what if it’s not interesting :D
14:14<frosch123>creating stuff should be more interesting than maintaining stuff
14:15<andythenorth>what about creating tools to maintain stuff? o_O
14:16<frosch123>no idea, python is already a thing
14:16<supermop_>"seeking would be subjects of conceivable xkcd strips"
14:17<frosch123>"we don't do php"
14:18<frosch123>oh wait, andy would call it "NotPHP"
14:18<frosch123>hmm, though... tb started all the "no" stuff
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14:21<frosch123>maybe just use a cat picture
14:22<andythenorth>I NEED THIS
14:22<frosch123>work here, to keep this kitten fed
14:23<andythenorth>‘tell me where cat is, have job’
14:29<frosch123>i think you work in a different business than i do :)
14:30<andythenorth>unless you are in my office in disguise, I think that’s a safe bet :)
14:32<frosch123>maybe i am the cat
14:35<andythenorth>nobody knows where cat is
14:35*andythenorth makes ships
14:41<supermop_>hire a developer to make ships?
14:41<andythenorth>_probably_ not
14:42<andythenorth>ships don’t have scaling or data integrity issues
14:42<andythenorth>I can make them :)
14:44<supermop_>sounds like a challenge
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14:55<supermop_>i feel more or less done drawing chips roads
14:55<supermop_>what would be another good road grf? dirt roads?
14:58<frosch123>dirt, mud, snow
14:58<andythenorth>I am still slightly bothered by not being able to run supplies trucks on HAUL
14:58<andythenorth>but eh
14:59<andythenorth>haven’t thought of a pleasing workaround yet :)
15:00<supermop_>pick-ups and high flotation tires ok, everything else must use road
15:00<andythenorth>it’s a spec issue :P
15:00<andythenorth>maybe a supplies truck for HAUL
15:01<andythenorth>ach, rotten cucumber is unpleasant
15:04<frosch123>supermop_: are you interested in drawing alley trees? then i could add the roadside support
15:05<supermop_>frosch123: new trees all together, or taking trees from ogfx, or something else?
15:05<supermop_>andythenorth: roll some coal
15:05<frosch123>i think the regular trees would be too big
15:05<frosch123>not sure whether a variant of the city-center road-trees would work
15:05<supermop_>which seems to be what the haul trucks do now
15:06<supermop_>frosch123: modifying or scaling existing trees is easy enough
15:06<andythenorth>I was thinking
15:07<supermop_>we usually say 'allee' with an accent for those trees here because in american english and alley is the narrow dirty lane behind and between buildings where you set out the trash
15:07<supermop_>not much room for trees in there
15:07<supermop_>andythenorth: that is a big supply
15:08<supermop_>those look like they are for driving on dirt rather than some reinforced road though
15:09<supermop_>do australians call miners 'mine-ys'?
15:11<supermop_>tradesman -> tradie, mason -> brickie, carpenter -> chippy, electrician -> sparky
15:11<supermop_>coal miner -> coallie?
15:11<andythenorth>dunno :)
15:11<andythenorth>most of those are working-class UK English
15:11<andythenorth>except tradie
15:11<andythenorth>miner was miner
15:11<andythenorth>where I grew up
15:11<supermop_>that might just be a victoria think, maybe they dont use those words in queensland etc
15:12<andythenorth>and then miner was ‘unemployed'
15:12<andythenorth>but eh
15:12<Wolf01><andythenorth> “Will pay you to leave house, tweet me to apply" <- do you accept commuters too?
15:12<andythenorth>Wolf01: wondering today if I could commute
15:12<supermop_>that was the UK euphemism i heard a lot of living in north yorks in the 90s
15:12<andythenorth>from canary islands
15:12<andythenorth>20 degrees in canaries
15:13<supermop_>63 F in new york yesterday
15:13<andythenorth>0 degrees here
15:13<Wolf01>It's snowing here
15:13<supermop_>about 50 today
15:13<supermop_>19 F when i landed monday night
15:14<supermop_>they have that in uk?
15:14<supermop_>mining/excavation workers in mines and tunnels, bridge foundations underwater etc
15:15<supermop_>thats for the 2nd avenue subway thread
15:15<supermop_>Big TBM is bleeding our govt dry apparently
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15:40<+glx>use a real unit when you're talking about temperature :)
15:43<Wolf01>We could even say that about distance or even dates :P
15:43<+glx>and speed
15:45<+glx>at least K to C is easy
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15:48<__ln__>as is °R to °F
15:50<Wolf01>The problem is that °R and °F are weird as fuck, it's like dividing a whole in 27 parts (not that 12/24 or 360 is better)
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16:04<__ln__>Wolf01: but the advantage is that you have a nice round figure for a horse's body temperature.
16:04<Wolf01>Clearly useful
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>360 is a nice round number.
16:05<Eddi|zuHause>if you're using the babylonian base-60-system
16:06<+glx>works very well in geometry
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16:08<frosch123>Wolf01: °F is the attempt to draw a unique line through a single dot
16:09<+glx>°F has 2 reference points
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16:11<frosch123>glx: not really, 100°F has a reasonable definition. 0°F is the arbritary temperature that some guy 200 years ago could produce with his arbitrary chemistry skills
16:11<__ln__>wasn't it the coldest temperature in his home town during some winter?
16:11<frosch123>so, °F only has one reference point, the other is random
16:11<+glx>now 32°F and 212°F are well defined
16:12<__ln__>frosch123: you probably mean 'arbitrary', not 'random'
16:13<+glx>the random decision is 12 divisions with 8 subdivisons
16:13<Eddi|zuHause2>clearly we should make a unified standard that encompasses all temperature systems.
16:13<+glx>that's just silly
16:13<Lejving>how is the horse temprature ratio to JRHNBR?
16:14<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause2: what are the reference points for °Eddi ?
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16:14<andythenorth>supermop_: are you seeking coders via dm? o_O :)
16:14<frosch123>the temperature of your blood when reading the suggestion forum?
16:17<Eddi|zuHause2>frosch123: something like all odd numbers are °F and all even numbers are °C
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16:17<frosch123>only whole numbers?
16:18<+glx>4th decimal to be simpler :)
16:18<Eddi|zuHause>well, fractional numbers will be K, if they're in base 10, and °R in any other base
16:19<Eddi|zuHause>i don't even know what °R is
16:19<+glx>something like K but in °F :)
16:20<+glx>I asked wiki
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16:22<frosch123>Eddi|zuHause: the scale that you get by taking the slope from °F and the fix point from K
16:23<Eddi|zuHause>well, yes, that's the same way how you get K from °C
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16:59<andythenorth>is bed
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17:33<Wolf01> lol
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20:27<supermop>guess I should finally get around to buying tf
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23:29<MonkeyDrone>o/ anyone knows why OpenTTD is limited to max 512mb cache and hard coded to that limit? and if possible to increase it in a custom compile?
23:35<supermop>I THINK
23:36<supermop>everyone who knows is asleep
23:37<supermop>sorry I'm using a style too write
23:38<supermop>* stylus
23:56<MonkeyDrone>thanks supermop, i figured as well
23:57<MonkeyDrone>i'll check in again later :D
---Logclosed Sat Jan 14 00:00:01 2017