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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-01-29

---Logopened Sun Jan 29 00:00:22 2017
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02:45<@Alberth>moin
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02:53<andythenorth>such Sunday
02:55<@Alberth>yep :)
03:01<@Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/off-track-tram.png some tram parts are driving next to the track in a corner :)
03:02<andythenorth>interesting
03:03<@Alberth>iron horse 1.9.1, stakebeek flatbed tram
03:04<@Alberth>at least I hope it's IH
03:04<andythenorth>Road Hog :D
03:04<andythenorth>animal / animal /s
03:05<@Alberth>ah :) 1.1.0 then :)
03:05*andythenorth looks
03:05<@peter1138>offsets eh
03:06<@Alberth>I think it's the only corner where this happens, and only in this direction
03:06<@Alberth>but the other corners are much harder to check
03:07<andythenorth>offsets always
03:07<@Alberth>universal way of fixing things :)
03:12<andythenorth>Alberth: although it looks wrong (verified here), it’s ‘right’ according to the BB
03:12<@Alberth>:O
03:13<andythenorth>although not for some other angles :P
03:13<andythenorth>the – in the opposite direction is quite wrong :P
03:13<@Alberth>haha :)
03:14<andythenorth>but that one at least looks right in game :P
03:14<@Alberth>something nrt-ish perhaps?
03:14<andythenorth>nah
03:15<andythenorth>afaict, trams that are ‘correct’ for the BB are ‘wrong’ for the track sprites
03:15<andythenorth>that’s my best guess anyway, I’ve tried to solve this before :)
03:16<@Alberth>so, they're supposed to be wrong for BB :)
03:16<andythenorth>my assumption is that the track sprites and the actual vehicle movement don’t match up
03:16<andythenorth>and then that will also vary with newgrfs, for extra fun :)
03:17<@Alberth>combining vehicles of different newgrfs is an art in itself :p
03:18<andythenorth>some of the tram track grfs have different gauges
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03:19<andythenorth>although
03:19<andythenorth>the – view is hard to line up, because it’s a cube rotated 45 degrees
03:19<andythenorth>unlike the \ / views which are actually usefully when using ctrl-b
03:21<@Alberth>quite
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03:42*andythenorth ships
03:43<@Alberth>moar pixzelz
03:58<andythenorth>moar offsets :P
03:59<@Alberth>less ship-parts :)
04:00<andythenorth>fewer lengths
04:01<andythenorth>and no need to line up with tracks :P
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04:18<@Alberth>:)
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04:32<andythenorth>eh
04:32<andythenorth>what would be nice
04:32<andythenorth>is a new GS
04:35<V453000>I have a serious train problem
04:35<andythenorth>srsly?
04:35<V453000>no matter what kind of train I draw or render, it will never look better than 8bpp slugs
04:37<andythenorth>iz problem
04:38<V453000>if 32bpp doesn't look good after I'm done with photoshoping it to shit, and writing a custom 32-8bpp converter, I will probably just return to drawing 8bpp
04:38<andythenorth>as a copy of the 32bpp, but drawn?
04:39<andythenorth>or just no 32bpp?
04:39<V453000>just no 32bpp
04:39<V453000>ofc Eventually if I have mental breakdown, I can add 32bpp, but not replace 8bpp
04:39<V453000>works for nuts
04:39<@Alberth>:O
04:40*andythenorth is not convinced 32bpp has moved ottd world forward
04:40<@Alberth>ask that to all the zBase fans :p
04:40<andythenorth>about 4 beautiful sets, none finished, all different
04:40<andythenorth>and some fugly stuff
04:40<V453000>well it's because with the more options and availability you get, the harder making the graphics good actually g ets
04:40<andythenorth>big files, slow render and compiles
04:41<V453000>even if I ignore the process
04:41<V453000>it looks shit
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04:41<V453000>zbase is totally out of scope of looking shit
04:41<V453000>but brix is still bad
04:41<@Alberth>o/
04:41<Wolf01>o/
04:41<andythenorth>lo Wolf01
04:41<V453000>yo sound combinator 01
04:42<andythenorth>I have only seen two things that make me consider drawing 32bpp and/or larger
04:42<andythenorth>the chinese trains
04:42<andythenorth>and some others (polish?)
04:42<V453000>yes
04:42<V453000>there is nothing else
04:43<@Alberth>the cause is in the rendering?
04:43<V453000>really want to finish drawin the brix
04:43<V453000>no Alberth
04:43<@Alberth>or in having too much choice?
04:43<andythenorth>this is great https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=70494&hilit=chinese+trains
04:43<andythenorth>it’s chibi
04:43<andythenorth>(the trains, not the other sprites)
04:43<V453000>1. more pixels means it requires SHITLOAD more detail, giant problem comes when details have to look good in x1 zoom, while not looking retarded in x4
04:44<andythenorth>V453000: pure 3D games use poly clipping at different zoom levels
04:44<V453000>2. rendering, even with nearest neighbours and non-antialiased algorithms, will always look blurry, esp compared t o the super vibrant, contrasty and precise well-drawn 8bpp
04:44<andythenorth>for both performance + appearance
04:44<V453000>3. more colours -> you actually need to choose colours carefully, with 8bpp you "just draw" with the palette that you already have given, that's a HUGE helper for consistency
04:45<V453000>that's my top 3 points for 32bpp not working, or being extremely hard to do nicely
04:45<@Alberth>1. I think that was to be expected, to get optimal quality, you'd have to draw each size by hand
04:45<@Alberth>2. algorithms are no match for human intuition and precision
04:46<V453000>4. OpenTTD's scale is in many places absolutely not realistic - chibi for example - so it either looks retarded - super chibi - or you make graphics which don't look like real world trains - slugs
04:46<@Alberth>3. Make a slightly bigger palette?
04:46<andythenorth>V453000: I think the brix trains nailed it tbh
04:46<V453000>yeah but 1. means it takes INSANE amount of time
04:46<andythenorth>and they wouldn’t look right drawn in pixels
04:46<V453000>andythenorth: yes, it is very carefully designed
04:47<V453000>in pixels they wouldn't need such stupid tricks because the illusion works there, just like it always have
04:47<V453000>Alberth a bigger palette is unnecessary, in fact I am considering to try converting 32bpp to 8bpp even in EZ
04:47<andythenorth>this I like https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1123876#p1123876
04:48<V453000>which would answer the "omfg we want moar pixulz on our 8K screen fuck TV on table with computer plugged into it", while keeping great consistency
04:48<andythenorth>but I’m not redrawing everything of mine to 2x zoom :P
04:48<V453000>problem iz need custom converter I will eventually write in snake language
04:48<V453000>yes the polish set is win
04:48<@Alberth>what I mean is perhaps use 512 or 1024 colours or so, rather than 16e6
04:48<andythenorth>this took him 4 days http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/pkpset/repository/entry/gfx/424z-x2.png
04:48<V453000>yeah that looks possible
04:48<V453000>4 days is a lot though
04:49<andythenorth>yes
04:49<V453000>when I consider how many cargoes nuts has
04:49<andythenorth>way much
04:49<andythenorth>even automating the cargos like I have
04:49<andythenorth>it’s way much
04:49<andythenorth>I have kids, I don’t have that time
04:49<V453000>I know that full wagon generation for NUTS took me around 3 weeks
04:49<andythenorth>4x zoom is for 1st year degree students
04:49<V453000>says has kids, dras ships
04:49<andythenorth>nothing to do in 1st year anyway
04:49<V453000>G_G
04:49<V453000>:D
04:49<andythenorth>V453000: automated ships :P
04:49<V453000>haha
04:50<V453000>but yeah, nothing is final but I don't feel very stronk about 32bpp
04:50<andythenorth>V453000: piece goods and refrigerated ships “omg they look so different” http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8317/sam-again.png
04:50<V453000>especially when I see slugs which use like all palette colours
04:51<V453000>nice :)
04:51<andythenorth>global fill 8 colours :P
04:51<andythenorth>and I am teaching PIL to do it for me :P
04:52<@Alberth>working very hard to be lazy :)
04:52<andythenorth>end result = better quality
04:52<andythenorth>I draw one ship really well in false colour
04:52<andythenorth>recolour it to make 3 ships :P
04:52<@Alberth>:D
04:52<andythenorth>fits original game style
04:53<andythenorth>one-third of the sprites are probably copy-paste and recolour
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04:54<@Alberth>that's fine, stats are also lot of re-use, multiplied with some factor
04:55<Wolf01>I was reading the forums... https://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=196271 has this been fixed?
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04:56<V453000>I'm planning to go absolutely batshit with my trains, regarding recolouring andythenorth
04:57<V453000>it's so fast and easy and gives so much variety
04:57<V453000>the rainbow slugs use it a lot, and they look glorious
04:58<V453000>also shit like, draw 1 heap of coal
04:58<V453000>automatically get all 20 hopper cargoes
04:58<V453000>fuck yeah
04:58<andythenorth>Wolf01: looks like no https://github.com/andythenorth/NotRoadTypes/commits/road-and-tram-types
05:00<Wolf01>The BARRB project looks nice, I hope for NRT compatibility
05:01<andythenorth>he won’t be able to do it any other way :)
05:04<V453000>is based on ogfx
05:04<V453000>all I need to know
05:04<V453000>there's no saving
05:05<V453000>I don't want to be hating, but OpenGFX is the death of quality pixel art in openttd
05:05<V453000>because every new set since opengfx is the official shit just draws it "to be compatible"
05:05<V453000>but the fact that the levels and contrast in opengfx is utterly fucked is just under the carpet
05:06*andythenorth has considered fixing it before
05:06<V453000>but then any of us could have improved it at any point, so...
05:06<andythenorth>but the easy fix is installing the proper base set
05:06<V453000>I did road/rail tunnels! :D
05:06<V453000>ye
05:07<@Alberth>having alternatives is always useful
05:07<@Alberth>ie zBase is good only because there is nothing else in 32bpp
05:07<andythenorth>V453000: it’s unappealing to me to spend 1 year drawing a replacement for ogfx :P
05:07<V453000>not when it becomes a standard and new authors start making things based off it
05:07<andythenorth>it won’t be better than original
05:07<V453000>yes andythenorth
05:07<andythenorth>and it will have to be different
05:07<V453000>exactly my point
05:07<andythenorth>for copyright
05:08<V453000>it blows my mind how well the original is drawn
05:08<andythenorth>yup
05:08<V453000>it's literally timeless
05:08<andythenorth>especially comparing lomo is so bad, from same author :P
05:08<V453000>hehe
05:08<andythenorth>snow base set? o_O http://railpictures.net/photo/604622
05:08<V453000>lomo is the RCT styled graphics right
05:09<Wolf01>Ok, that underlay needs fixing graphics
05:09<andythenorth>oh he’s switched to affinity
05:09<andythenorth>interesting, I’m considering that
05:09<andythenorth>https://affinity.serif.com/forum/index.php?/topic/17303-3-tutorials-for-beginners-to-start-out-with/
05:09<andythenorth>drippy cat = simon foster
05:09<V453000>yes
05:10<andythenorth>could just pay him to draw a base set :P
05:10<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYwjdx9FJRA&list=PLlPJ1t1GYo6RfQ63tQ6m1eyxDJiuFg5yo
05:10*andythenorth isn’t rich yet
05:11<V453000>more importantly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5UKKaTGwIqc&t=100s
05:11<V453000>I even replied to that video telling him about my afterFX shit :P
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05:12<@Alberth>lomo used 3d rendering, at least for the vehicles, I think
05:12<V453000>RCT as well
05:12<andythenorth>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Fci7NWYUo
05:12<@Alberth>then it makes sense to keep that style, or it's a mess
05:12<V453000>yes andythenorth
05:12<_maddy>any newgrf to run fast trains (monotrail/maglev) on track that looks like electrified rails? similar to "universal rail"
05:13<V453000>nuts? :)
05:13<_maddy>NUTS doesn't allow that
05:14<V453000>what do you actually want to achieve?
05:14<V453000>just add an universal rail which looks like rail?
05:14<_maddy>yeah
05:16<V453000>there's quite a few universal rail newgrfs which do just that?
05:16<V453000>just search for universal
05:17<_maddy>only two results, "universal rail type" and purr
05:18<V453000>well, universal rail type works?
05:18<_maddy>I am looking for universal rail, but with electrified track
05:18<V453000>oh
05:18<V453000>the catenary
05:18<_maddy>yeah :)
05:18<V453000>uhm, why? :D
05:18<V453000>but yeah I don't know about any such newgrf
05:20<_maddy>just like how it looks, no reason other than that.. more than say monorail or maglev
05:20<andythenorth>oh
05:20<V453000>yeah, railway has it's magic
05:21<V453000>which trains do you want to run on it?
05:21<andythenorth>that’s interesting https://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/32jind/rollercoaster_tycoon_12_artist_simon_foster/#thing_t1_cqe4pn9
05:21<andythenorth>Alberth: ^
05:21*andythenorth was unsure what SF thought about open source clones
05:22<Wolf01>Catenary should be an infrastructure, so you can put it everywhere :E
05:22<Wolf01>Even in bare land... electric bulldozers
05:23<_maddy>V453000: not sure, just something fast.. I normally just use the fastest electric train, NUTS is good for that
05:23<V453000>ha andythenorth
05:23<V453000>well fast is pretty relative _maddy :P
05:23<@Alberth>SF doesn't care, he does graphics, not sales of copies
05:24<_maddy>my point is that I never get to play with monorail or maglev because I don't like how the tracks look :)
05:24<V453000>right
05:24<V453000>what base set are you using?
05:24<V453000>opengfx?
05:24<V453000>zbase?
05:24<V453000>original?
05:24<_maddy>opengfx
05:24<V453000>there's your problem :P
05:25<V453000>please join the worshippers of original grafix
05:25<@Alberth>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=75240 <-- considered those maglev tracks?
05:25<V453000>OR ELSE :>
05:25<V453000>nice, I've never seen that
05:26<V453000>it's shit-compatible with opengfx but generally nice
05:26<V453000>it's not like purr is a masterpiece in how it looks
05:26<V453000>XD
05:26<_maddy>Alberth: yeah I noticed that, it's better than the original
05:26*V453000 has a lot of words but no products
05:26<@Alberth>I'd paint the tracks with something else than grey, at least
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05:27<@Alberth>for some reason people want dull grey as track colour for maglev
05:27<_maddy>clean purr is actually pretty nice... the colorful ones break my eyes
05:27<V453000>just ... don't use the colourful ones then XD
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05:28<_maddy>what is the newgrf for the simplistic/flat looking landscape in latest openttdcoop screenshots?
05:28<@Alberth>yeah, they are a bit bright :)
05:28<V453000>BRIX
05:28<V453000>Lejving is obsessing with posting screens with it everywhere
05:28<V453000>although it's shit XD
05:29<@Alberth>V: you kmow the love/hate relation ship of andy with his sets, right?
05:30<@Alberth>V: compare with zbase, not with hand-drawn graphics :p
05:30<@Alberth>no way you ever going to win with algorithms then
05:30<V453000>track colours = win https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8338/psg-324-HELL.png
05:31<V453000>yes
05:31<V453000>is why I'm going hardcore nerd mode with my wacom over it Alberth
05:31<V453000>I'm not completely redrawing the things, just trying to see how much enhancement do I need to get a good result
05:32<V453000>it's certainly possible to render a nice 3D thing, but it's more work than doing it by hand
05:32<@Alberth>yeah, "working hard to be lazy" isn't actually any shorter :)
05:32<@Alberth>at least not for first-time things
05:33<V453000>kind of
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05:35*andythenorth automates the stuff that can be automated
05:35<andythenorth>like copy-paste nonsense
05:36<V453000>if I ever stop talking shit and actually start working on it, my next train set will be automation heaven
05:36<V453000>andythenorth will drool
05:36<andythenorth>won’t it
05:36<V453000>compile times might be unoptimized
05:36<V453000>G_G
05:36<andythenorth>1 wagon with 20 cargos = 320 copy-paste
05:36<andythenorth>that’s the crap to automate
05:37<V453000>yes
05:37*V453000 is going to be brave and generate code by snake as well
05:37<andythenorth>1 mistake in positioning = 1 tedious bug report 7 months later :P
05:38<andythenorth>low quality
05:38<V453000>can
05:38<V453000>can't happen to m1
05:38<V453000>me
05:38<V453000>! XD
05:38<V453000>nvm
05:38<V453000>joke ran away after 3 types
05:38<V453000>typos EVEN
05:38<Wolf01>How did you manage to press 1 instead of e?
05:38<V453000>I go back to blender
05:38<V453000>idk Wolf01
05:39<V453000>music melting my brain
05:39<Wolf01>:D
05:39<Wolf01>I can't listen to songs while writing :(
05:39<andythenorth>automate typing
05:39<Wolf01>I need to listen to classic music only
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05:41<V453000>yeah the thing I have here isn't exactly classic
05:41<V453000>melts brains
05:41<Wolf01>Tool?
05:42<andythenorth>https://itunes.apple.com/gb/album/euphoric-trance-essentials/id1067052301
05:42<andythenorth>:P
05:44<V453000>https://shokranband.bandcamp.com/album/exodus
05:47<Wolf01>I'm more heavy/power/epic metal, hard rock and classic music :P
05:47<Wolf01>Mmmmh, I should open "some" lego boxes... exactly 12
05:48<Wolf01>Before I forget that again
05:51<V453000>12?!
05:51<V453000>sounds like andy
05:51<V453000> /s
05:55<Wolf01>https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgUFeOGLNNfVhsxZODQIhfKrXUJeQg <- the box contains 10 of those
05:55<Wolf01>They didn't even wasted time to open it
05:56<V453000>nice
05:57<Wolf01>Since last time I purchased only 8 and I found that I needed more, this time I purchased directly 12 :P
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05:58<Wolf01>Oh, wonderful, it's only one plastic bag, I could try to build it without open it
05:58<V453000>XD XD
05:58<V453000>found that I needed more
05:58<V453000>XD XD
05:58<V453000>one does not simply play one factorio
05:59<_maddy>is factorio good game? how does it compare to openttd?
06:03<V453000>it's a great game, it's similar in some of the building-some-logistic-stuff-on-a-tile-grid-kind-of-puzzle
06:03<V453000>in openttd, trains are super nice and have super high potential for complexity, but the other transportation types are dumb as bricks
06:04<V453000>in factorio, none of them is so extremely complex as openttd trains can get, but all of them are interesting
06:05<V453000>and combining them together can also get pretty fucked up :)
06:06<_maddy>yeah, it looks pretty nice, will probably buy it at some point in the future
06:06<V453000>https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8336/MESSBASE.png
06:06<V453000>my belt hive
06:11<@Alberth>factorio, coop-style :)
06:13<V453000>admittedly, nobody really builds this way. Vast majority of people prefer to keep their factories super clean
06:14<V453000>but it doesn't result in the absolute visual mayhem ._.
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06:17<Wolf01><V453000> it's a great game <- asking the innkeeper if the wine is good
06:18<@Alberth>:)
06:24<V453000>there are innkeepers who lie and who don't :P
06:24<V453000>also there are innkeepers who are alcoholics
06:24<V453000>tun tun tun
06:29<Wolf01>Uhm, now the tricky step... connect the 3 main pieces of the locomotive...
06:32<Wolf01>Done!
06:32<Wolf01>30 minutes, nice time
06:33<Wolf01>Less than the last time when I tried to build it by guessing the instructions
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06:35<Wolf01>https://1drv.ms/i/s!AgUFeOGLNNfVhsxbDmAKPC4MdGBYdA :D
06:36<V453000>isn't that cheating
06:36<Wolf01>How could be that cheating?
06:36<V453000>aren't you supposed to build it form tiny bits? :D
06:37<V453000>is this how it arrived?
06:37<Wolf01>Ahahaha no, it arrived in pieces :D
06:37<V453000>ah ok
06:37<V453000>but why is it in the plastic bag then ._.
06:38<Wolf01><Wolf01> Oh, wonderful, it's only one plastic bag, I could try to build it without open it <-
06:38<V453000>OH
06:38<V453000>omfg nerd
06:39<V453000>nice. :)
06:39<@Alberth>less lost tiny bits :p
06:39<V453000>but yeah you're cheating because you avoided the danger of getting some pieces lost all over the room XD
06:39<V453000>yes
06:39<Wolf01>Ahaahh build while paused like... not a cheat anymore
06:39<Wolf01>XD
06:40<@Alberth>:)
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06:42<Wolf01>Quak
06:42<V453000>all hail frog
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06:42<frosch123>moi
06:43<Wolf01>Hall hail the hypnotoad
06:43<Wolf01>*ahh
06:43<Wolf01>*all
06:43<Wolf01>Banana fingers
06:44<Wolf01>And "h-l" is one key far away than "1-e" XD
06:45<@Alberth>hola
06:46<V453000>haha
06:47<V453000>I not so retard yet
06:47<V453000>Wolf01 1 key moar
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06:48<Lejving>Ffs V453000 Im just spreading the V legacy!!! :(
06:48<V453000>wot
06:49<V453000>u pregnant?
06:49<Wolf01>Ahaha
06:49<Lejving>yes
06:49<Lejving>and brix screenshots
06:49<V453000>haha
06:49<Lejving>:)
06:49<V453000>yeah pregnant individuals seem to shit brix
06:50<V453000>trust me
06:50<V453000>anyway slave what are you doing in this channel, get back to expanding the slug hive
06:51<Lejving>yes mi lord
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07:06<frosch123>Wolf01: building stuff inside the bag is awesome :)
07:06<Wolf01>:D
07:06<@Alberth>no dust at your precious models!
07:07<Wolf01>Too bad that those which are taking dust were split in different plastic bags :P
07:08<V453000>write it as a special shipping requirement
07:08<@Alberth>:)
07:09<Wolf01>I wonder how I could be able to build the bucket wheel excavator in a single bag... also it needs batteries XD
07:10<Wolf01>3929 parts... it would be really tricky
07:10<Wolf01>Lunch time
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07:18<V453000>order one on solar powering instead of batteries
07:20*andythenorth destroyed lego
07:20<andythenorth>too much power
07:21<andythenorth>V453000: new arctic base set? http://railpictures.net/photo/604622
07:21<andythenorth>just white
07:21<V453000>n
07:21<V453000>brix haz grene grass noaw
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07:22<_maddy>is brix downloadable from anywhere?
07:23<V453000>not officially
07:23<V453000>it's not ready for 0.0.1 yet
07:23<V453000>the style will change a lot
07:23<_maddy>here? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/brix/files
07:24<V453000>yeah, no
07:24<Wolf01>has andythenorth seen my last achievement?
07:25<andythenorth>boil in the bag?
07:25<Wolf01>Yup
07:26<Wolf01>I should build the other 2 and link the bags together
07:26<Wolf01>But I won't do that :P
07:26<_maddy>V453000: unofficially?
07:28<V453000>I have a file I have shared with a few people
07:28<V453000>but it's not available anywhere
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07:29<_maddy>oh, very exclusive
07:29<_maddy>I'll wait fhr the 0.0.1
07:29<V453000>the first impression matters a lot
07:29<V453000>at least it needs to have a defined style which isn't going to change completely
07:29<V453000>and after longer playing it currently isn't great
07:30<V453000>nice band name https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDUACxeoVAg
07:33<frosch123>Wolf01: https://wiki.openttd.org/?title=Frosch%2FNotRoadTypes&diff=90115&oldid=90109 <- extended the todo list
07:34<Wolf01>I tried it this morning, it works but only with new sprites, basesets have the terrain and road all in one sprite so it overwrites the other one
07:34<frosch123>exactly :)
07:36<Wolf01>But I think it would be possible to keep both behaviors by removing the else part and switching positions for road and tram underlays
07:37<Wolf01>*removing else part and replacing it with tram_rti != NULL
07:38<frosch123>well, we need baseset sprites
07:38<frosch123>anyway, i am more in the mood to finishing a first version, than to extend the roadmap :p
07:38<Wolf01>+1
07:40<Wolf01>Could I suggest to change the "titles" of the todo items to h3? Or it would clutter too much the nav menu?
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07:43<frosch123>list got too long? :p
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07:43<Wolf01>Nah
07:44<Wolf01>http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Pikachu_(Pok%C3%A9mon) <- look at this one
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07:47<andythenorth>how long should a 128px ship be in \ / views
07:47<andythenorth>:P
07:48<andythenorth>nvm
07:49<V453000>yes
07:49<frosch123>https://wiki.openttd.org/Frosch/NotRoadTypes#ToDo_list <- Wolf01: better?
07:50<Wolf01>Yes, easy to spot the todo item body :P
07:50<frosch123>i never understood the header font sizes
07:50<frosch123>h2 always looks smaller than h3
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07:51<Wolf01>Wiki css is ugly
07:51<V453000>453000 looks bigger than anything else
07:51<V453000>gg
07:57<V453000>maybe the answer to brix is to make everything actually slugs
07:57<V453000>trees
07:57<V453000>industries
07:57<V453000>bridges
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07:58<V453000>is cat?
08:02<Wolf01>I wonder if you already hid a slug somewhere in factorio
08:04<V453000>I wanted to
08:04<V453000>but eh
08:05<V453000>plan B was replace all biter graphics with slugs
08:05<V453000>slugtorio
08:05<Wolf01>Reduce their speed too, make them spawn more, dramatic wave of slugs coming to eat you alive
08:07<Wolf01>You should really make a mod
08:08<Wolf01>11/10 I would use it
08:08<Wolf01>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9rzVQPnvHI <- totally
08:08<Wolf01>But with slugs XD
08:18<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pefl5urrc <- Alberth: would you agree to that?
08:18<frosch123>or do have a different opinion/idea?
08:19<frosch123>Wolf01: ever wondered what is under the helmet of the factorio character?
08:21<Wolf01>Could be V for what I can guess, usually if I can't make a character I don't really bother of his aspect... but the model reminds me a lot Kovac from How to Survive
08:22<V453000>haha
08:22<V453000>iz secretly slug
08:23<Wolf01>That's why you have to put exoskeleton to make it run fast?
08:23<V453000>yeah or put lube barrel in inventory
08:23<frosch123>i would believe that :)
08:25<@Alberth>frosch123: I have no problems with declarative syntax like line 33 (identifier = ...), but fair enough. Making it consistent like you propose would be good, imho
08:25<@Alberth>perhaps add () for those definitions that don't have it yet?
08:25<frosch123>empty () looks weird
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08:26<@Alberth>yeah, fair enough
08:26<frosch123>class derived():
08:26<frosch123>you don't write that
08:27<@Alberth>I might, but I am doing too many weird languages :p
08:28<frosch123>i try to take python as guide :)
08:28<@Alberth>makes sense, quite known language, and well designed
08:29<@Alberth>we'd need to drop the { and } too then :p
08:29<@Alberth>I often do header : .... end
08:30<@Alberth>of course that breaks all nml code :p
08:30<@Alberth>{ } works too :)
08:33<@Alberth>also, I have been pondering how to save/load std::string, it seems there are 2 options. 1) Make a special case for the struct that has them (assuming that's possible), or 2) Introduce 'native' std::string support in save/load code. The latter looks like adding a SLE_VAR_STDSTR or so. at first sight
08:33<@Alberth>under the assumption this is not going to be the last std::string to save, the latter may be the better solution
08:34<frosch123>what do you want to save? grffilename?
08:37<frosch123>anyway, i believe we already have SLE_ stuf for char* and char[], so adding std::string as third should be fine
08:37<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pckrx0ldj
08:37<@Alberth>and there is another Grf class GrfFile or so, iirc
08:38<frosch123>is the "stringquote" stuff actually used? i cannot find anything
08:38<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/p02mxsejk
08:39<@Alberth>in settings, I think
08:39<frosch123>oh, indeed
08:40<frosch123>so STR and STRQ is not about savegames, but about ini files :)
08:40<@Alberth>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/ptjiywpdx
08:40<@Alberth>but I agree it's weird
08:41<frosch123>yeah, in saveload both are treated the same, just the iniwriter in settings.cpp makes a difference
08:42<frosch123> /* 1 more possible memory-primitives */ <- more weird limitations :p
08:42<@Alberth>yep :p
08:43<@Alberth>related to the 4bit var and 4bit file format stored in 1 byte
08:50<Lejving>I demand a hell newgrf with stations+objects
08:50<Lejving>someone get o nit
08:52<@Alberth>GarryG has lots of objects :)
08:55<Lejving>sounds like a G dude
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08:58<torsan>Hello. How to install openttd on ubuntu 16.04? Will package for 14.04 work?
08:59<frosch123>the generic package will work
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09:00<torsan>thanks, I'll try
09:06<torsan>it works :)
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09:27<andythenorth>the nice thing about nml syntax
09:28<andythenorth>is that mostly you don’t need it to write nml :P
09:28<andythenorth>if I was a better programmer I’d skip the parser modul
09:28<andythenorth>import nml modules
09:29<andythenorth>and generate the tree directly
09:31<Markk>Aaah, I've really missed OpenTTD. Because of some computer issues I wasn't able to play anything for the last year, but now it's fixed and I've really catched up!
09:31<Markk>Started a new save for 5 days ago, and every evening I've played and made this progress: http://imgur.com/a/m67wj
09:32<Markk>:D
09:32<andythenorth>no FIRS :P
09:32<andythenorth>“All must FIRS"
09:32<andythenorth>:P
09:33<Markk>Nope
09:33<Markk>Just stock
09:33<Markk>I've had some other trains and airplanes before, but now it's just stock.
09:34<Markk>Mosly because it's what I'm used to. First 4-5 years or so I wasn't really aware of the NewGRF stuff.
09:35<Markk>And now I kinda prefer the stock grf :)
09:35<andythenorth>fair
09:35<Markk>I'm more for building nice looking tracks and station layouts then caring so much about what I'm transporting.
09:36<Markk>My OCD likes when tracks both look nice and are efficient.
09:38<andythenorth>my OCD won’t talk to me anymore, I’m too untidy
09:38<Markk>:>
09:39<Markk>You'll have to kiss and make up.
09:39<Markk>See if it still likes you or just want a divorce.
09:39<Markk>I would love to get an divorce from my OCD.
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09:49<@Alberth>Could try opengfx+ looks like stock, with some nice extras
09:51<Lejving>brix
09:53<@Alberth>http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/chimneys.png I just love the random things that happen if the game fails to find the right FIRS version :)
09:53<andythenorth>that’s quite effective
09:53<andythenorth>I should make an industry like that
09:53<andythenorth>usually it’s mine winding wheels
09:54<@Alberth>I have those too, I think, but they're too common
09:55<@Alberth>haha, steel factory from alcohol to fish :p
09:57<Markk>Alberth: hm, that looks quite nice, I don't mean the graphics, just the idea of a bit more advanced goods handling and transporting.
09:58<Markk>Alberth: I'll have to look into firs a bit more :)
09:58<andythenorth>FIRS has basic economies
09:58<andythenorth>but it’s quite a change from default gameplay
09:58<Markk>I can imagine
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10:00<supermop>yo
10:01<andythenorth>lo supermop
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10:12<@Alberth>make sure you start with the basic economies, it avoids getting very much lost
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10:17<andythenorth>ach that reminds me
10:17<andythenorth>I have to test Arctic Basic again
10:17*andythenorth added pulpwood
10:17<andythenorth>Markk: http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/firs/releases/LATEST/docs/html/economies.html
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10:24<Markk>andythenorth: Ah, danke schön, mate!
10:25<andythenorth>Temperate Basic is the most approachable
10:25<Wolf01>http://www.amusingplanet.com/2013/08/gisborne-airport-runway-with-railway.html :o
10:25<andythenorth>Arctic Basic is a bit weird and has been reworked, but not released yet
10:25<andythenorth>Tropic Basic is fine, but mostly food
10:26<Markk>Mkay
10:26<andythenorth>ach you have to have vehicle grfs as well though :P
10:26*andythenorth forgot that
10:26<Markk>I prefer temperate overall
10:27<V453000>Alberth: nice chimneys XD
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10:35<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8339/8-ships-such.png
10:35<@Alberth>merry go-around :)
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10:36<andythenorth>testing :P
10:36<andythenorth>those ships are 2 tiles long
10:36<andythenorth>\ / look super short compared to FISH / Squid, but probably better
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10:39<V453000>I like it andythenorth
10:39<supermop>fun boats
10:39<V453000>oh it's meant to be the same sprite XD
10:39<V453000>why don't you make --- shorter?
10:39<V453000>maybe als o|
10:39<andythenorth>dunno
10:39<V453000>the amount of stripes doesn't need to match, y know :D
10:40<andythenorth>it fits the sprite lengths in base set afaict
10:40<andythenorth>seems to be a straight 2:1
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10:40<andythenorth>“the projection is not accurate"
10:44<supermop>at some point, you must abandon foster as your god, andy
10:44<andythenorth>and recode the vehicle lengths? o_O
10:45<supermop>hmm I already feel like I need a third monitor
10:45<supermop>rhino, grasshopper, grasshopper documentation, irc, ...out of space
10:48<Wolf01>40" 4K monitor and keep everything there
10:49<V453000>no he would just have rhino on fullscreen and masturbate about the line crispiness :D
10:49<supermop>probably
10:49<supermop>except I would have irc on the full screen
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11:02<@Alberth>that's why I switched to virtual desktops 20 years ago :)
11:03<@Alberth>never running out of empty desktop :)
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11:47<Wolf01>Mmmh, the new mini creator sets are really nice with the modularity
11:47<Wolf01>I already made 2 different boilers for the same cab
11:48<Wolf01>And it's easy to swap them
11:51<V453000>and how many steam engines?
11:51<V453000>G_G
11:54<Wolf01>Made a tender now
11:54<Wolf01>Let's see what happens if I split the tender and a pax car and mix them
11:55<Wolf01>Ahah ugly as fuck
11:58<Wolf01>https://i.ytimg.com/vi/vJKZx-ACw1g/sddefault.jpg <- you can build something like this
11:59<Wolf01>I had a set of toys exactly like this
12:23<Wolf01>Also not sure to place 65€ of pick-a-brick :/ Mainly tiles and other small parts to continue my microscale city
12:49*andythenorth thinks save it
12:50<Wolf01>The parts must come in a way or another
12:50<Wolf01>I need them to finish the diorama
12:54<supermop>Wolf01 here is a microscale city for you:
12:54<supermop>http://imgur.com/a/WLisk
12:54<supermop>messing about making parametric metabolist things
12:54<Wolf01>Not same style :P
12:55<supermop>with enough more parameters I could make a parametric lego city I guess
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12:58<Wolf01>I'm into something like this http://www.rolug.ro/2016/08/microscale-city-contest-creation-12-waterfront-city
12:58<Wolf01>Also andythenorth, forum pm
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15:23<andythenorth>:o
15:23<andythenorth>the default base set ships are more messed up than most sprites
15:23<andythenorth>they are longer in / \ views than – :P
15:25<V453000>XD
15:25<V453000>discovery
15:25<V453000>go sue SF
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15:31<andythenorth>:P
15:31<supermop_>very flat too
15:31<supermop_>to fit under bridges?
15:31<andythenorth>the change of length from \ to – might just be too disjointed??
15:31<andythenorth>http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8339/8-ships-such.png
15:31<andythenorth>it’s what trains and RVs do
15:32<supermop_>use the CETS code for gradual ship turns?
15:35<andythenorth>8 more angles to draw :o
15:36<supermop_>train a computer to do for you
15:39<andythenorth>AI + generative algorithm
15:40<andythenorth>I just pick the best of 10
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17:08<__ln__>can an executive order be anything?
17:12<Eddi|zuHause>it can't be anything that interferes with the rights of congress or the states
17:13<__ln__>interfering with the constitution doesn't seem to be a big issue
17:13<Eddi|zuHause>but what an executive order can be was continuously expanded over the last, say, 80 years
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17:29<supermop_>__ln__: it is essentially just a memo
17:30<supermop_>so can be on or about anything but may or may not have any real effect, and may or may not be enforceable or constitutional
17:31<supermop_>the muslim ban was effectively a memo saying "this people should not be allowed in" it does not change any law, but because it pertains to agencies that are under the executive branch
17:31<supermop_>it essentially then instructs the officers of those agencies to act according to the direction of the order
17:32<__ln__>nice
17:33<supermop_>the courts can, will, and have found that the action prescribed by the order cannot be executed in a lawful or constitutional manner
17:34<supermop_>however an officer under direction of the order could choose to ignore the court
17:34<supermop_>which is different than appealing the court decision
17:35<supermop_>by ignoring the court that officer is acting unlawfully,
17:36<supermop_>and can be found to be in contempt and indicted
17:37<supermop_>the executive should then remove that officer and comply with the court ruling pending appeal
17:38<supermop_>and federal police should arrest them
17:39<__ln__>the whole muslim ban probably puts officers in an awkward position to say the least
17:39<supermop_>however, the executive could ignore the court, and instruct agencies to not arrest
17:39<supermop_>at which point the supreme court should issue an injunction
17:40<supermop_>'failing that, congress much impeach an executive acting unlawfully
17:41<supermop_>current congress seems unwilling to impeach (barring one theory), and likely will also ignore supreme court
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17:42<supermop_>(theory being that Mitch McConnell are goading Trump into acting unconstitutionally, so that at a time convenient to them they can impeach to put Pence or Ryan in charge, who are more aligned with Congressional Republicans)
17:48<Eddi|zuHause><__ln__> the whole muslim ban probably puts officers in an awkward position to say the least <-- this can't possibly be in accordance with the "freedom of religion" part of the constitution
17:49<__ln__>if there was an executive order to reintroduce segregation of races in public transport, would that be ok?
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17:50<Eddi|zuHause>it would violate about any current supreme court ruling
17:56<__ln__>at this point it looks pretty probable that Trump won't stay in office for the whole 4 years
18:02<supermop_>__ln__: i hope he is impeached, but at present it is still difficult to envision it being 'probable' in the near term, even though there is grounds
18:03<supermop_>i think the congressional democrats wont bring a symbolic impeachment yet when it is still so unlikely they will have enough votes to suceed
18:03<Eddi|zuHause>how many presidents have actually been impeached?
18:03<supermop_>2
18:03<supermop_>neither impeachment resulted in a vote to remove from office
18:04<supermop_>2.5 if you count nixon, but he resigned before the proceedings started
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18:09<Eddi|zuHause>this is a fun map http://katapult-magazin.de/uploads/tx_news/Trump_s_Einreiseverbot_verschont_Laender__in_denen-01.png
18:09<Eddi|zuHause>(countries affected by the ban vs. countries where the trump organization has buildings or golf clubs
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18:10<Eddi|zuHause>(also: countries where 9/11 hijackers came from http://imgur.com/gallery/jxPlC)
18:11<+glx>and other attackers ;)
18:13<Eddi|zuHause>glx: so what about your brand new socialist candidate who has no chances whatsoever?
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18:14<+glx>for me it's better than the other candidate
18:15<+glx>valls couldn't win in april anyway
18:16<Eddi|zuHause>well, he sounds a bit like bernie sanders
18:16<__ln__>too bad openttd doesn't have the concept of international flights
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18:17<Eddi|zuHause>well, it does have an international airport :
18:17<__ln__>misleading advertising
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>it does, however, not have the concept of nations
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>or countries
18:18<Eddi|zuHause>or whatever
18:18<+glx>you could consider towns as coutries
18:19<__ln__>that too is major limitation
18:19<__ln__>+ a
18:20<+glx>I guess gamescript can do something to simulate countries by grouping towns
18:20<Eddi|zuHause>i tried to make something like that once
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18:20<__ln__>also there isn't even an option to build city walls (like in civilization), let alone bigger walls.
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>we definitely need city walls in this game.
18:22<Eddi|zuHause>things that always get in the way of growing cities
18:22<__ln__>absolutely
18:23<Eddi|zuHause>but that you can't remove because it will upset all the wrong people
18:25<__ln__>fortunately barbarian attacks to cities are very infrequent in openttd
18:27<Eddi|zuHause>maybe they would be more frequent if you could start in 4000 BC(E)
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18:29<Eddi|zuHause>every time we talk about civilization i want to start a game, and that always ends in exactly the same result, somewhere halfway through somebody declares war and i'm absolutely not prepared
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19:07<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: did i already ask, if you are playing civ 6? or older?
19:07<Eddi|zuHause>i don't have civ 6 yet.
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>either civ 4 or 5
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>i think last time i tried civ 4
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>way back i played looooots of civ 2
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>and a little less civ 1
19:08<Eddi|zuHause>that was totally buggy after i patched my german version with an english patch
19:09<Eddi|zuHause>and i didn't have a backup
19:11<supermop_>only played civ 1 a couple times at a neighbors house
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19:30<Wolf01>I'll go play dead
19:30<Wolf01>'night
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20:19<supermop_>in civ 4 or 5, forget which, i got too preoccupied with the unit promotions
20:20<supermop_>to the point where i would refrain from building any units outside of the cities with the most promotion improvements
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20:46<Eddi|zuHause>in Civ4 you just have your 4-5 generals, and a bunch of throwaway units
20:47<Eddi|zuHause>in Civ5 you have the super crazy promotions for all units
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---Logclosed Mon Jan 30 00:00:23 2017