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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-01-22

---Logopened Sun Jan 22 00:00:12 2017
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01:13<@Alberth>moin
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01:49<adf88>yo
01:49<adf88>any forum mod here?
01:50<adf88>spam here: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=75831
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02:00<@Alberth>just report it with the ! button
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02:26<@Alberth>o/
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02:27<@Alberth>so you meant another riddle by GarryG :)
02:27<@Alberth>camel riddle was much nicer
02:28<andythenorth>I meant the riddle :)
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03:21<andythenorth>such ships
03:21*andythenorth busy
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04:19<Wolf01>o/
04:20<@Alberth>o/
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04:24<andythenorth>Alberth: would you be able to review the nml NRT fork? o_O
04:25<andythenorth>I’m not actually sure it’s ready yet, but eh
04:29*andythenorth needs a deadline
04:42<@Alberth>today would be fine :p
04:43<@Alberth>although I am pretty clueless on the GRFspec side of things, so it'll be mostly style and code sanity
04:48<@Alberth>nice HG usage/extensions article https://www.gamedev.net/resources/_/technical/apis-and-tools/intermediate-advanced-mercurial-dvcs-hg-tips-r4483
04:52<andythenorth>hmm
04:52<andythenorth>this diff has too much in it https://github.com/andythenorth/nml-andythenorth/compare/NotRoadTypes
04:52<andythenorth>.gitignore and the example newgrf aren’t relevant to nmlc :P
04:55<@Alberth>quite :)
04:55<@Alberth>example newgrf can be in regression tests though
04:55<@Alberth>there is a severe lack of those :)
04:57<andythenorth>yup
04:57<andythenorth>we need some apprentice contributors :P
04:58<@Alberth>I fear that would cost money :)
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04:59<@Alberth>"I want to hack nml" "oh great, go write regression tests then!"
04:59<@Alberth>not working, I think :)
05:00<andythenorth>:P
05:13*andythenorth wonders again, who needs a ship with 720 bags of mail? :P
05:13<andythenorth>my game has a 41k popn city, with 2000 mailbags per month
05:16<@Alberth>only time I needed a mail ship was with servicing some small islands, which BB made me do
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05:16<@Alberth>it had less than 720 popn :p
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05:18<andythenorth>ha, if I apply the 2:1 mail ratio I use in Road Hog
05:18<andythenorth>it’s 1440 mailbags or so :P
05:18<andythenorth>how silly
05:20<@Alberth>how fast should mail be delivered? ie, does it age fast?
05:20<@Alberth>ships make no sense then
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05:20<@Alberth>it'd need water-planes!
05:20<andythenorth>:P
05:22<andythenorth>mail is quite a harsh payment curve
05:22*andythenorth checked
05:27<@Alberth>likely if you have a few big towns next to water, mail transport could work
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05:37<adf88>hi
05:37<adf88>i'm considering a new feature to my "House Placing" patch
05:37<adf88>i'm curious about your opinion
05:38<adf88>while in "newgame" mode (not scenario editor)
05:38<adf88>allow placing houses only next to roads
05:38<adf88>connected with the town the house is about to be added
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05:39<adf88>I want to make adding houses in-game to be sth like funding industries
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05:40<adf88>currently roads just don't matter, perhaps they should?
05:44<adf88>houses without roads next to them will be slowly dying, that's why i'm concened
05:44<andythenorth>you want to fix it for default game, not in newgrf?
05:45<adf88>yes
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05:46<adf88>when placing manually, houses would be allowed only around town-connected roads
05:47*andythenorth never uses scenario, so no +/-0
05:47<andythenorth>* no opinion
05:47<adf88>not in SE, in normal game :)
05:47<adf88>in SE there would be no limit
05:47<andythenorth>oops :)
05:48<adf88>in mean normal game, something similar to funding industries but for houses
05:49<@Alberth>for what purpose?
05:49<@Alberth>transport tycoons going into house rental business?
05:50<adf88>1. houses not next to roads will die after some time, a player might be confused "hey, where my houses gone"
05:50<@Alberth>killing all city GSes?
05:51<@Alberth>I haven't yet reached the point where manually adding a house in-game makes sense to me
05:52<adf88>2. this would be more challenging and would force you to keep "some" road layout, no "clusters" allowed etc.
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06:38<@Alberth>o/
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>adf88: there is a "fund new buildings" option in every town already... why would you hand-place houses?
06:43<frosch123>hoi
06:43<Eddi|zuHause>i mean, other than for furthering your micromanagement fetish
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06:49<adf88>there are other reasons too
06:49<adf88>some houses provide/accept resources other then pax/mail
06:49<adf88>also you may wan't to concentrate houses near specific places e.g. your stations
06:50<adf88>but mainly it's for SE and eyecandy ;)
06:51<adf88>in-game placing of houses is to provide something like industry purchasing
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07:44<frosch123>andythenorth: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1181890#p1181890 <- want to add the binary link to first post?
07:45<andythenorth>done
07:45<andythenorth>thanks
07:48<SpComb>adf88: there's a game called Cities: Skylines that you can buy
07:50<andythenorth>bbl
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08:13<@DorpsGek>Commit by frosch :: r27739 trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp (2017-01-22 14:13:15 +0100 )
08:13<@DorpsGek>-Cleanup/Revert (r12162): Clearing MP_HOUSE with DC_EXEC always fails, so there is no effect in testing for houses first. (adf88)
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08:38<Eddi|zuHause>adf88: i have nothing against SE house placing, but ingame house placing will get you the usual "this is not sim city" reply.
08:43<adf88>same argument can be brought against funding industries in-game right?
08:43<adf88>i mean that the difference isn't that big
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08:50<@Alberth>industry is more comparable to a town than to a single house, and we already have "found town"
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08:52<@Alberth>oh joy, save/load of std::string :p
08:54<adf88>"industry is more comparable to a town than to a single house" thats questionable :P
08:54<adf88>banks etc.
08:54<adf88>in-game placing is rather for it's cargo
08:55<adf88>not "shaping" towns
08:55<@Alberth>should be an industry that you place then?
08:56<@Alberth>I would say, you place towns and industries for building new stations
08:56<@Alberth>you don't build a new station for a single house
08:58<@Alberth>I never use those facilities, and am in fact not even convinced that adding new industries and towns by the user is a good idea
09:00<@Alberth>new industries were perhaps inherited from the original game (not sure about that)
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09:01<@Alberth>new towns I am still failing to understand why that was added
09:02<@Alberth>but someone thought otherwise
09:06<adf88>for example, in ECS vector town buildings involve in cargo chains
09:06<adf88>maybe there could be some use
09:07<adf88>placing few houses here are there may be usefull
09:07<adf88>in harsh environments
09:08<Eddi|zuHause>funding industries was a new core feature in TTD (for the tropic sawmill, that does not spawn automatically), it was not present in TTO (i think)
09:09<Eddi|zuHause>adf88: the problem with ECS stuff is that those buildings should have been industries in the first place
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09:10<Eddi|zuHause>adf88: putting in new features to patch up bad design decisions is not necessarily the right way to go
09:11<adf88>no, it's not to patch ECS
09:11<@Alberth>good point about the swamill
09:12<@Alberth>*sawmill
09:21<frosch123>the goal of "fund town" was to make the game continue after you connected everything
09:21<frosch123>similar to funding/prospecting industries
09:22<frosch123>as i see it, "funding new houses" via town authority is equivalent to "prospect industry"
09:22<frosch123>while building single houses would be equivalent to "place industry in specific position"
09:28<adf88>town building always were accepting different cargoes
09:28<adf88>e.g. goods
09:28<adf88>it was not ECS that invented this
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09:31<adf88>and it's about all town cargoes, pax and mail too
09:31<adf88>its micromanaging, yes
09:35<adf88>it can be found useful when "fund town" is too much
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10:00<Wolf01><adf88> also you may wan't to concentrate houses near specific places e.g. your stations <- you will solve that with proper town growth algorythm, not by doing that manually
10:01<Wolf01>Oh, he left
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10:47<supermop_home>that SV goal took me longer than it should have
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10:49<frosch123>supermop_home: there is now a notroadtype nml binary on the forums, in case you need one
10:49<frosch123>(for windows)
10:49<supermop_home>cool!
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10:50<supermop_home>my production of ensp jumped from 1,997/q to 3100/q in one quarter due to just a few timetable optimizations
10:51<supermop_home>so here i was thinking I was in bad shape and in need of major track rework and funding more industries beyond the goal amount
10:51<supermop_home>when suddenly I get the won box
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10:52<supermop_home>bronze medal though...
10:53<supermop_home>brb coffee
11:02<@Alberth>nice improvement :)
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11:51<andythenorth>Wolf01: LAs are crap
11:51<andythenorth>every time I try to use them, they’re a waste of time :P
11:51*andythenorth reverting back to pneumatics
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13:14*andythenorth has to bring back the FISH Island Trader
13:14<andythenorth>that was the most boss ship in FISH anyway
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13:48<supermop_home>andythenorth yess
13:48<supermop_home>traders everywhere for everything
13:50<supermop_home>SV won dialog box has a button labeled 'accept'
13:50<supermop_home>what if I don't want to accept the result
13:51<Eddi|zuHause>what if i don't want to accept a site's cookie policy?
13:51<supermop_home>what if the policy is a free cookie?
13:52<frosch>there was no "meh" button
13:52<Eddi|zuHause>there is no such thing as a free cookie
13:53<supermop_home>best cookies around here are like $3, it's absurd
13:54<frosch>per piece? per ton?
13:54<supermop_home>per cookie
13:56<frosch>hmm, i think my favorite cookie is one of those that i bake myself
13:56<supermop_home>they certainly work out to be cheaper per cookie
13:56<frosch>so, quite cheap, but involves work
13:56<supermop_home>plus the benefit of making your house smell nice
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14:02<Eddi|zuHause>i haven't baked cookies in forever
14:02<frosch>i do about every december
14:03<Eddi|zuHause>i have family members who do that
14:03<frosch>i am that family member :p
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14:03<Eddi|zuHause>that would be news to me :p
14:03<supermop_home>haha
14:03<supermop_home>can you be my cookie baking family too?
14:04<frosch>not sure how they would take shipping
14:04<supermop_home>I am happy to eat broken cookies
14:04<frosch>i am more concerned about moisture
14:05<Eddi|zuHause>they invented plastic bags for that
14:05<frosch>i have nothing to vacuum pack them
14:06<Eddi|zuHause>how would that need vacuum?
14:06<supermop_home>andythenorth: the army of RH supplies trucks that won me my ENSP SV game look a bit forlorne with no cargo
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14:06<frosch>Eddi|zuHause: moisture correlates with temperature
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14:10<Eddi|zuHause>but that means you need dry air when packing, that's significantly lower requirement than vacuum
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14:16<andythenorth>supermop_home: cargo I should do eh?
14:19<Markk>Hai folks, I just have a quick question, should I try to move some of the adjoining stations up to the right to be able to create a similar layout to the station down to the right, or is it similar in efficiency? http://i.imgur.com/qFt7LEc.png
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14:19<Markk>Oh, second one should be down to the left*
14:21<Eddi|zuHause>RORO stations (left version) can be the most efficient, but requires a lot of space, terminus stations (right version) can be more compact, but less efficient, as exiting trains may block entering trains.
14:22<Eddi|zuHause>with clever design, you can get terminus stations to almost the same efficiency as roro stations
14:23<Markk>Ah, that's what I thought. :)
14:26<Markk>On the terminus station to the right I have two exit tracks with one inbound (the tracks that takes off down to the left is not in use). So with the PBS signals I've managed to avoid blocking inbound trains when anouther departs.
14:27<Markk>I shall look into if I can manage to squeeze in another RoRo station, it's quite tight as it is with a 64x64 map.
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14:36<andythenorth>to sort this mess out… http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8334/sam-depot-view.png
14:37<andythenorth>I use this? https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Vehicles#Sprites_in_GUI
14:46<frosch>hmm, i thought it did that stuff automatically
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14:46<frosch>reload the game?
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14:51<andythenorth>might just be terrible offsets
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14:51<frosch>well, make it look good on the map first then :)
14:51<frosch>depot should adjust itself
14:51<frosch>but it may not work when reloading newgrf in-game
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14:55<andythenorth>ok :)
14:55<Eddi|zuHause>it doesn't recalculate on reloading newgrf? which idiot programmed this stuff...
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14:56<frosch>"may", i did not check it
14:56<Eddi|zuHause>on that note, i only recall it was meant to adjust depot grid sizes, not the vehicle view
14:57<frosch>then make a patch to make vehicle view work like depot view
14:57<andythenorth>vehicle view looks ok for Sam, ironically :P
14:57<andythenorth>but refit window is quite…cropped
14:57<Eddi|zuHause>i'm really not going to do that.
14:58<frosch>i already had to finish your other patch
14:58<supermop_home>andythenorth is the supplies truck meant to have a transformer or heqs dozer etc on it?
14:59<andythenorth>it should have something
14:59*andythenorth looks
14:59<andythenorth>supermop_home: has a tarp for now :P
14:59<supermop_home>as is, it is empty with a full load of ensp
14:59<andythenorth>oh that must be a bug :D
14:59<andythenorth>sprite has a tarp in it
15:00<supermop_home>makes my 1000 crate a month ENSP conglomeration look a bit pathetic
15:01<supermop_home>all the trucks leave the machine shop empty
15:02<supermop_home>its for the brigand
15:02<supermop_home>unsure if affects the older models
15:04<supermop_home>how about new cargo 'tarps' to boost productivity of machine shop
15:04<supermop_home>"your dream is to turn Gadhattan into Tarp Valley"
15:05*andythenorth needs a new GS
15:05<supermop_home>tarp GS
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15:33<andythenorth>supermop_home: fixed and pushed
15:33<supermop_home>cool
15:33<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/road-hog/repository/revisions/9eba1ed4e696
15:40<andythenorth>busy bee or SV?
15:40<supermop_home>hmm?
15:41*andythenorth has to start a test game for Sam
15:42<supermop_home>busy bee in an archipelago likely best for ship variety
15:44<Wolf01>Oh, busy day on minecraft today :P
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16:01<andythenorth>bye
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19:05<Wolf01>'night
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21:02<markasoftware>hi
21:03<markasoftware>just started playing today
21:03<markasoftware>fun game
21:16<markasoftware>what are some good world generation settings?
21:16<markasoftware>for a beginner?
21:44<supermop>128x128 or 256x256
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22:14<Lejving>hey markasoftware when you're bored of singleplayer you should totally check out #openttdcoop.stable
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23:12<markasoftware>why would i want a small map rather than a big one?
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23:29<supermop>easier to connect everything on a small map
23:34<markasoftware>"road vehicle 5 is lost"
23:34<markasoftware>it jumped to a disconnected area
23:34<markasoftware>not connected by roads
23:37<Lejving>supermop, you got any nml exp?
23:37<Lejving>(doubt anyone else is awake)
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23:47<supermop>not much
23:49<markasoftware>i did a subsidy thing, how do i claim the money?
23:50<supermop>It is not a lump amount
23:51<markasoftware>ok
23:52<supermop>it you deliver the cargo as requested the payments for each delivery will be more than normal
23:52<supermop>sorry im writing with a stylus
23:52<markasoftware>i placed a statidon within range of the sawmill but it says "accepts nothing"...
23:53<supermop>not all tiles of every industry anept the car go
23:54<markasoftware>i deleted an old station there
23:54<markasoftware>then made a new one and it no longer works
23:54<markasoftware>and the name stays in grey even after a destroy the station
23:54<supermop>when building the station, check that it says wood accepted
23:54<markasoftware>it doesn't
23:54<markasoftware>that's the problem
23:54<Lejving>how sure are you that you're in range?
23:55<supermop>then you must build it closer
23:55<markasoftware>OOH lol i was trying to build a bus station
23:55<markasoftware>it needs to be truck
23:55<Lejving>hah
23:55<Lejving>believe me I've done that so many times
23:55<supermop>a deleted station remains for so me fine
23:55<markasoftware>the icons are so damn small
23:55<markasoftware>can i make them a bit bigger (but not 2x) in the cfg or something?
23:55<supermop>some time
23:56<supermop>there is a setting somewhere now
23:56<markasoftware>well i don't know if that subsidy is going to pay off rebuilding the station like 5 times
23:56<supermop>not sure where
23:57<markasoftware>do you start losing money on a route if you do it too much?
23:57<supermop>not really
23:58<supermop>ok i have to go to bed
23:58<Lejving>there should be to double the size of gui
23:58<Lejving>in settings
23:58<Lejving>afaik?
23:58<markasoftware>i don't want to double it
23:58<markasoftware>that's too big
23:58<markasoftware>i tried already
23:58<Lejving>oh didn't read the "but not 2x" :P
23:58<markasoftware>how can I view the price of stuff
23:58<markasoftware>before i buy it
23:59<Lejving>press shift before you place
23:59<markasoftware>i can see it for vehiclesl and stuff, but what about stations, etc
23:59<Lejving>will give you estimated cost
23:59<markasoftware>nothinsg changes when i press shift
23:59<Lejving>shift+click
---Logclosed Mon Jan 23 00:00:02 2017