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#openttd IRC Logs for 2017-02-06

---Logopened Mon Feb 06 00:00:33 2017
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02:57<V453000>yeah I realized it at night when sleeping Eddi :D was missing alpha there
02:57<V453000>so it's cr, cg, cb, ca
02:57<V453000>:) now it runs
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04:07<Wolf01>o/
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05:31<V453000>mornyn
05:31<V453000>so with Alberth's optimizations and on work CPU, I got from 90 minutes to 10 minutes :D :D :D
05:32<V453000>didn't even try to use the better pixel picker functions yet
05:32<V453000>or PyCUDA shiz
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05:40<V453000>best part is, I actually feel like the 32bpp looks uglier than the converted 8bpp XD
05:40<V453000>which is just insane
05:43<dihedral>hello
05:45<V453000>yo
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07:48<Wolf01>https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aRmgR12_460s.jpg lol'd
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14:28<andythenorth>o/
14:31<@Alberth>o/
14:31<frosch123>moo
14:35<Wolf01>o/
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14:47<andythenorth>wow
14:47<andythenorth>lots of activity :)
14:47<@Alberth>:)
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14:52<LordAro>"activity" == "oftc asplode"
14:53<Wolf01>Wtf... is impossible to connect to a rcon server via putty
14:55-!-mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
14:55-!-mode/#openttd [+v orudge`] by ChanServ
14:55-!-mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ
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14:59<Wolf01>Bah, they even want money for the dedicated client
15:04<andythenorth>how would it be if we had a bleeding edge, ‘things will break’ ottd fork?
15:04<andythenorth>like a patchpack? Or like something else?
15:04<Wolf01>Isn't that trunk?
15:04<andythenorth>nah, trunk there is some real effort put into stability, imho
15:06<andythenorth>relative to team size and general open source attitudes, engineering standards are quite high for ottd
15:07<frosch123>we already have plenty of patchpacks
15:08<andythenorth>patchpack’s have low social capital
15:08<andythenorth>patchpacks *
15:08<andythenorth>unless I’m wrong, and your talking to JGR and Chill and co in back channels :)
15:09<frosch123>chill was here, but only when his pack was history
15:10<frosch123>anyway, patchpacks are not much about talking about code
15:17<Milek7>i don't think there will be ever any new feature in trunk
15:17<andythenorth>I am quite interested in future direction
15:18<andythenorth>one option would be to change approach, and try to attract in new contributors
15:18<andythenorth>another would be to accept it’s mature software, and focus on code quality issues
15:18<andythenorth>or there might be other routes
15:18<Milek7>and bugtracker is basically black hole
15:19<andythenorth>being open source, what will be is what will be, despite any plans or ambitions
15:19<andythenorth>if nobody’s motivated, no work will be done
15:19<andythenorth>but then again, motivation is malleable
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15:20<Milek7>and even bugs aren't fixed
15:20<andythenorth>e.g. although it should strictly be dying completely, Plone actually keeps renewing itself on community + releases https://plone.org/
15:21<Milek7>it seems that current project goal is to make sure it works on new systems/compilers without touching anything
15:22<frosch123>that is not the current goal, that has always been the goal
15:22<frosch123>+just
15:25<andythenorth>I’m curious how we could attract people to work on longevity issues
15:25<Milek7>https://www.openttd.org/en/about
15:25<andythenorth>like SDL 2 or OpenGL or so
15:25<frosch123>the only option to extend the game is to provide add-on interfaces, since no two people would agree on a particular feature
15:25<andythenorth>how is that kind of work interesting to someone?
15:25<Milek7>>It attempts to mimic the original game as closely as possible while extending it with new features.
15:25<frosch123>andythenorth: it becomes interesting when you are affected yourself :)
15:25<andythenorth>scratch own itch :P
15:26<frosch123>people still port it to weird devices, the necessity for sdl2 is just not big enough yet
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15:27<andythenorth>I wonder about infrastructure
15:27<andythenorth>stuff like code reviews, pull requests, have high impedance
15:27<andythenorth>devzone borderline scares me, as it relies on spike’s goodwill to make it work
15:28<frosch123>on devzone all repositories are decentral
15:28<andythenorth>I have been quiet about the idea of moving, because I don’t want to seem like I am knifing devzone
15:28<frosch123>what stops you to go back compiling and uploading stuff manually tomorrow?
15:29<andythenorth>nothing, except I rely on devzone as backup strategy
15:29<andythenorth>i.e. my SSD could die any time
15:29<frosch123>where would you move to?
15:29<frosch123>i mean repository is the least important feature devzone offers
15:29<andythenorth>yes
15:29<frosch123>and i would not know where you would get equivalent stuff like farm and eints
15:30<andythenorth>I have been reluctant to say github, because it will look like a choice about vcs flavour
15:30<andythenorth>and I couldn’t find reliable free hosted mercurial
15:30<andythenorth>bitbucket used to have it, but I can’t find it any more
15:30<frosch123>still, the repository hosting is the least complex thing about devzone (i believe)
15:33<andythenorth>plausible
15:36<andythenorth>frosch123: is there a list of infrastructure anywhere? O_O
15:37*andythenorth was trying to count on fingers, but ran out :)
15:37<frosch123>on devzone or on ottd?
15:37<andythenorth>both :)
15:42<frosch123>https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pc8ux64xd <- i count those
15:44<frosch123>probably missing dozen of small things :)
15:44<andythenorth>newgrf wiki?
15:44<frosch123>that is forums
15:45<frosch123>there are 3 pillars :)
15:45<andythenorth>I did a sanity check: is forums money-raising slower this year?
15:45<andythenorth>by my calculation, it’s actually looking faster
15:45<frosch123>in some year it took till august iirc
15:45<andythenorth>it’s pretty unscientific though, orudge` might know better :)
15:46<andythenorth>I started reading the ottd subreddit a few weeks ago
15:46<andythenorth>it’s not as toxic or mad as I assumed
15:46*andythenorth has a very jaded view of reddit, based mostly on secondhand info
15:46<frosch123>there are only very few people there :)
15:46<andythenorth>probably not a fourth pillar then :)
15:49<frosch123>andythenorth: also, in past years ottd paid like 1/3 of the forums
15:50<andythenorth>really? :)
15:51<frosch123>andythenorth: https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=960996#p960996 <- in 2011 it took till july
15:51<andythenorth>2016 took quite some time
15:52<frosch123>2012-2015 or so, ottd paid a fair share, due to superfluous money
15:52<andythenorth>orudge said traffic is down, but I wonder how actual ottd play is trending?
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15:53<frosch123>no idea, we used to have a statistics page, but it broken for some time :)
15:54<andythenorth>ha
15:54<andythenorth>eh, while I was looking for Dalestan flames
15:54<andythenorth>I read quite a few old threads
15:54<__ln__>22:04 < andythenorth> how would it be if we had a bleeding edge, ‘things will break’ ottd fork? <--- indeed a fork where the doctrine of maintaining compatibility with old savegames forever was dropped would attract new contributions
15:54<andythenorth>the golden age in the past, wasn’t quite so golden
15:55<andythenorth>lots of drama about relatively insignificant things
15:55<frosch123>oh yes, the forums are definitely a nicer place these times
15:55<andythenorth>less interesting though eh :)
15:55<andythenorth>nobody is learning much about open source or engineering
15:55<andythenorth>even here is nice
15:56<andythenorth>first time I came in here I got trounced by fonso for asking dumb questions about cdist
15:56<andythenorth>now we’re polite :P
15:57<supermop>for any openttd related topics
16:00<andythenorth>__ln__: how do you know that would attract contributors? o_O
16:04<@orudge`>andythenorth: It would appear to be a bit faster this year, but there have been a couple of larger donations. Traffic is down a little in terms of number of hits, but in terms of bandwidth is as high as it's ever been - lots more large files and so on I guess :)
16:04<andythenorth>interesting thanks :)
16:05<supermop>sounds like v's fault
16:05<__ln__>andythenorth: i can foresee the future.
16:05<andythenorth>neat
16:06<andythenorth>super useful also
16:06<Wolf01>:D
16:06<__ln__>indeed. i just don't use the skill for gambling because it would be immoral.
16:06<andythenorth>should I rebuild the openttd website? o_O
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16:08<frosch123>someone (tm) wanted to rebuild the bananas website
16:08<frosch123>another (tm) wanted to rebuild the compile farm :)
16:09<frosch123>the master server is pure legacy, but it works
16:09<andythenorth>$someone has a habit of starting too many projects
16:10<__ln__>how many jigobytes of traffic per month is there on the forums?
16:10<V453000>a factorio mofo convinced me to use some CIE colour wtf shit :D
16:10<V453000>venturing forth
16:10<andythenorth>V453000: can you make sense plz :)
16:11<andythenorth>what did you say?
16:11<V453000>CIE
16:11<andythenorth>Irish Railways?
16:11<V453000>is some math shit for comparing colours
16:11<andythenorth>ha
16:11<V453000>more speficically CIEDE2000
16:11<frosch123>i always do hsv, is cie similar?
16:11<V453000>http://www.ece.rochester.edu/~gsharma/ciede2000/ciede2000noteCRNA.pdf
16:11<andythenorth>neat
16:11<V453000>he says that this is way better frosch123
16:11<V453000>but other guy was suggesting HSV too
16:11<andythenorth>that is cool
16:12<V453000>problem is I have to convert image to LAB first, and then use this
16:12<V453000>there are many versions of CIE conversions but this one is said to be ok
16:12<V453000>BUT
16:12<V453000>even with my current converter it's giving pretty good results
16:12<andythenorth>V453000 has stopped pretending he has a swear filter
16:12<andythenorth>my 7 year old reads this channel over my shoulder :P
16:12<andythenorth>I have to scroll quick when v is here :)
16:13<V453000>in fact, in many of the cases I like the 8bpp converted image so much that I am even considering leaving 32bpp out XD
16:13<V453000>just the EZ is good enough
16:13<V453000>let's see what the CIE thing does
16:14<andythenorth>ach
16:14*andythenorth off on a tangent
16:14<V453000>another minor idea I was told is to use the current, but convert the colours to linear space
16:14<V453000>whatever that means, just ^2 some things
16:14<andythenorth>thing is, we could just make some bolder statements about OpenTTD
16:15<andythenorth>compare http://getbootstrap.com/ to https://www.openttd.org/
16:15<V453000><b> ?
16:15<V453000>xd omfg
16:15<andythenorth>we could just say fuck it, it’s retro, it’s pixels, and it’s not super-realism
16:15<andythenorth>also it’s open source, it’s open for contributions, and it works on bazillions of platforms
16:15<V453000>XD
16:16<andythenorth>we could also say, it’s pretty much the most successful open source game, ever
16:16<andythenorth>as far as we know
16:16<V453000>quite likely yeah
16:18<andythenorth>could say there’s stable releases for multiplayer reliability, which get 1 or 2 features a year, and lots of translation updates
16:18<frosch123>andythenorth: battle for wesnoth is more popular :)
16:19<andythenorth>the art of this kind of marketing is not to look for evidence :)
16:19<andythenorth>BoW is not more popular with me :P
16:19<andythenorth>probably other things like Rigs of Rods and similar too
16:19<andythenorth>but eh
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16:20<frosch123>V453000: i guess the problem with hsv is that it has this huge arc of blue and a very small arc of red-orange-yellow-green
16:20<V453000>honestly I didn't do super research
16:21<V453000>but my evenly-distributed-cube works fine-ish, just want to give a shot to the CIEDE2000 to see how much better can it get
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16:22<andythenorth>V453000: pictures? o_O
16:22<V453000>sec
16:22<V453000>not sure if haz atm
16:22<V453000>but will check
16:23<V453000>haz
16:23<V453000>need to crop
16:25<V453000>https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/20419525/BRIX/BRIDGES__8bpp_converter-v7.png
16:25<V453000>special attention to the edges :)
16:25<andythenorth>left and right are?
16:25<V453000>can't you tell? :D
16:26<andythenorth>I can assume :)
16:26<andythenorth>but assume makes ass out of me :P
16:26<V453000>well left is 32bpp
16:26<V453000>right is after conversion
16:26*andythenorth assumed correct
16:26<andythenorth>honestly I prefer right
16:26<andythenorth>I grew up with jaggy game art
16:26<andythenorth>I distrust smooth game art
16:27<V453000>it looks nicer to me as well
16:27<V453000>in some cases it's a bit e
16:27<V453000>eh
16:27<andythenorth>basic uncanny valley issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley
16:27<V453000>but will see
16:27<frosch123>yeah, the edges are meh
16:27<andythenorth>edges are meh on white
16:27<V453000>:D
16:27<andythenorth>put it over actual background, you might find edges help
16:28<frosch123>maybe
16:28<V453000>exactly
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16:28<frosch123>anyway, what about the alpha channel?
16:28<frosch123>are you dropping that one, or keeping?
16:28<V453000>what do you mean?
16:28<V453000>that it should be 0,0,1,1?
16:28<V453000>or how do I handle it?
16:29<frosch123>real 8bpp graphics have no alpha channel, only pure transparency and pure opaqueness
16:29<frosch123>you could use the palette colours but still use alpha at the edges
16:29<V453000>yes
16:29<V453000>the image on the right has only 0 or 1 alpha
16:29<V453000>right
16:29<V453000>that's another thing I was considering yes
16:29<V453000>but having big filesizes for rgba just because of alpha edges sounds like a big thing
16:30<V453000>if palette colours then full 8bpp
16:30<frosch123>i do not quite remember whether we implented palette+alpha in nml
16:30<frosch123>but grf supports it
16:30<V453000>hm
16:30<V453000>well this is replace only
16:31<V453000>does that make a limitation?
16:31<V453000>aka base set shiz
16:31<andythenorth>V453000: there is a phenomemon with no name, where artefacts seem nicer because they feel like a real person made it
16:31<andythenorth>you have managed to automate that result :P
16:31<frosch123>well, ground tiles should not leave semi-transparent holes :)
16:31<V453000>andythenorth: the edges are actually not artefacts, they are a result of totally purposeful function
16:31<frosch123>i think ground tiles are generally easier without alpha
16:31<andythenorth>I mean artefacts = objects, pictures, etc :)
16:31<V453000>normally I could just discard the alpha and keep the colour
16:31<V453000>ah
16:32<V453000>frosch123: I already postproduce ground tiles to never have alpha
16:32<V453000>that's fine
16:32<andythenorth>but purposeful is almost same idea tvh
16:33<V453000>idk andythenorth, some artefacts are clear that it's done by a dumb computer
16:33<V453000>or a drunk super artist who feels like it's his "expression" which is dumb
16:34<andythenorth>ha
16:35<andythenorth>wow, who are the Win 95 or Solaris maintainers? o_O https://www.openttd.org/en/about
16:36<frosch123>the win95 farm still runs
16:37<frosch123>bsd stuff has lots of ifdefs in ottd, and afaik still compiles
16:37<frosch123>i think there was one solaris guy here in the past 5 years :p
16:38<__ln__>who?
16:40<frosch123>MagisterQuis wrote in chat in 2014 that he/she compile openttd on solaris in 2008
16:41<__ln__>that's stretching the concept of 'the past 5 years'
16:42<Milek7>>__ln__ indeed a fork where the doctrine of maintaining compatibility with old savegames forever was dropped would attract new contributions
16:42<Milek7>it doesn't looks like there is problem with contributions, rather with absolute zero possiblity of changing something in trunk
16:45<andythenorth>is this against NRT? /me can’t tell :) https://bugs.openttd.org/task/6538
16:45<__ln__>Milek7: and due to the zero possibility (which people realize), many don't even bother
16:46<andythenorth>it’s not zero :) https://git.openttd.org/?p=trunk.git;a=shortlog
16:47<andythenorth>loads of changes there ;)
16:47<frosch123>andythenorth: the chance is zero for changes that only address a single user group
16:48<frosch123>like people who want to remove hills and only play on flat maps :p
16:48<frosch123>imho they should play factorio
16:48<frosch123>btw. factorio lacks hills
16:49<frosch123>it serverly affects replayability for me
16:49<frosch123>andythenorth: it's not against nrt, it's a svn diff for some reason
16:49<V453000>HOLY F
16:49<Milek7>and like these people who reads documentation
16:49<frosch123>possibly the code was changed in nrt
16:50<V453000>I just created 8bpp in photoshop
16:50<V453000>it's using exactly the same formula as I do XD
16:50<Milek7>and wonder why GSTile.GetTownAuthority don't get town authority at all
16:50<V453000>at least it seems that way
16:50<V453000>the colours are precisely the same from what I can tell
16:50<andythenorth>V453000: there’s only so many ways to skin the cat
16:50<Milek7>but i think documentation bugs only affects single user group
16:50<V453000>no andythenorth
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16:50<V453000>there's insane amount of skins of cat in this case
16:50<V453000>like the CIE thing
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16:50<andythenorth>if you try enough, you’ll converge on the one photoshop uses ;)
16:50<V453000>I expected photoshop to use something very fancy
16:51<andythenorth>CIE _is_ fancy :P
16:51<V453000>well yeah sure
16:51<V453000>but photoshop only uses the RGB cube distance comparison
16:51<V453000>which is very primitive
16:51<andythenorth>it’s all just words :)
16:51<V453000>eh not really
16:52<andythenorth>Wolf01: 2017 2H technic: “worst thing ever ever” or “fine” ?
16:52<Wolf01>2H?
16:52<andythenorth>2nd half
16:52<andythenorth>of year
16:53<frosch123>V453000: what do you say? photoshop uses the cube distance to get the same result as your cie method?
16:53<frosch123>that sounds weird to me
16:53<V453000>no
16:54<V453000>photoshop uses cube distance to get same result as my cube distance
16:54<V453000>'s all
16:54<V453000>I am surprised it isn't using something super perception based and whatnot
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16:56<frosch123>night
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16:56<andythenorth>also
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23:45-!-Supercheese is "Supercheese" on #openttd #openttdcoop.devzone +#openttd.dev
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---Logclosed Tue Feb 07 00:00:34 2017