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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-02

---Logopened Thu Feb 02 00:00:27 2017
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03:50<dihedral>good morning
04:05<crem>indeed, pretty neblig though.
04:05<crem>ah, confusing languages :-\
04:05<crem>fohhy
04:05<crem>foggy
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04:28<Wolf01>o/
04:33<crem>\o
04:42<dihedral>hello Wolf01
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09:36<supermop_>yo
09:50<supermop_>orudge: is there a non PP way to donate?
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10:05<@Rubidium>supermop__: have you checked the donations page?
10:05<supermop__>it just lists paypal links
10:07<@peter1138>Just below them...
10:08<Wolf01>It says to contact Owen...
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10:10<__ln__>are we looking at the same page?
10:10<Wolf01>https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9941
10:11<supermop__>hmm
10:11<__ln__>preceisely that one
10:11<__ln__>"Last edited by orudge on Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:05 pm"
10:12<__ln__>makes me wonder if the post is still 100% relevant after 11 years
10:19<dihedral>there was no Owen to update the page
10:19<Wolf01>Or it's still relevant
10:20<dihedral>inconcievable
10:21<__ln__>€150/month for hosting a forum sounds like a lot in 2017
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10:45<Wolf01>http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ad7NLvZ_460s.jpg LMAO
10:46<Wolf01>We used the wrong cry all the time
10:46<__ln__>how do frogs from different origins understand each other
10:47<Wolf01>Maybe they don't
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11:09<Wolf01>o/
11:09<@Alberth>moin
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12:03<li_the_elfin>hi all
12:03<li_the_elfin>is there any admin for a sugestion ? :o
12:04<Wolf01>Just say it here
12:06<li_the_elfin>is it posssible to set ott available in GOG game website so people can download it from there ?
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12:06<li_the_elfin>I sent a email to gog and asked them if they could contact you because I am ahuge fan of ott
12:07<li_the_elfin>and they said that becauise of legal reason it was not possible
12:07<Eddi|zuHause>so why do you ask, if you know the answer?
12:07<li_the_elfin>gog has several old games that are for free so that they would add ott in their list would be great for the community in my opinion
12:07<li_the_elfin>well legal means from your side
12:08<supermop_>you can already download Openttd for free from openttd.org
12:08<li_the_elfin>I am sure the meaning of ott is to reach as much fans as possible
12:08<Eddi|zuHause>yes, but we cannot solve the legal status of the openttd license
12:08<li_the_elfin>:o
12:08<li_the_elfin>i see
12:08<li_the_elfin>but ott is drm free I guess ?
12:09<supermop_>the meaning of OpenTTD is to create the best* possible open source clone of TTD
12:09<supermop_>it is licensed GPL
12:09<Eddi|zuHause>the problem is, that the company who sold the original TTD, microprose, was bought off by atari, and despite several attempts, atari has not come forward whether they actually own the rights to TTD or whether they could release them to us
12:10<li_the_elfin>I see
12:10<Eddi|zuHause>and because the first version of openttd was created from a reverse engineered version of TTD, the openttd license is "tainted" by the original copyright of TTD.
12:10<li_the_elfin>got it
12:10<supermop_>so any person may distribute it, but as Eddi says, some distributors may not want to distribute a gpl game that may or may not count as fair use
12:10<li_the_elfin>so if atary would release their rights it would be solved from your point of view ?
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>the person who did this reverse engineering claims it was legal according to the law in his country
12:11<Eddi|zuHause>but as long as no side goes to court, that claim cannot be verified
12:11<li_the_elfin>laws are like mazes they all have a way to get trought :p
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12:11<supermop_>we do not have the $$ to hire a team of intellectual property lawyers to argue or explore this
12:12<li_the_elfin>i can understand that
12:12<li_the_elfin>it is weird because gog has games of microprose like master of magic
12:12<Eddi|zuHause>there could be the case that they have given up their rights because they did not pursue them, but again, no court, no ruling
12:12<supermop_>my sister in law is an IP lawyer, but even if she and her partner worked for free for a year, all issues may not be resolved
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12:13<li_the_elfin>yeah because then you have to check for each country thats a hell of a work
12:13<Eddi|zuHause>and if there ever was a court case, chances are the project will just be stopped
12:13<li_the_elfin>that would be sad
12:14<supermop_>generally, the status quo right now, with OpenTTD having a smaller community, is that Atari and OpenTTD are both content to leave the issue alone
12:14<Eddi|zuHause>nobody here would have the endurance or money to work through a court case
12:14<li_the_elfin>i think rhe danger would be bigger if for example steam buy the rights and set it in court
12:15<supermop_>but if OpenTTD tried to sue for right to distribute, Atari would be compelled to fight so as not to set precedent
12:15<li_the_elfin>but what I have seen is that when a group chnage of owner it sometimes make things change an example lucasart since it is from disney well all their games are in gog now
12:16<Eddi|zuHause>so? even if TTD was on GOG, this would not change anything wrt legality of openttd
12:16<supermop_>li_the_elfin: Atari can put original TTO or TTD on GOG or Steam if they want
12:17<@Alberth>it's horrible if you know openttd :p
12:17<supermop_>and if they decide to do so, whether or not they want to, they will have to then sue OpenTTD to protect their license
12:17<li_the_elfin>gog is drm free so they would never sue anyone
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12:18<Eddi|zuHause>how are those two things related?
12:18<supermop_>li_the_elfin: at this point it becomes less about the code/binary, and instead about the brand
12:18<li_the_elfin>they are not related gog and sream they are in fact contrary
12:18<supermop_>li_the_elfin: what is your favorite music/band?
12:19<li_the_elfin>no typical favourit why ?
12:19<supermop_>if you are a big fan, maybe you want to make a t shirt with their name on it
12:20<supermop_>and maybe you make some extras to give for free to your friends
12:20<li_the_elfin>lol
12:20<supermop_>the band is happy to have good fans who wear t shirts
12:20<supermop_>and you did not steal any of their music - so all good right?
12:21<li_the_elfin>thats true
12:21<supermop_>but the band also sells official t shirts at concerts, and maybe they give them away for free to the fans in the crowd
12:21<li_the_elfin>informing is also a way to make aware
12:21<supermop_>they want to be able to do that
12:22<supermop_>but what if a big company the band hates starts to make and sell the tshirts without permission
12:23<li_the_elfin>well depends what is the goal of the band
12:23<supermop_>legally, because the band allowed you to make unauthorized tshirts, they set precedent (or abandoned their rights)
12:23<li_the_elfin>if it is to make themselves famous they would be thankfull
12:24<supermop_>so they have to sue you to enforce their ownership of their name, etc
12:24<supermop_>even if they like you
12:25<supermop_>if you make just a few shirts quietly, they can say no big deal, it doesn't set precedent, but if you give away 1000 they have to respond
12:25<li_the_elfin>but what is the goal of ott ? is it to spread the game for free to as many fans possible ?
12:25<Eddi|zuHause>that's a weird oddity in american brand laws, that you have to pursue every tiny violation, or lose the brand rights altogether
12:26<Eddi|zuHause>li_the_elfin: no, that was never "the goal". the goal was to improve the game. spreading is just on the side
12:27<li_the_elfin>I see
12:27<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: well there is nuance at the margins, currently Atari certainly is aware of OpenTTD but has judged it not worth legal action at this time
12:27<supermop_>if the game were on steam or GOG or sold for $ they would certainly sue
12:27<li_the_elfin>but if it would grow exponantially they would consider ? you think ?
12:28<supermop_>at some point atari may want to sell their own improved TTD on steam
12:28<li_the_elfin>yeah I also think they don't take any action because the game is for free now and it is helped by a lot of fans
12:28<Eddi|zuHause>li_the_elfin: they will probably reconsider if they think we measurably cut into their profits
12:28<supermop_>or, because OpenTTD is free and open source, a competitor can fork OpenTTD and sell it to compete with Atari
12:28<li_the_elfin>so in your opinion I should contact atary ?
12:29<supermop_>li_the_elfin: in my opinion you should not contact them, as it will just make them feel uneasy about the current legal situation
12:30<li_the_elfin>: /
12:30<supermop_>if you say, there are 100,000 OpenTTD players, and on GOG we can reach 1 million more, they will certainly feel they need to sue
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>li_the_elfin: plenty of people contacted atari
12:30<Eddi|zuHause>li_the_elfin: it always ends the same way, you will never hear back from them
12:31<li_the_elfin>gog would reach more then 20 million users
12:31<Eddi|zuHause>li_the_elfin: likely there's a corporate order to not say anything, because that would almost certainly weaken the case if they ever wanted to sue in the future
12:31<li_the_elfin>so for the sake of ott now I should just beter not spoil the fun : p
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, yeah.
12:32<supermop_>Atari probably want to look nice to gamers and developers, and the only way they can legally be nice to us is by covering their eyes and pretending they cannot see us
12:32<Eddi|zuHause>just accept that there is nothing you can do to get the game on gog
12:32<li_the_elfin>I will follow your advice then : ) I am thankfull for the chat and I want to thank you for the great work you did until now and the fun I had with playing ott : )
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12:33<@Alberth>oh, if you have a 20,000,000,000 euro lying around, you could probably buy the brand :)
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12:33<@Alberth>hopefully it's enough
12:33<li_the_elfin>I think you can buy arari for lesser
12:34<@Alberth>that would work too :p
12:34<li_the_elfin>lol :p
12:34<supermop_>Alberth: buying atari is almost certainly cheaper than fighting them in court for the rights
12:34<@Alberth>although tbh I would not be surprised if they cannot provide any documentation that they own ttd
12:34<li_the_elfin>thats maybe why they are so silent toward all these emails
12:34<@Alberth>but I don't want to find out
12:35<li_the_elfin>who knows maybe it was a fan of ott who took them with him or her when he or she was fired :p
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>well, they weren't silent in the beginning, we did have answers along the lines of "let me investigate this"
12:35<supermop_>but then once you own atari you cannot give away OpenTTD for free without putting your employees at risk
12:35<Eddi|zuHause>just that was the last thing we ever heard from them
12:36<@Alberth>so they are still searching :p
12:36<@Rubidium>a port of OpenTTD is on Google Play Store (or whatever its name is now) with a mere 1-5 million downloads. I'd reckon gog being smaller, so... why haven't they sued yet?
12:36<supermop_>Atari is more that just 1 person, it is shareholders, programmers, lawyers, marketers, probably most don't care about the TTD brand at all, but they dont want to set a precedent that would affect other brands
12:37<supermop_>Rubidium: google play has the veneer of just distributing the apps of independent developers? i thought GOG actually had some kind of licensing agreement
12:38<li_the_elfin>they have some rules but they mean not much lol the eula rules lol
12:39<supermop_>if you go to atari.com today it is almost entirely publicity for roller coaster tycoon, which is for sale
12:39<li_the_elfin>well rollercoatser is in gog lol
12:39<supermop_>i am sure giving up the rights to OpenTTD would make it harder for them to protect their ownership of RCT
12:40<@Alberth>hmm, didn't CS buy the tycoon rights for his mobile game?
12:41<supermop_>for locomotion and the TT name i think
12:42<li_the_elfin>but is locomotion not the official folow up of ttd
12:42<Eddi|zuHause>but the inofficial one
12:42<@Alberth>no, it's branded as TT
12:42<li_the_elfin>altought it looks more as rollercoaster
12:43<supermop_>legally a locomotion port is now transport tycoon on mobile
12:43<@Alberth>even though it uses lomo graphics
12:43<supermop_>CS owned locomotion but not the TT brand
12:43<Eddi|zuHause>there's very certainly a code evolution path from TTD to locomotion (via RCT)
12:43<supermop_>in 2013 he bought the TT name
12:44<supermop_>and re released updated locomotion with the TT name
12:44<@Alberth>afaik he never sold the lomo name, as selling the TT name was a mistake
12:45<supermop_>Alberth: yeah
12:45<Wolf01><li_the_elfin> well rollercoatser is in gog lol <- but it's Atari which put that in it, like Disney with Star Wars
12:45<Wolf01>*LucasArts games
12:46<supermop_>CS would likely have to sue Atari if Atari gave the TTD rights to OpenTTD for free
12:46<li_the_elfin>it is recentely they have put them in gog I think about 4 months
12:47<Wolf01>What if they'll put TTDlx on GoG?
12:47<li_the_elfin>lol
12:48<Wolf01>They *should* have the rights to do it, more than OTTD to be on GoG
12:48<li_the_elfin>i think thats a forbidden question
12:49<li_the_elfin>well ott is beter then ttd much biger maps
12:49<li_the_elfin>most great fans of ttf are here
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12:49<Eddi|zuHause>Wolf01: but can they actually put TTD on GOG if they sold the TT name?
12:49<li_the_elfin>maybe under another name
12:50<Eddi|zuHause>uhm, changing that name inside the game code probably costs more than they will ever earn on GOG
12:50<Wolf01>I bet they don't even have the code to make the change
12:51<li_the_elfin>i have an original copy of tt and ttd if they need lol I provided them a copy of my original lords of the realm gold edition and they used it
12:51<supermop_>Eddi|zuHause: they may have just licensed the name, or sold it for mobile
12:52<Wolf01>li_the_elfin, it's not the compiled copy they need, but the source code
12:52<li_the_elfin>well the cd version I mean not the disk version lol
12:52<Wolf01>I have the cd version too
12:52<li_the_elfin>i think gog use the compiled version in dos box mode
12:52<supermop_>i only had tto
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12:52<Eddi|zuHause>i had TTO and the world editor expansion
12:53<li_the_elfin>and you have 2 versions the windows and dos version lol
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12:53<li_the_elfin>the original in cd is not easy to find
12:54<li_the_elfin>i mean ott
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12:55<li_the_elfin>ok see you all : )
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12:57<Milek7_>atari still exists?
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13:01<Wolf01>Kwaak
13:03<frosch123>hoi
13:06<frosch123>Wolf01: i have never seen "kwaak", it's "quak"
13:08<Wolf01>Apparently we have used the wrong cry all the time -> http://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/ad7NLvZ_460s.jpg
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13:09<@Alberth>german kwaak comes close :)
13:10<Wolf01>BTW, pizza
13:10<@Alberth>\o/
13:10<@Alberth>enjoy :)
13:15<__ln__>19:11 < Eddi|zuHause> the person who did this reverse engineering claims it was legal according to the law in his country <--- while ludde may have believed so, and even if reverse engineering per se is legal, it certainly isn't legal to create a 1:1 clone of something especially when utilizing the reverse engineered code.
13:21<frosch123>Wolf01: judging from google results i would claim that "kwaak" is dutch
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13:22<frosch123>though i would give albert's judgement a precedence there :p
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13:34<@Alberth>indeed, it looks very Dutch :)
13:34<@Alberth>but Dutch and German are quite close
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14:08<andythenorth>o/
14:09<andythenorth>interesting that the bouy/dock idea derailed into ‘airport lights plz'
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14:10<supermop_>you're welcome
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14:40<supermop_>is sam on bananas yet andy?
14:41<andythenorth>nope
14:41<andythenorth>it’s really very sketchy
14:41<andythenorth>no ship has all 8 angles drawn yet
14:41<andythenorth>it’s on bundles server, and the gameplay works
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14:55<Wolf01>http://imgur.com/gQhoEmH holy fuck G2A is really like the windows firewall
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14:56<Wolf01>TL;DR 1) you add the key (marked as active), anyone can buy it, 2) then it gets "verified" (marked as verified) or rejected, nobody can buy it, 3) you add the same key again -> again active and sellable
14:58<Wolf01>o/ andy
14:59<Wolf01><frosch123> Wolf01: judging from google results i would claim that "kwaak" is dutch; <Alberth> but Dutch and German are quite close <- let's use quak as we always did :P
15:03<__ln__>what's G2A?
15:03<Wolf01>Some scam site which resell most pirate keys for steam
15:03<Wolf01>Like Kinguin, G2play etc
15:04<__ln__>ok
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15:06<Wolf01>They could be good sites, for examples I have loads of keys for games I purchased in bundles, which I already have and that I would like to sell, but I won't use those scam sites for any reason
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15:27<__ln__>didn't even know steam games can be resold
15:28<Wolf01>If you have the keys...
15:28<Wolf01>Not redeemed ones
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15:29<Wolf01>I would like more if steam allows to add games you already own to be gifted
15:29<supermop_>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_191
15:29<supermop_>never heard of this until today
15:30<Wolf01>I've seen a documentary where they investigated about the problem
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15:43<__ln__>i only heard of this yesterday: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl_wXfSwRzM&t=5m29s
15:46<supermop_>i don't need to watch any more 747 crash footgae
15:46<supermop_>footage
15:46<supermop_>have already seen all i ever care to watch
15:47<V453000>is there any way how to save palette image in python?
15:47<V453000>or is the only way photoshop?
15:48<supermop_>python guy just left
15:48<V453000>saw
15:48<frosch123>http://pillow.readthedocs.io/en/3.4.x/reference/ImagePalette.html <- read the docs
15:49<V453000>was trying to but didn't find this :) thanks frosch123
15:49<frosch123>"This module was never well-documented. It hasn’t changed since 2001, though, so it’s probably safe for you to read the source code and puzzle out the internals if you need to." :)
15:50<V453000>sounds like exactly what I am going to do
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16:03<@Alberth>there was a problem in getting the palette iirc
16:03<V453000>I'm not super relying on it atm
16:04<V453000>would just be nice
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16:21<@Alberth>http://effbot.org/imagingbook/imagepalette.htm 3rd entry "Getting the Palette Contents Using Resize/Convert" <-- V453000
16:22<V453000>=D thanks, will definitely try later
16:22<@Alberth>although I can't find the phrase "getpalette is broken" anymore, perhaps it was fixed?
16:22<V453000>XD
16:23<@Alberth>would be nice to check if img.getpalette() gives the same result
16:24<@Alberth>hmm, there is a warning about putpalette, maybe that was it
16:25<@Alberth>much more likely I had that problem instead :)
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17:10<V453000>all your base are belong to us :D I'm able to read the colours now, and calculate their distance from the palette colours
17:10<V453000>next step actually input correct palette values and it can start converting :>
17:17<__ln__>are all the remaining german fighter jets from the early 1940s currently in the US?
17:26<supermop_>im sure some are elsewhere
17:26<supermop_>not sure any are for sale
17:27<supermop_>mig 21 is a better value for money
17:30<supermop_>plenty of those here in US
17:31<__ln__>i've seen them flying, finnish air force used to have migs (too) until mid-90s
17:35<__ln__>are there many fully functioning mig 21s in US?
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18:47<Wolf01>'night
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20:47<supermop>no good <512 heightmaps on bananas
20:48<markasoftware>what makes Openttd fun for you guys?
20:48<markasoftware>in your opinions
20:48<supermop>can title games have a GS?
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21:16<Eddi|zuHause>no
21:17<supermop>i cant get a good looking tropic title game map generated
21:17<supermop>also the ogfx tropic houses leave a bit to be desired
21:17<Eddi|zuHause>you can create it with a GS, but it will get stripped
21:18<Eddi|zuHause>so will any AIs
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23:47-!-Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
23:47<Flygon>It's kinda fun taking IRL locations
23:47<Flygon>And designing your own network
23:47<Flygon>I really gotta finish up that 4096*4096 Australia map I started
23:47<Flygon>I mean, worst to worst, I go "Screw most waterways" because AU doesn't really have many inland waterways of note anywya
23:48<Flygon>Just kind of annoying because Australia's a diverse enough continent to warrant using all three OTTD climates in one map
23:48<Flygon>Toyland doesn't count
---Logclosed Fri Feb 03 00:00:29 2017